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Eggs, earthquakes and Euromillions: The week in numbers

Plus – how much of your internet connection should you actually be paying for?

EVERY WEEK, TheJournal.ie offers a selection of statistics and numerical nuggets to help you digest the week that has just passed.

6 – The number of children who have been taken abroad for an abortion while in the care of the State since 1992. Four of those cases involved court proceedings.

3 – The number of potential genetic parents that babies born in the UK in the coming years could have. Britain has signed off on an IVF treatment which allows certain defective material in a mother’s egg to be substituted with parts from an egg of another woman.

1 - The number of worries David Drumm said he had in 2005 when he was appointed as chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank. He told an interview at that time:

Look, the only think I have to worry about is becoming complacent; we have been successful for a long time and it is very important that we never take it for granted.

9 – The weight, in kilograms, shed by Tony Rochford in the first eleven days of his hunger strike in opposition to the property tax. He bought his home in October 2008 but has been without any meaningful income since then, as he was self-employed.

2.8 – The magnitude of the latest earthquake to hit the Irish Sea, when it struck late on Thursday night around 50km off Wicklow.

45 cent – The maximum amount that a European mobile phone user can be charged for downloading a megabyte of data while roaming overseas, as of Monday morning. The European Commission is lowering its current price ceiling of 70 cent per megabyte.

11.9 per cent – The proportion of Ireland’s commercial units which are currently empty, according to a joint survey between An Post and the Ordnance Survey. Limerick City has the highest vacancy rate, at 17.2 per cent.

72.5 per cent – The amount of an Irish internet user’s internet connection that they never actually get. EU data shows that the average Irish connection has an upload speed of only 72.5 per cent of the amount they pay for. Downloads are slightly better, but still only make 84.7 per cent.

€960 billion – The amount of EU spending that will be sanctioned over the next seven years, under the rules of a budget deal struck by the Irish EU presidency with MEPs and the European Commission. The first vote by MEPs on approving the Budget is due on Wednesday.

€500,000 - The amount the HSE was fined by Dublin Circuit Court after breaching two workplace health and safety laws. The conviction related the death of an ambulance worker, who sustained fatal injuries when falling from a door that opened on a moving ambulance.

€100,000 – The maximum possible payout to the Magdalene survivors under a scheme agreed by the government this week. The highest payouts – alongside medical facilities and a contributory state pension – will go to women who spent over 10 years in a laundry.

€93,968,807 – The amount won by the lucky sod who held Ireland’s winning Euromillions ticket holder, who has – quite rightly – opted to stay anonymous.

1,123 – The number of days at which Gavan Reilly has worked at TheJournal.ie, and loved every minute of it. He finished yesterday, and he thanks you all for reading.

Want more? Check out our previous ‘In numbers’ pieces>

Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article. Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.

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5 Comments
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    Mute Tommy C
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:11 AM

    The reason the Welsh language is thriving in Wales is because all primary schools are Welsh speaking so all children are immersed in the language from a very early age plus most places do not have an English language equivalent. Welsh people are very proud of their differences from the English too. Us irish spend our time abroad telling people that we arent English yet there is nothing to differentiate us from the English.
    I would love to learn Irish but its more expensive to learn Irish than it is to learn Spanish, Italian, German etc so straight away there is a barrier to learning it.

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    Mute Keith Banks
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:58 AM

    Welsh isnt actually as thriving as you might think. Ive met a good few Welsh people and none of them could speak Welsh beyond a few words from school, like here.

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    Mute Sean O'Keeffe
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:48 AM

    Officially, 94,000 Irish consider themselves fluent Irish speakers. 314,000 Welsh consider themselves fluent native language speakers.

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    Mute Peter Nolan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:27 AM

    While Welsh is doing better in Wales than Irish in Ireland, you’re wrong to say “all primary schools are Welsh speaking”. There are primary schools that teach through Welsh, yes, but many that teach through English.

    Much like in Ireland, Wales has areas where Welsh is spoken as the main language and large swathes of it where it’s a secondary language at best.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:49 AM

    Keith it’s not more expensive! Tg4 is free, you can get learning Irish books free at libraries, get a cheap, small, dictionary to get you going… where is the expense in that?
    It’s just that the Irish lack the imagination and take it for granted anyway, When it’s gone, it will be gone, you’ll be sorry then.

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    Mute Keith Banks
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:35 AM

    what on earth are you talking about? can you point to where i used the word expensive?

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:10 PM

    Sorry, it was Tommy C who made the remark about it being more expensive to learn Irish. What a joke.

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    Mute Robert Power
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    Jul 4th 2012, 3:07 PM

    One should make the distinction between the South and North Wales. South Wales has much less Welsh. Everyone there aren’t necessarily fond of the language. North Wales is different. All the same we urgently need to start learning from their successes.

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    Mute Tommy C
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:07 PM

    Lisa, my Irish is pretty good but its difficult to know if its right or wrong as there arent a whole load of people in my social circle who speak the language.
    I went to the gaeltacht, have the dictionary and I watch TG4. In fact I think its a brilliant station. theres loads of interesting documentaries on there but if it was as easy as getting a book then we’d all be fluent as all we did in school was learn from books from 4 to 17.

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    Mute Tommy C
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:09 PM

    Peter, most primary schools in Wales dont even teach English until the kids are 7 years of age.
    These schools are the norm rather than the exception.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 5th 2012, 11:42 AM

    Sorry Tommy but I put the work and effort in to get fluent, using a course book, a grammar book, and a dictionary, and all the free resources that are out there. I took notes from ros na rún, started making connections, started to understand word order, and after 6 months of good effort I had a really decent grasp of the language. After that 6 months it comes even easier. The reason people aren’t fluent isn’t because of the expense it’s because they haven’t been bothered to study and learn properly.

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    Mute Sean O'Keeffe
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    Jul 4th 2012, 7:30 AM

    The continued decline of the Irish language is yet another shameful failure of the Irish state.
    There are fewer native speakers here now than when the state was founded. Over the same period Wales has seen a marked revival of it’s native language despite having more limited access to taxpayer funding.
    Perhaps when the Irish state stops trying to save the Irish language it may have some chance of surviving.

