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Creighton: We need to send a 'strong signal of commitment' in referendum

Creighton says she doesn’t want to “dictate to any citizen” about how to voting in the upcoming fiscal compact referendum – but warns that future external funding may dry up if Ireland says No.

THE MINISTER FOR European Affairs Lucinda Creighton has said she believes it is in Ireland’s interest to vote Yes in the upcoming fiscal compact referendum - but that she was “not going to dictate to any citizen” on the issue.

Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland programme today, Creighton said that the amendment of the country’s constitution was “the reserve of Irish citizens”, and that how to vote was a personal decision.

However, Creighton dismissed as ‘fantasy’ the suggestion that Ireland could vote No and still be in a strong position to secure further funding from European allies if needed.

Sinn Féin’s spokesperson on Foreign Affairs Pádraig Mac Loughlainn rejected Creighton’s assertion, saying that funding could be found from “a range of places” in the case of Ireland voting No.

When pressed on where Ireland would find funding, if it required one, after voting no on the treaty, Mac Loughlainn said: “Ireland is a member of the eurozone – is anyone seriously suggesting that if we don’t sign up to new rules that we won’t be able to access funding?”

Household charge

Meanwhile, on the issue of the household charge, Creighton said the money due from the levy is needed “in the coffers as quickly as possible” in order to pay for locally-based services.

Creighton admitted that the Government had “made mistakes” regarding the information made available to the public about how to pay the charge, but that most of the confusion had now been cleared up.

She said the money collected via the charge would be used to provide services at a local level, describing the current funding situation as “dire”.

“We need the money in the coffers as quickly as possible,” she added.

Mac Loughlainn insisted there were other ways that money could be raised for local services, for example a ‘wealth tax’.

Mac Loughlainn said he was “amazed” at the profile of people who were refusing to pay the charge, describing them as members of society who had always been law-abiding. However, he said that there were “just and unjust laws” and that people could take a stand against what they view as injustice.

Sinn Féin have not advised the public not to pay the charge, he said, because the party “would be writing their cheques” if the matter went to court. As such, Mac Loughlainn said the decision rested with each individual.

Creighton attacked the Sinn Féin’s position on the matter, calling it “grossly irresponsible”.

Fiscal compact referendum to be held on Thursday 31 May>

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146 Comments
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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:44 AM

    We need you to stop lying Lucinda!

    97
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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:39 AM

    We need her to shut up – full stop. Her & Leo V.

    35
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:38 PM

    No Declan. We need Lucinda to keep issuing threats. There is an absence of fear in Ireland atm. The more threats she makes the higher our BS radar rises. We are not afraid of them anymore! Keep it up Lucinda, Leo, Brian, Phil and Enda. You’re giving us our peaceful Revolution on a plate. Thanks for reminding us that FG are intolerable. We won’t be fooled again!

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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:42 PM

    Yes. Even a useless fool has some use. Enda K needs to have a reshuffle. Not only do Leo V & LC get peoples backs up, Phil has priven himself a total gobshite who couldn’t organise a ride in a brothel. As I said before, I have no prob with “rates” as long as it is fair, money goes to where it is meant to go & everyone makes a contribution. Aren’t we all suppose to be equal under the Constitution ? I’m sure there’s a logal challenge there somewhere ?!! I just heard an hour ago that this E100 is an administration fee to facilitate the intro of property tax proper. Can anyone confirm this ?

    15
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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:43 PM

    Should read “proven” & “legal”.

    7
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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:45 PM

    They threaten people at their electorial peril. If 1.2m homes don’t pay – that’s a lot of votes.

    12
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    Mute aisling quigley
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:57 AM

    She can piss off with her scaremongering we have a choice and we can say no am voting no. Fuck europe we hve proped up their banks enough!
    We listened to them before and look were it got us, these people are serving their own interest and their masters in germany, they dont give a shit about Ireland or they wouldnt be selling it or they wouldnt have allowed the black mail clause! Vote no no no no

    76
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:05 AM

    We’re going to send a “strong signal of our commitment” to Europe alright Lucinda. A big fat ZERO!

    63
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    Mute Aidan Molloy
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:45 AM

    All this messing for 100 Euro. Just imagine next year!

    62
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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:48 AM

    Could Lucinda explain the mad rush to hold this referendum on the fiscal compact? Considering the next likely President of France François Hollande has already said that if he does become President he will be going back to Europe looking for changes to the compact. Would we not be better off waiting to see if that does happen otherwise we may find ourselves having to vote again regardless of the first result. I thought we were trying to save money?

    61
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    Mute tom finnerty
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:40 AM

    A strong signal that we should be committed more like

    58
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    Mute justsaying
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:49 AM

    “In a strong position to receive further funding” You aren’t in a strong position if you need to look for funding and I don’t think we’d have a problem receiving funding, as we are already paying back considerably more than our European neighbours on our already, unsustainable loans!!! ECB are not the only place we can look for funding. You were elected by the people, now do what your supposed to do. And represent them.

    17
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    Mute HI SPRUIKER
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:08 PM

    NO!!
    NO!!
    NO!!
    NO!!
    NO!!

