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They could be our wives, our daughters, our sisters, our mothers, our nieces, our neighbours or people you go to work with today. They could be the wife or relative of the guy you play football with.
TURNING FROM SOUTH King Street onto St Stephen’s Green in Dublin city centre this morning, you would have seen a smiling Richard Bruton handing out leaflets to passers-by during the early rush.
Every so often he stopped someone and asked how they were voting in the referendum.
A few metres away from the Minister for Education was Senator Jerry Buttimer doing the exact same. And just by the Luas stop where thousands got off to head to work were Ministers Simon Harris and Eoghan Murphy.
Last week, this would have been a fine sunny morning in Dublin but there was an unwelcome chill in the air as many walked past on their way to work but many – spotting the familiar faces of the Ministers – did stop to talk.
A men’s issue, too
Speaking to assembled media after speaking to the public, the Fine Gael Men for Yes cohort of senators and TDs said that their canvassing this morning was about emphasising how important it is that men realise how the Eighth Amendment affects them.
Ruling out undecideds, last week’s Irish Times/Ipsos Mori opinion poll had 58% of men saying they’d vote yes in the referendum and 42% saying they’d vote no. In contrast, 67% of women said they’d vote yes, while 33% said they’d vote no.
And, with one in five people saying they haven’t made up their mind about how they’ll vote yet, there are still many votes to be won on both sides between now and polling day on 25 May.
The politicians all said that men could not think that the Eighth Amendment is something that doesn’t affect them.
Minister for Health Simon Harris, for example, said that “men cannot abstain from this debate” and have a “responsibility to engage in this”. He said:
They should ask themselves the question: ‘if it was a women in our life, who we know, would we want her to be treated with compassion or care or would we want her to be feel the cold shoulder that the Eighth Amendment has presented to Irish women?’
Harris said that, when we hear of the numbers of women going abroad for abortions or taking abortion pills, it’s easy to think of them as an “abstract concept”.
Simon Harris speaking at Fine Gael's Men for Yes event pic.twitter.com/Y8IA2zPHQ3
— Sean Murray (@SeanMJourno) April 25, 2018
“But these are women we know,” he said, adding how it could be family members, close friends, work colleagues or the wife or partner of a friend. “This is an issue that affects all citizens in this country.”
Bruton also said that talking about the Eighth Amendment was something men sometimes shirked from.
“I think a lot of men are maybe inclined to opt out and say ‘this is something that doesn’t really involve us’,” he said. “I think it’s vitally important. Half of the electorate are men. We need to get this across the line.”
Referencing the work of the Citizens’ Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee, Bruton added that “the more people investigate the issue… the more they’re convinced of the need to make a change”.
This was echoed by Housing Minister Eoghan Murphy who said that by reaching out to people like they were doing this morning, and by knocking on doors in the evening, to give them information “the more people start to realise they need to vote yes”.
Murphy added that they were talking specifically to men today to make sure that they are “engaged” on the issue, and say that it is their responsibility to inform themselves and check the facts, rather than trust what they may see on social media about the referendum.
Making a choice
Referencing the people who hadn’t made up their mind yet, Minister Jim Daly said that there’s a “huge middle ground of people out there”.
He said it was up to politicians to reach out to these people and emphasise how the Eighth Amendment has, as Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan said today, “served Irish women particularly badly”.
Daly said: “[It's about asking yourself] if this was my daughter in the morning with a crisis pregnancy, what would I want for her?
Would I want her to able to have a termination here? Or would I want her to go under a cloud of darkness and fear and guilt abroad to deal with it. For me, that’s what it is about.
Simon Harris said that politicians and campaigners should have the difficult questions put to them as it ‘s such a complex and sensitive” issue but that there was also a duty for those on the No side to explain why “the status quo is fine”.
He said: “It’s very hard to try and state that the Eighth Amendment has served women well in this country. I would respectfully ask where are their plans to deal with victims of rape or incest?
What would they suggest for a 15-year-old that’s been raped, because currently in this country she has to carry her baby to full term. What would they suggest for the three women today that will take the abortion pill, potentially in their bedroom alone with no medical supervision? What would they do to address the fact that at least 9 women are travelling from this jurisdiction to the UK today?
The Fine Gaelers also emphasised on a number of occasions how this is not just a Dublin issue, but one that has affected “every town in the country”.
Laois TD Flanagan was asked if he’d found a difference between the views of people in his own constituency and in the capital.
He said: “What I see is people reflecting on the issue at hand, and taking a far more compassionate approach. There’s not a rural, urban divide. Ireland’s become a small place.”
And with that, the politicians posed for a picture (Eoghan Murphy took a selfie) and sped off in the direction of Leinster House.
Fine Gael are following the example of parties Fianna Fáil by not putting up posters on the streets of cities and towns.
However, while their advisors remained close by throughout canvassing this morning, this was an example of how the party’s Ministers, TDs and Senators are taking part in the boots-on-the-ground campaign across the country for the repeal of the Eighth Amendment.
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You can hardly blame some men for checking out of the debtate as for the last number of years we have been told it is none of men’s business and we should know our place. Now they regret their virulent misandry.
@Brian Madden: “virulent misandry” good lord. Men not controlling women is virulent misandry??
@Brian Madden: Don’t worry Brian. Most women are very happy to receive men’s support in their right to make their own choices.
@Veronica: enough hysteria ensues when walkaway dads abandon their responsibilities, now you say dads, potential or otherwise have no say! Are they involved or are they not?
@Tony Harris: see, this is never about the child with you people, is it. Your best comparison is a man refusing to pay for or take care of a child that is born and exists in this world.
This whole debate has nothing to do with children or their welfare, it is entirely about controlling women. Age old sexism.
@Tony Harris: What is the logical conclusion of your view? When a woman wants a termination and a man doesn’t, what do you suggest happens?
@Deirdre Fjord: that’s a hard one. I believe if there is good reason to terminate a pregnancy, health reasons, life expectancy, quality of life, than let it be. I would have a huge issue for termination without a valid reason. I’m being told I’m a sexist etc. because I believe a mother and father should have a say! I’m told I want to control women. I do not want to control any women, the exception being if she wants to terminate my unborn child for no reason! Sex, making love, whatever u want to call it can have and end product! I do believe we all enter into the act knowing that. If one is so against the end product, abstain?
@Tony Harris: Do you think for one moment that women have abortions for the fun of it?
@Tony Harris: Pretty vague there, Tony. Although I suppose the bit where you admit that you’d want to control a woman who wanted abort your unborn child “for no reason” is my answer.
Abortion never happens for no reason, Tony. There are just reasons you feel aren’t relevant to you.
If your logical conclusion is that people should abstain from sex, you’ve got your head in the clouds.
@Tony Harris: You should abstain from sex with a woman who might have an abortion or ensure YOU wear a condom or have the snip.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: With that same comment why don’t you have your womb removed?
@Dave Doyle:
Different women have abortion for different reasons.
Honest ethical women who care about their children do not have abortions – or only under extreme circumstances – i.e. threat to life of mother / FFA.
Other women do it for frivolous reasons – total lack of responsibility – lifestyle choices – selfish reasons without any medical or justifiable cause other than expedience / convenience.
You cannot generalise all – as all women are different and so are the reasons.
That is why abortion on demand without consideration of reasons – is morally and ethical bankrupt – as it ignores the baby right to life – dignity and existence – and supersedes it with nihilism – selfishness – expedience – convenience and disregard for the mothers own living child…
And the Fathers child too !!
@HelloGoogleTracking: an embryos ‘right to life is debatable’.A woman’s isn’t…Isn’t it a typical April’s day outside :-)
“Honest ethical women” = trolling
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Spare me your condescension – you are in no position to do so.
Yes some women are honest – other are not.
Yes some women are ethical – others are not.
No trolling – just being accurate and specific in my expression……or do you believe all women are some divine creatures incapable of bad qualities or self centred evil. Not true – women can be equally evil as men in every respect. And need laws applying to them too,
The unborns right to life is not debatable – it is there – under our constitution.
Also under any honest appraisal of human rights – and human life – as unborn human beings are human after all.
Why should mothers be granted a “right to kill” – without restriction of their own children???
Explain that to me.
I can understand exceptional cases of FFA / threat to mothers life – no one argues against that. However that is not what this is about….this is about abortion on demand !!
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: You’re too blinded by dogma to see your own hypocrisy. You’re a joke.
@HelloGoogleTracking: You make me laugh,young lad..
Why should mothers be granted a “right to kill” – without restriction of their own children???
Women can protect themselves from the physical/mental harms that a pregnancy/childbirth brings them.They can do this by refusing the use of their organs to sustain a ‘life’ that they don’t want inside of them :) They do this by procuring a safe,legal abortion…
@Tony Harris: Be careful Tony, the word ‘hysteria’ derives from the Greek word for ‘womb’, hence ‘hysterectomy’, and the feminazis might accuse you of mysogony for using it!
@Stephen Devlin: Why would I have my womb removed? I induced a miscarriage in my early 20s and I’m a mother.
Even if I wanted my womb removed no hospital would do it at this age.
I’m pro choice so again, why would I have my womb removed?
If you don’t want a woman youre sleeping with to have an abortion, don’t get a woman pregnant who might have an abortion. See!?
If you’re anti abortion, keep your sperm to yourself.
@Thought Criminal: No hypocrisy. My womb, my decision. My body being used, my decision. My pregnancy, my decision.
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Are you mad?
