Fair play, GG. You probably helped save that girls life.

Thanks Kevin, but we both just hoped she got out of that gangs clutches

Fair Play … Great to see people getting involved and helping others … That said bit of a leap to make the connection with prostitution – could be drugs or any other type of illegal thing

Well done to you and your wife, Gaius.

Do u mind me asking, were they eastern European?

The government should take a look at how Australia copes with this trade. They even have a union and its members are regularly checked by the health authorities. That’s forward thinking.

Yeah, forward thinking if you’re a man

I don’t think that’s forward thinking only if you are a man. Especially considering the story you told below.

Why not take the profession out of the hands of criminals and give the power back to the women.

In Australia it’s tightly regulated brothels away from schools, churches etc and the women are checked and given support as well shown how to be safe.

As said above, the industry is not going to go away so why not take the head out of the sand and deal with it?

When can’t get rid of the criminal element when it’s illegal, how on earth will we be able to get rid of it when it’s legal? Take a look at Holland, the pimps use the legal girls as a front and make their real money off illegal prostitution.

And, yes, pimping is illegal in Holland, but gee, when did illegality ever stop it?

Tax it, regulate it and take a proportion of the tax revenue from it to make available to those that want break free of the industry and get back into education etc.

I’ve just completed a Masters in Arts (Politics) thesis on this issue. Suffice it to say that the facts work out very differently from the narrative; the difference between what SHOULD happen and what HAS happened. I interviewed the Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking in Human Beings as part of the work.

If we, as a society, are truly interested in these issues, and in the people who fall victim to them, we cannot be dependent on simple narratives. The outcomes are often counter intuitive, largely because, plausible though they may be, they fail to recognise the dynamics of the problem (money, demand, age and migratory status being some key ones).

There are many words I could offer to caution against legalisation or against decriminalisation. I think these short YouTube videos say much of it:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=y-a8dAHDQoo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dy-a8dAHDQoo

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=O3Xwbum6Ko0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DO3Xwbum6Ko0

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-eugrPB7SsE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-eugrPB7SsE

Emm … Look at all of the current legal businesses out there … That’s how you keep It legal. When things are hidden and illegal it’s much harder to regulate that when they are legal and in the open

That’s merely to mistake cause and effect. How do you regulate sex? That is after all the proposal of those who wish to regulate prostitution. The realisation dawns when te facts, as evidenced in Holland and elsewhere, is that you can only regulate what you can control (Marx might refer to the means of production).

http://www.hotline.org.il/english/pdf/The_Legalization_Of_Prostitution_English.pdf Different countries have
introduced widely divergent arrangements or systems of legalization
reflecting diverse approaches to prostitution.Legalization has been shown to
provide only limited protection for women, and generally only for those
women who choose to work in prostitution of their own free will. it may be assumed that such a process of legalization will
concentrate on securing profit for the state and improving its supervisory
powers, rather than on protecting the rights of women working in
prostitution.The problem of prostitution will not disappear
in the near future – not because it is the “oldest profession,” as is
sometimes claimed, but because too many people make a living from
prostitution and are unable and unwilling to permit it to disappear.
Despite this, women working in prostitution can be helped without
legitimizing traffickers, pimps, and the sex industry as a whole.

Couldn’t agree with you more Emma. I especially like your recognition that legalisation doesn’t uphold prostitutes, it upholds prostitution. Indeed proponents of legalisation are, perhaps unknowingly, advocating for prostitution and not for prostitutes. One doesn’t uphold the victim of drowning by upholding the act of drowning. A society which legal uses prostitution does just that, it shows its commitment to the act of prostitution, but ths shoud not be mistaken for a societal commitment to prostitutes.

Yes, we are idiots thinking that keeping murder illegal will make it go away. Let’s legalise it!

LEGALISE THE MURDER!!!

I’m not judging but are you therefore saying that keeping it illegal and unregulated is the better way to go?