    Is that strong enough?

    26
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:16 PM

    @Justsaying … other than European institutions like the ECB and the ESM (the focus of this treaty), what are the other places that you think we can secure affordable funding from ?

    7
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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:30 PM

    so desmond,
    even tho the ECB and the EU flocked us over BIG time,
    we should still consider them our partners?

    And you want more of them?
    We can barely get accountability from our own shower,
    what chance do we stand with europoliticians
    we didn’t elect,
    and who chances are never set foot in Eire
    and probably have F All interest in doing so?

    I suppose u call urself someone who believes in democracy

    16
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    Mute Fagan's
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:44 PM

    On the other hand if we vote No we are sitting on the same side of most leading economists and investors , the next leader of France, the Spanish PM. Hilary Clinton, the U.S. Foreign Secretary.

    And on the opposite side of the people who created a treaty that has absolutely nothing to do with resolving the financial crisis, who have refused to resolve Greece’s problems in a sustainable way.

    This treaty is a dangerous distraction for the EU, it is about playing electoral politics by Merkel. It makes no economic or business sense and will, if implemented, have an entire continent committed to a policy of severely reduced growth.

    The Spanish have already singed and ignored this woeful treaty, and been rewarded by the markets for doing so. It should be voted down, and a realistic alternative that is not concerned with German elections put in place.

    The future of all of Europe depends on this.

    9
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:20 PM

    Those are all interesting comments joseph and, espcially, fagan … but, like I asked before … other than European institutions like the ECB and the ESM (the focus of this treaty), what are the other places that you think we can secure affordable funding from ?

    3
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    Mute HI SPRUIKER
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:49 PM

    @ Miss Creighton.

    Your Government has done very little to make your people believe that you are acting in their best interests.

    Are you acting in our best interests Lucinda?

    Lead by example!!
    Let them eat cakers!!
    Then, and only then will you gain the support of ”your” people.

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    Mute HI SPRUIKER
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:54 PM

    “We need the money in the coffers as quickly as possible,” she added”

    Yes to pay for inept politicians extortionate
    Mess ups
    Salaries
    And Pensions

    7
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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 6:48 PM

    @Desmond: are you worried that we won’t be able to pay “our” debts, or that we might have to something about the deficit?

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    Mute Stephen Maher
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:00 AM

    All the lying lucinda has to do now that she’s in government is having a dreadful effect on her looks judging by this photo.

    52
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:17 AM

    A childish and unpleasant comment that says more about you than it does about Lucinda Creighton.

    38
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    Mute Mike Scott
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:01 AM

    Where do they get them? Every last one of them talks bollox! I used to be a great fan of Gilmore and Burton! Were they only acting for the last 5 years, or did power change their whole personality? As far as I’m concerned, they should be immediately sacked for breach of contract! At least Creighton is still the same power hungry fascist she always was!!

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    Mute Stephen Maher
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:23 PM

    @desmond
    I was actually paying the woman a veiled compliment. It’s not my fault that she’s chosen the path of lies and deceit in pursuit of power. She was once a fine looking woman, but the decay going on in her soul is making itself evident in her features, with the result that she looks like she drinks whiskey for breakfast and smokes about 80 a day!

    8
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:55 PM

    That’s an even sadder comment by you. You really are a very unpleasant person.

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    Mute Unitedpeople Ireland
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:19 AM

    Dear Lucinda – Go away and get stuffed!

    37
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    Mute Paul O'Praha
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:35 AM

    Someone needs to tell this odious woman that leadership does not equate with fear mongering.

    31
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    Mute Ciaro
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:45 AM

    Vote yes so Lucinda can continue collecting her exorbitant salary, while doing fuck all for the citizens of Ireland.

    Kiss my fiscal compact!

    28
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    Mute Niamh Byrne
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:20 AM

    Nothing will change unless we make ourselves heard and the only way we can do it is to say no to the household tax. Enough is enough. http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-27/ireland-deserves-breathing-room-on-debt-to-revive-economy.html

    23
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    Mute Ultan Quirke
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:30 PM

    The referendum isn’t about the household charge?

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    Mute Niamh Byrne
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    Mar 28th 2012, 6:46 PM

    Obviously ultan. You need too look at the bigger picture. Its about democracy. Web have been too compliant over the past four years and now our goverment, the eu and the ecb think web are a push over. Enda kenny is a yes man through and through. He is too ‘nice’ for our own good. We need someone with balls or boobs (I’m into equality) too take the tough line. Ireland is not a pushover.

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    Mute Sheila Byrne
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:58 AM

    God, Lucinda is power mad! Don’t get ahead of yourself Lucinda, I don’t want to put you down, being another female and all that. Remember, when Leo takes over Fine Gael, he may not see you as part of his new team when he shoots Enda and the rest of them in the back, although some of them, like Hogan is doing it to himself, he doesn’t need Leo!

    If Leo sees you to be too strong, he won’t want to have you around undermining his dictatorship. My advice to you, is to stay true to yourself, to the people of Ireland, believe in yourself not in what others want you to believe in and I might have respect for you in the future as you gain experience in life and politics.