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    Mute Alex Simon
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:04 AM

    Indeed… Look at basque, hebrew, welsh.. All growing and actively spoken

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    Mute Sean O'Keeffe
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:39 AM

    There are in excess of 3 million fluent german speakers in the US, Canada & Brazil. Ethnic Germans who have maintained their language over generations without state funding.
    http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-german-language-speaker-map.html

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    Mute Kerron Ó Luain
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:27 PM

    There was a massive state effort to revive Hebrew

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    Mute Jonno
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    Jul 4th 2012, 3:52 PM

    To be fair lads german is spoken by 3mil which is great but I’m Germany it’s a first language of millions, and hebrew didn’t need reviving as its a religious language, irish is backed by the ane force or sheer number of native speakers though I do hope some day every Irish person will be bilingual for some sort of national pride sake if anything, we do too much sucking up to Britain and Europe and leave our heritage behind, not through progress but because we like to kiss up to the bigger countries

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    Mute Eimear Smith
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:36 AM

    My daughter stated Gaelscoil this year, she loves it and knows no difference. I’m amazed at all the Irish coming back to me and my husband who is English is learning Irish and loving it! Maybe if all schools were like Gaelscoil or followed a similar format, where the Irish is conversational as opposed to just learnt off we could save the language and inspire future generations to be proud of speaking Irish.

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    Mute John Burke
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    Jul 4th 2012, 1:21 PM

    Hear hear Eimear. The Gaelscoileanna I can see playing a major part in the future of the Irish language. Many parents have a hidden desire to be able to speak Irish and are unable to for whatever reason, and so, they do the next best thing and give their children that chance. It’s strange how things turn out really, 100 years ago it was the opposite way where parents were getting their kids to learn English and now things are changing bit by bit.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:38 PM

    It’s easy for people to say, oh this is great, maybe if they were all like that, etc. Well the challenge I’m putting up to people here is to actually go do something about it, actually learn the language, properly, and try to help set up another gaelscoil in the area you live in also, lobby TDs about education cuts, demand better teachers, etc. Irish people are all too great at saying isn’t this great, ah this is a joke, etc,. and doing nothing. Can we please move on and start asking for more.

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    Mute Eimear Smith
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:38 PM

    i’m not sure lisa if you’re agreeing with me that the format used in gaelscoileanna is something which should be used nationwide or having a go at me for suggesting ‘wouldnt it be great if they were all like that’? i’m FOR Irish, i hope that by supporting my local gaelscoil, encouraging my three children to love the language and converse in it that i am doing my own small bit to help rescue it…..

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    Mute John Burke
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:12 PM

    Lisa, tá breall ort. Labhraím Gaelainn, labhraím Gaelainn lem chairde agus do bhaineas céim amach as UCC i nGaelainn. Táim fos ag foghlaim í agus ag iarraidh snasa a chur ar mo chuid Gaelainne. Níl eolas ar bith agatsa fúm ná faoi aon duine eile anso. Táir an-cheart a rá go bhfuil daoine ann atá an-luite siar, aontaím leatsa ar sin. Tá tuairimí maithe acu ach deinid faic na nGrást sa deireadh thiar. Do bhíos ach comhghairdeas a dhéanamh le Eimear faoina cuid n-iarrachtaí chun an teanga a cabhrú. Geallaimse duit, táim ag déanamh mo dhícheall chomh maith chun an Ghaelainn a chur chun cinn. Táimíd sa bhád céanna mar a deirtear. Ní fiú a bheith ag argóint.

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    Mute Eimear Smith
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:49 PM

    John, ni thuigim gach focail ach go raibh maith agat ar aon nos! I hope I got that right! 

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 5th 2012, 11:48 AM

    Eimear, seriously, do you want a medal for sending your child to a Gaelscoil? Your contribution here was to say that you send your kid to a gaelscoil and that Irish is coming back to you. I don’t want to sound harsh but nobody leaves school with much Irish so the bit that’s coming back to you is practically worthless, unless you actually build on that. Yes it’s great your child is learning Irish in the Gaelscoil and you are supporting the language by sending them there, but really, that required little effort on your part, and it’s in your own interests as standards as higher in the Gaelscoileanna than in the ordinary national schools. What would be commendable is if you actually got yourself properly fluent in the language and added yourself to the pathetic real number of fluent speakers in this country. You can disagree with me, but it’s my view, as someone who did put the effort in to get fluent in Irish and who can see little hope for the language realistically, unless more is done. We need more.

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    Mute John Burke
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    Jul 5th 2012, 12:31 PM

    Lisa do you have a monopoly on the right to promote the Irish language? And do you have the right to pass judgement on those who try to help? You tell Eimear to take a further step and to become fluent in Irish. You also said that you took that step and became fluent in the language. I find that claim questionable for one reason. That reason is this, Irish is bloody hard to learn, and becoming fluent is even harder. It takes, certainly, over two years to get a high standard of Irish involving constant reading, writing and speaking of the language. When you have kids, work and a number of other commitments what can you do? Not everyone has the oppertunity to achieve fluency. So what option are you left with? Simply learn what you can, try your best, and the most important of all, give your children the oppertunities you didn’t have. You would surely understand all this if you learned the language as you say.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:11 PM

    Tá an Ghaeilge tugtha liom agam. You might question my claim but I put the effort in and I achieved fluency. I never claimed it was an overnight achievement, and I’ve even commented enough times above about how learning a language is a time-consuming activity so I’m not sure why you would question my claim. In fact when I went back to Irish I thought that there would be far more people doing the same thing, particularly because of the recession, and lots of people having more time on their hands, and yet there are so few people who have spent even 6 months on learning the language properly. It just amazes me to be really honest. I think people are in favour of the language as long as they don’t have to put themselves out for it.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:15 PM

    John, a chara, cuir cúpla ceist orm más maith leat agus bíodh deireadh le d’amhras maidir leis an méid Gaeilge atá agamsa.

