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IT’S ONE YEAR since the Fianna Fáil party was warned that taking a pro-life stance in the abortion referendum could put the party on the wrong side of history.
That warning was sounded by Tim Bale, professor of politics at the Queen Mary University of London, at the party’s Ard Fheis in the RDS, where the party passed a motion effectively calling for the Eighth Amendment to be retained
The referendum has been and gone, with the public voting overwhelmingly for the amendment to be removed from the Constitution and for abortion rights to be afforded to Irish women.
However, Fianna Fáil was the only party whose members favoured a No vote, according to the RTÉ exit poll.
The parliamentary party itself was split on the issue, with the final result shining a spotlight on the gulf between the soldiers of destiny and wider public opinion.
Standing out on its own, the party, in comparison to others, judged the mood of the people utterly wrong.
This week the party gathered in Malahide for its annual think-in, the first one since the referendum result.
Professor Bale, who had given the warning to the party last year, was back, this time to address the party on all matters to do with Brexit.
Reflection at the think-in?
So, a good time to pause, stop and reflect on the year gone by and where to next.
Ahead of the think-in, one senior Fianna Fáil source said, Bale’s presence was sure to spark reflective discussions about how the party handled the abortion debate.
Last year, the professor told the parliamentary party that their stance on the issue could isolate them from the to the young, urban voters they desperately need.
Speaking to TheJournal.ie this week, Professor Bale said in the end, party members decided for themselves what way to vote. But was it to the detriment of the party and the message it wants to convey as a party getting back on its feet in a modern Ireland? And was the party on the wrong side of history?
“I don’t think it is the case of taking the wrong side in the end. People mainly decided on principle. Those people, who in the end, have a more progressive, more modern attitude went one way, and those that stuck firmly to the principles they’ve held for a long time went the other way. I don’t suppose anything I said made any difference either way,” said Professor Bale.
‘Lessons to be learned’
Replying to a question from TheJournal.ie about whether this year’s think-in is a time to reflect and ‘think back’ about the referendum, party leader Micheál Martin said:
We do of course take on board and reflect on the decision the people took – such as the emphatic decision on the Eighth Amendment. And of course, we reflect on that and the lessons to be learned from that.
However, Martin pointed out that he was one the first party leaders to take a lead in the campaign.
In a shock speech, Martin stood up in the Dáil, going against his party’s mood, and said the Eighth Amendment should be removed.
Martin said he had arrived at the decision after a “long period of reflection” and for many different reasons. It was a big risk, but one that paid off.
The party leader is keenly aware that his party is made up of “varied views” and people with “different perspectives”, he said.
This week he said he felt there needed to be some balance around the debate, stating that his party was being made a stereotype, when there were also other parties, such as Sinn Féin, that struggled with how it would handle the debate.
The long road back
Pushing the party into the 21st century and building it back from election devastation was never going to be easy – something Professor Bale acknowledged this week.
“It was always going to be a long way back [for Fianna Fáil]. I think, being honest, they have been lucky with the leadership because I think Micheál Martin has been a really big campaigner, I think he held a party that could have fallen apart altogether and I think there have been moves on policy towards a more Seán Lemass style of Fianna Fáil politics rather than the kind of Bertie Ahern style politics, which I think is right for the time,” said Bale, who added:
It takes a long time to change the salesforce of a party. There it was always going to be long term, ongoing project.
Where to next for Fianna Fáil?
“I think really in terms of their next election, I think it is very important to express to the electorate that they have been providing a very necessary measure of stability to this government and ought to be given some credit for that,” said Bale.
However, he said carving out “a degree of difference and independence” from the party you are supporting in government is a difficult challenge, particularly as time ebbs on.
Time for the party to pull it down? Bale thinks not.
He said the party is balancing it all out “reasonably well” in his view.
“I don’t think that collapsing the government would be a good idea particularly at this very important time,” he concluded.
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Mícheál Martin is the reigning
All Ireland Kick the Can down the road champion
@Chaotic State: Not needed and move on.
