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THERE WAS A 36% increase in the birth of twins in Ireland between 2004 and 2013.
Figures from the HSE show that in 2013, there were 2,526 twin births, compared to just 1,849 in 2004.
Every year the number of twin births has risen.
The number of triplet births has also risen from 54 in 2004 to 87 in 2013. This accounts for a 61.1% increase over the decade.
So, why the big increase?
Speaking to TheJournal.ie, Medical Director at Beacon CARE Fertility Dr Ahmed Omar said the number of twin births is not only rising here, but worldwide.
Assisted reproductive therapies is the main contributory factor pushing multiple births up, said Dr Omar, but studies have shown that twin births in natural pregnancies are also on the rise, mainly due to the increase in the maternal age that women are conceiving.
What’s the likelihood of having twins?
Dr Omar said that in a natural conception the chances of having twins is 1 in 80. However, with In Vitro Fertilisation (IVF) the chance of conceiving twins is 1 in 5.
“One baby at birth is preferable,” said Dr Omar, who said that couples might disagree with this.
The reason why there are generally more multiple births is because embryo success was low, so more than one embryo was transferred, sometimes four or five,” he explained.
He said that this doesn’t have to be the case nowadays.
The success rate has improved dramatically. There have been huge advances in technology and embryo selection, which means the need to transfer more than one embryo has decreased.
The selection process has changed significantly – we now have the ability to incubate embryos and pinpoint embryos with an increased chance of reaching a live birth. Confidence in using single embryo transfers has also increased.
Dr Omar said it is now the role of medical professionals to educate patients that multiple embryo transfers are not always necessary, as while success with IVF treatment in the past was low, studies show there can be a 70% success rate with a single embryo transfer.
He said that couples are under huge pressure to succeed and there are costs to consider too.
However, he said it is important to educate people about the risks also.
The need to transfer multiple embryos has lessened, but we also have to think about the cost to society of twin births – whereby mothers are admitted to hospital weeks before the birth, and babies are spending weeks in ICU due to a low birth weight.The long term effects on the child throughout its life due to premature births also needs to be considered.
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Lying bully
don’t we know for years that this man is a BULLY. Remember how he treated and threatened all those women with Hepatitis. He threatened to make them homeless. horrible man!!
It’s not a lie. Even the NO side accepts that a no vote means a bigger adjustment but that the debt write down and independence that comes with a NO vote gives us greater long term sustainability.
Friedrich Nietzsche:
The state is the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies, too; and this lie creeps from its mouth: `I, the state, am the people.’… Everything about it is false; it bites with stolen teeth.
I agree with David for a change. I will be voting no but anyone who thinks we won’t need to cut spending further, whether we vote yes or no to this, is living in la la land. We are massive in debt and our spending has got to be reduced. A no vote could very well mean a harsher budget but on the plus side we will not be further spiralling into debt and we will be steering our own ship.
Yup Noonan has history as a bully and is back to the old ways again…Me i am voting no and nothing Noonan or the other three liars will change my vote….
David, he is right .. Not often we agree … He will need to start the cuts at the very top, to maximise the impact …
So a Taoiseach who is earning over 200k per year (200k slary as Taoiseach, 50k per year as head of FG, paid for by the tax payer), 80k per year in expenses, all while accruing a pension as a Taoieach, ex-minister, ex TD (total caosts the Tax payer over 550k per year) will need to be addressed …. How has he not addressed this joke already … Once his wages are cut to less than 100k in total, it will be an awful lot easier for him and his government to implement cuts around the other high earners in the public sector. His other partner Gilmore, gets something very close to that also, again, his total packlage should not be exceediing 90k …. and on down the line for the rest of them… I hope David you will answer this challenge, and agree with me on my points … You are a member of FFg, and i hope you respect the wishes of the people… You advocate cuts are going to be severe, but i think you neglected to say that if we cut the very top publcily funded wages to something realistic (not just the government, but all the highest earners over 100k in the public sector andcivil service), that this will save the country almost 1 billion a year….
Please support me and push this at your next party meeting.
@cal
You are so correct about all of this.
This is why the ‘labour’ party are so loyal to this coalition and are willing to sacrifice their councillors all over Ireland at the next local elections.
Much money in salaries and pensions for the chosen Ministers and Junior Ministers.
Its mercenary and is sick as they are willing to sacrifice the Irish people for the same reasons.
@Cal,
We would rarely agree also! but either way Yes/No we’re going to be screwed with more bills, taxes, new taxes, household etc. I can see a tax nearly coming in to charge families with two cars! even though they’d be paying for their car tax and insurance as usual. I feel he is a bully and he’s not the only one. Yes, he’s probably telling the truth but the way he says it is cold. No, I don’t want him doing a ‘softly, softly approach.
I very much agree with you like many others, it’s disgusting how their salaries and expenses are still so very high. Cut backs big time should be happening in the Dail also. Simple things like lunch expenses, which I am sure would be around EUR25/EUR30 if I’m wrong I’m someone will correct me! They need to do it now at least announce and put it in writing that they will cut back, only a couple of weeks left if they want the ‘Yes’ vote in.
Vote yes or the boooger man will eat your breakfast for you.
Prior to the FF/green government, the FG/Labour of 82-87 was judged by many to be the most incompetent government in the history of the state. This government eventually collapsed when tried imposing tax on childrens shoes.
This current shower of clowns must be admired for their sheer determination to learn nothing from their own past.
Cal. Firstly we are way over the percentage of money the IMF would normally lend us. The only reason they gave us that much is the EU are backing us and the IMF have first dibs on any money in a default. Secondly you may be right if the IMF came in they would cut politicians salaries. However they would cut anything they deemed necessary and since the politicians salaries would save 10 million a year you can be sure the cuts would be felt by *everyone*. The IMF are not some sort of charity.
I can’t help but notice the ranting about pretty much everything the government says about this treaty but little or nothing about the many spoofs told by the no campaign. Yet again a referendum campaign in this country is a sea of crap.
We are going to suffer austerity either way we vote, that is a fact. I’m giving this a treaty a begrudging yes, like many others (including many of our economists).
As people have said, it’s not quite a lie. These are things we need to face up to anyway, starting at the top.
It is a threat though. Noonan is a despicable bully.
I will be voting NO too, and I fear people will be bullied into voting yes . It is up to each and every one of us to explain to the yes voters why it is so dangerous to vote yes, dangerous for our economy, dangerous for our sovereignty, dangerous for our future prosperity. Vote NO and keep voting NO. They bullied people into paying the household tax and septic tank charges , for God’s sake stop and think … What is it in it for the wealthy elite and what is in it for the widow on a pension ? Think of your lesser well off neighbours and friends and family. Vote NO
They have lied all the way through this administration , what is so different now ? Nothing , they are still lying . Vote NO.
