@ Coddler,

I’m sure you’re cellmate will take your compelling argument into account when you’re playing ‘ Mammies & Daddies’

Paul
The alternative could be called a reconstructive tax to restore our economic sovereignty which was given away by successive Fianna Fail Governmens and let’s not forget their voters who all believed in Magic Economics.

with what, i am broke, lost my job on single parent with one kid,, my mortgage, insurance and elec bill eat that up and family allowance is what we live on , buy food, heat, elec and tv licence,,,,, and dont say i have internet as it was a present for my daughter and this is her pc,,, which i could never afford, got nothing for xmas for her and she knows she wont have for her 18th as we are behind with mortgage and struggling week to week,,, and now they want to tax what they give me,, and dont say get a job,, i have walked the streets, done course,, advertised in papers,, and now on anti depressants,, which i have to skip some months as dont have the money for prescription,, i would go to jail,, 3 meals a day,, heat,,, omg would be like dying and going to heaven at the moment,, i have not given up faith,, i know i will get a job,, worked all my life till 2 years ago,,, but cant wait for fg to get out,, they are heartless to the people of this state,, they look after bad bonds without even asking for a reduction,, if i could afford lottery ticket and dont win will they refund me,, nothing about the bond holders making money when times were good,, but crying now they lost,, they dont need it if one can afford to gamble , gamble they did,, they lost,, tough ,,, but those heartless cows in government are killing us out here,,, if i fall much more behind they will have to give me council house and then pay for me,, that does not make sense, i only have a small house,, with coal as my heat source,, 17 euro a bag,, lol,,, hmmm they may give me a house with oil heaters,,, wohoooo,, why am i paying like a fool,,, is this what our government want everyone in council homes,, seems only way that makes sense,,,, they get a break on taxes,, and i get more poverty,,,

It’s very very very worrying that a 1/4 of the pole are exempt. Homeowners pay for everything everytime! To counteract all your unfair taxes I have cut my weekly spend by 40%. So you will actually have a lower tax take. Time you practiced what you preached! Richard Bruton 2008 on today fm, “increasing taxes in past recessions never worked, it is important to encourage people to spend taxes need to be reduced”

Pretty sure the council don’t run shops!

apparently the council don’t operate shops, I’m glad that was cleared up. they don’t light up my roads, collect my refuse, fix my roads or provide any tangible services within a few miles of my house either

None really. This tax is expected to bring in €500,000,000. The government has cut €700,000,000 out of the local government budgets so the idea that this is funding local services is a fallacy, The troika party could argue that it’s to plug the gap but the real reason for this tax is to make home-owners pay for the gambling debts of a handful of billionaire capitalists.

You could look at it that way Kevin, but there are other reasons. Fianna Fail doubled public spending in a ten year period on the back of taxes on borrowed money. This is money the banks pumped into the economy that they themselves borrowed from abroad. Now that money and the taxes from it have dried up and the consequences are that this year the government will borrow approximately 12 billion to make up the difference. This excludes any borrowings to repay bank debt. This is far from the bank debt of of a handful of billionaire capitalists, the vast majority of our debt is the fault of our own governments and in particular Fianna Fail who thought that the doubling of public spending was a great achievement. Many of the opposition parties are no better for cheering them on during that time.

Well put, Dan!

Dan, I think you need to look at this another way. The services we receive directly will be paid for directly, water, refuse etc. People who have no access to the public system have to pay for their own water so why should those on the public system receive it for no charge?

The local property tax should help to pay for the things we don’t receive directly; library, recycling services, sports facilities, parks, cultural events etc., and also for other things like the grant for the old couple to replace their roof. My own in-laws benefited from such a grant fairly recently. The government is having to borrow 12 billion this year to cover the costs of pay, pensions and services.

Rural Home Owners will be very unjustly treated!
Household Tax …….. for what “local” services?

Rural Home Owners get:-
1. No mains water
2. No public sewage system
3. No street lightning
4. No footpaths
5. No cycle lanes
6. No buses
7. No Dart
8. No Luas
9. No public parks
10. No subsidised theaters

I think you will find that those that are close to the services you have outlined will be paying much more property tax than those with little or no access to those services. Water will be charged for separately thus reducing the unfairness of rural households having to pay for their own water supply.

God forbid that those rural dwellers ever drive into town do do some shopping, or head to the beach with their kids or go for a day out in any major city. those rural dwellers just sit at home and never contribute to anything. And reg is right .. your houses cost less and you will pay less.

