The problem is that the debt is legitimate, irrespective of what people say on the Internet. I am not saying that the debt should be legitimate, I don’t think it should be personally, but it’s current legitimacy is fact, not opinion. The only way the debt would not be legitimate is if a legal case is put forward and won. This could well happen, as we’re all aware. But until that happens, the debt does not remain in some “is it / isn’t it” state; it is legitimate until proven otherwise, and someone must go out and prove this, via the official route. Of course, once the debt is carried by a bond, the question is academic; we’re not longer arguing about legitimacy, we’ll only be debating on renaming on a undisputed agreement ( to issue and honour a long term bond ). It will be impossible to argue that the bond itself is not legitimate.

haa haa … I think we all feel the same Pierce …
I am sure our children and their children will be delighted that we have put private investor debt onto their shoulders… Kenny and his fellow Government ministers and party members are going to try and sell this as a great achievement…. but in reality, they have saddled future generations with a debt that doesn’t belong to them.
I am sure someone will take a case to the courts on this. I dont see how it could be either morally or legally the right thing to do.

Cal, we almost never agree but I think the peoples voices are not being represented here. I think the dail should be dissolved. Time for an election, no more of this campaign in poetry and govern in prose fiasco.

Credit system it is a most incredible thing people invented! Time machine. Magic tool that helps steal money from even future generations. What’s a shame.

Cal
You’re beginning to sound like one of those old phonographs where the needle gets stuck in the groove! Three years ago the Sovereign State of Ireland issued a Promissory Note to its Partner Nations and in my language that amounts to an undertaking or at a simplistic level an undertaking that had to be implemented.
You and your Sinn Fein ilk don’t believe in Sovereign Undertakings or Fiduciary Responsibility or even integrity.
The scramble last night to try and understand the meaning if the proposed legislation was an embarrassment and proved conclusively that the Extreme Left are simply incompetent at an economic level. Worse they would vote down actions that would protect the State because they might obtain short term electoral advantage.

Richard, are you just out of the Dail bar again?

Extend the mortgages out to fifty years , sounds reasonable , your children can pay your mortgage as well as this debt, sounds like a Fine Gael plan

Dave, only if you ignore the 8% coupon value on the 30 billion. Apples and oranges. Do you know what an NPV is? Well, when you’ve figured it out, calculate the NPV on a 30 billion debt repaid at 8% over 10 years, with a 30 billion debt at 3% over 40 years. Now if you’d prefer the first, you are financially illiterate. This is a massive debt write down in NPV terms, but I wouldn’t expect the average Outraged journal troll to know or care about that. So long a they can whine.

Jargon, jargon, jargon, but no counter explanation to what I’ve claimed.

Dave
I think he basically said you were thick!

2 questions to help you figure this out. Which would you prefer to have in your pocket? €100 today, or €100 in 40 years time. Which would you prefer, a fixed interest account bearing 8% or one bearing 3%.

Now if you think the term NPV is jargon, then frankly your confident statements about this being a worse deal than the current situation is fairly laughable.

You’re comparing apples with oranges. To compare apples with apples, you need to know the NPV of the alternatives.

But sure, don’t let anyone stop you from an ould rant agin the govermint.

The disadvantage of NPV is its based on estimated future cash flows of the project and estimates may be far from actual results, ie we only get a better deal if we start another Celtic tiger but if we could do that we wouldn’t have needed the bailout. Take your head out of ass and come into the real world with the rest of us because theory and practical are very far apart as all the economist who got it wrong will admit now its too late!

Here in my ass, the cash flows to calculate NPV are entirely predictable. The repayment amounts, date and interest are all entirely predictable. What is not as predictable is the inflation rate you use as a discount rate, but since you need to use the same discount rate for both scenarios it doesn’t make a difference. It has nothing to do with government cash flows, but I guess financial modelling only exists in my ass now, and the red thumbs who live in the real world have made up their own models where they would prefer the situation yesterday to the situation today.

Ok so you saying cash flows are predictable hummm why do business fail through cash flow problems, why do countries run short of money, I can tell you why because there not fully predictable, forget the maths google nvp advantages and disadvantages instead of regurgitating something you heard and don’t fully understand trying to sound more educated then you are and comment again on what I said earlier, you’ll hear a big pop when your head comes out.

Haha! Another con. The clowns are actually celebrating a deal that nearly doubles the debt. The world’s gone mad. Feb 7th 2013. A date that will live in infamy. Time to pack the case for the last time.

Doubles?

Its a good deal. €28 billion private debt, is now a €60+ billion sovereign debt! Win, eh, win! Odious debt.

Rodrigo
I think you are somewhat challenged …at least as far as simple maths ( or sums ) are concerned. The Irish sovereign debt remains the same as yesterday but the cost of repaying it is dramatically reduced and even further so when long term inflation erodes its value over the lifetime of the Bond.
If I recall correctly you and your Leftie gang were saying for a long time that this Government were lying and there would be no deal with the ECB so perhaps you are suffering from some biliary tract dyspepsia at the wonderful news today!
Tomorrow I presume the Government will move on the debt associated with the solvent Banks.

@ Richard Rodgers, that is simply wrong and I suspect that you are deliberately spinning this story.

All that is happening is that the total servicing interest is hugely increased, the debt is converted into bullet proof sovereign debt and this is back ended to a subsequent generation which will be poorer paid than today in circumstances in which most predictions are tending towards deflation than inflation.

It means that a confrontation or show down is avoided at a cost of shifting this burden onto the next generations.

I am over 60 and so this is not a problem for me in a personal sense.

The investigations into the Northern Bank robbery are not yet complete.

U will find this robbery just cost country 50 odd BILLION. That is almost 2500 northern bank raids. And all just as illegal except last nights stroke tidied that little illegality up.

Siobhan
Disgusting language from anyone but particularly a woman. I certainly couldn’t refer to you as lady. Would you not try to express yourself without the lowest form of communication.

Richard, kindly jog on and stop trolling.

Richard , at lest she said it as she sees it

Hopefully my grammer is his ONLY problem!!!

Handout orientated ass! your as vile as the people that have enforced this on the Irish people. Look at this, these are the kinda people against SF, the kind of people who are now trolling through the journal, and go look, personally attacking people. You have show what kinda character you are therefore anything you say anymore should be ignored. To talk about people like that just because they don’t agree with you opinion, you remind me of the drunken antics that I seen last night in the dail! Go away. If you think making an illegal debt legal and passing it on to our kids and doubling it is a good deal you my man are wrong.

Well see John , government have alienated most the public service , things are changing , rebellion is in the air,
It could still be calmed but that won’t be easy now

Nonsense, it reduces our austerity burden by €1bn annually.

They have said austerity will still be, can you a young FGer tell me what benefit the Irish people get from this will they abolish prop tax will they not cut guard etc according to draghi, austerity will still be in full force so in what way will this benefit the ordinary people! IT WON’T

He won’t tell you he will just lie like the lil piglet he is….never vote for FG or FF again!

That €1 bn going to make its way into the real economy David ?

I’m going to be pedantic, apologies in advance.

It’s: “Give what back?”

I’ll throw in another apology for good measure.

what you call heaping someones elses debt on the backs of our children recovery
bizarre to say the least

You are so right Patrick!

So you have no problem doubling a debt that was never ours, private banking debt and handing it over to our kids, great man you are John John

Very much sums up Ireland of today Brilliantly worded also and nice tune

Atari
Well said.

Well said Shane

It wasn’t private banking debt, it was a government backed promissary note. You need to send your email to Bertie Ahern

That’s it o it think about yourself!
Why doesn’t he mention in his speech we will be paying 1billion a year from this year tho?