No, based on the research I undertook I found that people respond to risk & reward, and that this is evident in Holland. Think about regulation for a minute. What is being regulated? Prostitution? No certainly not, because some forms of prostitution are always illegal irrespective if the regime: where kids are involved or in the case of adults where the person has no right to work in the jurisdiction. When legalisation was introduced in Holland 65-80% were foreign migrants, so they didn’t register. Another substantial proportion were kids (Holland has immense problems with “Loverboy” traffickers grooming kids for the sex trade) and these kids didn’t register. And others didn’t register either, because it was less profitable, etc. So what first seems plausible is lesser so with examination. In fact way really happened was where Sweden criminalised all prostitution, in effect Holland criminalised most of it. Most prostitution in Holland were illegal forms and this continued when legalisation was introduced. People act in their own interest, as illustrated by a risk-reward perspective. To criminologists this is nothing new. Indeed NY Mayor reduced crime by fighting it. In Ireland 97% of those working in the sex trade are not Irish.

But based on thus realisation another dawns. There is a pragmatism, one based in criminology, economics, etc. for pursuing the buyer (punter) of sexual services as a route to reducing trafficking and prostitution. Those who oppose this route try to illustrate it as being solely moral or simplistic. In truth the thinking behind the approach is much more complex; there are thousands upon thousands of pages of reports from all across the globe on the experience of the sex trade from just the past few years alone, and much can be learned.

If I can sum up:
Imagine you put 250 Euros in your wallet and leave it on a table. Decriminalisation proposes that if it were no longer illegal to take your wallet there would be no pickpockets. Legalisation expects that if taking your wallet were regulated pickpockets would sign-up and give the state a share of the proceeds. Abolition recognises that the economic reason for someone stealing your wallet will always remain and that it must be combatted. Which would you trust your wallet to?

This is why I support the Turn Off The Red Light campaign and its efforts to abolish prostitution and the trafficking that is part of it.

YEP, THERE ARE SOME BOYS WHO WERE INDEED RAISED TO NOT EXPECT SEX AS A RIGHT :)

Tommy, many studies have been done on the types of people and their places in society who pay for sex. The results have shown time and time again that they come from all walks of life. It could be argued, based on that, that no matter how you bring up kids, men are always on some level going to revert back to their animal hormonal state of wanting sex, and that it’s nature at work, which is what our race needs to survive. Also, the demand may be there, but in order to have a commodity that can be sold, you need to have someone willing to sell it.

The harm of legal prostitution is that it is morally corrupt. It has social costs and breeds an inappropriate attitude towards sex in society. nnGranted illegal prostitution also breeds negative consequences.nnThe ideal situation would arise if the demand for prostitution were quenched through legislation.

While I agree with removing the criminal element, do you think that women will come flooding into this line of work once it’s regulated? Personally I just think it’s an extension of biblical times where women are subordinate to men, it may be one of the oldest professions, but is that a qualification for condoning it? Nobody grows up, man or woman, thinking, Jesus, I’d love to be a prostitute when I’m older.

Damn all the green thumbers…. :P
I asked the question in order to get an honest open debate going….
Which is better, Prostitues working in an environment that provies some level of security, where the prostitutes feel comfortable in all cases, calling the Gardai for help….. working in an environment where the brothel keeper is responsible for ensuring their safety under Irish law…. or a Brothel or street trade where the Prostitue is working outside the law, where a potential rapist, has to make the decision, ‘ Do i kill her after i raped her, in case she reports the rape? ”
My comments on this thread are meant to provoke reaction, not just thumbing….
What are the pros and cons ….

The other side…..
To date… using our existing laws, the woman is treated like dirt … similar to the magdeline laundry slaves… no rights, no credibility and zero self-respect.
Men rape them too often to even talk about. They are used as punch bags… they are garbage in the eyes of the law.

What is the right response. Forget your religious opinions on the rights and wrongs of the profession… what is the right way to proeect the women who partake in the industry, in order to eek out a living. No-one wakes up and says i want to be a prostitute … the social reasons for their decisions are not going to be removed, because a law is changed. There is always going to be prostitution … so how should we as a country deal with that reality and then try to move on from there?