Unless you happen to be a TD, Senator or some other highly paid public servant, most people cannot afford to pay this tax. Ordinary Irish people been stretched to the limit by this government, we are struggling to feed and cloth our kids. Why should we struggle even more and pay a tax which Enda Kenny himself said was “morally unjust and unfair…” while corruption is still rampant in Irish County Councils!!? PS… ( they think it’s ‘morally just’ that we turn into a nation of snitches!! )

Michael
Saying that people are unable to pay their taxes is one thing but people saying they will not pay their taxes that have been lawfully imposed is like the bully boy behaviour of Gardai who say as a part of their industrial dispute they will stay at home on the pretense that they’re I’ll and draw their pay dishonestly while doing it.
This reminds me of the 800,000 bogus non resident Bank accounts and the 500,000 people deciding not to pay their Household Charge.
At these numbers we are talking about ingrained Societal dishonesty and immorality.

Perhaps but we learn by example.

ah yes the goverment stooge rogers on here telling us what a great job his party of parasites are doing for the country.

Using that logic Reg, I would have to assume that the government will be reducing the taxes which previously paid for these services so that people don’t accidentally pay for these services twice ! Eh….that would be a no !

Did you miss the bit about the 12 billion deficit Dgar?

So right! Well said! The french go to the streets and riot when there is injustice…and thats what this is…unjust. What do we do? We go and lie down and forget about the battles for sovereignty and independence we fought 80 to 90 years ago. Now the new enemy is a weak-backed government who are too hung up on getting Bailouts so that they, and their ministerial predecessors can lounge around on their secure & bloated pensions. A government BY the people, but AGAINST the people! I’ve never seen a Government do so much to ensure people drop into poverty. Seriously, if they were truly in touch with the bottom to middle tier of the electorate, would they be taxing everything as vehemently as they do? They can’t be in touch, because their salaries & expenses are so disproportionate to their colleagues in Europe and beyond, nevermind all us ordinary Joe Soaps.

Well maybe Fine Gael will win next election then. They won the last by lying to us & telling us fairytales about household tax being morally unjust & unfair !

Karolyn

Not the Government’s concern.

In other words the Government do not care about you.

Hehe carcu, u honestly think I don’t know that! unfortunately I live in the real world ;(

And they’ll never care about you.

It is a tax on the current market value of a house, also if you are in debt there are deferrals.

Brothers and sisters you need to know this…

You were born into “the system” without any say in how it works. You were raised and taught to contribute to the system. You must work exhaustive hours in the system, and you must pay taxes to the system. You must adhere to the rules of the system – most of which relate to property and ownership – or you will be punished by the system. By design, the system will deliver abundance only to a select few, and many others will go hungry. But if you don’t like it, you cannot leave the system. The system “owns” everything, everyone and everywhere.

Until now, you had one option: play along. It’s like living in a casino with no exit. And the house always wins.

http://wakeup-world.com/2013/02/18/all-corporations-banks-and-governments-lawfully-foreclosed-by-oppt/

Sounds like the matrix, I think ill take the red pill!

Seamus
You’re not very bright if you believe that any future Government will abandon such a lucrative piece of income!

Seamus,

CAPTA , the Campaign Against Property Tax and Austerity (formerly the anti Household tax campaign) is organising the fight against this unjust tax and the austerity program generally being imposed on the Irish people to pay for the gambling losses of the financial speculators. Please go along to your local meetings, get involved and stand and fight with us.

http://nohouseholdtax.org/

well said Seamus

I agree.

However, it’s perfectly reasonable to tax for the services that are provided by the locality. The tax is charged whether you live in the home or not, so it’s not a tax on living.

No it isn’t, you have the right to free library services, street lights, streat cleaning etc, this iw what we now have to pay the property tax for.

But those services are already paid for by already existent taxes and have been for years.. if we pay more directly to councils they would want to be pulling their sock up a hell of a lot higher than they have them..

Declan
Someone has to pay for “free” services.

What services Ronan?

I live in a rural area, no lights, I pay road tax for the roads, I have paid to have water installed in my home and again when upgraded – I may now have to pay a water charge on the group water scheme. We get a little pile of grit in the winter. Leitrim council claimed in a headline in the local paper that they could not meet salaries because people did not pay the €100 tax yet have a fleet of brand new Vans!! If the council did not exist, and the money saved was used by the locals to pay off debt and start businesses, buy local goods and services that would be better and the removal of planning permission from the little Hitler’s at the planning dept. would really boost the county. So to pay these clowns €250 to live in my little castle pi**es me off. 33 days off a year, and I have to pay for my own rubbish collection. By paying this I get absolutely no additional benefit, but the government may have more to pay off the banksters debts which for some unknown reason has been passed on to the taxpayers without a referendum!