@Chaotic State: The Oslo Accords and the Arab-Israeli Peace Process
On September 13, 1993, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Negotiator Mahmoud Abbas signed a Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, commonly referred to as the “Oslo Accord,” at the White House. Israel accepted the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians, and the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace. Both sides agreed that a Palestinian Authority (PA) would be established and assume governing responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five-year period. Then, permanent status talks on the issues would be held. But the peace process ran aground, and a new round of Israeli-Palestinian violence began .
@Chaotic State: FF councillors abstained from the bill last week in Cork city council. Looks like the party have pulled a 180 on it since going into government with FG.
Hard to take a lad who stood up in the dail as leader of this country and denied we bailed out the banks…..
@Tom Newell: Government did the right thing by the country’s best interest. Anyway back on topic. “Social and economic discrimination caused significant Jewish emigration from Palestine, and Muslim civil wars in the 8th and 9th centuries pushed many Jews out of the country. By the end of the 11th century the Jewish population of Palestine had declined substantially.
@Tom Newell: old news
@thomas molloy: If you’re going to make comments about history, please cite your sources.
They’ve sat on this bill since December 2020. It is not just about Palestine, it would cover all occupied territories from the west Bank to western Sahara. There is blood on the hands of the Irish government and every excuse they make in relation to the otb and arms embargo just make that blood flow
@Ross: we need to focus on our own, left to starve and freeze on the streets like rats we are. No more I say.
@Lance Taylor: Would Northern Ireland come under this bill, just asking?
@Brian Hunt: we cannot afford Northern Ireland, let’s focus on Ireland and get the kids off the streets.
@Ross: article in the Ditch saying the govt promised the ambassador that they would delay it
@Lance Taylor: sometimes the moral approach is to look after or fight for those that are worse off than ourselves and in my opinion the people of Gaza and Lebanon are those people at the minute. The world looks on and does absolutely nothing, it’s happened all over again, and if people don’t want to speak out l, well I believe they are cowards, diplomacy is fruitless
@Marie Agnew: no way Marie they poked the hornets nest remember. Kids with no shoes on their feet here take priority thank you.
@Ross: most part of Israel is occupied by muslims unfortunately. They call it Palestine which never existed.
@Lance Taylor: We are one of the richest countries in the world, blame those who constantly into government for it and that’s a fact.
@Alex: The ignorance is dripping off every comment you make. You do realise there are Christian Palestinians? Many of them have been killed by the indiscriminate Israeli attacks
Not Irelands problem, America and the uk created this all those years ago. Our country has of its own problems enough to do deal with, no need for virtue signaling for the EU.
@Mary Kelly: true. and anyway Israel made sure that everything is destroyed completely so no one will live there except their colons. everyone and Martin knows but a bit more hypocrisy does not shame him either
@Mary Kelly: Ireland is one of Israel’s biggest European trading partners, no one else is willing to lead on this so us taking responsibility for our role in this genocide is as good a place as any to begin
@Mary Kelly: Do you not think this is a bit spineless and insular Mary? Yes, we can all wash our hands and look the other way, that’s an option. On the other hand many can see the moral imperative to speak out and stand up for people suffering under systems of oppression.
Sometimes I think people commenting here aren’t aware of how brutal and unjust the occupation and ‘settlement’ by some of the Israeli’s actually is. You don’t even have to get into the debate over who has rights over the entire territory. We’re talking about humans who have lived in the same place for generations being burnt out of their homes or violently removed. They watch powerlessly as their entire life is stolen so someone else can walk in and live there.
The way the laws are set up, there’s no room for comeback or reparations. Homes stolen and left to walk the roads. This is unjust, inhumane and cruel beyond belief. It’s not virtue signalling to raise our voices and lend support. It’s simply the right and moral thing to do. Do you realise how many things changed for the better in our own country because certain individuals were willing to stand up and be counted? They were ostracised by the people who dislike anyone who makes a fuss but time has proven them heroes with real backbone. Some things need to be called out. For people suffering, simply knowing you are heard and seen and have support can mean an awful lot. We should have a deep understanding of this ourselves considering our own history.