You are right, and another question I would ask what if a person couldn’t have a girl friend for what ever reason if that person wants to have sex once a month or so if prostitution is banned what’s there for that person should that person turn and rape someone, of course not, or should there be some good Samaritan who would offer consensual sex but won’t be any money involve. ans Australian example is great and this illegal industry could pay huge tax to the state. No sex slave. No HIV

@ zakir, you could always have an auld wank

It’s a good idea but our beloved government couldn’t run a p**s up in a brewery. But something needs to be done for anyone held or forced against their will.

@George what is morally corrupt?
Surely each person has a free choice to conduct a sex life as they see fit,Even if you wouldn’t chose the same lifestyle. As long as its legal in my opinion there isn’t anything wrong with that.

Similar to the way the demand for illegal narcotics has been successfully quenched by legislation? If legislation worked there would be no crime would there? Just make it illegal and people would stop. Like if you made alcohol illegal people would stop,…

Cal1 the reasons forcing children/women into prostitution may not disappear BUT society can place supports so that they choose a job or go on the dole instead of prostitution. Ireland has come a long way in how it treats women, ME at my poorest or most desperate i was never required to go sell sex to strangers, NOW they import slaves to work here in the sex industry cos no woman here wants to do it (they have alternatives) no woman ANYWHERE actually WANTS to do it, it may appear to be the only option to some, and others are forced into it by brothers/cousins/pimps/boyfriends.

Noel, by that logic, anything that is legal in any country is acceptable, such as stoning adulterers, arresting people for anti-governerment Tweets, throwing acid in people’s faces for wearing make-up. Are men trafficked across continents to satisfied the needs of women? And if they were, would you be okay with that? It’s naive to assume that prostitution is in any way a happy or decent living for women.

Gauis. How do you know someone wouldn’t like this lifestyle as a form of income. Have you asked everyone in the Business?
That’s my point people are different and if they choose this good luck to them. No one will force them into a legal regulated trade

Emma, i did not give you the red thumbs .. i am going to green thumb you after i write this ….. I want to hear an honest debate/discussion/opinion…
I probably wrote my comment to invite supporters, but i really was hoping to hear more from dissenters. No one wakes up one morning and says to themselves they want to be a prostitute.
But, i must say this… as long as there is demand, there will always be a supply. no amount of laws will stop this. That is my honest opinion. And i think, dealing with protecting the rights, welfare and well-being of those suppliers, should be the intent of any future laws.
I hope you agree….
Again, lets discuss….

Ask your mother

The majority of independent women in the sex industry do not want to work in brothels where they pay a percentage of their earnings to a third party. What they are asking for is that it be made legal for them to work in small groups of two or three for companionship, security, and the sharing of bills for heating and lighting, etc. Under the current law independent sex workers who do this are criminalised and therefore many of them work alone.

Proposals put forward by anti sex-work lobbyists would make it illegal for a landlord to rent accommodation to these women and they would be obliged under the law to throw these women out or face conviction. Don’t be fooled by the lobbyists use of the word “decriminalisation” of the women because independent sex workers are not now criminalised if they work alone. One of the goals of the lobbyists is to flush out independent sex workers via their landlord.

BBC1 Northern Ireland has a debate tonight between a pro sex-work lobbyist and Lord Morrow who wishes to implement the Swedish model in Northern Ireland.

Zakir, while I am all for legalizing prostitution, rape in society has got nothing to do with lack of access to prostitution. Rape is about violence, not sex. That has been well documented by mental health professionals.

Increasing the number available, or legality of prostitutes in a society will have a negligible effect on the rape numbers in that society. They are 2 totally different issues.

@ Cal1 Mooney
“If we had state approved brothels (not state approved slave houses and run like the Magdeline laundry’s)”
“The other side…..
To date… using our existing laws, the woman is treated like dirt … similar to the magdeline laundry slaves… no rights, no credibility and zero self-respect.”

Ruhama, the organisation mentioned in the article, was set up in 1989 and is run by 2 of the orders who ran the laundries.
“Origins and Development
Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution.”
http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=4

@noel I reckon prostitution would not be a profession that women would freely choose.. Even if were legal. I reckon it would be a profession of necessity for certain women based on socio economic circumstances. As such, the notion of free choice can be disregarded.nnThere are many things which are legal, but which our conscience tells us is inappropriate: cheating on a loved one for example. In this regard, I believe prostitution would fall into this category, even if it were legal. nn@mark in relation to quenching demand for prostitution through legislation – Comparing prostitution and narcotics is like comparing apples and oranges. Engaging in services with a prostitute is an intimate act which would be highly shameful and embarrassing should it become public knowledge – I do not think the same would apply to recreational drug use. As such, I believe that if legislation targeted the users of prostitution, it could be quite effective.