Michael Dean i agree with you 100%.
yourself as a rural dweller and i as an urban dweller will not see anything extra for this so-call tax it is theft not tax.

- When you pay property tax you then get access to services.
- Road tax is to maintain the road, property tax is to clean the road

Declan surely your having a laugh ,
I,m 11 years in my house and not once has the streets been cleaned ….we the people of living in the estate do it ourselves ,
This is bondholders tax …..paid to local councils who in turn will transfer it to gov , who in turn will pay it to Germany
just like the Phil Hogan tax from 2012………which they can whistle for ,
My account is empty there is no money left to give , deducting it from source will simply mean I will have some other bill that cannot be paid or local shop I cannot use .
FG = EPIC FAIL

They are not taxing people to live in their homes. They are charging you for the cost base related to providing local services. The rate you pay just so happens to be linked to the current market value of your home. It may not be perfect, but do you have an alternative suggestion as to how to fund local services?

what services indeed. dont compare ireland with rest of europe where they have these taxes. the rest of Europe have decent roads and a local council that actually work.

We are not provided with any services by the council. Our road is in an awful state, pay for private bin collection, dug our own well for water as we are not near any services. I understand that it might be reasonable to charge for services provided locally, but we don’t seem to be in receipt of any!

Where is this “right” to free stuff written down exactly? Lights cost money. Street cleaning equipment costs money. Books & buildings cost money. The wages and pensions of those who fix the lights, clean the streets & stack the books cost money. They have never been free. Local councils receiving money from householders for providing local services makes more sense than the current set up

Sucks for those, me included, who paid large stamp duties in lieu of these services, but the going forward it makes more sense.

Sean and others. I never said the tax was being applied equitably. I merely said that it’s not unjust or unfair. Some people should pay more than others, but that doesn’t mean someone should pay nothing.

Anyone looking at the difference between a road in Dublin 4 and a lane in Co Leitrim will see that services are not provided equitably. However, neither are taxes collected equitably.

But no-one could claim that they get zero services. Someone is administering their locality, however badly. Just because your road looks like the lunar surface doesn’t mean someone isn’t in charge. Councils are in charge of non-national routes, so I would suggest you take it up with your local council if your road is wrecked. Hey, you’re going to be funding it now, so why not?

Since the councils are partially centrally funded (your local businesses are subsidizing you since private rates were abolished) a rural county with lower population density does not collect as much tax per km of road, per library, per school, per police station, per whatever other service you can imagine. The ratio of their cost base to their expenditure is therefore harder, so you get less services than is probably needed. In contrast, a densely populated suburb of Dublin might collect far more taxes (and parking fees etc) per km of road etc.

There is a social transfer from the cities to the county areas (not enough, in my opinion) which adds to these services, but unfortunately, without critical population mass, you are not going to be well funded. You can’t increase the service of the half empty buses and trains when no-one will pay for them. Hooking a rural house up to the energy grid costs a lot. Posting a letter to you costs a lot. You can’t have street lights hooked up to rural roads because they’d cost a fortune. There’s a trade off of living rurally, but you’re not getting less money spent per headcount of population, you’re just all too scattered for anyone to benefit personally in the way a household in Galway, Cork, Limerick or Dublin would.

In short, just because the service isn’t on your doorstep doesn’t mean it’s not being provided, it’s just that you’re so spread out that only some people are lucky enough to be close to the services. While your nearest town might not have a pool, one was set up the next town over with the help of state funding. While you might be 10 miles from the school, there’s still school provision according to the teacher/pupil ratio. While your road might look like the grand canyon, some cute hoors the other side of your hill know someone on the council and got theirs resurfaced.

Either through direct funding or central funding, your services are more difficult to provide due to less people locally funding them, and the spread out population

Rónán

I will gladly pay for the services I receive. So let the local authority send me an invoice for the services they provide me with.
Road Tax? I Pay 2 of them, as there is no public transport other than a twice daily service to & from Dublin in the nearest town 4.5km from my home.
Fire fighting? I have to pay for that should I need it, over €500 the last time I looked.
Water? Don’t get that
Sewerage? Don’t get that
Public lighting? Don’t get that
Footpaths? Don’t get that
Refuse? Don’t get that
Road cleaning including clearing snow? Don’t get that
From a purely safety view point I would like road markings, but I don’t get them either.
Would you like me to continue?