@Hayagriva: responsibility?…… Secondly, better be very careful with this, one of the biggest might become one of the lesser and let’s hope you are not employed by them. We got enough homeless as is, all this shouting on the streets for people who rather have nothing to do with the western world and it’s customs in reality is mind boggling. Maybe we should keep women home, not allowed to do anything really, like in Iran these days, as well. Next protest march on Saturday? Our friends in Iran?
@SerotoninWars: Ireland had no hand in the creation of Israel, this was done by other countries who have now wiped their hands. As a country we have welcomed Palestinian refugees, and backed their claims and called out Israel.
The fact is our own country is in disarray, our health service is a mess, we have the highest level of homelessness ever, there is not enough teachers, there are children with additional needs without school or support services. To say that where you live needs to be prioritised does not lessen the needs of others in other countries. This bill is being used as a distraction from what needs to be done.
@Mary Kelly: that’s it Mary hid under the covers ,it’s not my problem,kinda pathetic really
@Mary Kelly: but sure you will still vote FFFG
@Dominic Leleu: it’s not just about Israel.
@Mary Kelly: I understand your point about the situation not being of our doing. I also understand your frustration at so many things that need addressing in our own country. Personally I don’t think it’s beyond us to try and sort out our own issues while also dedicating a little time to supporting the Palestinians. I don’t think doing one cancels out the other or makes it harder. There’s a lot of politicians, lawyers and civil servants at work, and of course the general public too, to lend our voices to the situation. It feels like something we really understand on a cellular level considering our history and an important thing to raise our heads above the crowd on. There are certain areas in international affairs where we shine as a small country. Regardless, hope all is well Mary :)
@Mary Kelly: So?
Once we do a little bit we can turn our backs on crimes against humanity, on genocide?
Was that what you were brought up to believe?
@Mary Kelly: if you think there’s any connection between your list and our stance on Israel you’re beyond deluded.
@Mary Kelly: ireland is most definitely not in disarray. Cope your self on with such hyperbolic nonsense talk.
Israel has a right to defend it’s country and Ireland’s leaders should mind their own business.MM and FF have ruined this country for the people who live here. Unless you are an illegal or a Ukrainian you will never afford a house of your own. He would sicken you to the stomach.
@Gerry Lamont: Genocide is not self-defence.
@Brendan O’Brien: it’s not genocide, it’s a war, brutally one-sided as it is. If Hezbollah (Iran) and Hamas didn’t want war and the elimination of Israel, there would be more of a possiblity of peace.
Islamists only understand force. Reasonability and fairness they consider to be a sign of weakness.
@offside again: It is genocide: the attempted obliteration of an entire people. That is not war. The civilians being massacred are not combatants in any war.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00135-1/fulltext
@Gerry Lamont: Israel illegally occupies Palestinian land. This has been established under international law.
Further to this, it is ALSO international law that an occupying force has NO LEGAL right to self-defence.
So no, you’re wrong. Completely wrong.
Stop parroting some daft American politicians
@Brendan O’Brien: they are not trying to obliterate an entire people and you know it. They would have succeeded years ago if that was the case.
However there are plenty who would obliterate Israel if they could. Maybe you included would like them to disappear too?
@offside again: The facts of the matter are against you, as you know very well. Israel’s cruel and abusive deployment of its power over the Palestinians is too well established to be unknown to you. ‘They would have succeeded years ago if that was the case’ makes absolutely no sense. They are doing it now!
From my link, which appeared in the Lancet as long ago as last May and is written by a hospital director:
Since the attacks by Hamas against Israel on Oct 7, 2023, the Israeli retaliatory strikes, bombings, and strict sieges have almost never stopped. So far, more than 85% of Gaza’s population have been displaced,2 and as of April 13, 2024, at least 33 000 Palestinians have been killed (more than a third of them are children) and 70 000 civilians have been injured. Approximately 7000 Palestinians are reportedly missing—most are likely dead. This massacre has taken place in just 180 days and is still ongoing. Gaza has now been described as a graveyard of children by the UN. According to WHO and Médecins Sans Frontières, hospitals in southern Gaza are at “breaking point” while all the hospitals in northern Gaza have been destroyed and are out of service. There is very limited access to ambulances, electricity, and clean drinking water, and injured patients are being transferred to medical institutes by donkey carts. The UN announced that the number of health-care workers killed by Israeli strikes is the highest in any single conflict in the organisation’s history. Josep Borrell, a High Representative for the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, has described the destruction in Gaza as being proportionally greater than that which Germany experienced in World War 2.8
A key aspect of this war is the deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israeli military—for example, in just one investigation by Amnesty International, US-made munitions were found to be used by the Israeli military in two deadly, unlawful air strikes on homes containing civilians in Gaza.9 These air strikes were either direct attacks on civilians or civilian objects or indiscriminate attacks and Amnesty International is calling for them to be investigated as war crimes.