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    Mute Eimear Smith
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    Jul 5th 2012, 6:27 PM

    Lisa, for some reason I don’t think you’re one bit sorry for being harsh! And I certainly wasn’t looking for a round of applause for sending Daisy to Gaelscoil. I was merely pointing out that I have found the Gaelscoil to be an unexpected source of inspiration for renewing my interest in Irish, and that as words/phrases were coming back to me, I was feeling encouraged and bought a book to help me improve. Therefore my comment was to suggest that if irish was used conversationally in all schools hopefully other parents would be likewise inspired and that would get the ball rolling at a local level. While I admire your passion for promoting Irish I think your attitude is wrong. Starting small isn’t a bad thing and giving a bit of encouragement to others rather than laughing them off goes a lot further I’ve found

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 5th 2012, 9:54 PM

    I didn’t laugh it off. I just said that it was easy to send your child to a gaelscoil, and is in your own interest anyway. Great to hear you got a book, and are learning again. Best of luck!

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    Mute Tommy C
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    Jul 8th 2012, 5:47 PM

    Lisa, You are what we call ‘Irish language nazis’ and its people like you with your attitude who make people go ‘screw this, why should I bother learning Irish’?.
    You spoke to Eimear the way Irish teachers used to speak to their students and as a result, people hate the language. Instead of being horrible to people perhaps you should be encouraging them?
    Its probably just as well you’re not a teacher or the language would be ignored by people like Eimear who is having a positive experience with the language. Your negativity towards people like her could be the death of the language altogether. Why should people like her send her kids to Gaelscoileana when there’s people like you whose attitude stinks? Elitist snobs have no place in Irish language or culture.

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    Mute PeeedOff
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    Jul 4th 2012, 7:34 AM

    Are we heading back to the Punt, according to that No Dumping sign, we are, it leads with a Punt fine, converted to Euro’s underneath. Or maybe Galway is breaking away from the republic, and going back to the Punt.

    Anyway…the majority of Irish kids in school tend to rebel against learning as gaeilge due to the way it’s taught. Peig Sayers has a lot to answer for, while probably an admirable book, it is just too bleak and uninteresting a story for teenage kids to read…!!!

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    Mute Joseph Bosh
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    Jul 4th 2012, 7:49 AM

    I agree that what turns kids off Irish most in school is the way it’s taught.

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    Mute John Burke
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:45 AM

    I never knew why they taught Peig in schools. An tOileánach by Tomás Ó Criomhthain is also about the Blasket life and has the same local language but with one huge difference.. IT’S INTERESTING! Getting attacked by a seal, going on the tear in Ballyferriter and killing a basking shark to list a few events. Well prefer that to Peig!

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    Mute Celtic Lady
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:59 AM

    I think probably today’s children have grown up listening to their parents complaining that learning Irish for 14 years in school was a waste of time and they still can’t speak it. So our kids haven’t a hope of learning it with the attitude we have started them out with

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    Mute Peter Nolan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:25 AM

    Peig? You’re up to the minute there PeeedOff. Peig hasn’t been taught in schools for years; decades even!

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    Mute Jonno
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    Jul 4th 2012, 3:56 PM

    I’m shit at Irish coz it was like 3or 4 classes at 40mins per week each, with no remote contact with the language outside of that, how could I learn the language I that fashion?! Didn’t learn peig n she had no bearing on the fact i wasn’t immersed in the language

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    Mute Tommy C
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    Jul 8th 2012, 5:56 PM

    Peig wasnt about the language. It was a true story about how life was back in those days on the Blaskets. it was to try and instill some appreciation in kids for how difficult life was in those days. Ive since visited the Blaskets and i have a real appreciation for how hard people had it back then. Its a lesson in sociology, anthropology and history too.

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    Mute Michael Byrne
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:41 AM

    In Israel in a few years they revived the Hebrew language. It’s now the 1st language of around 7 million people.
    We didn’t do the work back in the 20′s and 30′s to make Irish the everyday language.
    It will take nationalist fervour to make us bi lingual even and there is little appetite for that.
    In the meantime if anyone feels ashamed or annoyed when they have to say abroad ” no we’re not from Britain we’re Irish” the answer is simple. Learn to speak your own language. Speak it to your kids. Tell them to speak it to theirs… And their friends. It takes belief. Without a cause or missionary style zeal it will never revive.

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    Mute Paul Breen
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:31 AM

    The case of Hebrew is practically unique, it;s not a useful analogy. Welsh and Basque (as mentioned above) have always had a good healthy community of speakers. For any language to be relevant, it must be spoken in the home and community – not left to the kids to learn at school. The only successful government initiatives have been RnaG and TG4, everything else has been injurious.

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    Mute Peter Nolan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:29 AM

    Indeed, a key difference with Hebrew in Israel is that Israel is a country largely founded on immigration from all over the world. It was giving a common language to a group of people who didn’t have one. Much easier to get people to sign up to than to change the common language they’ve already got.

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    Mute Donal Lynch
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    Jul 4th 2012, 7:41 AM

    Let’s all give in and talk German

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    Mute Julian King
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    Jul 4th 2012, 7:16 AM

    Ceart go leoir.

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    Mute Jonno
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    Jul 4th 2012, 3:47 PM

    As many red thumbs as green?! Wtf! Idiots.

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    Mute John Foody
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    Jul 4th 2012, 4:57 PM

    The language policy in Ireland is awful. I believe we’re 5th worst in the EU for billingualism. It’s an embarrassment on a national and individual level. The new Polish-Irish is the only reason we’re not the worst. Polish is spoken fluently by more people in Ireland than Irish.

    We need far more resources put in to languages for children generally. I think it should be compulsory to take a 3rd language as a child, French/Spainish/Chinese etc
    I also think we need a referendum on the lrish language.

    Do you want Irish to remain as an official language?
    Do you want x% of GDP spent on it each year in order to achieve y thousand fluent speakers by year z.

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    Mute Páid Ó Donnchú
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:04 PM

    Very good article, Ian.

    A couple of points.

    1. When the Gaeltacht was set up, most people married folk from their area and brought up their kids through Irish. In an increasingly fractured world, this is not the case. Given that virtually all Gaeltacht residents speak English, and their partners also, can you not see there is a need for fluent Irish for all Irish people, from the point of view of bringing up the next generation of Gaeltacht kids?