    23
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    Mute mcbab
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:59 AM

    My goodness sheila that sure is some crystal ball you have! Paranoia the order of the day?

    24
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    Mute Sheila Byrne
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:27 PM

    @Mcbab

    No, not a crystal ball, all I’m doing is watching Mr. Varadkra and the way he speaks/works. Just my opinion, correct me if I’m wrong, I would say before the end of this year! No I am not a member of any ‘club’! I am as independent as one could be! I listen to the way people speak, and whether they speak ‘at you’ or ‘to you’. I know whether I like somebody or not within minutes and so far in my 30 + years of adulthood I have never been wrong yet.

    7
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:15 AM

    If we vote “No” then we cut off access to the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) which is there to provide funding in teh event of a second bailout beign required by Ireland. When asked what we woudl do for funding if we vote “No”, Pádraig Mac Loughlainn, SF’s spokesperson, says shure there’ll be LOADS of people, wanting to lend to us. When pressed he says we’ll get it from the other Eurozone members, i.e. from the same ESM that his No vote would cut us off from. I don’t believe that SF are just thick and don’t actually join the dots on their arguments. I think instead that SF are prepared to throw nationalist shapes and gamble with this country’s future just so long as they get a chance pirouette in the spotlight. #sinnfeinfail

    23
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    Mute Danny McLaughlin
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:26 AM

    I’m undecided on whether I’ll vote yes or no yet, but my own TD certainly hasn’t made his case very well in that interview.
    “Where will we get funding?”
    “Ah sure lookit, we’ll be grand…”

    17
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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:27 AM

    @Declan not everyone who intends to vote no agrees with SF i certainly don’t.I read the treaty and the laymans version that the Journal uploaded and on that basis only have i made up my mind to vote no.

    29
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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:29 AM

    But Desmond our current government are saying we will not require any additional funding once this program finishes are they being economical with the truth?

    24
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:36 AM

    What kind of a gov put a blackmail clause into ESM Treaty Desmond? They can still Veto it but won’t. Because those your party are in bed with have no regard for their people. The veil is lifting and transparency at last. We will vote NO. We are not scared anymore.

    43
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    Mute aisling quigley
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:43 AM

    FG gave them the stick to beat us with regarding the esm fund, they no more care about the irish then the germans do! SF are the only party sticking up for Ireland! FG are riding on the broken backs of the average irish citizen for the rich!
    If they really gave a shit about funding for our country they woul not be taking huge salaries along with expenses! Seriously open ur eyes before it is to late! Future generations are going to look back and say what the fuck did they do if wr vote yes’ money isnt the bee end of all plenty of irish generations learned how to survive through community etc maybe we could do that to leave a better Ireland (not a state of germany) for our futute generations!

    24
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:46 AM

    @Kerry … government ministers do not openly speculate about a second bailout because to do so would affect our lenders’ and putative lenders’ sentiment about this State’s capacitry to return to the markets as planned. The last thing we need to do now is add to the existing uncertainty about our capacity to meet our funding obligations. I’m not about to gamble this country’s financial stability on SF’s promise of “shure, it’ll all be grand”.

    12
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:50 AM

    @Réada .. what blackmail clause? Or by that do you mean the blindingly obvious requirement that if you want to have access to the ESM you need to part of the club and play by the rules? If Eurozone members (including us in the future) are to lend out their own taxpayers cash to fund the budget of a country that gets into financial difficulty in the future, then it is not unreasonable that they require that state to be a memebr of the ESM. Your consequence-free, something-for-nothing attitude is what got us into this mess in the first place.

    12
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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:52 AM

    desmond,
    please stop trying to link anyone who’ll vote no to sf.
    clearly not true.

    oh, and answer readas question, thanks

    25
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:02 AM

    Desmond. Blindingly obvious to us. Obviously blind to your side. Enda Kenny is such a coward and so out of his depth I’m surprised he’s not drowned by now. Can you not see? Loyalty is an admiral trait but country before party please.

    We were within those constraints before the crash. This Treaty is the greatest hogwash. Fine countries that are going through a financial crises? Winners and Losers in a “supposed” Union? Who’s blind now?

    We are awakening. One at a time but we can see through this BS.

    29
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:21 AM

    And Desmond. Threatening us with being Sinn Féin voters is an idle threat. But god knows that’s all the FiannaGaeLabourParty is good for.

    I heard Pearse Doherty on Late Debate last night. I heard the sadness in his voice. It was refreshingly nice to feel that someone felt the pain this country is feeling. I also heard RBB in Dáil yesterday. Again he cares.

    So damn right. I’ll be voting ULA/Sinn Féin next time and the sooner the better. I hear there’s trouble ahead for what’s left of the Labour Party. Serves ye right. Ye have spat upon James Connolly’s memory. It hurts me to say this as I have always voted Labour and only Labour. But never again.