If the government want to charge people of local authority services they should provide a list of the services and a price for providing that services. Where people are provided with those services they should pay for them, where they don’t get them they should not have to pay.

Doing this would incentivise local authorities to provide those services in the first place and ensure that the cost of those services reduces per user as more and more users are provided with the services.

Why should I be forced to pay for public lighting in a town 80km from my home on the far side of the county, or even for a town in another county, when I am not provided with the public lighting myself?

So if, as many are in favour, child benefit is stopped to high earners, you won’t object to the proportion of their tax that goes towards child benefit is refunded to them? After all why should they pay for something they don’t get?

Governments don’t exist to give you personally what you want. Grow up.

No, they don’t.

Thank you

Council have to pay it. 90 euro i think

@Sandra Turner the council = you and me.

That’s right. I was just answering the question!

Ya, screw the low-middle income earner over AGAIN.

Seriously the council have to pay themselves?

People in councils houses have to pay €90.

The reason people in council housing don’t have to pay it is because they don’t own the house, they rent it from the council. If they purchase the house, they are then liable to pay all charges and taxes. Not a perfect system but would you want to pay a property tax on a house you don’t own?

Aoife
YES they will pay as councils across the country have indicated that their rents will go up because the councils themselve,s as landlords have to pay it so its passed on to the tennent,
some councils have indicated rents could go up by about 10-12% as they say the devil is in the detail so i dont think many will escape this theft of their hard earned cash

Andrea, all private renters will pay it, if the cost of keeping the house goes up for the landlord the cost of rent will go up for the tenant..

The council/social housing tenant will not be the liable party – the Council will. It is up to the Council to decide how to offset the cost of all the property tax for all the properties they own. Some councils may decide to levy social/council tenants with an increased rent (of 1 euro per week, for example), and absorb the remaining costs. Other Councils may decide not to levy council/social tenants and make up the costs in other ways.

Isn’t it strange hat a council needs to pay a tax that’s meant for councils.
Only civil servants can think up that sort of bullshit.

Mark that’s how taxes are applied. All PS workers have their wages taxed. Same thing really.

I agree that at some level that’s the same. i guess it’s the same as the state bodies paying VAT:
I know it can’t always be prevented, but in this case it certainly can be.

Referendum on Clawback of the Irish Bank Bailout:-

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/referendum-on-clawback-of-the-irish-bank-bailout

That’s not how tax works, not everything is earmarked nor should it be. If the purpose of you paying tax was to only fund things that directly affect you then there would be no need for taxes we could just let private companies do everything. See how many schools, gardai or fire services we end up with in rural or disadvantaged areas then.

I agree, I think there should be some accountability here. At the very least, there should be some transparency as to where the money has gone each year, in the form of published accounts of council spending. This isn’t for the purpose of me having a buffet approach to taxation, but rather that I can see exactly how much money is wasted on admin, new traffic warden cars and all that rubbish and what portion of taxation goes to services, which are often quite poor.

To clarify my earlier point: these do exist for my local council (Cork City) in the form of yearly financial statements, but they can be quite general in parts.

How do you gauge value for money or even quality service in public expenditure, though?

Ian,
You are being ordered to pay this Home tax because FF initially and now FG and Labour are insisting that the monstrous gambling losses of financial speculators are paid by the Irish people. It’s comforting to know that some of our Home taxes will be going to fund Michael Fingelton’s €28 million pension as he sips his Pina Coladas on a beach somewhere in the Bahamas. He may send us a postcard at some stage to show us how our money is being well spent.

Ciaran i simply want accountability,and to know that my money is not being wasted or given to unsecured bond holders.

Good for you being able to afford such an expensive house!

Banging their staff!!!

Ann

check out what the constitution says

Article 40
1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law. This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

So this would mean according to our Government that everybody is equal unless they own a property that is not designated as exempt.

You would also be hit with a slime charge……..

@ Ted,

Only if you owned your own shell and it wasn’t in an unfinished eh ‘ State’

I only finished off paying for my shell last October now this shit, it’s a joke and if the slime charge is introduced I’m leaving, slowly..

They are not offers, this has nothing to do with consent or loopholes that you think exist.
Relying on “freeman of the land” leaflets for legal advice is not sensible.

Are you asking our poverty stricken government to spend money on sending you a bill? Tut tut lol you know that ain’t gonna happen.