    2. As for using local dialects, a Glaswegian and a Cockney use them, but don’t appear to find dealing with a common standard that difficult. The same is true in Germany.

    3. Your points about interacting with the State are valid. Firstly, the Councils should be given say 3 years to provide all services in Irish at the same standard as English, or forfeit their powers for (properly-defined) Gaeltacht areas.

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    Mute Ian Mac Eochagáin
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    Jul 4th 2012, 6:33 PM

    Hi Páid, thanks for your comment.

    1. I suppose the sort of situation you are imagining is one in which a native Irish-speaker and a native English-speaker meet and start a family – am I right? In that case what I would like to see, in an ideal world, is each of the parents speaking their own native language to the children, and the parents speaking whichever language they choose – in other words, no pressure. This sort of thing happens all the time here in Finland with Finnish and Swedish. I suppose you are also concerned with Irish-speakers being “diluted” by marrying English-speakers. The only answer I have for that is whatever language they speak with their partners is their choice. My wish would be for the education system to be overhauled so that leaving school, native English speakers have a communicative knowledge of Irish they can use with native speakers. The other issue I think you have in mind is whether such children can then grow up as “real” native Irish-speakers. I think they can if (and this is a big if and the point that concerns me most) they feel their language rights are honoured by the state. One unclear point arising from this is their education if they grow up outside of a Gaeltacht.

    2. What I had mind when referring to the Dublin standard was that native Irish speakers from the Gaeltachtaí may often find the language printed on official forms artificial and not like their own. Maybe it’s the artificiality and not the standardness that’s the issue. I have a feeling that a lot of forms produced in government offices are translations rather than originals written by native speakers.

    3. Agree! But not even three years! Less – they’ve had enough time as it is.

    BTW, did you read this today?
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/anteangabheo/2012/0704/1224319340740.html
    “Labhraígí Gaeilge le chéile, ach ná labhraígí linne í” is how the Language Commissioner describes the State’s attitude to Gaeltacht communities.

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    Mute Caroline Hughes
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:07 PM

    Good point Páid! There is no standard Irish, it is what it is! My Dad was a Cymro, a fluent Welsh speaker, when he was talking with my Uncle Evie, he found it hard going because in South wales it is almost a different language, many words are more similar to Irish. But difficulties aside, regional variations should not be discouraged as all these variations add to the linguistic nuances and add to what cultural identity really means!

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    Mute Damocles
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:29 AM

    In an increasingly globalised world what are the practical applications of learning the Irish language? Genuine question.

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    Mute Páid Ó Donnchú
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:56 AM

    Not that many, if any.
    Genuine answer.

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    Mute Conchubhair MacLochlainn
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:13 PM

    @damocles it allows you stake out a piece of territory that is uniquely yours, as well as a way of thought and a collective cultural identity or wisdom. We can do that, or we can join the homogenised gloop globalisation is in danger of pushing us towards.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:19 PM

    Joba working through Irishj are out there, that’s as practical as you will get.

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    Mute Sally Aquilina
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:56 PM

    Being bi-ligual from a young age will give you a better chance of adopting a new language when you’re older.

    I know the point has been made there are so many English speaking countries you can go to, but in 20 years time they may not have jobs to offer either. So what language do you pick now to teach children in school that will give them the best opportunities as the world changes? Smart money is probably on Mandarin – but if the education system has already failed the Irish language (per many comments above), then I don’t see a seamless transition to a language so few people currently in the country have had any exposure to.

    My simple view, encouraging children (and adults) to be bi-lingual gives them the skills to adapt to any language, and be versitile so it does not matter what changes in terms of world super-powers. The education system focusing on two common major languages (English and Irish) maximises the opportunity to use both outside of the classroom and therefore both can be as naturally spoken as the other, rather than options of second languages (which will effectively maintain only one *common* language) or just moving to a mono-linguistic society.

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    Mute Si Rogers
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:36 PM

    Practical applications of learning another language:
    1. Different ways of approaching a world means a different way of seeing it. bilinguilism has been shown to increase problem solving techniques.
    2. To be able to communicate in a more effective manner with regards to Irish culture. You wouldnt go to Japan and say you drank a “liquor similar to vodka” while watching “a form of overweight wrestling”, therefore why would you hope to describe Ireland and Irishness in an alien tongue.
    3. Is one of the official EU languages, therefore all European business can be conducted through the language.

    P.s. what are the practical applications of any language??

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    Mute censored
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    Jul 5th 2012, 11:45 PM

    In an increasingly homogenized undifferentiated world it’s worth holding onto things that make us unique. That doesn’t mean getting stuck in the past. Language informs thought, the Irish have historically had a unique and interesting way of looking at things. Not better or worse than others, but an interesting addition to the mix.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:44 AM

    That’s why people started the Gaelscoil movement- so that children would get taught Irish properly. People put a lot of work and effort into setting it up and expanding it. you can thank them for this privilege we have now.

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    Mute John Moriarty
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:23 PM

    I advised my children to put the minimum effort into Irish, on the grounds that their resources used elsewhere would advance them more – one of the most important reasons to get educated. I have honours Irish Leaving Cert and never used a focal. I’m OK with Gaelscoileanna as they’re voluntary. Minority languages worldwide appear to be dying out. I suppose they could be frozen for posterity, but the advantages of English are steaming ahead with the internet, and people are voting their preference every day. To many Irish speakers make an unjustified living on the backs of hard pressed taxpayers flogging a dead horse. Now where’s my coat?

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    Mute MacEnallys Monaghan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:33 PM

    Good man John. Set them kids right. Any other part of their childhood education you’re advising them to ignore for financial gain? Maybe PE? That’s fairly unlikely to make them money. Religion too. Waste of time. Dead right. Steam on. Make lots of money. That’ll make them happy. I’m sure they’ll thank you in the long run. Get the Chinese books out now while their still here. Plenty of money to made with that…

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    Mute John Moriarty
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:26 PM

    just being practical

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    Mute censored
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    Jul 5th 2012, 11:47 PM

    So which subjects are worth your time then?