@ Gary. Kenny says we don’t need a second bailout. So who’s lying?
The clowns in Leinster house were told they’re 2012 budget would damage growth. Now those predictions are proving correct.
Gary, firstly, the million figure you just gave is totally inaccurate … Kennys total package alone between direct wages of 250k and his ministerial and Taoiseach pensions accruing are costing over 500k per year (that is the cost)… Gilmore is in the region of 400k… These two selfish gits alone would see their wages and pension contributions decimated, saving 700k alone between the 2 of them… You are saying the whole Dail would only save 10 million?
You are right, the IMF are not a charity, but they wanted to offer Ireland a cheaper bailout than Europe (which if they had got their way, would have saved the country 300 million a year, but our EU masters rejected this, because they wanted to be seen to punish Ireland).
The IMF have repeated stated that there should be burden sharing, ie a debt write off on the banking debt… Again, the government and the EU didnt agree with the IMF.
I know that when the IMF go into a country, they slash and burn all waste… I am not averse to this idea, and i dont think too many people are ….
Yes, it would be a hard 3 years, but at the end of it, we would be in reasonable condition…. But FFg/Labours death by a thousand cuts is killing the will of the people… The austerity pact would last at least 20 years, and even then there would be no guarantee we would be out of the woods. The Government and the EU want Ireland to hold onto the 70 billion banking debt. This is costing us 3 billion a year in repayments, which will go up to 6 billion a year after 2015. Who are you kidding … we cannot afford this… Give me 3 years austerity under the IMF (where the IMF come in and tell the EU to shove their 70 billion banking debt, where the sun don’t shine… The IMF put us into an austerity program for 3 years (where we all take our hits), but at least at the end of it, we have our sovereignty, and the understanding, we will NEVER allow a government to do what it did to this country ever again).
Gary – given that the costs the exchequer of aprx 120 million euros to pay the salaries and pensions of Politicians and Presidents (past and present), special advisors, and the CEOs of the semi – states, dont you think that your estimated 10 million cut is way off the mark? I would be hoping that we could save at least 40 million by cutting their wages and expenses.
Bully Boy Noonan?
Has Big Phil The Hatchetman been giving you lessons?
No!
No!
No!
To these Chocolate Mouthed Playground Bullies!!
This is what he said… “It’s very clear on this treaty that only those countries that ratify it will have access to European Stability Mechanism (ESM) funding and there are no other funds.
If there’s a No vote the Budget I’ll be planning for later in the year will be dramatically more difficult than if there’s a Yes vote.
If people think that by voting No they’ll avoid further tax cuts and increases, actually a No vote will do the opposite.”
I just can’t figure out what’s untrue or incorrect about that.
‘There is a commitment that if countries continue to fulfil the conditions of their programme the European authorities will continue to supply them with money even when the programme is concluded,’ Noonan said on RTE’s News at One.
Someones telling lies!
I think many people believe we will get more money even if we vote No, well at least we *might* get more money. But at what cost? And is it worth taking the chance.
Constantin Gurdgiev: Irelands only hope of a trump card is to vote no. Ireland will get no respect for a yes vote.
http://stgeorgewest.blogspot.com/2012/04/constantin-gurdgiev-no-vote-in-ireland.html?m=1
Gary Clowry
I am amazed by your comments . They come across as confused and muddled and I do not think for one minute that you understand or even believe them yourself ..
Typical FG scare tactics!
Fu*king Blackmailing bast*ard. The more these people threaten the more people will vote no. I advise them to stop, it might not then be such a harrowing defeat.
I agree with you, this country seems to be going in hitlers policys direction, heil, or we shoot you.
Noonan needs to be arrested for fraudulent claims.
Why all the thumbs down. The fact is that he is telling lies. We will have access to other funding and if he thinks that for one minute, Europe will let us flounder he is very much mistaken. It is in the best interests of the Euro zone to keep Ireland afloat. Mr. Noonan needs to grow a set and fight like hell for our interests instead of bowing low to the larger states in Europe
There’s very little restriction against free speech in this country, let’s keep it that way!!
@david
Noonan has free speech as do we all!!
However the majority of us speak the truth unlike the golden circle in the dail who tell politically correct (lies) statements to garner a sense if fear in the electorate to push for a yes vote that does not benefit Ireland.
That my young son is the TRUTH.
It’s a very big assumption that we will have access to other funding.
We won’t have access to ESM funding.
IMF funding is not straightforward (hence why nobody can answer that question). We already have well over our quota of IMF funding and we will be dependent on the political will of 3rd world countries who won’t exactly smile on bailing out what is still one of the world’s richest countries per capita. Why spend to ensure we can keep services going when they can’t fund their own?
The idea that we will have to be bailed out to save Europe’s banks is laughable. We won’t run out of cash for 3 years at least and other countries will have plenty of time to head this off. It might even prove cheaper to deal with it that way than to have us borrow from the ESM.
Given the jaunting backwards and forwards to China, and the announcement today that the first phase of the “China Trade Hub” was given the go-ahead, I can only conclude that Kenny & Co have already had conversations with China about borrowing money. If they can get them onside along with the IMF we wont have to borrow monies from the ESM.
Liam all the thumbs down are the ones who would walk on their mother for a promotion and are voting yes.
I don’t care what Noonan says in the privacy of his own home. But as a senior Public Servant I expect the unvarnished truth when he’s speaking to the electorate who elected him
With freedom comes responsibility. A concept that our golden elites find hard to grasp.
Paul L .
The thing is we all want the truth . But we are not getting the truth. Noonan is telling unvarnished Lies.
How can you justify saying mr Noonan is telling lies. He said he will produce harsher budgets if there is a no vote. How can that be a lie? Do you think he really intends not to do this? It is a judgement. Many things can happening between now and dec. 2012. Too much emotive language confuses matters, rather than enlightens.
No confusion here . I will be voting NO.
@Terry I’m not to sure he’ll be there in dec. 2012. to form any kind of budget
Terry, the lies I am refering to are the ones where Mr. Noonan said rejection of the treaty would result in Ireland being barred from accessing most backup forms of funding. It is simply NOT true. We MAY find it difficult to access funding from the ESM… Apols if I misled.
@ Terry. We are part of a program that has our budgets predetermined until 2014. Noonan can only make that claim if he intends to intentionally put more of a burden on ordinary people than he has to, but the overall figures were decided already with the troika. He is threatening working people, and labour should demand his resignation or collapse the coalition
Nothing but threats coming from Noonan. Can some explain why the budget would be harsher in the event of a no vote? As far as I know we are currently in a program that lasts for another 2 years. As of last week according to the Troika’s report we are sticking to the program I fail to see how the result of the vote can have any bearing on a program agreed and signed off on before the fiscal compact was a twinkle in Merkel’s eye. Any chance that Noonan can clarify his claims. Gavan could you ask for clarification?
