Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
HOW WOULD YOU feel if Irish motorists who were found speeding were hit with fines that are linked to how much they earn?
The RSA is yet to decide if it would recommend the scheme to the Department of Transport but told TheJournal.ie today that it is considering the move by the British government to have new speeding fines calculated on an offender’s income.
Do you think this is a good idea?
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Breaking the law is breaking the law, regardless of your income, it’s discriminatory!
@Catherine Mc: i totally agree…An offense should come with a fixed fine but then again is the fine to deter you? Those who earn a lot may not be affected by the value of the fine.. So make it penalty points AND a fixed fine.
The worse aspect are the points…if you don’t have the money then you do a few hours in the training section of the joy or pay 5 euro a week. Points however can disqualify a driver rich or poor.
@The Girl:
Penalty points should be the deterrent, get too many and you are off the road. It would be interesting to see statistics on the profile of shall we say offenders. Interesting is how many times do we read or hear about offenders up in court with multiple traffic offences. Should someone on a good income be penalised for those people, most certainly not. Inequality has crept back in to this country under the watchful eye of government.
@winston smith: people of means can have gotten points quashed by making charitable donations. Is that fair?
No Brendan but that is why the laws we already have must be enforced fairly rather than bringing in new laws which will again only affect the squeezed middle again. Those rich also hire very good barristers to pick holes in any charge. As the saying goes ‘ the law is like a cobweb, the small flies get caught and the big ones break through!
should rape convictions vary according to income ?
I think the bigger point here that’s being missed, is because I got caught speeding should the gards have a right to access my revenue file to see what I earn!!!!
@Tony Gordon: Also PAYE earners will pay more than millionaires with accountants who can make it appear they made zilch last year.
@Tony Gordon: They don’t need to see your records. They can send a file to revenue with a list of people to be fined and revenue send back the rate. Very simple and no data protection issues.
@Tony Gordon: I think it’s harder to get caught if your rich..
@Kal Ipers: is that not sharing data?
There is a band linking my Name and address (indentifying me) and releasing information not for it’s intended use (the information released is the band applicable related to my income)
@ben: Care to back up your claim? Doesn’t matter what you earn, if you know a Garda.
The law and subsequent punishments should be equal for all! Lady justice and our entire legal system is supposed to be blind.
We cannot give into the old style of Irish begrudgery which states that your neighbour who does well should be screwed at every turn!
@Mick Johnson: How is an €80 fine for someone on minimum wage equal to an €80 fine for someone who makes €80 an hour?
The current system is not equal or fair. It’s not about begrudgery, it’s about making the system fairer.
@dkeenaghan: Big difference between €80 and 150% of your weekly wage. It’s an insane suggestion! Again the presumption is that people earning a certain wage actually have a disposable income which I would suggest, most people don’t. Simple solution of course is not to break the law but seriously this is way over the top!
@dkeenaghan: “how is jail time for a hardened criminal whose been there before the same as jail time for a first time non-violent offender? It isn’t – so jail terms need to be longer for hardened criminals as it barely effects them.”
That’s your argument! It’s ridiculous, there should be equal punishment for all!
@Soccer T’s: “Big difference between €80 and 150% of your weekly wage.”
There sure is, but I said nothing about a 150% weekly wage fine. This poll is about the idea of a fine linked to how much you earn. Not what some other country has set their fines to be. Try to stay on topic.
@Mick Micky: “there should be equal punishment for all”
I agree, there should, that’s why a fine needs to be a fixed percentage of a person’s income, not some fixed charge that is a serious deterrent for some but a small irrelevant fee for others.
Your point about jail time is silly an not a valid comparison. For it to be valid we would be suggesting that people get different jail terms based on their life expectancy.
@dkeenaghan: Try doing some research before replying with your condescending remarks. The RSA board is discussing this today and if they decide to proceed it will be “very similar to the UK system”. That’s from the CEO of the RSA so I think it’s safe to assume that the 150% of weekly salary will be the proposed template here too.
@Soccer T’s: I don’t care about your assumptions, the topic of the poll is “Should fines for speeding be linked to how much you earn?” not how large should the percentage be.
The issue of whether or not we should be fining people based on their incomes is separate to the severity of the actual fine.
@dkeenaghan: because there are penalty points received. That evens the playing field.
@Brian O’Faolain: So someone on low income essentially gets both parts of the punishment and someone on high income only has to worry about one part. Sure, seems like a totally level playing field.
Why can’t both parts be equal for everyone, instead of only one part?
@dkeenaghan: well, do you think young offenders should serve longer sentences than older ones because they have more years of life left.
@dkeenaghan: Then make the minimum wage person pay an €8 fine
@dkeenaghan: go on outa that, life expectancy, scraping the barrel there son!
You’re both not all that good at actually reading what I wrote are you.
@John Mulligan: “do you think young offenders should serve longer sentences than older ones because they have more years of life left.”
No, nor did I say that.
@Mick Micky: ” go on outa that, life expectancy, scraping the barrel there son!”