The heinous acts described previously are not the only ones. Two shelter schools, one of them run by the UN, were attacked by the Israeli military: several men were shot with live ammunition at point-blank range; children and other civilians were arrested and stripped of their clothes; and women were arrested and threatened to be raped. Some detainees have been used by the Israeli army as human shields to storm residential homes and ground tunnels and the fate of hundreds of detainees—including men, women, and children—remains unknown.10,11 Even educational and cultural sites in Gaza have not been spared from the Israeli strikes; so far, at least 104 archaeological sites have been badly damaged, including the Jabaliya Byzantine Church that has origins dating back to 444 BCE.
What is happening in Gaza cannot be fully described in words. This brief Correspondence is a plea to every human being to help stop this genocide right now—we cannot live like this; the world should not be silent about the killing of civilians in the thousands.
I am employed as the Director of Al-Shifa Hospital.
@Brendan O’Brien: Losing a war you started is not genocide – Hamas and Hezbollah are the genocidal ones – but this seems to be too much for some people to comprehend
@Mark Eightfourone: You do know that Israel has killed tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians in the past year? Their only crime is to not be Jewish.
@Brendan O’Brien: is that those Israeli women and children murdered and kidnapped you mean? Are they free yet? When is your Israeli march planned, next Saturday? BTW, no idea how many are daily killed in Ukraine do we? That’s next Saturday and every Saturday there after too yes?
@peter willekens: All murders of civilians are bad, obviously. I accept this. You don’t.
@Brendan O’Brien: a little lesson for you Brendan, Hamas are terrorists, about 80 percent of Palestinian civilians are sympathetic to their cause and hate western civilization, there ya go. Think about it for a while
@Joe Mc Dermott: I don’t know how many civilians are sympathetic to Hamas. I doubt that many ‘hate western civilization’, but I imagine that they do hate having bombs dropped on their houses. I do know that ‘thought crime’ is not punishable by death in any civilised society. Did the thousands of dead Palestinian babies think the wrong thing?
In any case, the IDF is a far worse terrorist organisation than Hamas, based simply on the level of its crimes against civilians. Does this mean that those who sympathise with it don’t deserve to live?
@Brendan O’Brien: then the Allies shouln’t have firebombed German cities. Nor should the Americans have dropped the atomic bomb.
Israel is surrounded by sworn enemies and wouldn’t last 3 weeks without western support. What do you suggest they do ?
Hezbollah and Hamas won’t stop until all the jews are gone.
If you don’t want a war, then don’t start one …
@offside again: I suggest that they don’t commit genocide. It’s not that hard.
Do you believe that Palestinian civilians have a right to life, like the rest of us?
@Gerry Lamont: Palestine and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves. If we didn’t fight ourselves for our own freedom we would be part of the UK and still a colony.
@Brendan O’Brien: yes they do have a right to life and 2 state solution is the only way, but when Hamas attacked oct7th the parameters changed, civilians have the power there to kick Hamas out if they were not sympathetic to the cause, I’m on the fence about the war but Israel have the right to life too
@Joe Mc Dermott: How can ordinary people ‘kick Hamas out’ when they barely have the power to stay alive?
In any case, Hamas has been deliberately fostered and facilitated by Israel, which saw it as the right kind of enemy.
@Gerry Lamont: Israel does not even have a right to exist, never mind a right to commit crimes against humanity.
@ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere: what a surprise from the Hamas shill. What’s your solution so that Israel ceases to exist ?