Will do.
My guess would be that Noonan reckons he needs to be more austere and reduce Ireland’s need for external funding of any sort, apparently believing that failure to ratify the Fiscal Compact would scare off anyone who would lend to us otherwise.
If you’re asking questions Gavin, could you ask if Minister Noonan has heard Minister Gilmore’s thoughts on alternative funding sources?
Or, if we can be cheeky, can we ask when the second referendum (the one we’re going to call after we all say no the first time) is being scheduled for?
We can’t keep borrowing our way out of debt! That’s only passing the buck to the next generation. If people think that’s the way forward then this country is screwed. We need a complete change of direction.
I wonder what effect today’s resignation of the EU finance minister will have on all of this…
This coming from the man who insists that emmigration has nothing to do with the recession. He’s totally outta touch!
Don’t forget that Noonan was very recently claiming that we will not need a second bailout.
He can’t have it both ways. Either the austerity program is working or it isn’t. Surely it’s not too soon to tell…
A friend of mine was at the Limerick Count Centre when Noonan was elected….
My friend’s FB status later that evening “Just seen Michael Noonan pick his nose while eating a Kitkat, and this is man who is to leads us out of this recession!”
Just thought I’d add that little bit of info!
I think the reason a no vote will result in harsher budgets is we will probably have to get to a balanced budget faster and so will be paying for interest and borrowing at a higher rate. This will nean higher taxes and cuts in services. Of course if we get a default and euro exit, things will be very harsh for a while as people’s savings are slashed in value. Pensioners will really have to face tough times and growth in spending from them will drop.
“We can’t keep borrowing our way out of debt! That’s only passing the buck to the next generation. If people think that’s the way forward then this country is screwed. We need a complete change of direction.”
If we keep making cutbacks, the next generation is screwed anyway. We have kids growing up now who are going to have to put up with record classroom sizes, more restricted access to healthcare.
Borrowing your way out of a recession is actually normal for Keynesian economics. When you have an upturn, you actually have the ability to pay those debts back. Berlin is trying to outlaw that as they believe in putting right wing ideology before human life and prosperity.
The Threats are still flying, Piss off Noonan we will kick your party out as quick as you got in. We dont like your party you will never be in government again.
Who would you have in government the other side of the dail are just as bad there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow as some of the opposition seem to assume
Independents.
Jerry, the ULA.
Sinn Féin and ULA are proving to be the best opposition this country has had as long as I can remember. They’re really holding a mirror up to this gov’t and showing them to be the spineless bunch of sociopaths they are. With the help of a few independents I see them firming the next gov’t.
It will be a welcome change to have a government that’s ready to stand up to big business in favour of their people.
We in Ireland are the only country where we have a chance to vote no to this treaty. We should do it for Ireland but also for the rest of Europe. I’d rather be one of the PIIGS than a pig at the trough.
Seems the party direction is bully, bully, bully!
Bully hogan , bully noonan , 4 no votes from my house !
I Would hazard a guess at between 2-4 no votes from every house that refused the house hold charge!!
It’s not in the interest of the country as a whole, Noonan has vested interests as do lucinda, kenny et al re:Europe wage packets and dividends on bonds…The average household will be crushed if a yes vote is passed….and what does it say about the government that continually scares and bully’s its representing nation into submission?
Vote no its the right thing to do for Ireland!
As far as I am concerned the trips to China have not just been about strengthening trade links between us and them, but also about this financial crises. With the announcement today that the first phase of the China Trade Hub, I can only assume that they have already touched China up for a loan just in case we wont do what we are told on May 31st. If Kenny & Co have China on side then we are more likely to be able to borrow from the IMF. The ESM is an evil entity.
Wrong thread Ann !!
How did that happen I posted that comment further up the page and now its duplicated down here – spooks in the machine me thinks!!!
I an def voting no now who does he think he is!! This gov has spent the last year contradicting themselves, they have not got a clue what they are doing.
Threats and more threats. Listening to the radio today and all i hear is threats from the yes side campaign. Biased much?? Vote no…
More threats, is that their default setting? Facts over threats please Noonan. Your fat salleries will protect you and your ‘buddies’ from any and all hardships. Don’t threaten the people you coward
The budget will be as hard as they can make it either way the vote goes and that’s the hard truth of it.
If the yes vote wins he will say,”Imagine how hard it would have been if…”
The budget is already set. Only the speech that accompanies it is dependant on the vote. Another government for the wall
Ok thats fine…you say it is going to be worse if we vote “NO”.
Well then explain to us why it will be worse without lying, expanding on the truth or using bluster, smoke and mirrors.
If it was so important to us as a country then you and your cohorts would have been battering down peoples doors to persuade them with an informative, transparent and easy to understand campaign…but you have not. Instead you have used fear, misdirection and downright lies to try and bully people into believing your story.
Its time we took the German government, the French government, the IMF and the EU in general to task! We are being railroaded by a bunch of school teachers who couldn’t find their arse with both hands.
Did you get your “Stability Treaty” booklet today? I did, it’s got the “Yes for Jobs” only in slightly different language..
I was under the impression we were voting on adopting the Fiscal Compact? This doesn’t have anything in it about jobs or growth does it?
Yeah got the “Stability Treaty” leaflet. I’m still waiting for “Fiscal Compact Treaty” information.
So Minister, thats the biggest threat so far. If budget 2013 has to be more austere due to a No Vote, lets start with your salary Mr Noonan. A 60% cut sounds about right to me.
I love the transparency from our elected representatives. They really think they are in charge of us. This sociopathic government must think we are stupid. Budgets are already set. On Sunday it was reported that Coveney said they would wait a week until the threats started. Another lie!
A gov’t that sees fit to threaten its electorate has lost credibility. This gov’t is using our money to push for a yes vote. Give them a free message that we are not afraid. Vote NO.
Telling the facts isn’t bullying it is simply telling it like it is. Some people choose to perceive this as bullying for some reason. After all we are all free to make up our own minds and vote accordingly. Using your logic you could say that the no household and water charge advocates are bullying people into not paying by quoting off the wall figures of what they say the charges will increase to when in fact no one knows.
He’s not “telling the facts”. He’s making threats. There is a difference.
Don’t worry Censored. With mcbab on the yes side, where can we on the VoteNO side go wrong? :D
Tut, more threats, can only be expected from him, liar, bully!
No , no , no , no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no,no, no ….You are a lying ,cheating Bully Noonan . Nothing new there . You need to be put in your place . NO . Voting no with 5 other No votes in my house !
Well played Noonan… he must secretly want us to vote no, as surely he can’t have expected a positive result from threatening the Irish people. We made threats.