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    Mute Conchubhair MacLochlainn
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:16 AM

    Without bothering to address the deliberately ambiguous assertion with regards to the status of the language in the constitution, I’d ask every reader here to look at this: http://www.gaeilge.org/deanglicising.html

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    Mute the bionic rats
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:46 AM

    @ conchubhair great read, the whole love/hate thing with england is def a peculiar irish type of psyhcosis. good site here http://www.memrise.com/topic/irish/wordlists/ if anyone wants to give it a bash again, will be learning a cupla focla as soon as i have some polish learned (2yr old daughter is learning it, don’t want to be left out). the problem is, all lessons, from the minute you stepped thru those doors in school, should have been thought as gaeilge. for all the republican b.s. that FF et al spouted from the founding of the state they couldn’t even revive the language. shame

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:41 PM

    So now you begrudge people working to preserve and promote the language a chance to earn a modest living doing just that? How Irish.

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    Mute Wayne Yore
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:31 AM

    Ni thuigim an ceist

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    Mute Brian Callinan
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    Jul 5th 2012, 4:54 PM

    An bhfuil cad agam dul go dti on leithreas?

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:51 AM

    Wales is like Falls Rd. They are in the UK, literally stuck in their territory, so it makes sense that they would batten down the hatches, they take nothing for granted, unlike the Republic.

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    Mute Kevin O'Brien
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:34 AM

    Speaking Irish isn’t seen as an integral part of the Irish identity any more for many Irish people. What are the merits to learning Irish apart from the jaded ‘tir gan teanga’ argument in comparison to learning another European language instead?

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:42 AM

    Learning another foreign language will get you a job in a call centre.If that’s the incentive then work away. There are jobs if you have Irish, again, failure of the imagination. Much easier for people to believe that foreign langs = jobs, Irish = no jobs. Seriously, is that the best the Irish can do?

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    Mute Kevin O'Brien
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    Jul 4th 2012, 11:50 AM

    I think that’s a fallacious argument. Learning a European language will get you as good a job as any Irish language job out there and not just confine you to call centres. An example would be the range of jobs across multiple disciplines within the European Union, where being fluent in two or more major European languages is a requirement. Being fluent in another European language also opens up the job markets of the countries within which the language is spoken. There’s no competition between the lure of the German job market and the lure of the Connemara job market.

    Are there any other arguments in favour of learning Irish over another European language or is it just about jobs?

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:17 PM

    Those EU jobs you mentioned are abroad, sure people can just as easily get on a plane and go to an English speaking country, what’s the point in them spending 1 year + learning the foreign lang to fluent level when they can be off working already in New Zealand and Australia or Canada for example, or the UK, with a year’s salary behind them, rather than a year plus studying and learning?

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    Mute Kevin O'Brien
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:26 PM

    At the moment there’s a shortage of employment in Ireland so having the option to hop on a plane and have access to the job market in mainland Europe is a big advantage, not to mention having access to jobs which specifically require fluency in multiple major European languages.

    I would also have issue with the validity of some of the jobs for which Irish is a requirement. I believe that they largely exist as a result of a cycle of justification for the language rather than to serve a genuine need. For example, there are highly paid posts to translate European Union policy documents into Irish. The end product then lies largely unused by its intended recipients. I think a number of Irish language posts similarly exist to justify the existence of the language, such as jobs in RnaG and TnaG.

    For the sake of argument, I would envision the learning of another major European language to fluency to be accomplished through our primary and secondary school system as an alternative or replacement to Irish in the curriculum.

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 12:45 PM

    You’ve ignored my argument that learning a European language if a job is your incentive is rather silly when you can easily go to UK, New Zealand, etc. etc. all of which are English speaking countries. Set up costs really won’t differ hugely as you will have the same costs in any foreign location, and the difference in the price of the flight really isn’t really going to make up for one year of study to learn the foreign language.
    Anything there you disagree with?

    On your point about the Irish language jobs being there for the Irish speakers, damn right. We do still have native speakers to serve after all. If people achieve fluency and get employed in a Gaelscoil, in an Irish language body such as the Údarás, then good luck to them. They are justifiable as any job in the English language.

    The Irish education system will never turn out fully fledged fluent speakers in any foreign language. If you don’t like that, tough.

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    Mute Kevin O'Brien
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    Jul 4th 2012, 1:26 PM

    I’d agree with you on the current education system being woefully inadequate to teach foreign languages and we need only see it’s failed to teach Irish as proof.

    In regards to your points, I think that spending an extra year or whatever it takes to become sufficiently fluent for a business environment will be required whether you’re learning a major European language or Irish (assuming you’re not a native Irish speaker to begin with). As such, I don’t think it makes much odds.

    I also think that while start up costs may be similar between European nations and English speaking nations such as the US or Australia, etc. I believe that the extra distance and travel cost is something that would be a disincentive for many immigrants, had they the choice between a closer destination and one so far afield. We need only look at the popularity of UK destinations to see that this is true for many people.

    My point about Irish is that it serves no fundamental purpose other than to exist. German is needed so German people can communicate. Irish is needed so…?

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    Mute lisa duignan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:35 PM

    Learning a foreign language for over a year as opposed to going straight to NZ, OZ, UK, etc. really doesn’t make any kind of financial sense. If you want to be closer to Ireland than OZ, then just go to the UK. Plenty of those who have emigrated so far have done just that. Cheap flights over and back.
    Also, you are ignoring the fact that we have native speakers of Irish, whose first language is Irish and they have a constitutional right to be served in their language, and to have adequate services available to meet their needs. Not only them though have Irish language rights, any Irish citizen has the same, and whether you like it or not, Irish is our first language here in Ireland, accept that or not.

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    Mute Kevin O'Brien
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:23 PM

    I’m not understanding how your point relates to the advantages of learning Irish over a major European language. You seem to be focusing on denigrating the value of a major European language while ignoring the relative paucity of options that a fluency in Irish brings.

    It’s a bit delusional to pretend that Irish is the first language of the state. It may say so in the constitution, but it’s not reflected in the linguistic ability of the citizens of the state, so it lacks any legitimacy as the first language of the state. Despite years of learning the language, the average citizen has barely enough Irish to avoid having to piss themselves and many lack even that simple phrase.