A woman who conceives their own child, is not a victim of some parasite attacking their organs !!!!
What are you on about?
They have their child growing – that’s what being a mother is.
You can not refuse your own child – that is impossible … all you can do is pay a doctor to kill it, or deliberately take poison to kill your child.
Both options are pre meditated killing of a human being = wrong by any ethical system of right and wrong that has ever existed.
You have no values or principles – a true nihilist
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: You’re an out and out hypocrite.
@HelloGoogleTracking: well said. Back you 100%.
@Brian Madden: There should be more leeway in terminating unwise pregnancies but making room for abortion on demand stinks. I think the only wise thing to do is abstain in protest at such a lazy proposal. I mean, who in their right mind is going to believe a gaggle of politicians canvassing in the streets.
Of course it affects men. It affected me when I had to travel with my wife for medical reasons. Husbands, boyfriends, partners are all affected unless they’ve a heart of stone. For the TFMR and more it’s vitally important we vote yes and repeal this barbaric law.
@Danny Sherrard: we are not being asked to vote on just the hard cases, we are being asked to legalise abortion on demand for any reason at all up to 12 weeks.
@Danny Sherrard: and then potentially up to 6 months under “mental health” grounds as is the case in England where 1 in 5 babies are aborted.
@Brian Madden: We are being ask to simply to repeal the 8th. That’s it.
Any legislation the government try to introduce will have to be passed in the Dail and could potentially have to go to another referendum.
Don’t worry Brian. Irish women will still travel and use illegal drugs to have abortions.
@Danny Sherrard: Well said
@Brian Madden: That 1 in 5 claim has totally been proven false and it’s people like you spreading false information on such an important issue that should be truly ashamed.
If you have to lie to fight your case – you’re a lost cause.
@Brian Madden: aside from the incorrect facts about numbers and terms (which is not what you’re voting for – if you think you are voting for this, maybe stay away from the polls), the Constitution blocks every case, not just the hard cases. We know that young girls killing themselves after being raped and women carrying babies to term when brain dead are not considered hard cases by the”no”side, but most men have empathy with most women, mothers and daughters and it’s those men that need to get out and vote.
@Brian Madden: that’s a complete lie. There will be no abortions allowed up to 6 months on “mental grounds”
@Danny Sherrard: Ground E abortions in UK account for 3200 of 185000, that 1.7%. TFMR fall within that category. Also with that category are Down Syndrome about 800 abortions (annually) and basically any ‘defect or anomily’. 9 abortions in the UK 2016 were carried out for Cleft Palate and one as the unborn baby was missing an arm. All the above stats can be easily googled.
If this vote was was for TFMR solely then im sure it’d pass, but it isnt.
This referendum is to remove the equal right to life for all the unborn, the only right they currently have. If the risk to the life of a mother is in danger doctors must act and an abortion is allowed, 30 or so happen a year. Unrestricted abortion is wrong, that’s why i’m voting No.
@eric nelligan: Clause C of the UK abortion law states that : ‘the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuation of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman’.
have you got access to every woman’s medical records ?
@Ooby Dooby: That one in five figure has not been “proven false.”. The yes campaign is just trying to obfuscate that fact by saying that the abortion rate is 16.7/1000 women in the UK. What they don’t say is that that 1000 women includes all women who aren’t actually pregnant in the first place. And as we all know, women who are not pregnant are no more capable of having abortions than men are. There were 190,000 abortions in England and Wales in 2016 according to the Chief Medical Officer there.
@eric nelligan: you mention ‘cleft palate ‘ – was there any other serious malformation detected in those 9 cases ? You don’t know,do you ?
@Ooby Dooby: WRONG FALSE PRO CHOICE/REPEAL/ABORTION LIES.
figures for UK,
Abortion in England and Wales 190000
Abortion in scortland 12000
Total 202000
Births in England and Wales 696000
Scotland 550000.
total 751000
Maths as follows;
202 x 100/953 = 21.2%
if you remove Scotland the figure is higher.
21.2% is actually even greater than 1 in 5.
@Andrew Eager: It doesn’t matter how many women end their unwanted/wanted pregnancy in the UK,not one of them was any of yours or my business…
Portugal’s abortion rates have gone down since they decriminalised abortion up to 10 weeks ..This happened just over a decade ago..Why don’t the “pro life” peeps ever mention those stats
@Ooby Dooby:
Does 191,000 sound better.
@eric nelligan: Plus 50 women have had eight abortions each ,and some women are having up to 3 abortions in a single year.
@Elvis King: so what if they had 8 abortions ? What’s it to you ? And you have already been told that those stats go back over 40 years..
@Francis Mc Carthy: Portugals birth and abortion rate peaked in 2010, 100K births and 20k abortions, a rate of 16.5%.
In 2016 it was 87k births and 16K abortions. 15.5%
Most developed countries are experiencing a drop due to improved education and contraception.
An tiny 1% improvement but still a lot of unnecessary deaths.
@Brian Madden: why are you comparing us to england? We were told if we voted yes for divorce, the rates would be through the roof and father’s wouldn’t see their kids. We were told that same sex marriage was really about surrogacy and that every child deserves a mother and gay men would be going to India by the planefull and our footbaths would be full of gay men pushing prams. Now we are told that no pregnant woman is safe as she would be swiped from the street and forced to have an abortion. Women would be having abortions on their lunch break etc etc. The reality is that the no side have very few arguments. They are running with a baby being aborted as the woman goes into labour. It’s all about murder and killing and they are trying to scaremonger and guilt people into voting no.
@Elvis King: And whats that as a percentage of the total abortions carried out? 0.1% maybe?
Says it all that you have to ignore the 99.9%
@Francis Mc Carthy: so what if they had 8 abortions? The main plank of togetherforYes at the moment is Trust women, compassion, care etc.
8 abortions would seem to be the antithesis the reasons for voting Yes.
@eric nelligan:It peaked at 20,000 & is now at 16,000 ..
I asked you a question regards those 9 women getting ‘cleft palate’ diagnosis of their pregnancies -were you sitting in with those 9 women when they were given the devastating news ? Was there any other serious malformations with them ?
@eric nelligan ; yup,so what? Are you saying that we shouldn’t trust all women because of a few women having multiple abortions ? wow!
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: If the 8th goes there’ll be no other referendums Ciara. That’s important to know.
@Brian Madden: the legislation proposed by this government is a near carbon copy of that which is in place in England where 1 in 5 babies is terminated in the womb.
@Francis Mc Carthy:Stats are stats , its abortion on demand , which ever way you try to dress it up, Its wrong whichever way you look at it
@Brian Madden: The crucial point Brian is “near” – not exact. As I understand it there is a significant different between the “health grounds” specified for a 24 week abortion. You’re not comparing like with like.
@Brian Madden: it’s all hearsay and scaremongering. Taken out of the Iona institute handbook
@Elvis King: I honestly don’t care what way that you see it..
@Brian Madden: Quote the reference for “1 in 5 babies” being aborted in England.
@eric nelligan: Those women who had 8 abortions might have mental health issues. No one knows.
@Francis Mc Carthy: I didnt answer the ‘cleft palate’ question as it is unnecessary stupid and solely designed to deflect. Of course i dont know the full medical history of these 9 cases, they’d hardly publish them, do have heard of patient confidentiality haven’t you?
Cleft palate is listed as the Main reason under Ground E
@Brian Madden: The fact is that abortions happen in Ireland by accessing pills on line, with all the dangers it entails, or women travel to get one. Are you ok as long as abortions are by pills, or exported to another country?
@eric nelligan: it is not a stupid question.You are the person that is saying that 9 women terminated their pregnancies for ‘cleft palate’ ..In fact,you are showing the exact same ignorance that Joanna Jepson showed back in 2003.. Have you ever heard of her ?
“The Cleft Lip and Palate Association accepted the CPS verdict.” <-maybe you should ,too :)
"Our concern was that if it was beyond all doubt that all it was a cleft lip and palate, then we could not understand why a decision to terminate had been taken," said the chief executive, Gareth Davies.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/mar/17/health.healthandwellbeing
@Francis Mc Carthy: The decriminalization of abortion in Portugal was a very positive step . To put things in its due perspective, hundreds of women died until then, some had health problems for life due to backstreet abortion by non qualified butchers that profited from women and their partners that opted for a voluntary interruption of pregnancy, why they chose to is not up to us to scutinise or judge. Unlike Ireland we did not have a UK to travel to neither did we have any other choice but these butchers .
I hope that this referendum finally decriminalises abortion in Ireland so that women, their parners, their families do not have to go through the abject cruelty of being exported alone to the UK jeopardising their mental and physivcal health. I cannot vote here, but I am with all Irish that will vote to repeal the 8th. .
Thanks for the added info ,Isabel :) – & also for you being with the people that want to repeal the 8th …
Even if 1 in 5 babies were being aborted in the UK (which is a proven lie), so what? Those abortions were done because the woman chose to do it and she had a good reason because she no longer wished to be pregnant.
@Brian Madden: Yes of course, you’re dead right, we would obviously be the single exception in the world. We’d never follow in the footsteps of the UK, the US, Canada, France, Germany, etc, etc, etc, now would we?
@Dave Doyle: Anyone with a basic understanding of maths can work it out in a few minutes using the official stats provided online by the British Goverment relating to live births, stillbirths, and abortions. However, you have to want to treat the subject seriously in order to go to even that small amount of research, and I have found, unfortunately. that most pro-repealers are more interested in scaremongering, throwing out the most harrowing of hypothetical hard cases, blaming everything except the weather on the Catholic Church, and being generally abusive, condescending or dismissive, to anyone who disagrees with them.