That’s it. No for me. Noonan has just pushed me. Bully bully bully
Cal As an ardent no voter I want to take issue with you about your statement that what needs to happen next public servants have already had their fair share of cuts I have lost 27% of my salary. As the cso and prof lucey state on average the private sector have on average 5 % cuts. Any readjustments needed need to be fair and target those with the greatest income not just according to the sector the work on. A super tax rate for high earners and those with assets is what is needed. I don’t think sf policy supports targeting public sector per se or they are more populist than I thought
Orla, I have stated many times, its those that can afford it, should be paying it .. I am not a SF member, so please dont be under any illusion about that. I agree with you that SFs policy of introducing a 3rd tax rate is the way to go, and i am one of those that will be impacted by it. I would never advocate something like this, if i wasn’t in line to take the hit myself (unlike our FFg/Labour Government members and FF also).
Threatening people with you bullyboy and scare tactics will do you no favours bilbo ! Just keep it up and you will have nothing to do with budget 13.
Surely Noonan’s position as Finance Minister would be untenable if he fails to get the treaty passed, he shouldn’t be around to deliver the next budget if we vote no.
Interesting argument worthy of a separate thread
What about his boss? In fact the whole government. They keep on saying they were elected on a mandate to do what they are doing. Would have thought if they lost the referendum it would mean they have no mandate anymore from the people of Ireland and should resign (not that that would ever happen).
What worries me is who would get the gig in their place? I’m no fan of FG but, for the love of god, look at the state of the opposition. I think Noonan has shot himself in the foot. In a way, I hate to say it but I think he’s probably right: my guess is that our financial state *will* get worse after a no vote and that the budget *will* have to reflect that. But he puts it so badly. People just react to *him* and kinda miss sight of the facts at the heart of the matter. If only we could take personalilties out of this and let machines spit out the information.
How can our economic state get worse after a No vote? We’re already the walking dead economically.
A No vote might just be a way to force a re-evaluation of how Europe will deal with the crisis. Especially since many of our EU partners seem skeptical to say the least. This is a politically motivated treaty, not a economically sensible one. Even the head of the German Bundesbank has broken ranks to claim this treaty falls short (though he also wants to continue the German policy of pretending there is no crisis):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-22/bundesbank-s-weidmann-says-what-no-eu-politician-wants-to-hear.html
Right now we are the poster child for austerity, and our example is being used to bully other countries into toeing the line. But to what end? What is the result of the consistent Merkel/Sarkozy policies of the last few years? Do we see an end to the crisis in sight?
I’m with you on that one Wishy Bone but I would go one step further and say that the governments position would be untenable and Labour should withdraw from the coalition, forcing a general election.
This is a shear scaremongering tactic, this man should resign immediately they should not be allowed do this,scaring people into a yes vote.
Out government is so biased it should not exist, they should have a neutral aspect rather than push it the way they want it.
Enough is enough.
Jimbo most of the NO side accept that a NO vote means harsher budgets NOW but that we have less of a long term burden through a debt write-down.
David, you are a member of young fine gael. You represent the yes side. On this thread you keep misrepresenting the no side. Stop being so dishonest. I represent the no side and we’re not bloody thick. Ireland is locked into a program until 2014, and budgets until then have already been decided. So it does not mean harsher budgets now, unless of course you want to contest noonan will put a greater burden of the austerity thats coming on the poor out of sheer badness if we vote no.
Is that what you’re contresting?
Dead man walking .
I think Noonan has just lost the referendum with those remarks.
Will done baldy!!
We’re f***ed if we do and f***ed if we don’t, but I’m not going to be bullied by a small little baldy man…that’s for sure !!!!!
Final nail on their coffin.
I can assure you Baldy has never experienced proper austerity, sure how could he when hes on a 6 figure salary. Time for Noonan to experience a good dose of reality!
Iceland have been through their crisis and are on the way to recovery and actually returned to real growth this year..
Meanwhile we are 4 years into this mess and their is no end in sight.
In Ireland we are seeing a political class insuring themselves and their patronage serfs from a protracted and drawn out crisis the bills for which are being lumped on us.
Time for this house of cards to fall.
Ive had enough!!
Only the other day you were arguing that Europe wouldn’t allow the house of cards to fall!
i was so its time to call their bluff.
and mr noonan if we vote yes you will take the expected 3 billion this year and next year as has been set but to meet the requirements of the treaty an extra 6 billion in cuts will be needed anyway. so who the f**k do u think u are codding. as iv said before it will be hardship whichever road we take but i prefer the road that we control and not the blind alley u want us to go dwn wit the eu. so mr noonan its still a no. threathen all u want
I didn’t expect anything less from this blueshirt fascist dictatorship! Keep pushing I say to them and maybe people will actually start to realise that it is time to get up and resist!!!!
VOTE NO !!!!!
We were bullied into the Lisbon treaty , TWICE !!
Will we let this happen again ?
It’s call my bluff time .
Maybe we’ll start the Harshness, with you and your bunch Noonan! Lets all vote No and get them out of Government. Have they any intentions of cutting their pensions/pay/numbers, in this budget on a No result!
It’s be a good plan if we had someone to replace them.
We could replace them with a bunch of monkeys from Dublin zoo.
Let’s face it, the people cannot oust the government. Why not talk about a strategy that has some possibility of succeeding? If the no campaign is a strong and determined as it, why not stop the voting on may 31st with peaceful disruption. I don’ t advocate this, but all this writing every day in the journal will not do much, mainly preaching to the converted with some exceptions.
Unbelievable! Normally when someone threatens me to my face I can reply if it’s verbal, or defend myself if it’s physical. That coward noonan is a lucky man he didn’t threaten me to my face….
The only scary thing, is that people will fall for these scare tactics. Sure there is support for a No vote but if our history has anything to prove the general masses will be afraid of copping any further cuts and increased taxes.
Sadly it will happen. The same swinging vote that put FG in power will vote Yes.
Personally I am voting a big fat NO.
Harsh budgets? Maybe so. But at least we’ll have some sort of a start point again, instead of how we are trudging along at the moment. Still a no from me.
How would you define a start point, though? I’m genuinely curious. My genuine fear is that the start point involves run on our banks and a situation where I can no longer afford to pay my staff :(
Interesting to see how entrenched both sides are. Someone asks a question (while expressing fear for the importance of their business) and get a load of thumbs-down? I’d be kinda intersted in knowing what that starting point is too. Still not entirely sure how I’ll vote. Both sides are persuasive (not taking into account the cranks and fanatics who are more verbal here). But it’s all very unclear.
Chris & Tony: I’ve only seen this just now. It’s quite late, so I will reply to this tomorrow evening, to explain my stance in the best way I can.
And so we see the first manifestation of the Simon Coveney “frighten the bejessus out of them” filth tactic. Truth is, of course, Fine Gael will do everything within their power to avoid the second bailout that they claim we won’t need anyways and will budget accordingly regardless of the vote on the fiscal compact.