If you’re talking about that legal declaration that did the rounds on Facebook then I’m afraid you’re wrong. Firstly it was referencing the law code in the US and even if we were in the US it was still wrong. Social media chain mail is generally not a reliable source of legal advice.

Mark. did you wait for a bill to come before you got your car road tax, or maybe a bill to come through your door before you got your TV licence. The attitude of wont pay till i get a bill will just ensure that when you do finally get a bill or court order it will be substantially higher than if you paid in the first place, While I’m not saying I agree with paying or not paying. Your argument of offers and waiting for bills is pretty silly.

Not true, stop spreading this misinformation

Simon I knew when I bought a car that I had to have motor tax to bring it on the public road. similarily I knew when I bought a TV that I would need a licence if I had a receiver. Had the government said that in future anyone who bought a house would have to sign a contract to say they had a social responsibliity as a house owner to pay for the servies in a community there wouldn’t have been as much fuss. Anyone who then wanted to buy would know their responsibilities. This is a reterospective tax; those who bought had no idea that there would be recurring fines for purchasing legitimately. I may have thought twice about investing in my home and putting on an extension if I then thought i’d be fined every year for it. The reason they didn’t do the ‘from now on’ which would be fairer is of course that it would put people off buying and it’s easier to get money off ‘sitting ducks’ who can’t escape. The reason is money not morals.

Pau if you knew the government were going to introduce the USC after you had already started working, would that have stopped you getting a job? don’t think so. And neither would this charge stopped you putting an extension on your gaff, it also wont stop people buying houses. This is just another tax and charge to our income. governments do all the time all over the world. Only difference with this one is, those who have multiple properties and more expensive ones will pay more.

You know they just deduct their estimate at source from your tax or social welfare right?

Bit of a redundant question. If it is being collected from Revenue at source then the only people who will have a choice whether or not to pay it are those who are self employed. There will not be an easy “out” for this one.

Assume self employed won’t get tax clearance cert if they don’t pay

Laura,i,am self employed and i can assure you revenue will take it from the self employed the same as they take all the other taxes.

A property tax is a normal part of nearly every European country, we need to pay it to fund local government, FF built a house of cards where they got tax revenue from stamp duty and development levy payments. Since the property bubble burst, these sources of income are not available and we need to get the money from somewhere.

it is not ideal that we have to do this in the middle of a recession, but letting the country go bust or borrowing lots of money so our debt becomes more and more unsustainable are not solutions. There are exemptions and deferrals available, so this is the least bad option which we will have to deal with.

correct & right. self employed people need tax clearance for almost everything to do with running their business, so we are the ones that must pay. People should get their facts right before making silly comments.

Moe as i have allways said since it was brought out you do pay O2 tax isnt that called the “carbon tax” because if you use electricity,gas,coal or oil for heating it has a carbon tax on it, petrol or diesel for your car same thing,
even if you dont use any of the above live in a tent heated by solar/wind power and cycle everwhere, just purchase goods as you need them for those goods to get to the shops,markets and supermarkets fuel is used and that extra “carbon tax on fuel is passed on to you&i as consumers.
so as you can see my friend once a tax it dosnt matter what you call it it hits everyone alike unless you can afford an accountant or a “special advisor” and exploit loopholes

Also, here’s part of the reason we are in this mess, FF ignored advice and continued to run our economy into the ground: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2013/0218/1224330166237.html

Declan …….while FG where in opposition what exactly did they do to try stopping this boom ? Nothing they where happy to go along and deep the benefits remember they did not oppose the bank guarantee scam , and last week well they signed sealed and delivered it to Germany ,
as for your argument about every country has a property tax , of course they have , but each person gets an itemised bill every year showing where there tax has gone , like school dinners , school books , refuse collection , road repair, not sure about other countrys but the Uk get free healthcare out of it
value for money ,
What we getting in return …………..nothing because it will all go to Germany

And those who live outside the State. There must be thousands of them, and the Revenue cannot touch them or their income.

Laura,
The Revenue like all the agencies of the state including the Gardai and the courts depend on the compliance of the vast majority of the citizens in order to function. If a large enough segment of population withdraw that consent, then the State cannot enforce its will. This was demonstrated last year when the government abandoned attempts to prosecute anyone who didn’t pay the charge in the face of a massive boycott. In the same way, a mass boycott of the Property tax can make the new draconian powers of the Revenue redundant. They have the powers but they will be unable to use them if large enough numbers of people refuse to co-operate with them. Deductions at source are a recipe for widespread industrial action and further mass civil disobedience and the government and Revenue are well aware of this.

