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THE GOVERNMENT PARTIES have voted down a Fianna Fáil motion which would have seen the Dáil call on the government not to force employers to cover the sick pay requirements of workers.
Fine Gael and Labour successfully forced through a counter-motion which noted that although no such proposals had come to cabinet yet, the deficit in the Social Insurance Fund for 2012 was likely to exceed €1.8 billion.
“The Department is required to secure further savings on it’s [sic] programmes of expenditure in Budget 2013 and subsequent Budgets”, the counter-motion – tabled by social protection minister Joan Burton – read.
“Conscious of the Government’s wish to maintain, as far as possible, vital income supports to the most vulnerable sectors in society, it is necessary for the Government to examine all aspects of Departmental expenditure”, it added.
The FF motion had come after IBEC and Chambers Ireland called on the government not to proceed with plans first mooted earlier this year, when Burton launched a consultation on the possibility of having employers – and not the state – pick up the bill for the first few weeks’ of sick pay.
FF’s Dara Calleary, who had tabled the motion, told the Dáil last night that about 40 per cent of employers in Ireland – mostly smaller ones who have no current sick pay costs – would see their costs substantially increase if they were forced to cover sick pay costs themselves.
He added that even jobs minister Richard Bruton had commented on the difficulties that small businesses would have in paying a sick pay bill – a reason he gave for explaining why the measure wasn’t introduced in Budget 2012.
The counter-motion – amending the FF motion so that it was kinder to the Government – was approved by 70 votes to 45. The motion, as amended, was then approved on a 69-45 margin.
I have noticed a lot of thumbs down in anti-FF comments lately – have they stooped as low to pay people to come on this website and troll any negative comments made against them?
Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.
They should be disbanded and banned from politics forever (bring on the red thumbs, I don’t care :-)
same thought crossed my mind. The place is awash with FF twitterati. Aagghh. Apple twitterati are everywhere here too. Fianna Fail are everywhere and they all have Iphones and Ipads. Be afraid, be very afraid!!!
People have short memories when it comes to politics I’m afraid. Next election I can see them getting a nice few seats
We should never forget what they did. Never.
Sort of coincides with the new college semester. Looks like all the new college FF covens have been given a job (ironically the only one thats imminent in their lives thanks to the Soldiers of Destiny). That or it’s a fraternity prank. If we were Americans, like.
Hopefully the A&E has a sudden rise in cases of RSI of the red thumbs :-)
@ Oh boy
And still free!
That’s exactly what they’re doing. Still, I guess it keeps them off the streets.
I wish the comments would be based on the merits or otherwise of the motion, small companies cannot afford the proposed sick pay scheme jobs could be ar risk.
Exactly, it’s a bad idea from government and the opposition tried, quite rightly, to stop it. I’m sure if it had been Sein Fein that proposed this, the comments would be completely different.
OK. Leonard is chairing this debate from now on. No silly comments please. Stick to the subject please and Leonard will vet the comments before they are posted. So there!
Fair point, Leonard. Money has to be cut somewhere, though. And Labour aren’t going to let it happen in the public sector. I imagine sickies will drop dramatically when it’s the boss that’s paying for it.
Recently Minister Alan Shatter was in hospital (I wish him well) ,but I am curious ,did he get paid while he was unable to work ? did he lose his allowances ? or did he get paid as normal ? I am curious .
You had your opportunity to govern, Fianna Fáil. And economic Armageddon followed. Might I suggest another motion a la the PD’s, lets call it the Fianna Fáil disbandment amendment and put it to your membership?
So I’m paying thousands in PRSI to cover what exactly? My company is paying thousands in PRSI to cover what exactly?
Still no sign of a reduction in mandatory public sick days, though.
Oh shut up.
The grown ups are talking about actual pieces of legislation.
#Paul Anthony….sorry about that. What with you talking out of your arse it was hard to understand what it was that you were discussing.