@offside again: If Israel can only exist by committing genocide, then by definition it does not have a right to exist.
It is the party with almost all the power in the dysfunctional relationship. The onus is on it to try to map a way towards peace and respect for human rights. Unfortunately, it has chosen to abuse its power by oppressing and subjugating the Palestinian people to an extraordinary degree. There is no bright future in this for anybody.
@Brendan O’Brien: it’s the only genocide in history where the ‘victims’ have hugely increased their population. Stop lying.
@offside again: So because the populations of the concentration camps increased, the Nazis weren’t committing genocide?
@offside again: Happens all the time.
Or do you think the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) is still with us?
@offside again: I would suggest you cop on to yourself and realise that those who call themselves Israeli have no rights to the land of the Palestinian.
@offside again: It is the Israeli who started the war.
It is the Israeli illegal colonist who invaded Palestine, setup terrorist groups and attacked both thevPalestinian people and their government to steal their homeland.
All else comes from that.
Those that call themselves Israeli are responsible for *all* the death and destruction.
Quite simply Israel has no right to exist.
It had no right to come into existence, and the Israeli – like the Nazi – has shown the World the can never be allowed control oer the lives of others, and do not deserve a country of their own.
@ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere: stop will you, you’re embarrasing yourself with your ‘hamas’ version of history. You’re obviously blinded to the point of complete ignorance by your hatred of jews.
@Gerry Lamont: For heavens sakes –
it’s only a war when both sides have weapons – this is a genocide !! Wake Up would you !
@Brendan O’Brien: for all us pro Israelis here’s hoping they get the job done quickly once and for all and let the new world crisis take over everyone’s senses
@Gerry Lamont: This is about people illegally stealing homes and land that’s not theirs. The war is disgusting but a different matter.
@Brendan O’Brien: @BrendanO’Brien, it’s not genocide, the 6 million Jews killed by the nazis, that was genocide.
Unemployed people who refuse to engage with social welfare employment services will see their Jobseeker’s Benefit cut by €90 under a plan quietly signed off by the Government after the Budget.
Bad news for the “says no” brigade
@Argus Romsworth: Great news
@Argus Romsworth: Spoiler alert there lad theres always been steps put in place to cut someones welfare if they dont engage with unemployment services. The prohlem is certain folk have always managed to find ways round this, these would be the professional dole lifers who nobody will ever touch, but everyone else has to play by the rules. So hold off with glee about hating some boogeyman group of say no folks……
@Argus Romsworth: I’m an era of full employment…. who could really argue against that?
@Frank Mc Carthy: Anyone with a sense of decency?
There is no such thing as “full employment” in our economic system.
The system is engineered so that there is *always* unemployment.
Otherwise their would be a a shift in the power relationship, with a reduction in the power of the employer.
@Argus Romsworth: “cut” – should be “stopped completely”….
Only had 6 years to pass it but don’t worry lads, maybe Palestine will still exist by the time you get around to it. No rush.
I’m absolutely sure that the Pascal phone call with Israel on his assurances to stifle the bill is all just a coincidence as well.
@Rochelle Hart: the bill is not compatible with EU law, it cannot be passed.
@Pat Hazzard: So the EU has no problem with other countries breaking international law? Strange thing for a government shill to announce. Anyway, Several eminent legal professionals who are experts in international law have eviscerated that ridiculous legal argument put forward by the disgraced AG. BTW it’s most interesting that you don’t even bother denying our ministers are giving secret assurances to terrorist states…
@Pat Hazzard: Even if it were not compatible with EU law, and there is no reason to believe this is the case, we are in breach of much other EU legislation anyway.
And this would be for a Great Good
@Darth O’Leary: a couple of “experts” hand picked from the pro Palestinian side aren’t proof of anything. Also that story in the Ditch has been widely discredited.
Does the Grand Canal class as an occupied territory? Asking for a concerned citizen.
No surprise there.Why not post a list of products and companies in theese occupied territories and let’s just do this ourselves every household boycott them ,as it is our presses could be full of their stuff ..
@Gerry Campbell: Would someone be able to create an app that would ID these, and Israeli goods, for us.