    26
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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:26 AM

    I said nowt, Norman !! Anyway – eventhough I do believe a household charge ( the old style rates ) is a good idea, I have decided not to pay it as not everyone is paying it & I don’t take too kindly to us being bullied by Govt. Everyone has to make a contribution. No exceptions. People are being prejudiced against coz they can pay. They messed it up & if they can’t get a simple thing like the household charge right – God help us !! As regards Ms Lucinda C herself – she & Leo V do one hell of a job ensuring the public detest them even more whenever they open their mouths. I still suspect Enda K keeps them around to make tools of them. Regarding the upcoming referendum, I plan to spoil my vote as I type. I’ll make up my mind nearer to the time. The Mahon results have sickened me to my gut.

    12
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:34 AM

    @Joseph .. I didn’t say everyone who opposes the treaty is linked to SF. The article this thread is commenting on deals with the discussion that took place between the FG and SF spokesperosns, hence my comments focus on what they said in that interview.

    On your second point of Réada’s question. I did answer what I thought to be the object of her reference to blackmail clauses, and asked her to confirm that. If she was referring to some other clause perhaps she might now tell us.

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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:37 AM

    howrya decko!

    I agree with your sentiment.
    If everyone pulls together we can come thru this.
    But that must include the G taking a big slash to wages till crisis is over,
    berties pension gone, flynns pension gone,
    the golden handshakes that the retiring FF tds took when they bailed out before the last election,
    the regulators handshake and pension taken back,
    any banker in the state who cooked the books jailed,
    and casino banking debt of the books.

    Then i will happily row in with making Ireland a good country again.

    until then………….

    15
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:46 AM

    Take a wild guess Desmond. I’m referring to the clause in the extremely dangerous Treaty your buddies had inserted into ESM Treaty that we will not be able to access a future bailout. Bailout my ass!

    Ask Greece how they enjoyed watching 82% of their recent bailout going straight back to International banks. We’ve been conned too often. We won’t be conned again.

    I’m voting NO as I care about the citizens in Greece too who are paying the price for their governments ineptitude. It will probably go unheard in the corridors of power but I don’t care. I’ll keep shouting.

    I better stop now tho as I have to go grocery shopping. I keep buying and they keep eating. Something’s gotta give. Bye ;)

    17
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:21 PM

    Ah Réada .. so we ARE talking about the same thing, i.e. access to the ESM being contingent on ratification of the Fiscal Treaty. So, if we follow your advice and vote “No” and hence cannot access the ESM in the event of a further downturn in the economy and public finances, where do you say we’ll get the cash to fund our public services from?
    *grabs bag of popocorn and settles down on couch to watch*

    9
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:52 PM

    Desmond. Enjoy stuffing your face with popcorn. FG not allowing you access to the smoked salmon anymore? Must be tough playing second fiddle to them. Heart bleeds!

    I’ll give you a thought. How about you give up on this crazy addiction ye have to borrowing? How about facing up to the banks and demanding write offs not write downs? How about structured loan reductions for struggling mortgage holders thereby freeing up cash into the economy?

    Nah! Let’s keep propping up the stinking financial institutions that got us into this mess. That’s more this government’s stuff. It’s spineless! And I know they’re not just German. They’re international. There goes your usual pleasure of using the xenophobic card.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:02 PM

    My apoligies Declan i meant to type Desmond.

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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:48 PM

    You’re alright, Norman. A pint of Heino & a packet of dry roasted & we’ll call it quits !!! At the end of it all, u have to keep a sense of humour & just say “f*ck it” from time to time.

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:35 PM

    So Réada … you think that we should not borrow money at all to fund public services. OK. The current budget deficit between what the government takes in taxes and what is paid out in public spending (hospitals, schools, social welfare, etc) is minus €18 billion. That’s BEFORE we take account of the costs of servicing the bank bailout loans that SF, FG and FF voted for. So, if you’ve ruled out borrowing to fund this deficit, that means cutting the public service budget by €16 billion. Kindly tell me which cuts you would make to meet this deficit.
    *still on the popcorn*

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 6:50 PM

    If we vote “No” then we cut off access to the ESM – are you sure about that Desmond? No chance that some other arrangement would have to be worked out?

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 7:13 PM

    @skeolawn .. Yes, very definitely. Access to the ESM is contingent on a State’s membership of the Scheme and that requires ratification of the treaty. Does that mean that funding might be available from some other source, well, I don’t know. Do you? Are you prepared to bet the state’s fiscal stability on a shrug of the shoulders?

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    Mute David Stephan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:41 PM

    Bull, only a few weeks ago they were saying that voting NO would have no affect on the bailout or money supply…wtf? Is there any coherence from the government? Lies, scaremongering, mis-information creates an ignorant and fearful electorate.

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:11 PM

    @David … But who in the government was saying that voting “no” was consequence free? I’m afraid you’re making stuff up!

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:58 PM

    Ah come on Desmond, the rules are made by the members of the club. They’re not immutable laws of nature. We’re still in “the club”

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 29th 2012, 8:49 AM

    So you’re saying that the legal requirement that access to the ESM is contingent on membership of the scheme and ratification of the treaty is just words that can be changed at will! I really do hope that you have a better argument than this. Saying “No” to the treaty and then thinking that if we need further support the other Eurozone members will simply put the law aside and give us a digout really does beggar belief. This is the SF position and privately they admit that they don’t believe this fairyland economics.