#Paul Anthony…nice picture of you with Micheal Martin, by the way.
Vincent, I’ve never hidden the fact that I’m a member of FF, so pointing it out is hardly touting journalistic prowess.
Granted, I was harsh. And I apologize for that sincerely. It’s just so bloody frustrating when I think there may actually be an opportunity to discuss the strengths/weaknesses of a piece of legislation & I come on & see all this clearly orchestrated Shinnerbot stuff… Really gets my goat.
#Paul Anthony- I’ll let you into two secrets; I’m not a journalist and I’m certainly no Shinner. You may well get frustrated but you need to understand the perfectly understandable anger of people towards a party that presided over economic oblivion and the surrender of our sovereignty. In that context, you should not be surprised that people react when Fianna Fáil have the gall to pontificate to others on how to run a country. Yours is the party if Haughey, Ahern, Callely, Flynn, Burke….we have every right to be annoyed.
bring back ff and get rid of these half witted bog snorkelling tears
How can anyone still boast of being a member of FF? Shame.
Vincent, you are going off topic. This is not just an FF v FG proposal. The effects of incurring this cost on the employer when they have already paid PRSI is ridiculous. It’s another attack on those who are creating jobs and those working. Is utter madness. My question is how is this going to benefit the creation of jobs.. Well it won’t. And where will the money saved be spent. Bondholders, long term unemployed. I don’t care FF brought this to the table, I’m just glad it is getting debated.
Ahh Jaysus Paul Anthony having your picture taken with Michael Martin. What were you thinking of putting it on your facebook page, Unlike love it’ll be there forever. At first it looked like you’d photo shopped it in but then I thought no it must be real People only photo shop themselves out of photos with Michael
FF should spontaneously combust.
Only if they are standing near a petrol soaked fg/lab meeting…
Like your thinking though (political bbq)
#Mike….I notice you didn’t include SF. I suppose it wouldn’t be the first time they were nearby when some people “spontaneously” combusted. Only question would be whether they’d ring in a warning.
I’m not an FF supporter but can’t anyone here see past their bias to judge the proposal on its own merit regardless of where it came from? I think it’s madness to put yet another burden on the private sector employers many of whom are on the verge of going to the wall. This will just drive more businesses under and add more to the dole queue. Great work FG and Lab! To do this while still paying pay rises every year in the public sector is a travesty.
Agree totally. I despise Fianna Failure, but that doesn’t mean I will thumb them down when they make a good suggestion. Likewise the current shower.
Actually I know this is going to be unpopular but we need an opposition in this country.
FF had virtually none for 13 years and look what that caused. We got a government that when unchecked for years.
A Good Government needs Good Opposition.
I would hope we learn from the past and not let it blind our future.
FF is not a good opposition. And this was just another stunt. They had no chance of getting that motion to pass, and if they were in power they’d be doing exactly what FG is doing. FG=slightly thicker continuity FF.
Ah yes, killing off the opposition is what our democracy needs. Sometimes I just despair.
You actually call FF opposition???? God help democracy if they are!!
Actually, opposition is exactly the right place for FF.
I think we are seeing why we didn’t vote for FG/Lab government for 13 years…
Starting to think we voted for FF because they were the least worse option.
What opposition? Do you really think there is actually a thoughtful principled opposition going on here?
So instead of focusing on the fact that the government’s mishandling of their own budget has now got them hammering SME’s for something they already pay for in PRSI, all commenters want to bag on about in the existence of a particular political party. At the end of the day the motion was a good one to safeguard jobs. The government however is bereft of ideas except for finding ways for low income families and small local businesses take more and more of a hit.
What’s your idea, Eoin? Where are you getting the €3.5b in cuts?
@Vincent he isn’t being paid a ridiculous amount of money by the taxpayer to come up with ways, unlike the fools in FFG/Lab who are being paid a fortune but certainly aren’t coming up with sensible ideas.