@eric nelligan: I suggest you look up cleft palates. There are varying degrees of cleft palate and the associated health issues. I don’t think you know what’s involved.
@eric nelligan: That’s like saying we can’t trust men because some rape.
@Francis Mc Carthy: That is a disgusting attitude to have. So what if they aborted 8 potential babies? You are warped and have confirmed my decision to vote no.
@eric nelligan: If you insist on using facts, provide the context also. Stop cherrypicking information to suit your agenda.
Repeat unintended pregnancy and subsequent abortion is a complex issue associated with increased age as it allows longer for exposure to pregnancy risks (Table B)”
Source:
@Anonymous Education: Have you Read the Legislation????
I have … and it allows for abortion up to full term on maternal health grounds. It doesn’t specify what they are. FULL TERM. A baby fully grown. Think about that.
I will be voting NO.
@Brian Madden: Number 15: Pregnant king foot fetus. The last thing you’d want in your pregnant woman is an unborn fetus. But as it turns out, that might be what you get. A no johnny dandy guy uploaded real good dicking anonymously to the consentual woman showcasing his feet in a plastic bin of lettuce. With the statement: “I don’t think we should have this child” Admittedly, he had shoes on.
But that’s even worse.
The post went live at 11:38 PM on July 16, and a mere 20 minutes later, the Woman in question was alerted to the rogue dandy boi. At least, I hope he’s rogue. How did it happen? Well, the BK employee hadn’t removed the Exif data from the uploaded photo, which suggested the culprit was somewhere in Mayfield Heights, Ohio. This was at 11:47. Three minutes later at 11:50, the Burger King branch address was posted with wishes of happy unemployment. 5 minutes later, the news station was contacted by another 4channer. And three minutes later, at 11:58, a link was posted: BK’s “Tell us about us” online forum. The foot photo, otherwise known as exhibit A, was attached. Cleveland Scene Magazine contacted the BK in question the next day. When questioned, the breakfast shift manager said “Oh, I know who that is. He’s getting fired.” Mystery solved, by 4chan. Now we can all go back to eating our fast food in peace
ALL unborn children have a natural right to life,i dont agree its not a mens issue ,these unborn children are the offspring of the nation ,any nation is made up of communities and we all have a roll to protect and uphold the values and traditions handed down to us .nothing is more important than the right to life ,the right to co exist .i for one will not be bullied by the neo liberal european agenda to deny unborn children their basic human right .vote no to repeal and send a message to varadkar and his merry men that above all else irish people beleive in the right of fair play and decency .the denigration and the dehumanizing of unborn children must stop.
@Anthony Gallagher: We ALL have the natural right to life. What we don’t have is the right to use someone elses body for that reason.
@Anthony Gallagher: As pointed out to you dozens of times, if it is unborn it is not a child by definition. It is either an embryo (when the vast majority of abortions take place), or a foetus.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: And what happens to someone if they’re forced into that position by two other people? To my knowledge no-one has ever asked to be conceived. Perhaps you can advise me otherwise?
@Andrew Eager:consent to sex is not consent to a pregnancy.
@The Risen: Are you the thought control police? Only dictionary definitions allowed instead of the actual language people use to express their thoughts? It is rather disturbing your obsession with not allowing anyone to say unborn child/children, as if language needs to be controlled and controlled by you, in order to get this referendum to pass.
@wrong side: Are the correct definitions not important in such a serious debate?
‘ It is rather disturbing your obsession with not allowing anyone to say unborn child/children’
Now you’re just being silly. How can I ‘not allow’ somebody to say anything whatsoever they choose on a public comments section. I do reserve the right, however, to point out where they are using emotive, incorrect terms for effect, rather than actual correct definitions.
Hope that clears it up for you x
@The Risen: as i have said to you many times before ,you know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
@The Risen: Not at all apart from the emptiness of your position. “…emotive, incorrect terms for effect,…” That would be your interpretation but maybe, just maybe, people actually think in those terms and not how you decide they should think or what language they can use
@Andrew Eager: And what if a woman is forced to have sex and gets pregnant? Would you be ok with that? Maybe a 13 year old girl is raped? Would you if she was forced to remain pregnant?
The girl in the X case. Would you have prevented her traveling too?
@Anthony Gallagher: Did an unborn child tell you that or are you assuming it would if it could form a thought and articulate it?
Women tell us they need the right to choose what is in their best interests, I support them in that right. Those women are real live human beings who can tell us what they want or need.
Who are you to deny them that right?
@wrong side: Right so, I see I need to do the ladybird version for you.
A rough guide (incubator baby being the obvious exception)
Born, outside woman, being breastfed or bottle fed = Baby
Preborn/unborn, inside woman, being kept alive on life support = Embryo/Foetus
Any unborn living human in the womb is the biological child of two parents – a mother and a father – and has unique life – DNA – and will continue to grow and develop until and adult – unless they die / are deliberately killed.
As such whether in the womb or out – they are still the child of their parents – a mother with their child still in the womb – is still a mother – and the child exists.
Next – no woman is “forced” anything – the question is whether we as a society allow mothers to kill their children for any reason at all – or we dont. I personally do not agree with allowing unrestricted rights for mothers to execute children – and would only consider abortion for rare and exception cases and justifiable reasons.
- FFA / threat to mothers life….
Having a law against murder is not equivalent to “forcing” people not to commit murder. It is simply making the act illegal – for the benefit of society and respecting others rights to life.
Equally – making abortion illegal with justifiable reasons – is the exact same.
All the rest of arguments on pro side are corrupt / disingenuous / outright spin / ethically bankrupt / myopic / one sided considering only the mother.
As such they are devoid of values – as by definition are compromised – and not everyone will compromise human rights and respect for life.
especially for any reason at all including lifestyle – or pathetic self centred irresponsible reasons….
@HelloGoogleTracking: Are you a man by any chance?
@HelloGoogleTracking: I have DNA,I’m a unique life,so does that give me the right to use another persons organs without their permission to sustain my life ?
Answers on a postcard :-)
@Francis Mc Carthy:
You do not have the right to kill any other human being – do you agree?
As a woman you have a responsibility to your own child if you conceive it with its father – this is biological – and you should love your child and not want to kill it obviously.
Your point is empty straw man argument – devoid of ethics – honesty and humanity – pathetic
@The Risen:
Yes I am male – so what?
@Anthony Gallagher: I agree with you. In addition, pro-repealers constantly come out with the ‘it’s no one’s business’ or ‘it’s her choice’ line. Yet if a woman was to choose to do away with one of her born children, I assume that line wouldn’t apply. They wouldn’t defend her ‘choice’ then, and say everyone should just mind their own business. So I would ask them, when does a human life become society’s business?
@The Risen: The constant dehumanising language used by pro-repealers (never use a simple term where a technical Latin term is available) towards the unborn is tedious and typical of those who seek to the justify the unjustifiable. Slave owners refused to acknowledge the humanity of their slaves; Nazis refused to acknowledge the humanity of Jews, Slavs and Gypsies; and the Hutu refused to acknowledge the humanity of the Tutsi when they wanted to slaughter them; to name a few examples, and now it’s being employed by those who want to deny the humanity of the unborn. Who ever asked a pregnant woman, ‘When’s your foetus due?’ or ‘Do you know what sex the embryo is?’ or ‘Is your second trimester, non-viable cluster of cells kicking yet?’
@HelloGoogleTracking: – you were caught out,lad .
If my life is threatened then i have a right to protect myself.If that meant taking the life of another human being,then so be with it.I will argue my case in the court of law :)
by the way,an embryo is not another human being .Did you not know this ?
@Terry McLaughlin: slavery was outlawed because it took away the bodily autonomy of a born person..
Nazis made it a higher criminal offence if the “Ayran women” had an abortion..you could call them ‘forced birthers’ too..
Human embryo and human foetus – who’s dehumanising ?
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Everyone agrees with abortion if mothers life in danger and no choice obviously – stop the deflection
This is about abortion on demand without good reason.
Embryos are human beings too – this is a fact whether you like it or not.
They are part of the species of homo sapien – living children of 2 human parents.
They can be nothing else other than human – embryo refers only to stage of development of the human being.
Please try and be honest if u can
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: who is “we” in this instance? The life inside didn’t decide to invade the woman’s womb without consent. It is not an alien or foreign body. The woman knowingly and willingly created this life. In doing so she has landed herself a duty of care to her child. Organ donation is life giving, abortion is life ending. It’s that simple. Anyone seeking an on demand abortion must accept that they are making a decision to deliberately end the life inside, future child, that they themselves have created. Comparing the foetus to some kind of parasite is repugnant.
@HelloGoogleTracking: An embryo still doesn’t have the right to use my organs for it’s sustainance. Same way you don’t.
@Francis Mc Carthy: It must be tough being on the repeal side, as the verbal gymnastics and mangling of common speech required would have to be very draining.
@Terry McLaughlin: I don’t ask random women when they’re due because a) I don’t know if she’s happy to be pregnant, b) if the foetus is sick, dying or dead or c) it’s none of my business.
@HelloGoogleTracking: “As a woman you have a responsibility to your own child if you conceive it with its father – this is biological – and you should love your child and not want to kill it obviously.”