    It’s nice that some people still speak the language, but it’s a bit farcical to devote millions of euros in funding to cater to the lingual needs of a very small minority of the population who can be satisfactorily served through English for the most part. The benefits completely outweigh the cost. €18 million was spent throughout Ireland last year funding the language.* How many support teachers or hospital beds would that buy?

    *Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1010/1224305517722.html

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    Mute MacEnallys Monaghan
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    Jul 4th 2012, 8:29 PM

    Kevin – “My point about Irish is that it serves no fundamental purpose other than to exist. German is needed so German people can communicate. Irish is needed so…?”

    Bah. And while we’re ditching Irish for German why dont we ditch all Gaelic games and focus on soccer and basketball. With soccer and rugby and basket ball ye can go professional ? Same type of twisted logic what?

    And look at all the time learning Irish history and geography in school. Sure, by Kevins account, we’re all going to be upping sticks. Much better learn German, US and French related history and geography. Brilliant. God, we’ll have this country ship shape in no time.

    Sometimes the ignorance of our own population is astounding.

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    Mute Kevin O'Brien
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:42 AM

    “Bah. And while we’re ditching Irish for German why dont we ditch all Gaelic games and focus on soccer and basketball. With soccer and rugby and basket ball ye can go professional ? Same type of twisted logic what?”

    You’re right, that is some pretty twisted logic. GAA fulfils the same need as rugby or soccer. You can’t go professional, but that’s not the grounds on which you’d judge a sport. So far the only merit Lisa’s brought up for learning Irish is that it could give you a job. I’d love to hear some alternative reasons if you have some.

    “And look at all the time learning Irish history and geography in school. Sure, by Kevins account, we’re all going to be upping sticks. Much better learn German, US and French related history and geography. Brilliant. God, we’ll have this country ship shape in no time.”

    Uhhhh… I don’t know how to break this to you, but if you’ve seen the history curriculum for Leaving Cert we do actually learn a lot of German, US and French related history already. It’s part of the broad education that Irish students receive. It’s also important to know the history of your neighbours so you can relate with them better. It’s a common complaint amongst Irish ex-pats in England that the school system there doesn’t cover the gory details of their colonial past. I’m quite glad I’ve a well rounded knowledge of European history.

    “Sometimes the ignorance of our own population is astounding.”

    Ah I think you’re being a bit too harsh on yourself there. I mean you’ve probably been out of school for ages, so how were you to know? Things have probably changed so much since when you were a lad.

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    Mute Si Rogers
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:11 PM

    Not until the current generation of naysaying parents dies off can we hope to progress the language. This generation of parents/graduates are too embittered and negative to move on from their experiences to give the new youth a chance. Peig hasn’t been on the syllabus for quite some time, yet it is trotted out at the start of every argument. “14years and i can’t remember a word of it?” I’d love to see how comparable people’s french/italian/german is after all this time also. Different mindset is needed, a cleansing of the very old and entrenched also.

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    Mute Caroline Hughes
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:51 PM

    The Welsh experience might shed some light on this. Welsh was a compulsory subject, it was taught very badly, due to the curriculum being thought up by the English. Irish like Welsh could be a living language, but the way it has been taught is the problem. In school our Welsh books were at least 40 years out of date, so Welsh did not relate to our real lives in the 1970s. Our teacher was the best you could get, Brian Davies, Chaired The Bard twice at Llangollen, and his Mabinogion stories were riveting, so at least we got the gist of the deeply spiritual Welsh culture, my sense of cultural identity is solid thanks to Brian. However, I digress slightly. If you want Irish to flourish make it an attractive optional subject and really teach it well, with teachers that have the passion for the language that the President has, then you might find that students will want to know the language and their cultural heritage.

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    Mute Marko Burns
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    Jul 4th 2012, 10:50 AM

    Agree totally. The very fact that the policy of teaching a language was you also have to link it with all the historical cultural and nationalistic luggage that goes with it is it’s downfall in teaching terms. And also why people can’t rationally discuss the language without getting nationalistic and flag waving about it. Until they split the functions of a language from the rest of the historical stuff they will never get anywhere. You cannot force a language on people for nationalistic historical reasons.
    We have done more to expand and make our own creative English that we ever did with Gaeilge – which when spoken now due to its limited vocabulary ironically ends up with more English words now than ever.

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    Mute Kerron Ó Luain
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    Jul 4th 2012, 2:33 PM

    lol, Irish is the historic language of the Irish nation. You are talking nonsense.

    “split the functions”, pssst

    “creative English” – funnier again. Saying ‘hai’ at the end of a sentence in Cavan or ‘but’ in Dublin or other stupid localisms is not being creative linguistically. Oh yeah but James Joyce……..

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    Mute Frank Caffrey
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    Jul 5th 2012, 7:18 PM

    Might be an idea to start teaching kids to speak Irish rather than study academic Irish. But then the real reason for Irish in the republic is to ensure that only a certain type can apply for State jobs.

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    Mute Eric De Red
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    Jul 5th 2012, 12:00 AM

    Excellent article Ian.

    But why should Irish be taught in schools to the children of those who do not speak it? What business has the state in deciding the language of its citizens? The state should adopt the language of its citizens not the other way around.

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    Mute Old Nokia Charger
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:58 AM

    Hear hear.

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    Mute Seán Ó HAdhmaill
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:09 PM

    Does Bunreacht na hÉireann ring any bells?
    Every country states at one point or another which languages it will use in officialdom, in the various organs of the state including its education system. Nobody can force you to speak Irish in your daily life however there is huge societal and official pressure on those of us who would prefer to use Irish in our daily lifes to speak and use English, sometimes this is down to lack of linguistic ability (in Irish), sometimes down to ignorance (lack of linguistic awareness), disrespect (lack of linguistic empathy), politeness (in the company of a non-Irish speaker) or laziness (usually when people are more comfortable using English), or preference (some people just choose not to speak it for whatever reason).

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    Mute Ian Mac Eochagáin
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    Jul 5th 2012, 1:17 PM

    Hi Eric, thanks for your comment.