Personally, I’d be more in favour of a program that didn’t rule out income tax adjustments and try balance more of the cuts against tax measures. Certainly means testing all social welfare benefits. A third higher tax bracket that would kick in on earnings over €200,000. An effective stimulus package not of direct investment but business friendly legislation, even temporary legislation, aimed at allowing private industry the stability to hire new staff.
And another thing Vincent, people loosing jobs as a result of this pushes up the social welfare bill when they join the dole queue. Pointless policy from government.
I don’t disagree with any of that, Eoin. Except maybe the €200k tax. Is there a point in frightening off the real achievers? Not sure you’d make the €3.5b, though. Absolutely sure you wouldn’t get the means testing past Labour.
I don’t see how a third tax bracket would scare people off. For example if someone was to earn €200,001 in a year and this tax bracket was set at say 45%, then the tax take from this would be 45c. Most multi-millionaires are already tax exiles already and of those who are still here, only a handful might run elsewhere for their tax affairs. The extra revenue generated by this measure would more than pay for itself and offset some of the harsher cuts. I do agree that cuts are necessary however this can’t be indiscriminate and cutting at will. The most needy in society should be protected. Also, measures like the above don’t even make sense as they will cost more money that they would make.
The government have made a bad, shortsighted call to try cover over a social welfare bill that is higher than they’d like however this will simply kick a can down the road where it will be an ever bigger problem. It was right and economically proper to oppose it.
Thanks for that Eoin. Was getting tired of reading the rest of the tripe here, it’s entertaining at times but seriously people.
I run a small business with great staff I find it tough paying their wages, I could not afford to pay sick leave and also pay a replacement…….
just look at the line of people waiting to get a bag of food to feed their kids in dublin today, we are back to the 30s again, and just wait until after the budget in december. There is not enough water in the rivers to hold the bodies that will be comming down stream. these fat cats are getting bigger by the day and living high on the hog. wemon are drinking in the homes cheap wine and destorying their livers. we need to get out there and make a stand to stop the gov from taking more from us.
The legislation as proposed disproportionately effects smaller companies, the ones often with razor-thin profit margins & employing local people.
Indeed, for larger companies, it hardly makes us attractive to foreign investment from multinationals.
This is a completely anti-jobs piece of legislation & should have been supported.
*Correction: This is a completely anti-jobs piece of legislation & THE AMENDMENT should’ve been supported…
Hope that wasn’t a Fredian slip(!)
Question: what did Benchmarking do to the average Irish industrial wage in the Private Sector? That was helpful to small business, was it?
Or what did deliberately inflating an obvious property bubble do to the finances of half the population and the fabric of our society? Go away, FF. Listening to them spout about economic policy is like being slapped in the face with a week old haddock.
Benchmarking occured because we would have lost valuble public servants to the private sector.. and I mean useful ones like nurses and teachers.
Benchmarking wasn’t the issue, it was Social Partnership and the prearranged wage increases which led wages to permanently follow inflation.
The housing sector bubble was driven in a way by government. But building houses in itself wasn’t an issue as the demand was there. Houses were being bought off of the plans. If there was no demand there would have been no supply.
So in short, the issue wasn’t overheating the housing sector….. that was infact a by-product of the actual reason which was …..
Lack of financial regulation.
100% loans, very low interest rates, allowing people to borrow far more than thet could pay back on the basis of colateral on other houses they hadn’t fully paid off.
Now Im in FF, we know what we did wrong and how it happened. We didn’t have the luxury of blaming ourselves all the time witout understanding what happened.
We do blame ourselves for what went wrong and as such had to understand how and why to make sure it doesn’t happen again ….. but we didn’t get everything wrong.
Now if you don’t mind, I would, like the rest of FF, see this country climb out of this global recession asap.