‘Should’ but this isn’t always the case now is it? If it was true, we’d not have kids being abused, beaten, starved, drowned, stabbed, raped by their parents.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: these are societal issues. Are you seriously advocating abortion to avoid future potential rape? The foetus has a right to life just like every other human. Supreme court judges have adjudged this. It’s not disputable. Article 40.3.3 covers this.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu:
Yes all those things beating abusing raping etc of children are illegal. Just like abortion on demand should be.
It is killing the child far worse than the above examples you give.
As regards the mothers own child having a “right” to “use” the mothers organs????
What a crazy argument – are you serious????
If you conceive your own flesh and blood living child with a father – that child has a natural right to life and to grow and develop within his / her mother – of course they do – obviously !!!!
It is the human reproductive cycle!!
It is the mother who should not be given rights to kill their own child without good reason !!
@Francis Mc Carthy: Slavery was abolished because those who saw it for the evil it was refused to shrug their shoulders and say “Well I wouldn’t have a slave myself but it’s none of my business if someone else chooses to.” Does that argument sound familiar?
As to the Nazis, your statement about them being ‘forced birthers’ isn’t an argument against my point that they used dehumanising language to make it more palatable to kill millions of innocents. They also introduced anti-smoking legislation, so what?
Finally, the word ‘fetus’ is the Latin for ‘offspring’, why not use that, or ‘baby’, which most ordinary people use, in phrases like “Is the baby kicking yet?” After all you would hardly refer to a mother and her infant child as the ‘mater et puer’ would you? Nor would you be likely to ask a pregnant mother “Do you know the sex of the second trimester, non-viable, clump of cells that is using your organs without your consent?”
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Nice attempt at deflection there. However, have you never had a close female friend or relation that you knew to be happy to be pregnant? And if you have, I repeat my question, would you use that terminology to them?
@Sean @114: A non viable foetus does not have a ‘right to life’ if the woman that it is residing inside of is determined to have it removed from her womb….This is 100% a fact…Stop crying.It’s pathetic to watch..
@Terry McLaughlin: Slavery was abolished because it violated the bodily autonomy of a born person..Nazis were ‘forced birthers’ too.Same as the “love both” crew ..Placenta is Latin for cake-yum,yum..so what ?
@HelloGoogleTracking: It is the mother who should not be given rights to kill their own child without good reason !!
So many hours later and still using emotional hogwash…yaaaaawn..
@HelloGoogleTracking: Embryos are human beings too – this is a fact whether you like it or not. —-Was it your left buttocks or right buttocks that you pulled that “fact” from :)
And Goggles,if you want to give personhood to an embryo then it must live by the same rules that other human beings live by when it comes to using another persons organs for it’s ongoing survival…which is they need the ongoing consent of the human being :) oops
@Bin Shapiro :):
It is called science you fool.
The unborn is a developing offspring of 2 human beings – therefore it is a human.
If it is a human and alive – then it is a hunan being.
This is called logical progression of thought and reason – feel free to counter it with intelligent argument – however it is impossible to prove the truth false.
No one denies the humanity of unborn life – independent of species – except bankrupt advocates of right to kill.
The only way to justify killing a human is to dehumanise – hence your pathetic attempt.
Learn science
@Bin Shapiro :):
Your sad attempts at patronisation / condescension fail – due to your apparent lack of integrity – honesty – or any human virtue you could possible name.
You advocate selfish unethical deliberate killing of human offspring / children – vulnerable and dependant on their biological mothers.
Mothers who have a responsibility to protect and nurture their own children.
Disgusting
@Bin Shapiro :):
From your poor articulation – inability to think – and desperate retreat to mockery and laughter about a serious issue – combined with a childlike absence of rational capacity or respect for others….
You remind me strongly of Francis McCarthy…….I wouldn’t be surprised if you were another alias … or his / her severe disabilities are more common than I had feared.
There is help out there – read a book – do a course – educate yourself – maybe look up ethics – philosophy – develop some values beyond selfish expedience.
Also get a dictionary – and learn to structure sentences beyond primary school level.
God is dead – religion is dead – who does that leave to love the fools like you?
Can we all please just trust women. They’re very trustworthy. I know one and guess what??.. very, very trustworthy.
@John O’Leary: “trust women” is absolute nonsensical fluff. Women are individuals. Some are trustworthy, some are not.
@John O’Leary:
HAHA exactly…..
No woman has ever lied – no women are selfish – no women make irresponsible self centred decisions – no women ever abort children for terrible shallow rubbish reasons….
All women are perfect apparently – and need no supervision of the law – it only exist for men – who are evil.
We should exempt all women from all law and legislation…….yeah trust women…..thats a great idea.
No women ever commit crime, or murder, or lie or cheat to get what they want. None are stupid – or manipulative to get what they want….
All bad human qualities dont exist in women – only men…
FFS – pathetic slogan….trust women….tut tut
@John O’Leary: I know one in America ,her name Cecile Richards responsible for thousands of deaths of young babies as head of planned parenthood.And I would not trust her as far as I could throw her.
@Michael O’Prey:why has she never been arrested for those “thousands of deaths of young babies” ? That is extraordinary
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Because of corrupt laws of expedience – allowing the killing of unborn children and denying them a right to life under law.
With stupid justifications like “trust women” or claiming it is about women health…..disingenuous lies and deception to hide the death of a human being.
@HelloGoogleTracking: “unborn children” – no such medical term..
Oh sorry,wasn’t there thousands of women that were procuring unsafe abortions in the US, before Roe v Wade,who were ending up in Emergency Departments with horrific internal injuries ? That is one of the main reasons as to why abortions are legal in the US…Go suck on a lemon :)
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Those are arguments for abortion in extreme justified circumstance – which I agree with. Also most people do.
However it is not an argument for abortion on demand
As the mother of three sons, I have discussed this with them at length, to me, my husband and my sons votes are more important than mine, it has opened a debate in our house, how the eight affects me and them, they’ll be husbands and fathers some day, there’s a lot of misinformation out there, please ladies talk to the men in your lives, their vote or lack of will be pivotal in this referendum.
@Kathy Paul Dowd: Kathy, I am totally undecided on this. I see reasons on both sides. I do not know which way you and yours will vote, but you have posted the best comment on the debate I have seen to date. I hope the silent majority see it like you do and maybe we can, if we try hard enough, ignore the rants and ignorance from both extremes in this debate.
@Kathy Paul Dowd: Seems a sensible approach to me. I’ve heard a lot of quotes regarding this entire debate, some true, some exaggerated, some misrepresented and some outright lies.
Yes, it’s true to say that the abortion rate in the UK is approximately 20%, however it would be wrong to assume a similar rate may occur here and equate like for like. Abortion is availible in the UK up to 24 weeks, for any reason. The proposals for Ireland limit abortion for any reason up to 12 weeks, between 12 and 23 weeks two independent experts must agree it is necessary. A 72 hour period of reflection to allow for counselling will be required. While accessible, this will make abortion in Ireland among the most restrictive in the world.
For those who oppose repealing the 8th Amendment I have one question. What’s your solution? What do you propose to to say to those victims of rape and incest, those teenage mothers? What do you say to those parents of Fatal Foetal Abnormalities, forced to go abroad? Until you have a workable, compassionate solution, don’t condemn this one.
@Arch Angel: Firstly, Arch Angel 97% (the vast majority) of UK abortions have absolutely nothing to do with rape or FFA and are ‘normal’ routine abortions on healthy babies. People seem to spend 97% of the time discussing the 3% of hard cases while ignoring the ‘ordinary’ abortions where it’s felt perfectly normal to abort a baby because it’s an inconvenience.
Talk of ‘restrictive’ abortion regimes is a joke! That was also supposed to be the case in the UK but after a while, getting two doctors to sign a form simply becomes an administrative task for overworked doctors – none in the UK is refused an abortion and the same will be the case here. If it isn’t, Coppinger et al’s next campaign will be about changing that! The abortion industry worldwide is about the routine killing of healthy babies in normal pregnancies – if you believe anything else you’re living in cuckoo land.
@Brian Deane:”97% abortions are done on healthy “babies”" -you never mentioned if the woman was physically or mentally healthy ? Tsk! Tsk! But of course,to the”love both” crowd,she doesn’t matter :)
Of course men have a say, the unborn involved could be their prospective sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces, grandchildren that they’ll see on top of how they’re related to the women involved. Vicarious association is still association
#SAVE THE EIGHTH
#VOTE NO
@League of shadows: stop trying to control women’s bodies. Vote yes, #Men4Yes
@Brian Madden: How can a law control a woman’s body when the woman can travel to abort?
@Brian Madden: Lol the insecurity of repressive liberalism, you’ll need a refund for that slogan mate
#VOTE NO
@Stephen Devlin: Absolutely, what some in the yes campaign don’t understand is to vote or advocate no is not to be anti choice, it’s just that we don’t feel comfortable with or approve of the state facilitating in that choice.
#VOTE NO
@Brian Madden: control women’s bodies…what an idiot…
You have zero care for the fully formed baby at 3months old. Beating heart, all organs formed, 2 arms, 2 legs, finger nails, sucking their thumb and kicking, fighting to survive. What about him or her??
Have you given them a choice?
I will be voting NO.
Man here. Will be voting YES on May 25th in support of Irish girls and women who need access to safe, supervised abortion, rather than the current status quo of unsafe, unsupervised abortions. How many of us thought ‘it doesn’t affect me’ right up until the point that it did?
@The Risen: Paraphrase it as they don’t even mention abortion in the Government leaflet .