@Emma Ryan

Today a member of the Gardai told the Oireachtas hearings that they don’t see children involved in prostitution. Where did TORL get their Anna was 14 statistic from? Where did TORL get their Average age is 15 statistic from? The latter especially doesn’t make sense considering what average actually means.

JournalComment why are you asking me where an organisation gets their info? I dont work in their research dept. although I have read many stories of women who entered prostitution as 13/14/15 year olds due to homelessness, family issues, force…

I think the debate around prostitution tends to be very one sided in Ireland. Judging by some of the comments above, many people seem to assume that sex work is a job a person could never choose for themselves, that it is only ever forced on people who are trafficked in or because of socio economic reasons or to feed drug habits, etc. This strikes me a paternalistic notion and patronising at best; that people can’t decide these things for themselves, that it ALWAYS has to be because of some terrible live circumstance, that there is something fundamentally wrong with being a sex worker!
I personally have no experience in or of the industry but I think any legislation that we bring in here should take into account the safety of the workers in the industry, with the joint goal of protecting those trafficking in illegally and anyone else being forced into the work against their will. I also believe the voices of the actual people who work in the industry by choice need to be heard and I think this is being lost in the campaign being run by TORL, one being backed as some have pointed out by organisations connected to the Magdalene Laundries…
For another perspective on people who work in the industry, information can be found here:
http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/
This page is particularly informative/interesting:
http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/about/poster-campaign/

http://theprostitutionexperience.com/ here’s one former prostitute account for you JournalComment she began age 15

Journal Comment is correct about the numbers of independent escorts. It’s pretty simple to become one, it would be excellent if they could band together in small numbers for security reasons. As it stands, they’re allowed to have one other person acting as a kind of secretary, but anything more is illegal.

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2012/12/Legalised-prostitution-increases-human-trafficking.aspx Countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported inflows of human trafficking. most victims of international human trafficking are women and girls, the vast majority of whom end up being sexually exploited through prostitution. Domestic policy on prostitution in countries of destination, it says, has a marked effect. our research suggests that in countries where prostitution is legalised, there is such a significant expansion of the prostitution market that the end result is larger reported inflows of human trafficking. While legalising prostitution can have positive effects on the working conditions of those legally employed in the industry, it also appears to boost the market for this fast-growing global criminal industry.” http://www.examiner.com/article/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women The police said that child trafficking comprises 65 out of 534 cases reported last year, and 41 of them were under the age of 14.

http://www.hotline.org.il/english/pdf/The_Legalization_Of_Prostitution_English.pdf An examination of the practical ramifications of the legalization
of prostitution in a number of jurisdictions shows that the main objectives
of this process – the elimination of trafficking in women, improving their
health, and ensuring they enjoy rights – have totally failed or, at best,
have been only a very partial success. Legalization has been shown to
provide only limited protection for women, and generally only for those
women who choose to work in prostitution of their own free will.
In light of the experience elsewhere, there can be no
certainty that the legalization of prostitution will indeed benefit the public
exchequer. However, it will certainly prove financially rewarding for the
pimps.

You’re in cloud cookoo land if you think that you’ll quench people’s appetite for this trade through legislation

You’re in cloud cookoo land if you think that you’ll quench people’s appetite for this trade through legislation

You’re in cloud cookoo land if you think that you’ll quench people’s appetite for this trade through legislation

http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=33

Ask your mother..