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 30th 2012, 5:18 AM

    Yes, it’s just words. History has shown that these things can be changed.

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    Mute Mark Andrew Salmon
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:45 AM

    If Ireland votes no and is denied access to future funding then the govt will have no no choice but to burn the bondholders, a scenario which the ECB seem to regard as unimaginable. If that is the case then it stands to reason that they will give us money to ensure bondholders are paid. Or have I got this arseways?

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    Mute Mike Scott
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:42 PM

    No you haven’t got it arseways Mark Andrew! On the button, I’d say! There’s a massive brainwashing operation in progress here! It’s all bout protecting the wealthy gangsters!

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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:16 PM

    Correct, Mark. U use an apt word there, Mike Scott – “brainwashing”. Frighten “the little people”. As I said above, if 1.2m people don’t register, that’s a lot of votes. No political party is going to mess with that voting power.

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:42 PM

    Arseways, I’m afarid, Mark. There are no bondholders left to burn. They’ve pretty much all been paid off since SF, FG and FF voted to provide an unlimited bailout to them back in 2008. Even if the state were to default on the remaining debt of some €30 billion that has since been socialised, we would still be left with a current budget deficit between tax and spending of some €18 billion. Given that saying “No” to the treaty would bar us from ESM funding and default would turn the ECB tap off … where would we get the funding from to meet the shortfall in income over expenditure or keep are surviving banks afloat? Just asking, like!

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    Mute Paul Curran
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:43 AM

    Euro fascists No all the way !

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:37 PM

    Clearly someone who doesn’t understand the meaning of the word “fascist”.

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    Mute Paul Curran
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:23 PM

    Ah but I do, and I also have the unwitting ability to recognise a blueshirt Fine Gael traitor too Desmond!

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 29th 2012, 10:36 AM

    Another silly comment. When you have to resort to name-calling you really have lost the argument.

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    Mute Martin Grehan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:25 PM

    I’m fucking sick of the lies and threats these jokers produce on a daily basis. Creighton wouldn’t even talk to myself and other students in NUIM two weeks ago when she was here yet she feels perfectly fine throwing out idle threats from the pulpit of the media. Fuck off.

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:30 PM

    Given you are so articulate it’s amazing she didn’t stop to engage you in conversation.

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    Mute Martin Grehan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:33 PM

    Using the word fuck doesn’t display a lack of articulation. It displays anger. Anger at a woman who’s homophobic, whose lack of principles disgust me. Every single member of FG is disgusting in my eyes. They’d rather play political games than help a single person improve their lives. Nit pick all you like, fuckity fuck fuck fuck :)

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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:29 PM

    I’d say it was cowardice on her behalf for not answering you, Martin. I forgot she was homophobic. If she was a capable & competent poiltician, she would have jumped at the opportunity to debate & relish it. But – that’s what we are up against, eh ?

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    Mute Niall Flaherty
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:18 AM

    Lucinda does a great ‘worried school teacher’ look. She has had only one thing to say for the last five years and repeats it very chance she gets: ‘we must do exactly what we are told or the sky will fall in.’ She, and the other sheep like her, are the real problem now.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:53 AM

    Some of the above comments show why we have such a corrupt little country because no matter what deplorable acts political parties perform their followers can see no wrong in the parties actions.

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:07 AM

    By deplorable do you mean Ireland introducing a household charge like every other country in Europe? Or signing an agreement to run the country in a fiscally responsible manner? What is deplorable about either of those?

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:12 AM

    Every other country in Europe recieve something for their charge,have you read the treaty?

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    Mute Ultan Quirke
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:35 PM

    We have roads, streetlights, parking facilities, public amenities such as parks and beaches, a fire service and a police service, among other public services. It is inaccurate to suggest that we don’t get anything for our tax, and it is also inaccurate to say that we will not get anything for the household charge.

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 6:58 PM

    No Ultan, we don’t receive value for money for our taxes and as a society we are not good in forcing government accountability for how tax payer’s money is spent. The current protests are about more than just this specific tax.

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    Mute William Mcgee
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:56 AM

    Another attempt to blackmail the people of Ireland, time to let them know we are still here .

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    Mute Aidan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:51 AM

    Anyone know where I can get a big “NO” printed so I can park across the road from her house and stick it to the side of my car?

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    Mute Patrick Lite
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:41 PM

    A NO vote will be a vote of no confidence for FG/Lab… I’m voting No!

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    Mute corky2004
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:17 PM

    If Michael Collins could see how treacherous Fine Gael have become he’d be rolling in his grave.
    He and hundreds of other revolutionaries didn’t die only to see his country handed over to the Eurocrats before the centenary of the state!

    VOTE NO to foreign rule !!!!

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:20 AM

    We need more politicians like Lucinda. It’s people like this who represent the new Post-Bertie/Haughey era Ireland. More power to them implementing unpopular reform policy that they know hurts them politically, but they bite the bullet for the common good in the long run.
    Never did we see such courage from the last shower of corrupt mismanagers of the country, selling favours to their constituents for selfish popularity or worse. Ireland doesn’t know how to take its medicine.
    What’s most unfair about this charge are all the households that don’t have to pay it. Renters? Public housing? Why should a household being funded by the state not pay this?