You can keep saying its FF fault and mis representing issues from the past or you can do what we did today, and try and get Irl fixed by coming up with good ideas today and putting the govt to task on bad 1s
#Dave.. Benchmarking was classic FF. Ye bought votes. You wrote a cheque with no demonstrable dividend in productivity. Ye bought votes. As for housing, the rise of developers can be tracked to corruption in planning and Fianna Fáil led the way there. And yes, you did not regulate the financial sector. Sorry doesn’t cover it. The country was drunk on credit, Fianna Fáil was the designated driver and ye put us in the ditch. Sometimes, sorry- let’s move on isn’t enough. You have ruined this country for a generation. FF should have disbanded. Your leader was part of a calamitous Government. Your history , Haughey etc is shameful. The country needs a centrist opposition to Fine Gael. FF has no moral authority to fill that role. Instead there is a vacuum being filled by SF and a rag tag bunch of independents.
Again with the past, which I essentially agreed with you on and added more.
Yes, it will take time for us to earn peoples trust (some will never trust us again).
However, we are the main opposition, we were right today and we will continue be right again in the future.
I’m not arguing with you to be vindictive. Honestly. But why should I believe that? There’s nothing in FF’s history in my lifetime to suggest you could ever be worthy of my vote. Haugheys cabinet was a rogues gallery. Ahern was corrupt and incompetent. Do I really need to name his partners in crime? Cowen, an honest decent man was out of his depth. FF was established with stolen money. Corruption is in its DNA. Point to me please to the possible reason to ever countenance voting for FF.?
Why should you believe what I said?
“Again with the past, which I essentially agreed with you on and added more”.
Ans:- Go back and read what I have written.
“Yes, it will take time for us to earn peoples trust (some will never trust us again)”.
Ans:- By your last comment you have proved this to be true.
“However, we are the main opposition”
Ans:- By virtue of us being the largest party on the opposition benches (Never mind the solitary poll which has no meaning until another on comes out saying the same thing).
“we were right today”
Ans:- Naturally this is open to opinion but I believe the governments decision will turn out to be a negative one on the jobs front.
“and we will continue be right again in the future”.
Ans:- Again open to dispute but I cannot see into the future so I can offer no basis for this statement except to say we have been right about things in the past (fact) and even a stopped clock is correct twice a day so I imagine that I’m probably right in this assertion too, the only factor is time.
Now you appear to be a Meerkat which means you have an average life of 12 – 14 years. This means you have only ever known a Fianna Fail government (Bless) apart from our current one.
In the last government we Achieved Peace in Northern Ireland, developed the IFSC and increased FDI, built an export based economy (a part of the economy which is still working to this day), Introduced 10,000 special needs assistants and reached record numbers of 3rd level students. Achieved massive improvements in health especially in tackling cancer and cardiovascular diseases. We prioitised children, protected the elderly, transformed our transport network, made roads safer (50% less deaths between 1997 and 2010) , introduced civil partnership etc etc etc I could continue.
Your absolutely correct about corruption, internal structures have changed to counter that and hopefully will be helpful in preventing further corrupt officials making it to the top of FF or anywhere in that matter.
In answer to your earlier question about Benchmarking and small business. It didn’t effect them at all as they just passed the cost onto the consumer who, at the time could afford the higher prices. It wasn’t until the boom went bust that it became an issue. However, at that stage most wages dropped and benchmarking was cast aside (and rightly so) .
A group of meerkats is called a “mob”, “gang” or “clan”……… Your character, Aleksandr Orlov, is a pompous aristocrat who by the look of his adverts has little respect for the working classes including his own employees…. Sergei has come off badly in many of the adverts. It’s getting to a stage whereby a legal claim my be in order.
You may not be intentionally vindictive, but you are. Or as you you so kindly corrected me earlier. You’re being vindictive.
Good night, you can run to which ever mob/gang/clan you’re from and sleep soundly tonight. You have done your job well.
Nah. We were in no danger of losing public sector workers to the private sector. Even if we did, why would it have been a bad thing to have them working in the productive sectors of the economy? Wages and numbers employed increased dramatically in the public sector throughout the boom. Now we need a correction.