George… do you really think that the demand for sex can be diminished by legislation? No amount of laws will decrease the demand for sex. Punitive legislation will only drive the business underground, making more money for the crims and further endangering women.. legislative acts wont work.. look at prohibition in american its a similar situation.. why not legalise it and protect the sex workers.. yeah its morally corrupt but who are we to enforce our morals on other people? Live and let live I say

Emma, can I just point out that the link to The Prostitute Experience is a link to a blog run by a woman called Free Irish Woman who has repeatedly in the past been discredited by sex workers and is seen as a fraud

And Emma, while legalisation in itself may not work, there is clear and even stronger evidence that criminalising sex work is much more harmful. There may be an attempt to cover up the truth coming from Sweden and Norway right now, but reports have indicated an increase in trafficking (Sweden discovered the biggest trafficking ring in their country only last year), violence and rape against sex workers.

The truth is: prostitution is not the same thing for everybody. There are no hard and fast rules we can employ that will fix everything for everyone. There are no easy answers. But criminalising it definately does not work. And certain models of decriminalisation DO work at least a little better.

Trafficking, pimping and underage prostitution are already illegal in Ireland. Selling sex is not illegal. I think this is a good thing. The hearings should be balanced and come up with better solutions for tackling exploitation while at the same time protecting sex workers. Funds should be poured into social work, the police and resource centers for vulnerable people to protect them from exploitation. That would certainly help the most out of everything: if people are not vulnerable, they will not be forced to go into prostitution. But we will NEVER do this because we have the worst government and we’re getting rid of all our resouces to bail out banks. So all the government can do to make it look like they’re doing some good is change some laws around.

You are making the assumption that prostitution is a female only industry

The Swedish police own report showed an increase of 546% in the purchase of sexual services in Sweden between 2008 and 2012. So exactly what is the new law achieving?

Well said juliette!

How nice of the Swedish organised women trafficer’s / crime gangs to give out figures of their diseased sex trade before it was made legal.

Trafficking in Sweden and Norway has increased, as has violence against sex workers.

The Germans can (almost) achieve anything when they put their mind to it, good point.

And directly across the road from the Frankfurt Bahnhof is the gutter. Have you ever seen it for yourself? The one in hamburg is just as bad.

The appropriately named Rieperbahn in Hamburg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

I have to agree with Emma here. Most jobs in fairness have a level of exploitation in them. I feel very uneasy about threatening people with loosing benefits if they don’t accept whatever work is given to them.

But there IS a level, and the right to decency, privacy and bodily integrity are essential human rights. All types of sex work should NOT be treat as regular jobs – some individuals may see it that way, but most honestly don’t – because they breach those rights. No matter what is said, it’s a really tough gig and can have lasting psychological damage if you’re not an insanely strong person.

It should not be made illegal, it should always stay decriminalised and those who chose to become sex workers – for whatever reason – should have all their rights and should be respected. But there is no way it can be treated like any other job.

Criminalising the buying of sex does nothing to stop exploitation, and reports are beginning to show that it increases violence against sex workers.

Changing the law won’t do anything to tackle the real problems. Addiction, poverty, lack of resources and bad social environments are the reasons most people turn to prostitution. So we have to begin by tackling that.

Lots of people with money and power will always use their money and power to exploit others. To tackle this we need to ensure every person in this country is independent and has the resources to be happy and live a fulfilled life in a way they can be proud of. That’s the core issue.

Until then, we have to protect those in prostitution as best we can, and criminalising the buying or selling of sex is definitely not the way to go.

Eleen I agree, and I think in Ireland we now have good supports which means hardly any Irish women are vulnerable enough to be coerced or feel they have no other option. It’s not fun living on the dole but it’s possible to survive. And other things like rent allowance, medical cards etc help. But now the majority of sex workers are foreign because there are still women around the world who can be Used and Abused because they have little or no options in life, and there are plenty of men thinking its ok to abuse them. How they reconcile it in their minds I don’t really know, they probably justify their behaviour by thinking she chooses to be there, or she’s not the same (equal) as their daughter/wife/mother mentally they have degrees of women and who deserves rights and respect. Greed and money runs prostitution now not sex, the gangs and people abroad enticing girls into going to Ireland to ‘waitress’ do it for themselves they don’t care that Michael in portlaoise needs a good shag and his wife doesn’t like to be abused in bed.