That would be a start at creating such a list.
@ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere: there is already an app called ‘No thanks’ that you can download.
@Brendan O’Brien
I agree Brendan they have gone way over the top, war crimes really, they need to be held to account.
Anyone who remembers The Riordans on RTE will remembers Minnie Brennan . A bit of a busybody was Minnie . Simon Harris and Micheal Martin seem to be the Minnie Brennans of international politics , minding everyone’s business but their own .
Finally they gonna do something about the 6….., ógh no, another country first.!
@Argus Romsworth
Welfare should have a time limit, and people on disability need to be checked yearly.
@Dan Murphy: they are.
They can pass legislation overnight when it suits them
Settlers = Americans dressing as 18th century Russian peasants and stealing Palestinian land.
US/Israel dictating Irish foreign policy as usual, the Yanks shout, Coveney says how high.
Sure what’s another few thousand dead Palestinians while we clown around matter?
The more attack weapons Iran supplies the wider the demilitarised territories will have to be. It’s a vicious circle.
@thomas molloy: The actual cause of any problem needs to be identified and tackled.
Israel is the cause.
Israel needs to be dissolved and Palestine restored to its people.
And israelis need to be hauled before The Hague.
@ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere: dissolve it how ? How would you do it ? A real plan now, not some far-fetched nonsense.
I’ll wait for your reply.
@ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere: why stop there. Oz back to the abbos, America back to the apache. Midnight oil were ahead of their time
Frances Black the singer!?
@Andrew Martin Clavin: Yes. She’s a senator now. More humanity in her pinky toe than the entire government
@Andrew Martin Clavin: yep, known better as Mary’s alky sister
Missed an open goal there heading in to election
This might sound silly, but how do we know if goods are from the occupied territories.
They might just put an office or room in Tel Aviv. I would not trust them.
@Dan Murphy: you can tell the origin of a product by it’s EAN – or barcode. Prefix 729, or 871 or 841 will tell you… more, here: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/01/11/has-israel-changed-the-barcode-number-on-its-products-due-to-boycotts
Mid term recess? What are they, children?
Oh what to do , women and children getting crucified , oh let’s have a conversation about not having a vote
2.8 billion in direct trade imports with Israel as of 2022 figures. That’s a significant amount of money heading in that direction. Can seem to find much if any info on articles made in occupied territories, at a glance
If they had the guts to call this what it really is, i.e the Israel Bill, or the anti-Israel bill, or the west bank bill, I’d probably support it. But no, it with typical Irish mealy mouth obfuscation, it’s called the “occupied territories bill”, we’re told ” “it’ll apply to occupied territories around the world”. Yeah right. Has anyone ever named another territory it might apply to? There’s talk of Western Sahara or some such. Don’t make me laugh. What exactly does Ireland buy from there? Sand?
@Jipangu: A demilitarized zone (DMZ or DZ) is an area in which treaties or agreements between states, military powers or contending groups forbid military installations, activities, or personnel. A DZ often lies along an established frontier or boundary between two or more military powers or alliances.
Queers for Palestine lol
Sinn Fein/IRA party love their international Islamist terrorist buddies like Hamas and Hezbollah,just because they hate the Jewish people so much.
Intensify the pressure on the genocidal Zionists, break all connections be they economic political social or otherwise
A golden opportunity to shut down that talking shop and the electorate blew it
So much for neutrality
Never mind this nonsense, how about a little focus on the people of Ireland.
Good old Frances. She should succeed in getting swing doors put on the West Bank just to keep the Israelis away from the alcohol, sorry, the Palestinians!
A well paid singer and senator has nothing else to do except interfere with another country do what you are paid to our problems please is that to much to ask
Arabs want the Jews gone, from the land that they have called home for over 3500 years, and from the world in general.
The land that was nothing, until Jews made it something.
Then it’ll be our turn.
And we have an alcoholic calling for “sanction’s” against the ‘Jues’, with the support of the other ‘gob shiites for gaza’, and the followers of the ‘religionofpeacemearse’.
Pastor. Martin Niemoller, called it right.
have your say