Dave I’m sorry to have to say it but Vicent the mearcat just gave you a fantastic smack down. As much as I welcome the debate on the above topic, Vincent has beautifully paraphrased FF’s legacy. And remembering the past is essential, in fact it’s vital to teach out children how our nation was betrayed by a small bunch of power hungry, money grabbing inbreds.
Benchmarking was done for no other reason to get votes, at all costs. Thank you Bertie for that small minded arrogant destructive policy.
Let us pray that by remembering we never allow it to happen again.
By the same token though BE, this makes a good read when you’re considering historical legacy of political parties: http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/guest-columnist/if-fianna-fail-ruined-this-country-nobody-admits-that-it-also-built-it-br-by-victoria-white-211841.html#.UIkJf0J79fs.twitter
I would take a lot of what VB says with a pinch of salt. One minute he lambasts you. The next minute he stands up for you. Thats part of his job … headlines.
Doesn’t change the fact he tried to get on an FG ticket to run for the Dail….. that could account for some of his uber negativity towards FF.
It could be that Dave. Or maybe it’s because Fianna Fáil surrendered our hard earned independence and brought an economic apocalypse down upon us.
#Dave. Oh my God. I mean, my God. I just read your final response to me last night. The denial is scary. Every single one of those accomplishments you listed we’re built on a house of cards that has now collapsed. They stand for nothing. The massive debt that FF has burned an entire generation with. That counts for a whole lot. Do you really not understand the damage FF has done. That every cut is FF’s fault? Todays and those over the next 10 years. Really?
Let me remind you lot of idiots instead of attacking a political party why don’t you come up with something constructive to say and come up with proposals oh one more thing to the shinner bots FF ain’t going anywhere so get used to it
Ah, but its not just A political party, is it? It’s THE political party that destroyed the Irish economy with its heady mix of cronyism, corruption and blind incompetence. I think that’s a point worth noting in the record.
The prosecution rests, mi’lud.
By the way the government is the employer of the public sector so is aimed at targeting the private sector employers????
By the way the Irish Citizens are the employers of the Government, yet they still aren’t doing their job for US?
http://www.change.org/petitions/supporting-the-irish-nation-step-down-from-government
well done, you just gave hard working people another reason not to work!
mike can u ever write a post without mentioning Sinn fein listen I’ll have a word with Gerry for u if u want..get a grip
sorry mike meant Vincent!
#Anthony- Top of the page, first comment. Hard to miss.
….and don’t worry about Gerry. He’s my “local” TD. Next time he branches off the M1 on his way from the Dail to West Belfast to drop in on a visit to Louth I’ll have a word myself. Early in the New Year so…..
was an employer here in the service industry & after this never again. I have been looking outside the EU & Im shocked how cheap labour is & how little controls. I can start a company within a week & still serv industry in Ireland. I wont have half the red tape half the legislation or a 1/3 of the cost. So can someone tell me how I could compete in this country employing Irish based workers.
What do you think would happen if everyone did that? Take a wild guess. People still need money to buy what it is you sell, ergo – and this is a real leap of faith but keep with me – if you replace them all with off shored cheaper labour there won’t be a market to sell into for very long.
Why people have difficulty grasping this little doozy is beyond me.
this has already started 5 years ago. Its in full flight now. What do I think is going to happen? Im going to make a living thats what will happen. Something Im prevented from doing here. Colleages of mine have done this because they are tired of waiting for change here. When it changes & it will we will come back.
Best of luck with your venture. I think you’ll find it might not be quite as cut and dry as you think. Also we need to bear in mind another fundamental here – if you started paying Irish people Polish wages you know what else would happen? All those loans, mortgages, credit cards – immediate default.
As I’ve said, good luck with what you choose to do, but don’t come on plying this “the plebs are asking for too much money so I’m off” rubbish.