In all honesty, this is a very tricky subject, and it’s much trickier than it looks. Trafficking does happen, but the figures and the gardai stats themselves show that it is not actually as prevalent as Ruhama and similar organisations would have us believe. Of a raid last year on hundreds of brothels across Ireland, for example, the guards found only 3 or 4 cases of possible trafficking.

The problem is, that women often come here from other countries to work (or to “tour” as the call it), because the conditions are extremely favourable here and they can charge pretty high prices. There are also asylum seekers that have no other option or way of making money. When both these type of people are discovered, they are often seen or described as trafficked individuals when they are not.

Even more problematic is that in many countries, when women are picked up for prostitution, they are immediately sent back to their countries, indicating that police use the anti-trafficking laws simply as a way to deport people.

Again, anti-trafficking is something we have to look at, but without the hype around it. Asylum seekers especially need rights to work in this country it is disgraceful what is going on with them right now. I do believe that clients of sex workers and sex workers themselves are in the best position to report cases of suspected trafficking, so making it easy for them to do so would be a good step.

There’s plenty of research and articles on the problems of the anti-trafficking movement right now that may make you think twice about the methods being used. I don’t have the answer as to what’s the best to do myself unfortunately :/

Limerick?

It drove prostitution further underground in Sweden. When you suppress, you create demand.

Also, could you explain how this proposed criminalization will work because if the seller testifies, he/she may jeopardize his/her future business?

Are you serious? That’s probably the most sexist thing I’ve ever read in my life, or seen! ‘Tax the women’, priceless!

“Even the hardest core feminist has given it up for material gain. ” EXCUSE ME?!!!!!!!!!!? i personally have ‘given it up’ :) for no gain If a man needs to buy me either by paying cash for sex or flowers I Wouldn’t Call him a Man, i wouldn’t Want That Man. He would be a backwards boring egotistical disrespectful chauvinist , i could find a better man

Emma,

The phrase “All sex is rape” is often thrown about by some partisan feminist groups. It was a radical feminist concept that because a man penetrates a woman he is forcing his way into her body – the concept of rape is pushing something inside where it does not belong – although he is not doing so against her will a part of his body is pushing into a resisting part of hers. This was subverted to indicate that all penetrative sex is forcible entry and completely misses the point that the two people owning those bodies are enjoying themselves and not resisting anything. No partisan interest group should have the right to demand a ‘nanny state’ policy of suppression against two consenting people.

Emma, you’ve given it up for no gain you say? Well then don’t accept the next drink you get offered by a guy, because you can take it for granted he’s not buying it for your fantastic conversation, no matter how interesting you may think you are to men.

Sounds like someone has had a lot of rejection, and invested heavily in it

@mypolitics_1. You have a serious, serious problem with women.

“Men have paid for sex since the BEGGING of time?” That’s a serious Freudian slip there, mypolitics1. Begging for it aside, women are not a commodity to be bought and sold like a burger.

i dont accept payment for my conversational skills either :) payment for Anything , except when i go to work, and even then i volunteer weekly too

Mark Dalt, i have no idea why my name is at the beginning of your comment

Who’d bag ya love,talking like that you’ll get no where

:) you’re absolutely hilarious Slagrider. I’ve been with my fella for 7 years now, and had more fellas before him none of which i took ‘payment’ from in the form of dinner/movies/cash . Just an old fashioned relationship where men talk and listen and spend time with women and dont need to buy them. Because i actually have met men who are interesting and worth spending time with, strange isnt it?

http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=62

Of course they listened,not a word in edge ways I’d say.

Emma, that blog you linked to is run by someone who has been outed as a fraud. There are plenty of other blogs to chose from!

In all other respects here, I’m with you. A lot of sexism rearing its ugly head here.

You can offer to buy someone a drink as a sign of friendliness and not expect anything in return. That’s called being a decent human being. That’s how it should be unless you both specifically agree beforehand that you should get something in return.

And Mark Dalt: you are right. there are some splinter groups of feminism where people think all sex is rape. I speak here as a feminist myself. It’s becoming very obvious how some groups of feminists are starting to police and silence women who disagree with them, and in this country are siding with the likes of Ruhama whose members ran Magdalene Laundries and don’t hide the fact. Pretty scary stuff.