The Household Tax Form from the Revenue is missing these tick boxes.
Be sure to add them in.

———————————— HOUSEHOLD TAX FORM ————————————————-

1. “I agree that my taxes can be confiscated by my TDs and used to pay off the debt of private companies e.g. banks, either directly or indirectly.”

Tick: YES: [ _ ] NO: [ _ ]

2. “I agree that the Irish Revenue Commissioners or its staff or agents can transfer my taxes
to the Irish Exchequer to be used to pay off the debts of private companies e.g. banks,
either directly or indirectly.”

Tick: YES: [ _ ] NO: [ _ ]

Maybe they’ll have to build more prisons for those who can’t or won’t pay. These prisons could be located in area’s like leitrim to create jobs, just like they do in the USA. Property is an indicator of declining long term wealth. There are about 300,000 empty homes in this country – So please! When I look at house prices in Leitrim estate agents it is shocking the fall in values. Renting gives you the freedom to move anytime, homeowners have a very difficult time moving to where the jobs are, and are at the mercy of the banks raising interest rates any time, and forced to pay additional taxes placed on them at a whim. They are told now that there is a waste water inspection tax, water rates, household tax, and the planning dept insisting that I do not plant evergreen trees, that my windows must be longer than wide to give the “Leitrim Look” for the tourists, yet my neighbours who built in the 80′s don’t have this – We work hard to get a house built and then we are landed with the bill to bail out the banksters. The Muppets in power earn to much to be affected by what they do to ordinary folks!

At Michael, I wholeheartedly agree with you.. Green don’t like MY THUMB..

Again with the negative equity thing… Negative equity doesn’t alter the cost of your repayments. And you chose to buy somewhere that came with a management fee (utter robbery).

Massively inflated stamp duty was an awful idea, and is being replaced with a better (not perfect) one. Those of us caught in the the transitional period suffer disproportionally, but no one made us buy property when we did. It’s not called a housing “market” for nothing.

True. I couldnt even demolish my house without permission.

So? Have you seen anything about it in the national media?

You’re only liable for half a year’s tax for 2013, from July onwards.. The legislation hasn’t been passed yet so it’s not law until it is. When it is passed, I’d say you’ll hear about it.

In other countrys property tax covered all services. In this country it covers nothing! and that’s why its an unjust tax on the people. UNJUST!

The tax does not give any additional benefits. It may put your house in jeopardy – No account of your ability to pay is taken into account, just the size of the property you have that may be large because your aunt left it to you or sold you Dublin flat and bought a mansion in Leitrim. This tax is very unfair, and just because other countries do something does not mean Ireland has to – that is a useless argument!!

@Michael, in the UK, people are being deported from London to other Cities around the country.. London housing charges are very high because of greedy landlords.. Gov are charging bedroom tax here in April, meaning if you live in a two bedroom social house on your own, you will have to downsize to a one bedroom to make room for larger families moving in.. Causing a lot of controversy there right now. Strange thing is, they are not enough one bedroom accommodations, they still get charged even while waiting for what could be forever… On the other hand people on benefit or low income jobs do not have to pay any taxes.. They will get it out of them anyway which way..

No it doesn’t, slapstick. I posted links on this the last day. In France, there’s countless other “service” taxes on top of the property tax, like the “street sweeping” tax. You can still think it’s unjust but you can’t fabricate reasons to justify it.

Surely a tax on anyone but me is better than a tax on me.

Thats a fair point. Property is universally regarded to be an indicator of long-term wealth, which is why its preferred to tax it as an “asset.” It tends to be see, especially in time of negative equity, as a liability, but this is a highly distorted view. Alongside the distorted view that somebody who rents is “better” off than a home purchaser on the assumption that the differential is saved/invested. This never happens, so the long term outcome is always that home owners are better off.

I rent, but I’ve no real choice as I contract and so wouldn’t get a mortgage. If I could I’d buy tomorrow. And if I was liable for the tax, I guess I’d prefer to pay it. I once didn’t pay my motor tax and got taken to court, its not an experience I’d like to repeat.

@ Damocles,

With an attitude like that you must be a public servant.

Josh, That’s the attitude everyone has.

Fair taxes are ones which don’t affect me or my wife.

Unfair taxes add to my already massive economic burden.