Anybody got a link to where I can hear noonans comments in their original German?
Pity that Noonan,Kenny and Gilmore (labours way not frankfurts way) actually stood up to Merkle and represent the citizens of this country.Rather than try scare,bully its citizens into voting yes for a treaty that benefits nobody in Ireland.I am sick tired and fed up listening to the same lies been aired on TV and in the print media.When FF was in power we were told the lisbon treaty was good for Ireland jobs would follow.If we voted no US multinationals would pull out jobs would dry up.Now if we vote no multinationals will pull out, money would dry up no way we can function as an economy.The fact is if we vote no the world keeps turning,however Germany and France get a kick in the balls as they face up to the reality that their precious economies and bondholders and the euro is in danger of collapsing unless they ease off on the austerity measures that is strangling our economy.The reason we are been bullied into voting for this treaty is to safe guard the bond holders in Germany and France.I do not see anyone threatening the UK for not siging up to the same treaty.Why dont Noonan,Kenny and Gilmore just put the jack boots on and really do Merkles bidding…..
Blackmail and threats. That was my unconsidered gut reaction when I heard the news this morning.
This type of campaigning from the minister will likely produce the opposite of what he intends.
Probably the best considered and thought out blog .
Noonan, being the typical schoolyard Bully that he is , is probably the best reason yet to get a majority to vote NO.
All he is missing now is the Blueshirt , which I’m sure is very close to his heart! – maybe David , you have a supply of them ? Ha ha ha !
Bully us or beat a yes vote out of us!! To me it’s simple vote yes and we must get GDP deficit from 8.6 to below 0.5 or face finds and money from ECB or vote no have control over own budget and if ECB won’t give us more money simply default on current loans from German/French banks …. Enough is enough
And when we default on our current loans, who in their right minds is going to loan us more money??
there is no question of us defaulting on our current loans. We have met every target the Troika has set for us.
This treaty is about future lending and the conditions on our future budgets after 2013.
It will do nothing to solve the current crisis.
The yes side are campaigning with fear and scaremongering.
They are saying if we dont vote yes we wont get funding which will ultimatly lead to a default.
A default which will bring down the euro.
Its simply not going to happen!!
So please stick to reality and stop attempting to spread fear and needless worry.
@Senan
Please read shaz’s original post, which I was responding to
noonan bullying lol,,, as i tell my kids just say no,,,, to our new treaty, just for noonan and his budget,, NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO, gotta make a poster for my window in home and car,, just say NOOOOOOOOOOO
Maybe he should start at his own wage FIRST – what he does is a threat to the people – HE himself will have no problem. How can a budget 2013 be much more harsh???? My scheme ends now and I am going back to the one parent payment (forced of course) and i live of 200 Euro – any questions Mr Noonan? The people, many not the rich ones of course, live ALREADY in poverty…..
I’ve heard the NO side admit many times that they would reject the treaty and then to counter the lack of funding immediately go about taxing the rich to bridge the gap instantly.
The NO side accepts the higher cost of borrowing argument but believes that breaking from Europe has more upsides including default and independence.
I think the issue here isn’t the level of adjustment but who bears the burden of the adjustment.
How could we reject the treaty and not need a larger budget adjustment?
Having a more severe budget shouldn’t be an issue for the NO side when they admit that they themselves would tax us to the hilt overnight if they were in power.
You tell as many lies as noonan
David, you were on here on sunday saying that the sunday independent article about Coveneys and FG’s use of scare tactics was made up by the journalist. I said that we would hear more of this scare strategy in the coming days and weeks. Care to reassess your position on that article?
This from a government that could not agree on a cake and a few balloons in merrion square park.
This is more of the same from the continuity FF brigade who are happy to do all the home work for the class and delighted to bring home a gold star.
Noonans past history does not bode well for an informed debate.
There is trouble at mill lad and I doubt right minded FG people are happy about “scaring the b jaysus” out of people.
It’s very gutter/great unwashed politics
I think we need more time to consider our options. Rushing into a cycle of deepening debt is not going to work.
The article was in the SINDO with no names on the people quoted and most people here believe every word of it…..
@Jay
David is a politician in training. It’s part of his job disruption to tell lies or as they like to call it, politically correct statements!!!
FG and YFG can’t be trusted!! IMO
Yeah, sure, I’d love to tax the richest class of Ireland. You know, those who’ve profited most from the recession up to now?
Imagine what would happen if we vote yes, but the treaty ends up being thrown in the bin anyway? (as looks increasingly likely, because it’s not going to work)
What would happen to us then David?
@David: If you’re going to contest that 2 days ago a government minister recommended they ‘put the frightners’ on the public, choosing the day a government minister has put the frightners on the public probably isn’t the best time to do it.
I hear the next lie that FG are coming out with (probably in the TV3 debate) is that if we reject the ref then our corporation tax will have to go up as the IMF will make us when we get a second bailout,
never mind that FG will also say that we dont need a second bailout
never mind that FG will say that even when we do get a second bailout that the IMF wont lend to us
I hate the Lies being spread at the moment about the ref
The truth is if this (fiscal responsibility) was proposed a few years back it would of made great sense, but at the moment when we have no idea about how bad this recession is or how bad it might get, limiting the options to get out of it, by restricting our budget options is pure crazyness,
David of course they believe it because exactly what the article said and what I said is what Noonan is stating in the above article! Baldy has started the “frightener” freight train rolling, I’m just wondering when it’s going to derail.
Does this Man not realise it is anti bully week . I myself will be voting No because what else can they Tax next all there is to tax is fresh air and i am sure they will have already looked into taxing that
How naieve you are. Like a previous poster said, most people have no idea what true austerity budgets are. The first things to be hit will be excise and customs duties. petrol, cigarettes and alcohol. The following budget will see a raise in Vat and income tax rates as well as a reduction in social welfare and public sector pay.
Sean, as always, citation needed.
He hasn’t got one Joost.
I’ve yet to hear one accurate or well though out argument from either side in relation to this vote. Nothing but lies and scaremongering form both camps.
Read Article 27, parts 2,3 & 5. Up to yourself from there! (http://www.politics.ie/forum/europe/168553-treaty-establishing-european-stability-mechanism-esm-text-link-discussion.html)
I think the referendum should be put on hold until we have some viable alternatives on the table. All this sabre rattling is only making people panic, though the situation remains that we have a massive problem on our hands which is becoming the great elephant in the room- we have NO money and unless someone comes up with some new ideas, we are going to become the beggars in the eu. I don’t think anyone likes living on handouts.