    As I see it, citizens of a bilingual country should learn both their own language and the other one in school so that the two language communities can understand each other. I accept that the minority is almost always fluent in the majority language, too (as Swedish-speakers in Finland and Irish-speakers in Ireland are), but I still think it’s important for cultural awareness of the “other”. In deciding that children learn a language spoken in their country by a minority (even by a very small one), I don’t think that the state is deciding the language of its citizens. It’s educating them about the citizens they share a country with. I may as well state here that I have big problems with how Irish is taught nowadays in schools: the focus should be on communication with native Irish speakers, not passing exams.

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    Mute Eric De Red
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    Jul 5th 2012, 10:30 PM

    Ian,

    But what business is it of the state with whom I should converse? That’s my decision not the state’s. I will speak whatever language I require in order to achieve that conversation if I so want.

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    Mute Ian Mac Eochagáin
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    Jul 5th 2012, 10:48 PM

    Of course that’s an individual decision and not the state’s. I repeat that my preferred situation would be one in which English speakers gain a practical knowledge of Irish in school which can then be used to interact with that language community if they wish to. I would also like them to gain this knowledge in such a way that doesn’t scar them for life or fill them with hatred towards that language and the culture it represents.

    I can refer you to this interesting article by a native Irish speaker from the Galway Gaeltacht who makes the point that he comes from a cultural tradition that, to be honest, I don’t think most native English speakers know that much about. If you live in a country you should be aware of and know something about the different cultural traditions that exist in it. I think it’s good for social cohesion.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-we-need-to-keep-irish-alive-but-the-government-isn%E2%80%99t-helping/

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    Mute Eric De Red
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    Jul 5th 2012, 11:25 PM

    Ian, another intelligent article. However I think there is a difference between the state’s recognition of a language and provision of state services in it (however clunky) and the presumption by the state as to what language a citizen should speak. The current teaching of Irish in schools is more to do with the imposition of a standard concept of irishness than it is to do with communication between communities. The latter I can subscribe to, provided that it is voluntary, the former amounts to ethnic cleansing (albeit not of the homicidal sort).

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    Mute Tommy C
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    Jul 8th 2012, 5:53 PM

    The irish are going to be a minority in ireland by the end of the century. Should we ban English then too?

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    Mute Damocles
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    Jul 4th 2012, 3:39 PM

    I’ve been told that the original language was 4 different languages anyway and the language as it is was “revived” using a certain amount of creativity anyway.

    It’s probably slightly more worthwhile than learning Cornish and slightly less worthwhile than learning Dutch.

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    Mute Cillian de Búrca
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    Jul 4th 2012, 4:20 PM

    You’ve been told wrong. And in any case, almost every major modern language in Europe is derived from each other, and ultimately from Latin…Know much Latin, do you?

    damnant quod non intellegunt – They pass judgement on what they do not comprehend

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    Mute Damocles
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    Jul 4th 2012, 4:57 PM

    “Know much Latin, do you?” Yes and Classical Greek, I used to have to translate Thucydides.

    An Caighdeán Oifigiúil was developed from the previous forms of Gaelic in the 50s wasn’t it?

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    Mute James Daly
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    Jul 4th 2012, 5:54 PM

    An Caighden Oifigiil was just the standardisation of certain words and spellings. It would be the equivalent of amalgamating American English, British English, and the various ways English is spoken around the world. It wasn’t that there were four different languages, just different dialects of the same language.
    The same thing was done with French in the 19th century.

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    Mute Cillian de Búrca
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    Jul 5th 2012, 12:42 PM

    “An Caighdeán Oifigiúil was developed from the previous forms of Gaelic in the 50s wasn’t it?”

    No, it standardised the spelling of the Irish language, much in the same way that English, and as the previous poster said, French language was standardised.

    Gaelic isn’t a language (unless you’re a Yank tourist), it’s a a general term for the Irish Gaelic, Scottis Gaelic and Cape Breton Gaelic languages. That’s like saying you and I speak European

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    Mute 680199
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    Jul 6th 2012, 6:53 AM

    What I’m most surprised with is the broad support for Irish. There are few who disagree with it’s being retained as compulsory, except the few who’d wish it’s replacement with Polish, or Mandarin, idiotic. There may be some argument for fewer subjects post junior very, but this is for reasons of specalisation in Uni. If anyone wishes to see how to preserve a language look at Afrikaans – when I was there in the immediate post apartheid period it was threatened and survives.
    Irish has an immense cultural tradition and learning it allows an insight into the great Irish writers, Joyce Beckett, etc whose prose is reflective of the juxtaposition of English and Irish in their formation.
    Certainly change the teaching of it, remove never, an old German lady once commented on a comment that Irish placed the words backwards replied that English is backwards not the other European languages.

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    Mute Niall Boylan @ Night
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    Jul 4th 2012, 9:27 AM

    Nobody seems to want to even spread the story ;-)

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    Mute 680199
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    Jul 6th 2012, 6:53 AM

    What I’m most surprised with is the broad support for Irish. There are few who disagree with it’s being retained as compulsory, except the few who’d wish it’s replacement with Polish, or Mandarin, idiotic. There may be some argument for fewer subjects post junior very, but this is for reasons of specalisation in Uni. If anyone wishes to see how to preserve a language look at Afrikaans – when I was there in the immediate post apartheid period it was threatened and survives.
    Irish has an immense cultural tradition and learning it allows an insight into the great Irish writers, Joyce Beckett, etc whose prose is reflective of the juxtaposition of English and Irish in their formation.
    Certainly change the teaching of it, remove never, an old German lady once commented on a comment that Irish placed the words backwards replied that English is backwards not the other European languages.