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:34 AM

    Any thoughts on Enda sharing a platform with Dennis O Brien last week or should we forget that.Lucinda insisting the gov seeking a writedown of Anglo debt on V Brown even after Vincent played footage of Enda saying in the Dail they have not and will not seek a writedown of Anglo debt.FG are the same as FF .Same circus just different clowns.

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    Mute Jimmy Riddle
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:47 AM

    Just goes to show the only poster saying “We need more politicians like Lucinda” gets the referendum on the fiscal compact confused with the household charge. It’s dummies like you that voted this twisted cow into power.

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    Mute Ultan Quirke
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:32 PM

    @Norman, the organisers of the event invited both Enda and Denis O’Brien, so blame for that cannot fairly be shunted onto Enda

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    Mute Scarr
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:37 PM

    Scant on detail, big on bluff. The post reads like a press release. I call troll.

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    Mute Aldo
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    Mar 28th 2012, 4:48 PM

    Get a grip Arbitrasure. Politicians don’t care about us or this beautiful country. A politicians primary objective is to get re-elected. Everything else come second to that. Most politicians are not qualified for the posts they hold. There is very little lateral thinking involved in their decision making. They think that by introducing legislation / statutory instruments that it will solve the problem. NEWSFLASH. Wait for it…
    It doesn’t. Instead of finding meaningful / practical ways of addressing problems they go for the quick fix approach that will please the electorate and score them political points. I would go on but I know it will only fall on deaf ears. But you keep voting FG, seeing as they’re doing such a good job. I bet you’re really proud of yourself for voting them in. Keep up the good work. :-)

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    Mute Paul
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    Mar 28th 2012, 7:16 PM

    We do they are called FG/Lab

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    Mute Taidi Mcnally
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:14 PM

    Of course Lucinda wants to keep her ego trip job and lovely pension pot. OK for the hard nosed bitch with a gob as big as the deficit. Screw Europe. It’s just power crazed delusion on a bigger scale.

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    Mute Patrick Minford
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:55 PM

    The blonde has spoken

    but is there anybody listening, that is the question

    how long will it be before she contracts a nasty bit of foot and mouth disease? not long me thinks – that is why they are putting Gilmore on the case – they dont want to leave anything to chance!

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:26 PM

    Still don’t see an ‘on topic’ question to answer. Puerile comments yes, but that’s up to you.

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    Mute Aidan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 4:56 PM

    You say nothing but chatter constantly

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:41 PM

    It is disappointing. This forum is filled with hate, ignorance and insults.

    Very few contributors offering decent discussion; if you disagree with someone, explain your reasoning. Branding them a bitch or a liar or telling them to fuck off is just reflective of the worst, brainless rotten end of society. Surely people can do better? We need more these days than ignorant stupidity.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:48 PM

    You still haven’t replied to what i asked you ,just seem intent making sweeping generalisations

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    Mute Martin Grehan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:31 PM

    But telling people you dislike to fuck off makes you feel better.

    And you know what’s reflective of the brainless rotten end of society? Bertie Ahern, Michael Lowry, PJ Flynn, Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke, and on and on and on. They’d never tell you to fuck off an online forum but they’d sure as hell fuck you over for a brown envelope :)

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    Mute Sheila Byrne
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    Mar 28th 2012, 9:10 PM

    @ Arbitrasure

    So I assume you are including yourself in that statement above? forum filled with hate, ignorance an insults?

    I myself have all three above! But not in the way you state it!

    1. Hate; Yes, I hate, detest liars, bullies and self centred arseholes that think they are above me and others in the electorate. I, as a tax payer have a right to vent my feelings and anger towards these idiots, ill advised, ill educated morans, no life experience and very little political experience.

    2. Ignorance. Yes, but I am ignorant of some historical and current affairs. But I do try my best to learn as much as I can and part of that learning is communicating with others on a forum like this because I can read other peoples ideas and views. I may not agree with but I can read their point of view.

    3. Insults. I may have been bold and used a bad word or two, but that is out of pure frustration and anger because these individuals are not listening to us and don’t seem to care either.

    As far as I can see, I have turned your three negative words into something positive, which I feel is a good thing. It’s good to talk. I hope, at some stage you will see and try to understand my/our point of view, maybe not agree, but listen. (Not sure if you were aiming your comment at the boys above but I felt I needed to say something.

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    Mute Scarr
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:12 PM

    It’s a no from me, Ted.

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:56 AM

    I don’t know the facts. Do you? It is naive to make assumptions.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:03 AM

    What facts Enda on a platform Dennis O Brien on the same platform on the same day in front of the NY stock exchange floor on television on the papers sorry what facts do you need?