“Man here. Will be voting YES on May 25th in support of Irish girls and women who need access to safe, supervised taking away the life of a 7 week old boy or girl, rather than the current status quo of unsafe, unsupervised taking away the life of a 7 week old boy or girl.” The Risen
Your profile of ‘The Risen’ is genderless but at 7 weeks people will know what gender that life is being ended. I find that sadistic but seeing the level of discussion in the comments here it is a game of starting and putting out fires. Fair dues to the entitlement seekers as they have rigged the structure of the vote to suit the dismantlement of legal impartiality.
@Gerald Kelleher: Telling that you have to change the words I posted rather than counter them. Tut tut.
Oh, and if you have such an issue with sadism, you might want to hang up your rosary beads and walk away from the catholic church.
Consistency and all that.
@The Risen: I’ve seen 5 pregnancies/births up close and personal,and to be honest with you,i would not force any woman/child to have to go through with it..If they want to,best of Irish luck to them..
@The Risen: Absolutely nothing contextually changed as an alternative description of the event so why complain although I should have included in the womb so let’s correct it -
“Man here. Will be voting YES on May 25th in support of Irish girls and women who need access to safe, supervised taking away the life of a 7 week old boy or girl in the womb, rather than the current status quo of unsafe, unsupervised taking away the life of a 7 week old boy or girl in the womb.” The Risen
Don’t know why you are complaining for what can be more dismal than a string of placarding holding politicians who are supposed to act for the entire electorate where law and order is concerned.
Remarkable that the Journal didn’t report on the sentence given for the killed cyclist along with shutting off the comment section for the Canadian killer who drove into pedestrians. For that reason I know I hit the target when it comes to law and order and an analogy to this issue.
The referendum as it is structured does nothing only polarize society so Ireland has already lost and will eventually become another drab entitlement culture like everywhere else. At least I lived at a time when Irish people knew what fair play was and all those good generations of the past and that was a privilege – nowadays not so much.
Will vote no but for the right reasons – a template for other countries where law and order protect lives and doctors and nurses save lives.
@Gerald Kelleher: You keep posting that “7 week” nonsense, which has been proven to be inapplicable to this country. Any woman who takes that test is, by it’s nature, putting her foetus in danger. Odd how you seem fine with that when it suits your warped argument?
Telling the gender of a fetus in this country by the available means, ultrasound, cannot take place until about 20 weeks, which, as has been demonstrated, leaves them outside the 12 window.
I’ll ask again. What’s your solution? What do you propose to to say to those victims of rape and incest, those teenage mothers? What do you say to those parents of Fatal Foetal Abnormalities, forced to go abroad? Until you have a workable, solution, don’t condemn this one.
@Arch Angel: “You keep posting that “7 week” nonsense, which has been proven to be inapplicable to this country.”
You unfortunates must be truly desperate as the blood test outside the island of Ireland can determine whether it is a boy or girl at 7 weeks and because distinguished gender can be determined then impossible to dehumanize that child. You are saying because it hasn’t arrived here but has in England that it is going be any less than a boy or girl.
“A study published online in the Journal of the American Medical Association has shown that a simple blood test–using maternal blood, not fetal blood drawn through an amniocentesis or other invasive procedure–can determine with 95 percent accuracy the gender of a fetus at 7 weeks of gestation. ”
https://www.parents.com/health/parents-news-now/new-blood-test-can-tell-fetal-gender-at-7-weeks/
There are excuses for the USA in the 70′s or Britain in the 60′s as these tests didn’t exist but we will be the first country to vote for killing 7 week old boys and girls in the womb.
The pro-choice people like yourself don’t believe in good and evil and may even convince yourselves that willful intent to kill is healthcare but evil is always at the bottom of dehumanizing language and extermination policy. Law and order is there to prevent evil from happening and especially legal impartiality.
@Gerald Kelleher: No, law and order has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with morality, good and evil. Those are the sorts of discussions best had with your priest, not your lawyer.
The law is a system of man made rules and regulations, the systems established by a community by which it governs itself. And… as you’ve brought this up, the law in Ireland decided that a foetus does not have the same rights and priviliges as a child until birth.
As you’ve also pointed out, the blood test available outside Ireland. Not available in Ireland. You still failed to answer my question. What’s your solution? What do you propose to to say to those victims of rape and incest, those teenage mothers? What do you say to those parents of Fatal Foetal Abnormalities, forced to go abroad? Until you have a workable, solution, don’t condemn this one.
@Arch Angel: “As you’ve also pointed out, the blood test available outside Ireland. Not available in Ireland. ”
https://www.parents.com/health/parents-news-now/new-blood-test-can-tell-fetal-gender-at-7-weeks/
What man worthy of the name would knowingly vote for killing a 7 week old child in the womb ?. Medicine moves on and this wasn’t available to other countries but now it is.
All those small-minded efforts to dehumanize do not work and probably just as well you can write from an anonymous position as no man would ever admit openly that it is actually now a gender issue – 7 week old boy or girl in the womb.
Everything else is sadistic.
@Gerald Kelleher: I doubt anyone even reads your hyperbole anymore.
@Gerald Kelleher: the journal should come with a warning about you and your codswallop!
As pointed out to you already, and quoted directly from your article.
“Giving some women pause is the fact that the tests are not regulated by the Food and Drug Administration because they are not used for medical purposes, The New York Times reported. Also, the tests are expensive, costing upwards of $250 for lab fees and other processing”
Doesn’t suit your agenda really. Also, a woman with an unintended pregnancy isn’t exactly concerned with the sex of the fetus. A woman with a wanted pregnancy perhaps would be, but many opt to not find out the sex.
Also as per UK stats: “Ninety-two per cent of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation and 81%
were carried out at under 10 weeks”.
@Gerald Kelleher: I’ll be honest, I remain anonymous precisely because of people like you, people with a ‘disturbed view’ of reality. I’m forever thankful I now live in a country that doesn’t allow easy access to firearms, I’ll let my dogs protect me.
You still haven’t answered my question. what’s your proposals? What plans have you to deal with rape and incest, particularly when it concerns young teenage girls? How are you going to address the issue of Fatal Foetal Abnormalities? Before dismissing someone else’s proposal, make sure you have a workable one of your own, and you don’t appear to have one. Insults? Plenty, but that’s about all you seem to be capable of.
Men’s opinion will be “important” only up to the time the mother of the child says it is, if/when the eighth is repealed. That’s what this vote is also about, although you won’t hear the Yes campaign mentioning that.
@Andrew Eager: Ultimately, it has to be the woman’s decision.
@Brendan O’Brien: Which woman? In half of pregnancies there are two females involved.
@Andrew Eager: how will you go and ask the “embryos” opinion ? Hilarious..
@Andrew Eager: I’m sure people who need a kidney would love one of yours but I’m sure you haven’t asked them.
A female friend of mine needed an urgent loan so that she could travel to the UK for an abortion. I gave her a loan. She repaid the money over time. I felt badly about the repayment but she emphasised that it was her responsiblity. I offered to accompany her but she wanted to travel alone. Later I heard of the circumstances in which she became pregnant. Had I known of those circumstances, I would not have accepted repayment. She said a few years later that she knew that if she told me the awful circumstances, I would not have accepted the money back and she was more worried that I might have been hot headed enough to engage in reprisal.
It was her decision and it was for me as a friend to support her.
I support the entitlement of each pregnant woman to make her own decision according to her own needs and curcumstances, without explanation or justification.
It’s not my body and not my business.
@Michael Lang: Do you think it’s ok to use hard, difficult cases to push for a liberal abortion regime? Because if pro-choice were honest, they would campaign openly for that as it’s the actual agenda they have. I wonder why they feel they can only sell this based on hard cases and the emotional blackmail type of story in your comment.
@wrong side: The hard cases are enormously relevant because the No side don’t want to allow for them.
Ironically if the No side had considered he hard cases and compromised on that issue we wouldn’t now be having this referendum.
The No side could have controlled the agenda. They ignored the hard cases and so here we are.
@Michael Lang: I have travelled with four friends over the past 20 years.
It wasn’t a decision they made lightly but they have no regrets.
@Stephen Adam: I think that there are many who will vote No, will do so with mixed feelings because they do actually recognise the difficulties that the hard cases bring and would support any legislation brought forward to deal with them. But the government has decided to proceed with an “all or nothing” referendum to repeal the eighth amendment. The consequences of such a move are obvious when you look at the introduction of “restrictive” abortion regimes elsewhere, so if the referendum is defeated, don’t look to the No voters to blame, look to Varadkar and the government for forcing people into an impossible choice.
@Michael Lang:
What was the reason for the abortion – isnt that relevant?
Trust women? why? not all are trustworthy?
Yes abortion should be available is very extreme justifiable cases – but on demand for any reason – no way.
Trust women to kill their own children – even against the wishes of the father? Nope !!
@Garry Coll: I completely disagree – the government did what the citizens assembly and Oireachtais committee wanted. It was a highly representative and democratic decision followed by a referendum.
Whatever I might think of this government I don’t have much to criticise them for here. They haven’t given an impossible choice either – removing the 8th so they can legislate is practical and sensible. If someone doesn’t like the new legislation they can write to their TD or run for office themselves. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
In all honesty can’t see this referendum being lost by the Yes side. When young people vote the world changes – and they’ll vote on this. There’ll be a lot coming home to vote too.