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    Mute Dave Lyons
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    Jul 7th 2012, 1:06 AM

    Surely the first thing we need to abandon is this failed model of Gaeltacht ghettos. The unemployment black spots in County Galway were mostly in the Gaeltacht- is this linked to keeping out or at least making it difficult for non-irish speakers to live and work and generate jobs? I think so. The epic failure of all the agencies in even holding the numbers of Irish speakers in those areas is appalling. Whats more important- speaking a language or feeding your family? Irish is a beautiful language and one we should be proud to have. Let’s drop the model that has failed and go with a completely clean slate without these Reservations for Irish speakers

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    Mute Rachel Gallery
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    Jul 5th 2012, 3:14 PM

    It would be sad if Irish was lost, but too much school time goes into it at the expense of other languages and subjects. Irish should be compulsory in primary school and maybe linked in with history and music. It should definitely not be compulsory at Leaving Cert level and maybe not even Junior Cert. If there was less pressure to get points in it, we’d probably all have liked it more at school.

    Existing native speakers should be protected, of course. It is our heritage after all.

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    Mute Steffen Coonan
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    Jul 6th 2012, 9:32 AM

    Irish should not be compulsory and if it is it should only be until 1st class mixed with a foreign language, we can’t speak
    it and it’s of no point! Just “national” pride, over rated

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    Mute Michael Byrne
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    Jul 7th 2012, 3:14 PM

    The worst thing is the snobbishness of people who speak the language. There are examples of it in this thread.It’s a big put off for a lot of people. The 1st step to revival and a truly bi lingual Ireland might be to introduce small elements of it into the everyday language of English speakers at school and in work or government matters. What’s your ainm?
    What colour did you buy? Glas? My point is its not either or- we can mix and blend. Language isnt about reverence, it’s about communication. I think a practical approach, removing the embarrassment and awkwardness is needed. Anyone agree?

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    Mute Jason Roache
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    Feb 18th 2013, 8:13 PM

    Lighten Up guys, you’ve forgotten who you are, after your essential essence as a living being, your land, your culture AND your language are WHO YOU ARE.

    Meditate a little and it will eventually all fall into place and each one of you will see …..

    WAKE UP

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    Mute Darren J. Prior
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    Jul 6th 2012, 1:05 PM

    Good article Ian about preserving Irish but I want to point out some things in it.

    We know the linguistic definition of a Gaeltacht. As you know there will be three different types of Gaeltacht in the future- A, B, and C. I forget the percentages but I think where 75%+ of the people of an area speak Irish every day will be A Gaeltacht areas and places where I think around 30%-50% speak Irish every day will be C Gaeltacht areas.

    The Gaeltacht Bill is not going to provide for the redesignation of existing Gaeltachtaí as Gaeltacht Language Planning Areas so that they are no longer traditional Gaeltacht areas. We still will have a Gaeltacht and a map of the Gaeltacht.

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    Mute jason roache
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    Nov 19th 2012, 7:52 PM

    I’m afraid I like to poke and prod and those “Irish people”, and I use the term loosely, who believe that learning Gaelic is of little benefit or even those who believe it should be lean;t for sentimental reasons are treacherous people and should be charged with treason.

    Not only should the 6,000,000 people on the Island of Ireland be speaking Gaelic but the whole of Scotland should be speaking their variants of Gaelic and Wales should eb speaking their variant of Gaelic and England should be speaking their heritable Gaelci Language just like the Warrior Queen Bouddicca did, infact lets spread it amoungst the European Union and insist the Germans speak a choice of any irish area connotation they like so long as it’s Gaelic Irish.

    Lets raise our ambitions, Gaelic is a language as old as Barney Rubble, English is the contempory illogical language imposed on everyone.

    Rise up, The French used to try and make it difficult for anyone to enjoy France unless they spoke French, why are the people of Ireland doing the same, be proud, insist, don’t fill any government forms in unlkess it’s in Gaelic or have it translated and send it back in Gaelic, the government are the minority, there’s 6,000,000 people, those who think otherwise are lackies, navvies etc, etc, etc

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    Mute Deasmhumhain Macgearailt
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    Sep 8th 2012, 5:15 AM

    and that with a modern educated population as opposed to the ireland of the 1860s. indeed i am not right really in saying that ireland in 1860 and wales in the 1970s were comparable for in the 1860s ireland the huge sway of ireland where irish was still spoken was where nearly no one was speaking irish to their children except those who spoke no other language. from the 1860s on irish was spoke n regularly between adults in half of ireland but not to children! The Gaeltacht is the part where monoglots had no choice but to speak irish or toleave their children speechless. That did not happen yng Ngogledd Cymru so whereas there was a slow slippage intergeneration the shocking fact that in the 1861 census over 50% of those in their 90% were irish speaking a mere 2 o 3 % of the under 10 yr olds did never happened in wales.

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    Mute Darren J. Prior
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    Jul 6th 2012, 1:13 PM

    Or is the Gaeltacht really so f***ed that they have become plans like CDP’s are projects? Ian are you from the Gaeltacht? Is this what you think?

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    Mute Ian Mac Eochagáin
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    Jul 6th 2012, 7:01 PM

    Hi Darren, thanks for your comments.

    I’m not aware of the linguistic definitions you mention. Do you have a link for that? What I wrote in my piece was based on what I read in the Bill, which contained very few definite figures. You’re right in that the Gaeltacht will remain, but according to the Bill, as far as I understand, it will be divided into Gaeltacht Language Planning Areas that will be superimposed onto the map of the Gaeltacht. I should have made that point clearer. At the end of the day, though, in my opinion, none of this will make any difference unless the primary focus is on service and information provision by the State in the native language of the local population.

    No, I’m not from the Gaeltacht.

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    Mute Deasmhumhain Macgearailt
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    Sep 8th 2012, 4:52 AM

    well i have just spent several hours ag léamh gach rud atá le feiscint anseo, & bhí sé suimiúil go leor gach focl a bhí le léamh ann, except that i could n’t understand one person & that is eric the red who doesn’t see why the state should say what languages the citizens should speak & he seems to mean telling him to speak irish when clearly it is the state that makes it extremely difficult for the citizens to deal with them in irish. some of yhe refs to Wales make no sense for until comparatively recent times welsh was dying slowly but the pressure from cymdeithas yr iaith has put sufficient force on the state to start allowing welsh medium schools and as the area of wales where the ancient british tongue is still spoken includes about half of Gogledd Cymru including the city of caernarfon so that in a short time there has been a stalling of linguistic erosion. The effort to save Welsh caroline hughes though recent is when the language was at a state where irish stood in 1860

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