Sad really. Now that the elder lemons of FF have swanned off to manage their property portfolios all they’ve left the young Turks to do is red thumb comments on The Journal.
I’ve a suggestion – why not take up a hobby instead? Or do an evening course? You’ll find it a lot less futile an exercise and might even learn something.
You do realise that anyone with a property portfolio is hardly swanning about anywhere at the moment?
No lenorne doesn’t .. thats why its sad.
Actually, rents are increasing. And not everyone bought in 2006 either. But that’s beside the point – did you ever notice how many FF TDs were riding the property bubble themselves? Even the most reticent seem to have snapped up an apartment or two.
And there was little old me at the time wondering why the government wasn’t doing anything about soaring rent and mortgages.
(To the red thinners: Are you not entertained?)
Rents for the most part didn’t really come down because mot people bought to rent and couldn’t afford to lower the rents as they had to pay the mortgages. Those who bought pre boom or now possibly ;owered their rents but anyone else couldn’t really afford to take the hit.
Yes FF TDs bought into it as well, like many normal Irish people. They got caught with it being, what turned out to be a bad time to buy as well.
Ah. So you don’t see the governing party being personally knee-deep in investment property during a property bubble as being an issue, at all?
And contrary to the pages of the Sunday Independent not everyone was into property. The vast majority were simply trying to obtain a place to live but didn’t happen to have Fingers Fingleton on speed dial.
The FF troglodytes are back it appears. Obviously smelling a chance to get their snouts back in the trough.
It’s just the time of year – when the worlds of the dead and living are closest. Hopefully by the time the 31st has passed this party will have crawled back into its grave.
Imagine how bad a job you’d have for FF to gain support again!!
Enda you need to have a look at your scorecards.
Interesting that you think public popularity is a barometer of the effectiveness of a Government. Bertie Ahern’s Government broke popularity / approval records. No happy ending to that tale. I hope the Taoiseach cares less about his scorecard & more about saving this republic from the abyss.
Hmmm …. your right, it may have had something to do with that global recession that started in the USA…
Actually no, what was I thinking, Fianna Fail wern’t there, couldn’t possibly have haf anything to do with it.
America sneezed. The rest of the world caught a cold. We contracted HIV.
It’s you’re, by the way. As in you are right.
Phones ….
I’m not sure what Enda cares about but I do know it’s not the people of Ireland.
We could have struggled past the international recession without imploding, Davey. It was the fact that we had a catastrophically overvalued property sector as a direct result of FF policy that meant we got shafted sideways,
And you’ll have to forgive me for saying you’re a tad premature – surely revisionism takes a few decades at the very least? Try peddling that line in 2050 and you might get people to believe you .
There are many legitimate things you can lament about our Taoiseach. His patriotism and his desire to serve the people of Ireland isn’t one of them. Even if you do disagree with the manner in which he goes about it.
I’m sorry but Enda serves his own party’s interest second only to wanting to fit in at the big boys table in Europe. He does that by taking every cent he can from the honest taxpayer and hands it over to his cronnies in Europe no questions asked.
At the same time protects his own interest above the Irish people by allowing Reily and hogan to savage as they see fit.
Oh God. To the poster directly above: up your game, please. The public are considerably more sophisticated these days and 1980s generalised muckslinging won’t cut the mustard.
The legislation does what it is intended to do. It removes the responsibility of a public sector workers sick pay for the first month back to the department of whom they work. This allows Ms Bruton to not have to wield the axe elsewhere. Unfortunately it will as in my case, cost SME jobs and many SME employers will also not be in a position to pay statutory redundancy so guess who will have to foot that bill.
This really is bizarre. Are they giving late night seminars in Mount Street on electioneering from behind a keyboard? “Getting back into Government, one comment at a time”?
Or is it just that FFers are too afraid of a richly merited boot in jacksie and some verbal abuse to go door to door?
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Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
Non-TCF/GVL Vendors
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