@HelloGoogleTracking: “Trust women to kill their own children – even against the wishes of the father? Nope !! !” =emotional hogwash :) Do you ever get tired of it ?
@Stephen Adam: I think you will find that when the Citizens Assembly was asked, a majority was opposed to the repeal of the eighth amendment. They certainly made many recommendations that the government have included in the proposed subsequent legislation should this referendum pass, but the government has rejected the recommendation of the C A by making this referendum a straight choice of repeal or retain. If you are serious about being able to write to a TD to change any legislation, you’re deluded. The result of the referendum will be what it will be, if I were on the repeal side I would be concentrating on getting a vote out rather than relying on opinion polls.
@Francis Mc Carthy:
I am male – emotional hogwash is the area of your gender.
My point is rational and based on fact – you want the right to kill children for any reason at all, and demand we “trust women”
Also you want the father to have no say in protecting the life of their unborn child – if the mother decides (for ANY reason) – to kill it.
These are facts – consider them and reply rationally if you are capable. Attributing labels and dismissing points – only indicate you are a ideologue – incapable of defending your position – only capable of childlike pathetic repetition of empty slogans devoid of meaning or depth.
@Garry Coll: Garry you weren’t paying attention. The citizens assembly wanted to amend the 8th to make it ironclad that the Dail could legislate on this issue.
I’m not the least bit concerned Garry. Too far ahead in the polls and too many in favour of repeal.
@HelloGoogleTracking: So what’s your proposal? You’re condemning this one and just casually slapping aside traumatic details involving abortion with a “nope!!”.
What do you consider a “very extreme justifiable case”, you’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this so how would you work it? Would you maybe have two independent experts asses each case? Would you insist on a 72 hour period of reflection to allow for counselling, perhaps?
@Stephen Adam: Just what I said Stephen, the CA recommended to amend the eighth, not repeal it. The link below is the article here in the Journal about it. The distinction between amending article 40.3.3 of the constitution and repealing it outright is huge. The CA considered this and recommended amending it, the government has ignored the recommendation and chosen to give the people a straight vote between repeal and retain.
http://www.thejournal.ie/citizens-assembly-ballot-3352050-Apr2017/
@Garry Coll: @Garry Coll: https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/The-Eighth-Amendment-of-the-Constitution/
The third recommendation Garry.
Retain and replace with something guaranteeing that the Dail would have the power to legislate. I’m not sure you appreciate the distinction.
The government went with a more conservative option – not a more liberal one.
The government as I understand it had more practical concerns and repeal is what we’ve ended up with. It doesn’t make much difference though as no matter which path they chose the government has to legislate. Both options remove the right to life of the unborn.
@Garry Coll: You’ve just proven you have no idea what you’re talking about. The language the 8th amendment will be replaced with is ““Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.” That is directly in line with what the CA recommended.
@Arch Angel:
E
@Arch Angel:
Extreme cases are:
Threat to life of mother
FFA
Rape
incest
Make a constitutional change to allow this and it would pass easy.
Abortion on demand is a different matter – kills healthy children for often frivolous reasons – that offends people who value life and should not be condoned by society – it would mean we don’t care about unborn – and they are expendable.
One extreme solution Is requiring a license to have children – or large financial penalty on women who kill children for expediency or selfish shallow reasons. (So their is a real cost for killing their healthy child and stealing its future)
Also publish their names – so men can avoid them
@HelloGoogleTracking: “I am male – emotional hogwash is the area of your gender.”
Yep, the gender who gets pregnant but now you’re demeaning us yet again?
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu:
Actually if you consider the context – I was replying to condescending insulting ignoring of rational points and attempted labeling to delegitimize my points – by a radical ideologue, I capable of anything beyond rabbiting slogans ….
I was accused of “emotional hogwash” – when I made rational points – typical pro abortion tactics.
Yes it is true that women are more emotional than men – this is a biological fact. Women get hysterical
Simply because you consider facts demeaning – does not make it true. Women are more emotional than men – men and women are different in many many ways.
But you probably deny that too – anti science anti reason – post modern insanity.
@HelloGoogleTracking: By my reckoning you agree with over 80% of what I do, we only disagree with abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.
You think this is frivolous. I have to disagree, I’d say for those women who seek an abortion It’s just about the most serious thing they’ll ever do.
I fear we see different things in life, you seem to believe people like me make this decision lightly and have a particular view of the unborn. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe I’ve lived longer and experienced more to realise the pain it causes.
I’ve experienced the indecision of the threat to the mothers life, nobody should ever be placed in that position, the not knowing, and then when you are told there’s nothing you can do anyway. The worst thing the nun could ever say was “it’s in Gods hands”, point him out, you see I’m an atheist.
Rape, yes that too. So many in this country. She had to have someone she could trust, we helped. No relation, but I cried like she was my own. We hoped for the best, we planned for the worst – just in case. Thankfully it was unnecessary. FFA, that too, another good friend, another family destroyed. She travelled, I’ll never forget their pain. Never.
Stop. Stop with the BS. These women don’t make this decision lightly, I can’t guarantee it’ll never happen but then I can’t guarantee it’s not happening now. This isn’t a luxury or something to be treated in a cavalier manner, it’s a serious issue effecting women who make the decision out of desperation. Don’t let them down.
@Arch Angel:
Yes we agree on all except abortion on demand.
You contend all women can be trusted – and no women carry out abortions lightly – this is not the case – as proven by many arguments on the pro side by such women.
All deny the child’s existence and humanity – in a vain attempt to ease their conscience of the fact a living healthy child is dying (in cases with no medical justification)
Also many women make decisions based on expediency or convenience – or just basis bad selfish individuals.
Women can be evil / bad / do wrong just as easily as men – and without protections we open the flood gates to abortion for even the flimsiest reasons – reason not worthy of killing a living human being.
@Arch Angel:
I too am a atheist – and my opinions are based on my personal values and ethics and principles – and my knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.
Killing another human being without a very very good reason is obviously wrong.
Trust women makes no sense….
You might as well remove all laws and say “trust people” – no one robs or steals lightly – or murders other adults without being in difficult situation.
So forgive all crime and trust people to always do things for good reasons….
No hat makes no sense – we have laws because people cannot be trusted.
Women can be selfish, manipulative, evil,, short sighted, expedient, and self rationalising to justify killing heir own child.
It requires objective – not subjective decisions.
Medics have created a Gender test for babies of only 8 weeks.
This would mean gender selective abortions would be legal under the proposed 12week abortion legislation.
I will be Voting NO.
@Pconor: Look, I am finished here but that interpretation is secondary to the fact that when the life of a 7 week old boy or girl is ended, people know it is a human being that is being killed.
They tend to make a fuss over gender selection but that is a distraction from the cowardly way the referendum is framed by omitting a question of 12 weeks along with not framing it as abortion. They have done everything possible to introduce bias and that is a nation in full self deception mode.
Good luck in any case.
@Pconor: The majority who have abortions because of gender reasons tend to be from cultures that disrespect and don’t value women at all.
The rest tend to have sex selective abortion because of sex linked chromosomal diseases like Duchenes muscular dystrophy. I suggest you do your research.
Just in case any men were in doubt. This vote will fundamentally effect you! You will have absolutely no legal rights to the protection of your unborn child. Any referendum that serves to further restrict men’s rights in that way will never get my vote! Women in 99% of cases have all the choice in the world about whether to use their body for sexual pleasure. The biological result can be pregnancy!! The warning is clearly marked on the tin. None of us are above natural law and should not be attempting to fashion a socially constructed world that allows such!
@LD: Men have all the right and ability in the world to use condoms or have the snip if they’re having sex with a woman who might have an abortion.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Idiotic comment, so women that don’t want babies should remove their womb right?
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: I never said men have no responsibility Ciara. I don’t believe that men should be having casual sex with a woman they are not willing to have a baby with any more than I believe a woman should. My point is that the central narrative around the issue is choice. And the fact is 99% of women have a choice to have sex or not. As do 99% of men. If people choose to have sex they should be capable of facing up to the natural biological consequences.
@Stephen Devlin: Why would women remove their wombs? We can be raped. We can have a much wanted pregnancy that has an FFA, we could get cancer while pregnant. Tell me again why we’d remove our wombs? No hospital will do a hysterectomy unless you’re over a certain age with a few kids by the way.
@LD: A pregnant woman who is anti abortion won’t have one. If you’re anti abortion, find yourself one of those.
To me, the opinion of the men in my life on this issue is very important. It could potentially change my relationship with them forever. If they admit to voting no, it will tell me they view me as less than them, as an incubator on legs first and foremost and not a human being entitled to the dignity of making my own health care choices and ownership of my own body. I honestly don’t want those people in my life.
@Carol Oates: Who would want to live with a self-absorbed person who doesn’t have enough respect for their own lives by having no respect for others and especially the 7 week old boy or girl in the womb. There are a lot of want/entitlement seekers going around and my goodness do they want them as legal entitlements.
To be sure there are a lot of men out there as accessories and can’t stand on their own individuality but no surprise how they look at this issue.
@Gerald Kelleher: Please stop with the torrent of word diarrhea. Honestly, you make zero valid points. The rubbish you write on this and every subject has been picked apart and called out for being irrelevant, nonsensical rubbish multiple times by other commentators. Including the 7 week lark. Isn’t it about time to go crawl back under that rock.