Sean, the rest of the people have nothing to lose, as they have lost everything as it is … If the EU reject helping us, because we rejected the treaty, then the onus is on the IMF to come to our aid. They can demand massive pay cuts to the highest earning public sector workers (like they do in all other countries they enter). I for one, am not against this …. Are you?? Our Taoiseach gets paid more than the prime minster of the UK, Poland, France etc … you know this … If the Taoiseach really wants to do whats right for the country, he should cut his total compensation package to less than 100k per year ….. That would inspire the people to support his efforts … But as long as he is seen to protect the excessive incomes of the Government, he has lost the argument immediately… Austerity starts at home, not in the pockets of those that can least afford it … Kenny and his cronies have lost the battle for the hearts and minds of the average person … This is evidenced by the House Charge payment record … Less than 50% of people paid it (and that was under threats from every Government minster). If they don’t get real, they will have a lot more to worry about, than this refernda and an unjust household charge.
There is no onus on the IMF to come to our aid Cal. They can deny a bailout. And they won’t just demand pay cuts from the highest earners. They’ll cut all public sector pay, increase all taxes and everyone will suffer. I take it you are living in Sinn Feins fantasy land?
@ Sean. We will get funding from the ECB and eurozone, just not as part of the ESM. They gave greece more money in the full knowledge they will never see it again rather than have a catastrophic default. Do you REALLY think they will let obedient little Ireland, whos in much better position financially and is clearing its debts, to disorderly default, possibly bringing down the euro and destroying germanys booming exports market. Course not. Noonan knows this too.
Sean, My argument is based on fact, and not scare mongering .. The IMF went into Latvia, not so long ago … The first thing they did was cut the highest public sector salaries by up to 40% and the lowest public salaries by up to 20%. That is a fact… I have no problem with the IMF doing something similar in Ireland, but the Government salaries will need to be reduced by 60% to come into line with equivalent sized countries in Europe (right now Enda Kenny thinks he is so good (adn Gilmore) that they are paying themselves the salaries higher than the vast majority of world leaders … Please address this point …
Why in Gods name would the IMF refuse to help Ireland?? I head Christine Lagaarde on Bloomberg last week, and she said she would go back into Ireland etc, as long as they complied with the IMF austerity requirements., That is a fact. The IMF have alsways historically gone after the highest paid public sector workers, when they enter a country…. why are you so afraid of this ? And why is Kenny/Gilmore and Noonan so afraid of this? The IMF publicly acknowledged the government should not have paid off Bondholders etc, I have to admit, i agree more with the IMF than i do with our current or previous governments.
@ cal you’re living in dream land if you think that the lowest paid public servants deserve a 20% pay cut. As a paramedic I get paid little enough as it is…. Another 20% and I would be much better off on the dole….
Robert, when the IMF go in, they target the cuts in public sector wages at those that are over-paid versus their equivalent in other countries… If you are not getting that much, i doubt you will have anything to worry about.
@cal I’m not scared because I know it’s not going to happen but your attitude stinks…. Public servant = paycut. That’s all you see…
@ Sean Beag
Reasons to Vote NO – ESM Entity
Evil Slavish Monster.
Article 8: Authorised Capital Stock
1. The authorised capital stock shall be EUR 700,000,000,000 seven hundred billion .
Article 9: Capital Calls
3. …ESM Members hereby irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay any capital call made on them (…) within seven (7) days of receipt of such demand.
Article 10: Changes in authorised capital stock
1. (The Board of Governors) may decide to change the authorised capital and amend Article 8 (…) accordingly.
To sum up these 3 articles – this amount of money can increase at the whim of the ESM and we MUST pay the amount demanded by them within 7 days, without the right to question it. When you take into account how long banks take to process payments we will in actual fact have only 4 days to pay!! Once the treaty is passed it cannot be reneged upon by any new incoming government from any country. Article 10 allows the ESM to increase this amount legally and whenever it so chooses.
Article 27: Legal status, privileges and immunities
2. The ESM (…) shall have full legal capacity (…) to institute legal proceedings.
3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets (…) shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process (…)
Basically, the ESM can not only increase the amount demanded without the right to question it, they will also enjoy a status never heard of before – full immunity from the law. We can conclude so far, that not only will the ESM be unquestionable but also unanswerable. They can sue us for not handing over our cash but we cant sue them if we find they are cooking the books to boost the euro and or their own lifestyles.
Article 27: Legal status, privileges and immunities
4. The property, funding and assets of the ESM shall (…) be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.
In other words the ESM will be completely untouchable and well beyond any form of judicial, governmental or legislative investigation. The door will be locked and all the warrants from all the courts in Europe wont get you a foot in the door to question them.
Article 30: Immunities of Persons
Governors, alternate Governors, Directors, alternate Directors, the Managing Director and staff members shall be immune from legal process with respect to acts performed by them (…) and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents.
Now this is the really scary one. These people will be un-elected, they will be appointed to these positions. Once they sign the contract they become truly untouchable. They will be answerable only to whichever God they choose to worship. The future under this treaty is looking very like capitalism at its most evil and should we chose to give life to this untouchable entity we really will be facing the unknown. The creation of a new untouchable God and his religion. These people will never be declared bankrupt, they will never have to pay for any mistakes they make. They’ve made sure that their assets and property are completely protected. Even their secretaries are off limits and cant be investigated in case they let something slip.
So to conclude, the ESM will be an un-elected body, that can make demands for payments, which if not paid within 7 days, will incur a fine. The said amount of payment will be set by them solely without interference from any government, court or administration. This body will be under no legal or governmental obligation to answer any questions pertaining to its conclusions. Not only is the ESM itself shrouded in an iron curtain, so are its fat cats and staff. The ESM is the natural and ultimate conclusion to the story of capitalism. The Untouchable Financial Class.
The people at the top need to get out their history books and take heed. Revolution is born out of poverty and inequality. The times they are a changing……
Evil Slavish Monster.
This is the language of the treaty
Have I put that simpley enough for you Sean?
Ann Redfin is a little pixelated goddess!!
Why thankyou Ryan – lol. I spent all day yesterday reading as much information as I could get my hands on yesterday and the more I read the more and more adament I became that I will never, ever vote Yes to the creation of such a monster. To me, the ESM is the work of the Devil and all those that worship there are driven by greed and hungry for power. The whole set up stinks of Lawlor, Burke, McCreavey and B-B-Bertie.
Ann – Just to be sure, you know the ESM and the Fiscal Compact aren’t the same thing?
I don’t mean for that to sound glib or condescending, just thought it was worth making sure.
Well Sean, be careful what you ask for……
Ann Reddin
Now thats a post. You clearly have the market cornered in nut shells. It would help if you could add about 3,000,000 to your readership because you have fairly well hit the nail on the head with that one.
I do Gavan and I wouldnt think that of you ;O) but I just wanted to put that point out there.
The Burning Bush.
When I sat down yesterday and read the treaty I was not only shocked and disgusted with what I was reading , I was actually firghtened. If the treaty is passed this entity of financial and banking elites will be more than happy to sacrifice the lives of 4 million people to ensure that the aging German population will have pensions to retire on. They must be delighted with the knowledge that we have the highest birh rate in the EU to counteract them having the lowest. We are having babies that will spend their working lives proping up the German pension fund.