I didn’t say it’s what should be done. I presented it as an example of what would actually be a valid comparison to linking fines to income.
@Soccer T’s: the British system was just this week ‘toughened up’ to 150% of weekly income if you get caught doing 60+ in a 40 zone or 101+ on a 70mph motorway.
That’s why it’s in the news here because we copy everything from England
@Soccer T’s: works very well in a civilised country like finland
Unless one is to make a statutory declaration of one’s income to a court, I certainly don’t want Plod poking around my revenue records. Not with the Commissioner yesterday admitting they’re bad at maths and/or tell lies all the time.
The disposable income of a single income family is radically less than a single person. Basing a fine on Gross income is ridiculously punitive & not reflective of a person’s or family’s ability to pay. Middle income families are already under severe pressure.
@Paul Egan: gross or net is somewhat indifferent as you just set the % fine accordingly. I.e. Higher % of net = lower % of gross salary.
There will of course be inconsistencies if it’s kept simple
@kevin: I hear you, but my point relates to a wise man who taught me that Revenue (Gross) is vanity, profit (Net) is sanity, but cash flow (disposable income) is king! Which one do you think relates best to a person’s ability to pay? Gross income is too simplistic to be a fair basis for a fine calculation!
Think it is a good idea provided that there is a fixed minimum fine.
@Elle Belle: But this would literally be justice under the law. With custodial sentences you’d have a point, because at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter how rich you are, if you get the same sentence as a poor person, you’re deprived of liberty for an equal length of time, so the punishments are equal.
With monetary penalties they’re not. For a poor person an €80 fine can be the difference between a bill getting paid on time or groceries being bought. For a rich person they don’t even notice, so it’s not even a punishment.
Things being equal on paper =/= equality and I’m sick of this over-simplified view.
But please…let’s all think of the poor rich people.
Absolutely agree with this – however in the name of equality, I would assume Dole / healthcare etc. will be provided at a higher level for the higher owners?
@Larry Fitzwell: In Sweden (and France I think) your sldole is linked to your last salary, so you can get people made redundant form high paying jobs on massive dole payments for a while, but not indefinitely. In theory it’s a good idea so you have a few months to adjust and keep your house in order, especially when there are dependant kids.
Totally agree. Only difference being that won’t happen in Ireland. Yet we can scale monetary fines on the other hand. Is that even socialism? Or is it a step further…
Seems to set a precedent that they aren’t interested in the offence just revenue generation.
Presume no change to the status quo as far as Norny drivers and cars are concerned i.e. they can continue to drive like lunatics, intimidating other drivers and vehicles, in their untaxed and untraceable yellow plates, and not a cop in the Republic can touch them?
So there would be an incentive to putting points on your patners licence if they earn less
@mecanicalrat commented: Yes, if ones partner was silly enough to agree to it.
@mecanicalrat commented: It would also depend on whether you were caught speeding by a camera or by a squad car.
@Cindy Crawford: true that…didnt a td or councillor try and do that ( give his wife his points) but upon viewing the camera image it was deemed to him
@mecanicalrat commented: I don’t remember which one. We’ll have to start wearing balaclavas while driving. That’s not against the law, is it?
Is this income combined family, before or after pension contributions, before or after capital allowances, does it include passive investment income such as rent, interest, dividends. Are losses forward allowable?
Good luck figuring that out.
Yes for sure and the same for parking fines. Had a guy in work complain about clamping being some personal insult to him. Happy to pay the fines but being delayed was offensive to him. He earns a lot so the parking and clamping costs mean little to him
@Kal Ipers commented: I guess time is money to him.
The fine should increase relative to the speed you are doing. The higher the speed or the more KPH you are doing over the posted limit should be what they are looking at. Definitely shouldn’t be able to access your earnings record.
One weird trick to avoid speeding fines…drive under the speed limit! Its that easy. No need to worry what the fines are!
@Cathal O’Neill: I’d rather people drive according to the situation around them. Speed limits in this country are a joke, people should be watching the road instead of being glued to their speedo.
Having increased fines for repeat offenders Oscar more effective. Double the fine each time somebody offends within 3 months of the previous offence.
Well a €80 fine disproportionately affects a person earning minimum wage compared to high earners it would be more of a deterrent
@johnp: No one in this country could afford to drive on minimum wage though. Unless they are subsidised by a spouse of family in some way. In which case same rules for same offence should be in place.
As per usual, an attempted attack on the workers of this country. Those that earn money the legit way if this is impose will be hammered. Totally ridiculous to even suggest because you have the audacity to want to work and earn for yourself you could be penalised more than the non worker who commits the same offence.
@justasheedy: how did a deterrent to speeding become an attack on workers? 1. Nobody is taking away a worker’s (or anyone else’s) ability to not speed; 2. there are many wealthy “non-workers” and 3. It is a penalty for speeding and not a price for a license to speed.