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    Mute Ultan Quirke
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:38 PM

    Your consistent reference to this is wearing, as it is not the issue that the article addresses. In order for Ireland to regain our international reputation and credibility as a place to do business, which we MUST do in order to regain access to the regular sovereign borrowing channels and to secure the foreign investment vital for a strong recovery, it is important for the country to present a good image and be visible in the world of international business. Are you seriously suggesting that Enda should have refused his invitation, and damaged our credibility still more?

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 28th 2012, 7:02 PM

    Ultan: man jumps off cliff shouting “but I can fly”. Do you believe him, or will gravity prevail?

    Every single time we’ve made these stupid decisions and insisted that we can pay back enormous sums of money, we’ve lost credibility with the markets. It’s not about how macho we are and how much punishment we can take. It’s about confronting reality and dealing with the unsustainable debt and deficit.

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    Mute Taidi Mcnally
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:48 PM

    Screw the promissory notes deal. Its a pathetic smoke screen and only a delay in the paying of it to try and get a few house points all round and secure the referendum. Some mugs out there are easily fooled. Total debt write down is what is needed here. Let the investors who gambled and lost take the pain. If anyone around here is actually interested in JUSTICE being served to ALL the people that’s the only thing we should be voting on come the end of May.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:10 PM

    Well said Noonan gets a full right down of Anglo debt might consider giving my number 2 to the yes candidate.

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:52 PM

    Write down is not available other than by way of unilateral default. If we default the current funding arrangements provided by the ECB, EU and IMF would be turned off. The current deficit in the state’s finances amounts to €18 billion between what is taken in tax and what goes on public spending. Given that default would choke off the funding of the state by the Troika, how then would you fund the deficit between taxes and spending?

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 5:51 PM

    @Well i guess if we defaulted we won’t be paying back the troika then or am i wrong?What would happen to the Euro then and aso French and German i have a fair idea.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 5:53 PM

    Sorry meant what happen to the Euro and French/German banks

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 6:30 PM

    OK Norman, so we default on the promissory notes and on the money the ECB is using to keep our retail banks afloat. That still leaves us with a fiscal deficit of €18 billion. Given that default will shut off any further funding from the troika and keep us out of the bond markets for a long time, where exactly do you propose to find the money to fund the deficit? Or do you propose to collapse what’s left of our public services and social welfare to close the deficit?

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 29th 2012, 12:35 AM

    We should be able to run the country on 39bn. Like we did in 2002.

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    Mute Michael J Hartnett
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    Mar 28th 2012, 4:57 PM

    Yes Lucinda we intend sending that signal of commitment. Its called a red light.stop! And if we sent it I hope the political class are able to understand. This is a great opertunity for us to stand up for ourselves.

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 8:00 PM

    STOP the Fiscal Treaty ratification
    STOP paying for the bank bailout loans
    STOP Ireland’s access to troika and ECB funding
    STOP funding public services and social protection

    It is indeed a great opportunity to cry, “Stop!” and stand up for ourselves. And he harm you will have caused will all have been with it, no doubt!

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:13 AM

    Norman I guess you are suggesting Enda knew O’Brien would be there in advance? And Enda should have thus boycotted the appearance? Very sensible.
    ‘Irish premier boycotts opening bell appearance as Irish businessmen are too corrupt to even stand beside’.
    Great message for future investors in the country, would have been a real smart move.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:22 AM

    I begining to wonder is it blind party loyalty or stupidity that you are guility of.But to your veiw he do the country a disservice if he refused to stand beside a corrupt businessman.Did you think before you commented or are so blind to the obvious you will just keep towing the party line.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:32 AM

    Lastly do you not know how to directly answer a comment or in your rush like “youbetterpayup” to set up an account to berate anyone against the HHC or fiscal treaty you just didn’t bother with such nicities.Finally why hide behind a twitter account be brave come into the light.

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    Mute Mike Scott
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:39 PM

    Hey, at least he’d have been honest! Or is honesty not something that readily relates to Irish politicians?

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    Mute Declan Carroll
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    Mar 28th 2012, 3:13 PM

    Correct, Norman. That commentator should post under his/her own real name. The said commentator sprung up just the other day. I’m very suspicious.

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:12 PM

    Norman you didn’t seem to have any question to answer.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:16 PM

    Have you lost the ability to read i asked why hide behind a twitter account .In your rush to set up an account could you not make yourself aware how to use the “reply” function.

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    Mute hjGfIgAq
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:55 PM

    Hi there. Can I remind you to stay on topic while commenting please? The purpose of this section is to discuss the issue at hand, not to make personal comments about other users.

    Thanks.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:46 PM

    Sorry Jenifer i will try to be nice,and stay ob topic

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:46 AM

    The facts are we need to collect far more than a mere EUR100 from each household. More like EUR10000 if we are to start slowly pulling out of this overspending mess, and that’s just not possible.. Less to do with the banking crisis; our country is simply economically too small for the money we have grown accustomed to spending on public services and social welfare.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0323/1224313766388.html

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:03 PM

    Are you going to address my reply or still hide behind twitter.