Ahh yes Damocles all taxpayers are equal but some are ‘ More equal than others’

Agree completely, see my previous post. Ignoring the law is not an option, if you are a citizen of a state where the government has been democratically elected you are bound by the laws that government enacts. You may not like it but it is your civic duty to comply or have we forgotten that duty in this “me fein” society.

The bondholders love you Pierce.

I am a bond holder so I love myself

I’m also a bond holder.. its part of my pension plan I signed up for.

Its not so much an affront as hypocrisy. A lot of the same people are complaining about cutbacks, but are unwilling to contribute more so cutbacks can be avoided. Vicious circle really. Everybody wants more, but nobody wants to pay.

It doesn’t work that way.

I Think Damocles summarised the human condition perfectly above

I have had to house, feed, cloth my own children and also do the same for the children of 40% of men who deserted the mothers of their children. Darwin’s theory’s have been disproved by the welfare system the unproductive thrive and multiply.

You getting a good deal do you think? No actually you are getting shafted, and you don’t even realize it, shocking!

They can deduct at source with their own valuation! This way my valuation is used!

Simon

If you mean the millionaire Irish Tax exiles, they don’t pay, that’s what tax exile means.

Well not quite no. If you own property in the state then you need to pay tax – its not possible to doge it just cos you are non resident.

Simon

A lean on the peoperty so that the tax is paid once the property is sold.

Nikolas,
You don’t need to hazard a guess on the likely boycott figures. We have much better data. Around 700,000 people became political activists last year and refused to pay the Household tax in order to fund the financial speculator bailout. These people were threatened with legal action also and the potential financial penalties were in fact much higher than those under the current legislation. The size of the boycott is likely to rise this year as the number of families who can’t pay increases. The Revenue, like all the agencies of the state including the Gardai and the courts depend on the compliance of the vast majority of the citizens in order to function. If a large enough segment of population withdraw that consent, then the State cannot enforce its will.

They refused too pay the Household Charge, not the Household Tax. Different thing. The charge is legally muddy compared to a tax. Taxes are obligatory unless you are exempt, and not paying tax is a criminal offense. I’m not saying you should pay it or you should stop campaigning that people not pay it, but you need to state the basic fact; by campaigning that people do not pay the tax, rather than campaigning to repeal the tax, you are asking people to become criminals and so open themselves up to criminal prosecution. Don’t hide behind the euphemism of “political activitist”. You have to decide, if you are recommending to people that they don’t pay a tax, if your organization is going to cover their legalö fees when they are brought to court, and you have to very clearly say if your organization will do this or not from the very start. You criticise the government for ot speaking clearly, but you have to do the same.

Will you bring the rest of your self serving friends with you.

You just did.

Dave, the reason you wont bother is because you throw out the same ill informed argument about the property tax in the north every time. DIFFERENT SERVICES.

You are gonna go far in FG.

ADEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYO!

Seems to be a lot of people exempt from paying it, don’t worry I presume us fools are picking up your tab………

I don’t agree with most of what Mr. Higgins says, but can the people who abuse him constantly please stop?

Some posters are getting to carried away on this. Debate rather than insult.

FG lies again i’m not commenting except this one comment. What i ment was the comment was not a comment it was to be taken as a stance of no comment on this last comment.

@ billie. No.

I see no abuse here.
A commenter leaving a comment in which they claim that they have no comment will always get a reaction.
Btw lots of people think FG suck.
That’s their right.

@Baxter – Yes.

Your point becomes null and void when you insult your opposition. The points you make should be strong enough to win a debate. The second you insult your opponent, they win.

@ Jim

The abusive comments looks to have been deleted.

^^^^^
Man love for David Higgins, g’wan Dave ya have yourself a keeper with billie. He’ll keep you safe from an online forum. Let us know when the stags on….Bratislava the bomb btw :)

I am one of those exempt because I just bought a house others are except cause the live in rented accommodation or live in ghost estates. As far as I am concerned no one should have to pay it at all for the mistakes of the bankers politicians and developers but resent the exempt is unfair and divisive let’s fight this unfair tax together

Don’t count on Bratislava, I’ve been looking into Prague more.

You just left a comment.
Higgins has a black dog

what about all the people who paid stamp duty.

Shane, that money has been spent.

“Property Tax” My You Know What!!
More like Seanie’s and Finger’s gambling Tab Tax!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51-Jfh6ADH0

You mean the infirm, destitute, and people whose houses are collapsing around them, I will stand by them.

No, it’s a house tax.
A circus or fair will be exempt.