@Stephen McManus: it is an attack on workers because you potentially will be fined in accordance to how much you earn. They are basing the penalty on your income which is an attack on workers. Very simple really. Those who work pay more than those who dont
@justasheedy: try not speeding, you’ll be fine, whether you are a worker or not. Today people on higher incomes (just workers according to you) are less likely to be bothered by fines than low income (non-workers?) people due to obvious affordability considerations. They will now be more likely to observe speed limits, everybody wins.
If you got 6 points for speeding and no fine you’d be very careful about getting 6 more. Increasing points will stop speeding.
Not a chance. Discrimination
Yes
@Alan Scott: it depends. What amount will it jump up. 60k 100k ? Anything over 33k you are paying 50% in tax and prsi. Is that going to be taken into account.
@Alan Scott: I would say yes if penalty points weren’t around. But now penalty points level the playing field. The wealthy can’t just laugh at the little speeding fine and treat it like a running cost anymore.
@Joe Travers:
Thanks to the way the Gardai were run for a long time it seems the rich and privileged did not come under that rule.
@Alan Scott: I know of plenty of people who just make a call to a family friend in ‘The Club’ when they’re stopped. NCT, tax, licenses, income, are all irrelevant when you have a connection. I’m far from rich and these people aren’t any better off.
with the amount of money i don’t make will i be getting paid to speed?
Yes but current minimum of 80(?) should remain in place and it rises from that.
Get rid of this Redneck Support Agency. All this sham of an organisation is good for is getting boy racers off with dangerous driving offences. The RSA funds these idiots to go on pro social driving courses so they can look like model citizens in front of a judge despite endangering lives and not having any tax or insurance. This all costs money and fining a person €80 for doing 6 kph over the limit isn’t enough any more. Pure discrimination of working people.
They need to sort out the stupid speed limit differences on the same road first also why was this not proposed for drink driving probably not as much of a cash cow
My initial thought was no and I voted that way. However, if you consider the intention of a fine to be a deterrent then €100 may deter those who would struggle to afford it and may not those who would see it as pocket change. May the fine should be a percentage of monthly income?
That is pure discrimination !!, the penalty for speeding is the points you get not the monetary value, its just our greedy government looking for more money now water is gone
As it stands the law discriminates against the little people anyway.how many people are in court every week for non payment of fines,yet not 1 politician ,banker or developer that was responible for destroying the country has seen the inside of a court room
I think they should be linked to the speed:limit. I.e. How fast you were exceeding the limit.
No. Unless you want people on lower incomes breaking the speed limit more often because the fine will be smaller?
Works well in one of the Scandinavian countries. Can’t remember which….
@Don Juan: Finland
That’s a great deal for the unemployed !
The impact of suspending a license is equal for all. A fixed fine, however, hurts a person on a low income far more than a wealthy person. As an example, in the early noughties a well known developer bought himself a Hummer, which he used to frequently park on the path on Merrion Square. He bought the car because he knew that the wheels were too big for clamping, so all he got were fines, which meant nothing for him. I bet that if he had to pay fines proportional to his income, his cheekiness would have vanished rather quickly.
Punishment should fit the crime – not the criminal
Just don’t speed!!! How much more simple can you get? Judging from some of the comments above it’s as if people are presuming that speeding is the usual way we drive and it’s a matter of equality when it comes to whether or not the punishment should relate to our income. Unemployed / squeezed middle / rich, no need to worry if you are driving safely! If not, suffer the consequences via your income level – it’s well deserved.
Make it a percentage, same as selling a house, the fees are related to the house worth.
Speed limits should be digital near school opening times adjust, should be then rush hour, day, evening, night, near town centres day/night when people about etc…
No as it would stop me speeding
That’s about a 10 fold increase on the current fine..revenue raising scam and way ott. Should murder rape and assault convictions vary according to income?
Completely ridiculous. The government should not have access to my bank account.
Points and insurance hikes not enough for these morons
What about outgoings? Those with crippling mortgages or staff to pay or children to support, or any of a vast array or reasons can have large incomes but no disposable income. The idea of fining by income is unjust. We don’t pay for goods or services at different rates according to our incomes. Why should we pay for the privilege of speeding in that way?
Hah. I see a lot of high earners are reading journal. It works like a charm this way in many countries for example Switzerland.. Its just fair.
We need a review of all speed limits. I drive for living and I see alot worst than speeding the only way this could be police if the Garda did patrols which they won’t cause the cost would take more from the revenue than a stationy car speed traping.
If did however we would see a big drop in all types of accidents and injuries.
The system is so broken they can hardly deliver fines to the right people as it is. Fix it first.
Then use some measure that is known and verifiable at the point of detection like the year or size or both of the car so a new BMW 5 series gets a bigger fine than a 10 year old Micra. Now you might get the odd rich person in a 10 year old Micra but overall the objective would be met without another layer of bureaucracy and delay while they try and find out what you earn (which might not be the same as what you declare)
Are you for real conor f
Bananna republic conor f are you for real
Are you for real conor f
have your say