Gavan
As I understand it the Fiscal Treaty sets the boundaries and conditions whereby each member state can access the ESM Fund which is to be incorporated and administered in the fashion Ann sets out above. The ESM Treaty, which itself may require a second referendum upon which Ireland does have a veto, also requires us to provide 11 billion to the loan fund (1.6 billion is to be available unconditionally and upfront!) Here is a paragraph from a letter by Anthony Coughlan Associate Professor Emeritus in Social Policy, Trinity College to Professor Colm McCarthy Department of Economics UCD of the 29th April:
”That is why I would like to suggest to you that if one takes account of the Fiscal Treaty’s “complementary” treaty, the ESM Treaty – which, incidentally, the Government has promised the other Eurozone States it will have ratified by July! – the most rational course for people to take in relation to the Fiscal Treaty is really to vote No to it and to call for a referendum on the ESM Treaty and its Art.136 authorising amendment to be taken together with a possible second referendum on the Fiscal Treaty, when the full implications of the whole interconnected caboodle have been properly considered by the Irish public and media.”
You can read the letter in full at: http://nationalplatform.org/
It is clear from this and other opinions on the ESM and Fiscal Compact that while they may not be ‘the same thing’ they are very closely entwined and separated only as necessary to avoid some rather awkward EU Treaty rules.
Totally agree John and I guess I should have pointed that out.
If they wotn allow Anglo to fail, they wont allow the State to fail. doesn’t matter which way you vote.
+1million!!
Time to stand up to these bully boys
john i have read up on it. and in my opinion the best thing for my children and the country is a no vote. to vote yes for fear of what may happen and to leave future generations tied to the terms of the treaty is selfish in my opinion. future generations shouldnt suffer cos we were afraid. if the great men from our history were too afraid where would we be. it will be an informed no from me.
Disgraceful carry on for any minister! Shame on him and his party for allowing this.
Remember this is the former Minister for Health who who threatened to drag a dying mother through the courts.
Mickey Rooney with the lies and bully boy tactics again! DIE
It’s just like being back in school…… Do i take narky noonan’s threat of the edge of the ruler for everyone seriously (unless those who intend voting no own up ye’re all gonna get it) or do I listen to Pearcie (They cant expel us all lads). Doherty? Hmm one option makes you feel safe tomorrow while the other makes you feel happy today. Its like a school teacher controlled state with some ex detention boys taking them on at their own game. Happy or safe threat or promise… Toes in lads Eeeney meeny miney……. :)
As unpopular as this comment might be, I think that we need to accept that he is almost certainly correct.
Why hide it from us? If it is true then he is obliged to point it out to the electorate even if it sounds unpalatable.
Unpalatable does not equate to the truth!
Why is he correct prove your statement
Nucky, if the IMF came in tomorrow (without the EU behind them), they would do exactly what they did on Latvia, bring all the Government members salaries down to a realistic level … Of course Noonan, Kenny etc are scraed to crap that they are going to see their gravy train come off the rails … if you were in their shoes, you would do everything and lie about everything to protect your income … The rest of the normal people dont have to worry about these things, as you cant get blood from a stone ;)
Appeal to Force/Consequences.
He’s the one setting the budget. It’s up to him how tough it is. We don’t “Have” to make a tough budget because that stifles growth anyway and doesn’t save us money in real terms, it just gives more room for the IMF and ECB to masturbate furiously at the idea of pensioners dying due to being unable to heat their homes over winter.
Oohhh we so scared Noonan, why don’t you threaten everyone to vote yes or else!!!!!!!! Go F yourself!
My contempt for this man is getting stronger and stronger every day, he is an arrogant bully, preying on the fears of the vulnerable and the just getting by members of our society, basically everyone except the very rich. VOTE NO NO NO!
Vote Yes..
Noonan reminds me of a Bond villain…
Anyway vótáil Níl, or should I say “Nein”..?
glad to see the political sheen falling away, we can all see the real face of this so called goverment. “broken promises” men of no principal, bully bot tactics, fascism at its finest. Blue shirt politics
There is alot of scaremongering from the FG/LAB camp over this referendum, so much so, that it may well be the beginning of the end for them, if they keep on bullying people into voting yes, just because they want to keep their fat wages and pensions. They don’t care about the people at all, so it is financial bullying they are resorting to and they will get nowhere if they keep on doing that.
I think that the only reason this govt has survived is that they have created an illusion that our situation is manageable. I think we are all shit scared to face the truth which is that Ireland is completely bankrupt. I suspect that our debt is a supturating boil that urgently needs to be lanced despite the pain that will cause and the fact that it will not be pretty for some time. Until we actually address the reality of the situation, I don’t think any referendums should be held.
And how do we do that? Certainly not with more austerity.
How dare you, you spineless coward how dare you threaten the people of this land into voting yes cause you will have to answer the tough questions the Germans and French will ask u- why didn’t u force the people in Ireland to vote yes
Minister noonan if ur so worried what the Germans say why don’t u f**k off to there and stay there- ur no loss let me assure u , and missed by nobody here
Vote No its time to show The Government, Europe, IMF, etc that we have a voice
Will we get access to more money- well chief economists say Yes and will get our sovereignty back
Remember what it feels like to be Irish – I do
Is there no organisation / group / person in Ireland that we can complain to about his actions?
It’s defo a No from me…! He thinks we are idiots….!
The massive salaries and pensions theses guys are on is what needs a budget
if we vote no, we are shut out of the markets and measures will need to be put in place to balance our books over night!! (figure of speach), we dont know the meaning of the word ”austerity” if this happens
if we vote yes we have access to outside funding form various sources, irish bond holders will potentially keep calm and not dump our bonds thus keeping interest rates down and we can claw back our sovernignty over time, austerity will continue and we batten down the hatches
this is what i take from this referendum, can anyone with credentials point out where im going wrong,
and the red thumb brigade can f@ck off, its a question not a statement
You’re believing the propaganda being rammed down your throat by a government with a proven track record of lying and deceit.
Thats where you’re going wrong.
the solution to debt is never more debt! Remove the bank guarentees and let germany bail out their own banks!
In terms of sovereignty I think this treaty is actually a one way street. That’s the catch.
Ah come on Ger, don’t come on here asking difficult questions…. ;)
Hi Ger, your language is very definitive- ‘we will be shut out of the markets’ .have you text proof to back that ridiculous claim up? We have already been into the markets successfully this year with the rollover of a Govt treasury!
Let’s debate the facts not fiction please
red thumb brigade?!
do you mean former, official sinn fein member, former workers party member, former democratic left member and now leader of the labour party Eamonn Gilmore?