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    Mute Aldo
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    Mar 28th 2012, 5:05 PM

    Regarding your remark about this “small country”. We were running budget surpluses up until 2007/2008. Fact.
    The banking crisis and the foolish guarantee scheme has a HUGE effect on our debt levels. Fact.
    Now, this “small country” of ours; how easy will it be to get our debt levels down to 60% of GDP and balance the budget to .5%, given that we have such a small workforce? The fiscal compact favours the big countries, with bigger workforces. Budgetary discipline was there all along (Maastricht, I think) France and Germany flouted it. We adhered to it. This fiscal compact aims to fine countries for not balancing their budgets. Great. Adding more debt to debt. Makes perfect sense…

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    Mute Taidi Mcnally
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    Mar 28th 2012, 4:27 PM

    Default away. Cant get much worse than what’s it going to be like after the next 10 austerity budgets. Unless of course you’re one of the chosen few not affected.

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    Mute Aidan
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    Mar 28th 2012, 4:57 PM

    Agreed

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 6:35 PM

    Current troika funding allows us to run a deficit of €18 billion. Default would collapse that funding. Given that there would be no new avenues for funding the deficit, the only alternative would be a savage destruction of public services and social welfare protection. Please tell me why you think default would produce a better result for public services and social protection than the current arrangements.

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    Mute skeolawn
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    Mar 29th 2012, 12:37 AM

    Your solution is to keep borrowing?

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 29th 2012, 10:43 AM

    Yes, skeolawn, my solution is to keep borrowing and to gradually bring the state’s finances within the terms of the Stability & Growth Pact/Fiscal Treaty. Every advanced economy in the world maintains a borrowing requirement. The issue is not whether a State borrows to fund the difference between income and expenditure and investment over time, but whether that borrowing is sustainable. The alternative is to close down whole swathes of the public services and drastically reduce social protection and pensions.

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:06 PM

    Has David Hall’s case against the promissory notes got a hope? That could be helpful in addressing a piece of the problem.

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:04 AM

    Riddle you might want to read the article. Household charge is discussed.

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    Mute Martin Mac
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    Mar 28th 2012, 11:54 AM

    Question. If we vote YES will that mean houses & buy to let houses/apartments in huge debt will get repossessed in Ireland? Or does a NO vote mean that Buy to let houses/apartments in huge debt will get repossessed? Which vote would equal repossessions of houses in huge debt in Ireland?

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 28th 2012, 12:24 PM

    The Fiscal Treaty has nothing to say about repossessions.

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    Mute Michael J Hartnett
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    Mar 28th 2012, 8:09 PM

    Same old rhetoric from the yes camp. I see you flying the Norwegian flag. They are not in the EU & they do ok.

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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Mar 29th 2012, 10:45 AM

    Norway has oil and a huge sovereign wealth fund to buttress their public services against economic shocks. They also tax their citizens at significantly higher rates than we do in Ireland in order to fund significantly better public services..

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    Mute Arbitrasure
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:45 AM

    I’d guess Enda, when invited to the podium for the NYSE opening bell, should have asked to see the list of other invitees. Then should he have refused to participate or demand O’Brien be uninvited? I wonder will he do so in future?

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:48 AM

    I think you already know the answer to your own question.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:49 AM

    Are you really that naive to think Enda wouldn’t know who he would be sharing the platform with.He has handlers and advisers to tell him.

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    Mute Mike Scott
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:35 PM

    I heard Enda actually paid to ring that bell!! Begging and grovelling didn’t cut it with the Yanks!!

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    Mute aisling quigley
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:56 PM

    Read this please very interested and very obvious if you have a mind of your own

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    Mute aisling quigley
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    Mar 28th 2012, 1:59 PM

    Were dis my link go???

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:06 PM

    @Ultan Quirke sorry if found a legit question tedious.I asked only one question about Enda on the platform the other two references i made were by way of reply.Since you ask i do feel it sends out a bad impression of our country when our premier is willing to share a platform with a person who has been found to enrich a senior government minister for his own benefit.Also to my knowledge Enda served in the same government as that former minister.Your ref to the HHC i do not believe there is any benefit in paying this charge other than enriching bondholders and you will not convince me otherwise.Sorry i took so long to reply to you.

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    Mute aisling quigley
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:43 PM

    Maybe when we the gov finally realise that we are not paying this, we could as a nation could each give a donation to temple street childrens hospital at least then we know the money is going to help our own and not some foreign bond holder or banker!?
    Just a thought, time to start looking after ourselves and our fellow country men/women and children!

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    Mute Sheila Byrne
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    Mar 28th 2012, 2:35 PM

    @Mike

    I don’t know much about the younger crowd, of what I have seen of them, I don’t like, every one of them are power hungry. They can’t wait to be rid of the aul ones and aul chaps so they can make things run better in this country. They know better (reminds me of teens!)

    Sadly, I have watched Ms Joan Burton and I am disappointed with her since they got into power. Yes, she’s trying her best to fix all the crap that has gone on in Social Welfare for many years, but I think her beliefs are being left behind. I don’t think she’s happy.

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    Mute Anne Clarke
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    Mar 28th 2012, 10:48 PM

    It’s amazing give a little power and lucinda does a u turn!! Put your threats in a pipe and smoke it!!! Send yourself a strong message!

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