“It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” Enda Kenny, 1994

Enda Kennys going to regret saying those words. His party won’t get a second re-election (they never have before) this is history repeating its self. Children’s shoe tax 1980s and an immoral property tax 2010s
It’s no wonder they are consistently diving in the polls and FF are gaining.

In fact it was the best political move for FF, letting FG get in by default giving them just enough rope to tie them selves in knots…….will be another 16+ years till FG get in again.

Shame really because I like the fact that they take every single red cent from my fluff filled pockets to give to bondies and banker mates. Pints on Enda when he gets his golden payoff.

You’re going to be disappointed when FF get in again and don’t repeal the tax.

It’s here to stay- start dealing with that everyone can get on with their lives.

That’s exactly the point. The revenue are well trained in collecting taxes, they’ll get their money no matter what.

It’s unfair and unjust but right now we don’t have much choice.

We just need to remember the parties that are involved FG, Labour and FF who put us in this situation and NOT vote for them in the next election.

There are new parties fighting for the Irish people that could do with our support. Direct Democracy Ireland for one, I’m going to take a chance with them what have I got to loose!

https://www.facebook.com/directdemocracyireland

Nothing could be worst that FG and FF at this stage. We aren’t a 100 year old as a country and they’ve managed to bankrupt us and do some of the most corrupt governments in the world.

(waiting for all the tum downs on this one!)

We should also remember that SF introduced a £1,000 property tax in the north,

It wasn’t Labour who put us in this position. Labour, albeit in an after the horse had bolted, against the Anglo guarantee.

The property tax isn’t a bad idea but my problem is that it is going straight into the Local Government Fund rather than staying in the area it was collected in. It would have more credibility if it was used for services directly in the locality and there was more accountability through councillors for these services as part of an overall reform package.

Well said jim if I could thumbs that by 10000000 I would.

Brenda

If 200K people don’t pay Revenue will have to take 200K people to court. That is how you stop this. Fight them all the way. Cause the whole system to break down.

Enda Kenny is a proven liar and therefore in my eyes not suitable to hold public office, let alone a teaching job, so fight it on that point. In my eyes respect is earned not gained by obtaining public office by proclaiming falsehoods.

Carcu

I reckon 10 well publicised successful prosecutions will make the vast majority of your 200K fold, like a cheap card table.

Branda.. How are you going to get revenue to not take the monies out of 200k pay packets, If you hadn’t noticed revenue prefer to take monies at source, its saves them a lot of hassle.

Damocles,

It was the government who folded in the face of the mass Household tax boycott last year and dropped any planned prosecutions. The County Councils had the legal authority to take people to court over non payment of the Household tax. There they faced fines of €2500 and penalties of €100 per day if they failed to register for the tax. None of this occurred and the threats and bluster from the authorities evaporated because the mass boycott created a political time bomb ticking away in Phil Hogan’s lap. The government eventually conceded defeat when they abandoned the idea of court cases and passed the parcel to the Revenue.
In the same way, a mass boycott of the Property tax can make the new draconian powers of the Revenue redundant. They have the powers but they will be unable to use them if large enough numbers of people refuse to co-operate with them. Deductions at source are a recipe for widespread industrial action and further mass civil disobedience and the government and Revenue are well aware of this.

Coddler, no they palmed the whole thing off on the Revenue. They will tag it on any other payments,

Damocles

To fold is exactly what lying Enda and his bully boy Phil want their subjects to do.

The only reason we are only paying 1/2 the tax this year is that the Ireland holds the EU Presidency in the first part of the year.

Lying Enda & bully boy Phil do not want our European neighbours seeing their Government conducting mass prosecutions against their own citizens while holding the EU Presidency?

Please be aware I used the term “their Government”, as judging public opinion polls of yesterday the majority of the citizens of Ireland believe the current Government are representing them any longer.

Correction

the current Government are NOT representing them any longer.

“Deductions at source are a recipe for widespread industrial action and further mass civil disobedience”

No, they’re a recipe for people complaining abou things on the internet.

what drugs are you on ffs

Pat, you think you are law biding and you are doing this for the common good yet you fail to see how morally wrong and unjust this tax is, You also do not open your eyes to the fact that the bunch of criminals (our government) have no disregard to the fundemantal laws of Ireland our constitution. You are following this draconian law without question which makes you a hypocrite and someone that has no respect for the law.

I will not follow a law that is unjust, morally wrong & unfair especially when it is set by a totalitarian government!!

Well done to the people fighting this I admirer you and you will make the people who fought for our country proud!!