@Carol Oates: “The rubbish you write on this and every subject has been picked apart and called out for being irrelevant, nonsensical rubbish multiple times by other commentators. Including the 7 week lark. ”
We will be the first country to vote for taking away the life of a 7 week old boy or girl in the womb because of the insistence it is not a human being and that is a mind that is truly rotten -
This undemocratic referendum has become a dangerous vehicle for politicians who are caught inside a bubble made for them by advocacy crowd. Those outside that bubble can see it is a law and order issue and that willful intent to take away life is different to medical issues. That lady on Pat Kenny this morning was displaying common sense and not an over-heated sadistic attempt to drive for entitlements.
I have seen what happens in America as the first generations after Roe vs Wade reach middle age and they were sold freedom but many of them ended up with insatiable wants that not even drink could mask. It is not what you want in a man but what law and order allows for all citizens.
@Gerald Kelleher: A referendum is by its very nature democratic.
@Gerald Kelleher: You really can’t help yourself, can you?
@Carol Oates: People are beyond hope if they vote to take away the life of a boy or girl given the available medical information so it would be completely sadistic to try and dehumanize what is human.
Push pause on the whole thing and come back to it with law and order as the central issue.
@Gerald Kelleher: blah, blah, blah. Same nonsense from you day in and day out. It’s only democratic if it agrees with your warped world view and women remain brood mares with no self determination. Which to me is sadistic and dehumanizing. Use your single vote and let the rest of us do the same.
Looking forward to another victory against injustice come the last weekend of May. The ‘no’ crowd have tried for too long to silence people, control people, dictate to people it’s about time they were finally put in their controlling box because as we all know the abortion issue is their last fight i would imagine. Good riddance to them i say.
@John Carmody: The No crowd as you call them ,is made up of individual people who have a Conscience
@Elvis King: my conscience is fine. #Men4Yes
@Brian Madden: Every campaign needs its useful idiots and #Men4Yes dutifully fulfil the role this time. Most of the militant feminists who are demanding unrestricted abortion rights view men with utter contempt. Perhaps there’s something to this as in the event of many unplanned pregnancies, some boyfriends/partners or random one night stand strangers are are only too happy to view abortion as a quick solution to get themselves out of a hole. Of course, they can’t say they’re just being selfish or irresponsible – they’re being ‘caring’, ‘compassionate’ and any other number of Orwellian terms you can think of which solve a problem for them. Being a man involves taking responsibility for all of your actions and not ducking and diving behind slogans that mention everything except abortion. A large number of feminists will always despise men so efforts at winning their approval by supporting the killing of the unborn is utterly pathetic.
@Brian Deane:
I agree
Some men don’t think for themselves – and outsource their responsibility – by misplaced support – it is very sad…….not worth of respect by men or women.
Radical militant irrational feminism / demands for unreasonable rights / excessive rights / positive discrimination / equality of outcome / active discrimination against men etc……
All need to be challenged….but some men are cowed and try and appease – losing respect from all genders
I have come very close to having my vote swayed by angry feminists tell me it’s a womans choice and to “trust women”
Luckily I know enough sound women who realise it also should be a mans choice.
@Ooby Dooby: Any women I know who are ‘angry’ when it comes to this subject are only angry because they don’t have the same right to healthcare that you have.
If you and a pregnant woman have the same cancer, her treatment will be postponed. Yours won’t be.
You won’t be forced to sustain someone who is dying. Why are many pregnant women?
Can you understand how this would make some women angry?
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Any statistics on this topoc? Pregnant women denied treatment due to pregnancy?
@Stephen Devlin: it’s well documented. Have a look online. Certain drugs interfere with pregnancy and treatment is delayed until after birth. I think epilepsy is another one where the pregnant woman can’t take her drugs until after the birth.
@Brian Madden: I did look and there are plenty of cases where people were given immediate care hence the ask for statistics.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: I actually agree with you that women should be angry and I believe the life of the woman should always be put first, unless she deems otherwise.
My point is that men should have the same say, when it’s also their baby.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Various medical conditions, such as vasculitis , can change how or what cancer treatments are given. These conditions affect both men and women. It’s the same healthcare for men and women.
Cancer therapy in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters has been shown to not affect the baby while the mother gets the best care. Is there anger associated with this as you say?
@Stephen Devlin: I suggest you like at the Termination For Medical Reasons site and the In Her Shoes site. All the stories are there. Look up Michelle Harte too. You’ll also not see any pregnant women in an oncology ward.
@Hapax: Have you asked many pregnant women if they want to be going through chemo AND pregnancy at the same time?. In my experience many women are already concerned about their kids, themselves and whether or not they have the capacity to remain pregnant for 9 months with a foetus that is being pumped full of chemo drugs.
@Ooby Dooby: I understand that but how do you balance the rights of the pregnant woman who wants an abortion with the father who wants her to give birth? That’s essentially slavery or forced surrogacy.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Website is down, Facebook page is gone. In her shoes doesn’t mention statistics on how many people were denied medical treatment. Talks more about aborting for various reasons but no statistics on how many were denied treatment due to pregnancy.
This is a lady I see had cancer and was given immediate care
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: If the father is prepared to spend his entire lifetime parenting, the mother should be expected spend 9 months carrying the baby.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: Regarding women who may not “want to be going through chemo AND pregnancy at the same time”. This doesn’t equate to unequal access to healthcare.
Also, “foetus that is being pumped full of chemo drugs”? Chemotherapy during pregnancy does not cause complications.
You obviously haven’t had your green beaker today.
@Ooby Dooby: Slavery is illegal. You can’t force a woman to be a surrogate either. Women go through too much when pregnant and during labour to be forced to be a surrogate just because a man wants to be a dad.
@Hapax: The most common cancers in pregnant women are breast, cervical and endometrial. Chemo can cause birth defects and miscarriage. A woman with endometrial cancer cannot have chemo when pregnant as the placenta is attached to the endometrium. For cervical cancer, treatment tends to be postponed until after birth.
@Hapax: If a pregnant woman has cervical cancer and a man has testicular cancer, her treatment will be stalled till she gives birth. She can’t even have an x-ray while pregnant. Why do you think women have pregnancy tests before every single medical procedure??
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu:
Give the statistical relevance of this argument.
How many women get pregnant?
How many women need cancer treatment while pregnant?
How many can receive treatment?
How many can’t?
What are the proportions?
Express as a percentage.
Hard cases make bad law – if it is a fraction of a fraction – then not relevant.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: again can you share the statistics of women being denied treatment in Ireland from cancer due to pregnancy.
I think too many men are inclined to ‘opt in’ by decreeing that women must behave according to those men’s moral whims. We see that all the time in the comments sections here, which are dominated by men.
@Brendan O’Brien: Do you think a gender quota for the comments section would be a good idea?
I think common sense, respect and restraint would be a good idea.
When there are so many anonymous IDs (like yours) and so many people with multiple IDs, quotas clearly would not be possible in any case.
@Sheldon: not too many women want in on the cesspit sausage fest of stinking misogyny that is the comments section on this site.
@Veronica: Yes, exactly.
@Veronica: How do you know that?
@Sp: It’s an intelligent inference. Virtually wall-to-wall misogyny in some cases; almost complete absence of female commenters: join the dots.
@Brendan O’Brien: Excuse me Brendan, but I was asking Veronica. I’m sure she’s more than capable of answering herself and doesn’t need a man to speak for her.
@Sp: what Brendan said, and I’ve also received several DMs from women talking about how they’re nervous to comment here because of the abuse women receive.
@Veronica: Well maybe you should tell them to “grow a pair” and not be cowed by misogyny?
@Sp: yes, I should bully women into taking abuse from men rather than you telling your brothers to not be abusive. Makes sense.
@Sp: This from an anonymous multi-ID troll who needs to ‘grow a pair’ himself. Oh, the irony.
@Veronica: I don’t have a brother, just a sister whom I love very much and is very successful in life. Btw she hates feminists, she thinks they infantilise women. I guess she has internalised misogyny right?
@Brendan O’Brien: Private conversation here chief, do you mind?
@Brendan O’Brien: a lot of men voting no is about control. It’s very evident on this site. #Men4Yes
@Sp: probably, if she views the rights she currently enjoys as being infantilised.
@Sp: Your fictitious sister may well have internalized misogyny. Tell ‘her’ that it’s not good to hate people.
@Veronica: Did you play any role in the rights she currently enjoys? No. Are you trying to take some sort of credit for them? Yes. Modern day feminists, like you, are contributing nothing to society. Women have equal rights in every sphere. Your work is done. Assuming you think it isn’t, may I ask what is in your manifesto/list of demands?
@Brendan O’Brien: You could tell Veronica to stop hating men couldn’t you? But you won’t, because you think men deserve it. Except you of course, you’re one of the good ones.
@Brendan O’Brien: “internalized misogyny” is a term made up by feminist sociologists to dismiss any woman who disagrees with modern feminism.
I have seen no evidence that Veronica hates men. I have seen lots of evidence that you are a cowardly, entitled, anonymous twerp who uses numerous profiles on this site.
@Brendan O’Brien: Get a job brendan. Seriously. You’re on here all day everyday, losing debates. It’s very sad.
@Sp: I have a job, thanks. Start posting here using one profile only, under your own name. (I know you won’t do this.)
@Veronica: respect to you. I admire your views. I agree with them. You make your comments with strength.
The unfortunate consequence is that you attract the rabid hate of the extreme misogynists. Even when you are not commenting, these sad excuses for men bay for your presence so that they can vent their fury and hostility.
One advantage of your comments is that you have flushed out the more extremist women haters and exposed them for what they are.
You are the strong rays of bright sunshine on the viral cesspool of hatred.
It pains me that women have to fightvso hard to exercise their right of expression.
It is no wonder that so many women avoid the abusive males on this forum by avoiding comment.
The naked hatred expressed to a range of groups on The Journal.ie including prior to deletion would make a fascinating story. It is possible to excavate the deleted comments but It’s a tedious exercise
@Sp: Your sister should thank feminists for fighting for her right to children’s allowance, a civil service job she can stay in after marriage, a bank account of her own, property of her own, and the rest!!!
@Brendan O’Brien: How would you even know if I did. Welcome to the Internet, grandad.
@Sp: Well, you could renounce your multi-ID trolling and declare yourself under your own name. But you won’t, as you’re a coward (you made some excuse under your PutinBot ID, as you may recall).
@Brendan O’Brien: What difference would that make?
@Sp: It would make you look extra ridiculous when you’re having a conversation with yourself.
@Michael Lang: thank you Michael, what a heartwarming comment! It means a lot to me.
@Brendan O’Brien: I don’t talk you myself, I’ve had many accounts but I don’t use multiples at once. But hey, maybe I’ll set one up later with my real name, just for you. I’d even go further, maybe I’ll buy you a coffee in the Riverfront some day, I only live in Mullagh.
@Brendan O’Brien: You have no way of knowing anyone uses multiple anonymous profiles. Please stop saying that.
@Ooby Dooby: Ready for the plot twist? I AM Brendan, chatting to myself. Mwhahahhaha
@Veronica: You can’t warm a non-existent heart Veronica!
It is notable that even if I have taken a raft of nonsense from the pro-choice side and silence from the pro-life, two things happened yesterday to put the real law and order issue at the centre of the event. The politicians holding placards must be the most undignified thing but it may reflect the general direction of the population at all levels in society.
The impartiality of the law treats the unfortunate even where a cyclist or pedestrian is killed even when recklessness is involved as opposed to someone in Canada driving their van into pedestrians out of willful intent to kill. All of a sudden the law will treat taking away life as an entitlement so regardless of all desperate attempts to dehumanize and belittle the life of a boy or girl in the womb, it changes the role of the law to society as it did wherever it was brought in . An entitlement culture is insatiable like a cancer at the core of society so that is what is being voted on.
At least the politicians know their male audience who don’t have a real grasp of the issue so while they play their violins on behalf of pro-choice, it is a distraction from the real issue – the law is there to protect life and prevent bad or reckless people from doing worse while medicine is there to save life.
For all the nonsense dumped in my direction, the pitiful sight of politicians with placards is enough to walk away from this national tragedy even if I will vote no.
from certain aspects of public life, including speech….. Feminists do not want to engage in aspects of life they disagree with. Instead, they want to silence what they don’t like through censorship and criminalisation. Feminists believe that women need protection from words.
Finally, contemporary feminists do not believe that women are independent, free-thinking individuals. Feminists promote a cliquey, sisterhood mentality, but not through a collective and positive sharing of ideas. They’re the kind of group you’d encounter at school who would shun you if you weren’t wearing the right kind of hairband. Today’s feminism is opposed to criticism and nuance, refusing to allow women to form their own opinions or challenge preconceived ideas.
Ella Whelan
@Jay Riain: Look at all those ladies in the UK that lost their jobs to feminism
micheal when a child is born , who owns them ?,the mother or the father ?, or both?
@Elvis King: Who owns the female child’s womb ?
My choice is to vote no. Abortion on demand is absolutely sick! In extenuating circumstances in Ireland pregnancies can be aborted already. This “repeal” is more of a fashion statement rather than having any medical grounding. Babies happen, you’re a grown adult… Adapt. All life is precious
@Mr. H: You’re 14, youre raped, you’re pregnant, you’re the x-case, adapt??
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: how many of these x cases have there been? You’re advocating widespread on demand abortion because of all of these raped 14 year olds? As a society, which should hold human life precious, we can do better than that.
I have to wonder who is designing these posters, there are only ‘No’ posters in my are but they were all but up by people that decided to put holes in the image of a baby.
Respect for the right to life goes to the heart of the kind of society I want to live in. The 8th Amendment acknowledges the right to life of the child in the womb, it doesn’t confer that right, which is inalienable. This affects everybody. This time its abortion. Tomorrow it might be euthanasia for the old or the sick i.e. your right to life. Vote NO and keep Ireland safe for all human lives. We can and must do better for pregnant women and their unborn children.
@Michael Daly: These pregnant women don’t want to be patronised by you.
As for euthanasia, if I ever have a disease that’s causing me pain and affecting my quality of life, I’d like to be able to end my suffering with dignity.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu:
And if you had a sick elderly parent causing you hassle and making your life difficult – with stress distress etc health impacts etc…
You would justify killing them with the same arguments you use to kill your own child.
The point stands – you justify killing a child based on its age – why not justify killing the elderly based on their age too?
If human rights become dependent on age – it is inevitable.
I agree with the poster above – right to human life should be granted to all living humans – irrespective of stage of development age – extreme youth / extreme age
Some repealth8th canvassers are saying men are telling them at the doors ” not voting” etc, just a thought could it be some men are shy no voters who are careful who they openly admit to what way they’re really voting on referendum day ?
We should make getting pregnant without a license illegal for couples – if women are incapable of being responsible. (radical i know – but might be a good idea)
Contraception exists – and is freely available. Protections exist for threats to mothers life during pregnacy. There should be no reasons for abortion.
However women still demand the right to kill unborn for any reason at all – that is too far for me.
Restricting having children until a couple is capable of looking after it financially and emotionally is overdue.
We currently have a society riddled with single mothers – on lowest education levels – in worst areas – raising the next generation in shocking conditions – and thousands more killing the children before birth. How is this good for anyone / society / the children etc ???
Educated contributing members of society are delaying children to complete education build careers and homes and relationships…..
The wrong people are reproducing – this needs to be discussed – the cost to the state is enormous – and these people contribute nothing at all.
This entire debate highlights the fact that women cannot be trusted to be mothers any more – with so many arguing to be allowed to kill their own children – it is shocking.
Men also need to step up – and actively prevent women getting pregnant without full agreement in advance legally enforced to prevent killing a father child against his wishes. Also breaking contract or being unreasonable – releasing men from oppressive and one sided family law – designed to apply to another time in history and entirely different social construction of society.
@HelloGoogleTracking: “The wrong people are reproducing – this needs to be discussed – the cost to the state is enormous – and these people contribute nothing at all.”
Mandatory abortion for these people then or mandatory forced adoption maybe?
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu:
Possibly – I don’t have all the answers but why not consider it.
You need a license for a dog – but anyone can get pregnant and perhaps this should change.
Clearly women are not interesting in being responsible – that is clear from all the pro abortion arguments – all devoid of responsibility to their own flash and blood child. And often for selfish shallow reasons…..
So yes clear punishments for anyone not licensed to get pregnant – and for the father too if he was irresponsible too (unless tricked of course, and that happens)
Adoption most likely – or incarceration, jail time including full pregnancy – and financial penalties too.
Radical and extreme – just thinking aloud.
Better than abortion on demand – and address lifestyle single mothers too.
@HelloGoogleTracking:
Being a woman with the power to create new life comes with responsibilities too.
The answer to extreme cases of FFA/rape/incest/threat to mothers life = abortion.
Abortion is not the solution to anything else.
Dehumanizing to justify killing human beings based on gender, race, age, stage of development etc = pure evil.
Always has been, always will be – native Americans were dehumanized and killed, and likewise across the world – even Irish during famine.
Now unborn….disgusting
Tbh, I’m very much disinterested in the whole thing. I think that it’s my disinterest that means really I should vote Yes, as opposed to not at all because there are many out there who are interested or are effected by this. Maybe this is potentially the attitude of many?
All the same militants throwing the same arguments about. When I read the comment section here it definitely pushes me in one direction.
@Billy Heffernan:
To the pub :)
As usual none of the arguments against legalisation are addressed or countered. Just the usual sloganeering.
It’s probably not very nice to promote another news source on a news outlet’s page but if anyone is seriously interested in the serious ramifications of the upcoming referendum they should read Bruce Arnold’s opinion piece in today’s Irish Independent. It’s quite heavy and complex so it’s not for most of the posters I’ve come across in this thread, many of whom seem content with lazily throwing slogans and insults at each other, and posting half-baked, uncorroborated nonsense they’ve picked up in their respective echo chambers.
@Terry McLaughlin: it’s an excellent piece from Arnold. He is spot on about the open cheque book and Varadakar needs to correct the public record. Eye opening quote from Nell McCafferty also.
Doesn’t matter if a man supports it or not women will still see it as men trying to control a women body F**kED if you do F**KED if you don’t
@Jay Riain: it’s not a vote open to any single sex its a vote open to the country to change the constitution. So saying it’s men controlling women is just not true.
@Stephen Devlin: well there’s lot of people out there saying men don’t have any say in it I’m not saying a man don’t have say I’m saying don’t matter which way it goes it be man trying to control women bull
Has any mother or father ever said when seen there first photo of baby in womb ,oh I have to show you a pic of my foetus, no they did not…it is a baby to them parents from the time they have the joy of finding out they are pregnant
I’m not surprised men are opting out. This has been claimed as a women’s issue for many years. A lot of men are probably reluctant to say they have any view on it for fear of being told they’re wrong, misogynistic and so on.
have your say