Ger, have you not yet caught up with the situation? We are already shut out of the markets. The country is bankrupt and we’re staying afloat on “bailout” money from the EU/IMF. The price for this money is very heavy – we’re pretending that the Irish taxpayer can afford to pay for the entire cost of restructuring the banking system … just so we can still afford to pay Noonan’s salary.
Here’s the debt clock:
http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php
The interest on this is going to be 7.5 billion in 2012. That’s 20% of tax revenue.
There is NO chance that we can go back to the markets anytime soon. They’ll just have another laugh at our expense. The deficit and the debt must be tackled first.
Just to point out that if we really “Balance the books overnight”, aside from it *completely destroying* our economy, even the apathetic Irish will get riled up enough to smash Noonan’s skull open. We will have nothing to lose.
And similarly europe will experience a fallout that could seriously endanger them. If they are seem to allow or even aid in the destruction of a nation that’s right next door and visible for everyone to see, they will be seen as both incompetent and monstrous and their political careers will be over, forever. Their banks and any other foreign investors in Ireland would take a serious hit. It would be a disaster.
These are just more threats, because realistically, the Irish economy cannot take any more austerity.
Here we go,more threats!! NO informed debate on the detail in the treaty and how it would be reflected on us.
This threat bares no truth in fact! Where is the text that backs this claim up!??!
Have you ever been in or seen an argument/ debate , where one side had no more ‘comebacks’ so they just reverted to threats in order to frighten the opposition into giving in, to win the battle/debate !?? Any difference here?
noonan
was one of a very select few politicians I had any respect left for, now that he resorts to Logan style scare mongering that respect is wearing thin. stop paying bond holders & bailing out banks & budgets would not have to be so harsh.
sorry should read hogan but most will get my drift
Guess the article in the Indo on Sunday was right afterall.Don’t reason with voters,scare them instead.One question how well did it work with the HHC?
Yeah the SINDO is always spot on with its articles…..
Thanks for agreeing David they were spot on weren’t they.
That’s it Noonan, go for the nonsense fear tactic. Fool.
Weather people vote no or yes the budget is going to be bad anyway they have being telling us this for the last year. so to come along now and try to bully the whole of Ireland into voting yes to suit them is some bloody nerve time to feck of, there true colors showing through now there in power…
Lets face facts…this government were shitting themselves that this treaty may be defeated and I have NO doubt that they had this clause regarding no funding in the case of a no vote inserted ( we know it was done after the initial treaty proposal)..
.and even if it wasn’t this bunch of bandits that had it inserted, then why did they agree to it knowing that there was a possibility of this being defeated in the referendum?
The absolute arrogance of these bastards knows absolutely no bounds…
And as Cal said earlier…at least the IMF were in support of us burning the gamblers.
So .unless some agreement on some sort of write down is forthcoming from our ‘ friends’ in the EU its a NO from me..
We should be the ones worried Turlough…But instead there seems to be a group of people who just want to give the 2 fingers to Europe. No reason apart from anger that they had loads of money 5 years ago and now its all p***sed away on the lavish lifestyle we had as country and in the endless numbers of empty houses that were built.
Be very clear on this…Without the bailout money we recieved this country would have ran out of cash sometime last year and thus we could not have paid social welfare, police, nurses etc… The IMF will not provide funding to any Eurozone country without Eurozone contributing also. 6 or 7 IMF executives have already stated this.
The real scaremongering are the people on the No side…most of whom seem to write on this forum….
The head of the American Chamber of Commerce has said a yes vote sends the correct message to foreign investors in Ireland. The rating agencies have said that a no will result in Ireland being immediately downgraded… Dont ignore reality.
Declan don’t forget no money to pay our invaluable politicians councillors etc .
Well that’s not what I read, the IMF have not said this at all.
Declan Cotter – you’re a hypocrite, you say the NO side are scaremongering yet on the very next sentence you inform us that rating agencies will downgrade us if we vote no….. the day when ratings agencies and foreign investors can interfere in the democratic will of nation states then it’s the death knell for our democracy, you can’t intimidate me into a yes vote, i’m sick of being held hostage by banking cartels, the EU and f***ing rating agencies.
I’ll vote no in spite of these threats..i’ll take my chances on the consequences (if any)..and hopefully others will too if only to send a clear message that we’re sick of quisling government, sick of outside interference in our budgets and sick of being told how to vote.
“If there’s a [Yes] vote, the Budget I’ll be planning for later in the year will be dramatically more difficult [... to read, as it will be written in German]” :)
Noonan has always been the class bully that’s why FG did so badly in the election for the term he was leader. He couldn’t lie straight in bed then and still can’t. I am going to vote NO so hard i will need two pencils.
Jay
Bring your own black pen, pencil is easily erased, and I wouldnt put anything past these feckers.
probably planning to give us pens with disappearing ink! lol
This is the future if we vote no !!!! According to Fine Gael/ Labour . Brilliant . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZfzAOooEOU
We complain when politicians lie, but we complain when they tell the truth too.
He’s just stating the completely obvious. Yes, it suits his agenda, but it is also true.
If we vote no, people who hold Irish bonds will get nervous about whether they will be repaid. The interest rate on Irish bonds will go up to cover this risk, delaying our return to market. To counter this, the government will have to cut deeper and quicker than otherwise. It’s that simple.
To be honest, I think he’s being optimistic when he says there will be a harsh 2013 budget. More likely than not, there will be an emergency budget.
That’s the whole point. If this government do not reform as promised then reform should be thrust upon them.
If you dont know what you would be agreeing to….. dont agree vote NO
If the government cant make it clear what you are voting on…. if they try to cloud it sugar coat it …they got something to hide…..
Then they try to scare you into agreeing….
Like a rapist does…. asume the position or else i make it worse noonan is saying the same thing: Do as he sais….
Let him and the EU screw you
Ed, with respect if you don’t know or understand what you are voting for, then you should abstain and not vote!! It is your responsiblity to have some understanding of what you’re being asked to vote on! Voting No on something you don’t understand is counter productive, cause you don’t know whether it is the right way to vote or not!!
With respect jack he does know what he is talking about the government are economic rapists
This Government cannot come out and threaten a population without some reaction occurring, that reaction would most likely see undecided voters opting to oppose the fiscal compact out of a combination of fear, panic and spite. With polls suggesting a 12 per cent gap between pro treaty voters, at 47 per cent, and anti treaty, 35 per cent, behavior like this could have a massive impact at the polls. In the latest poll on the RedC website it is claimed that the yes side had lost two per cent while the no side was up two per cent, the direction of votes from the 18 per cent of undecided voters will be key in this referendum and may very well spell choppy waters ahead for the Government if these sort of antics continue. All of this is rhetoric they themselves call, “Putting the frighteners on” the electorate and it is a dangerous game in times when the left camp has been growing ever stronger.
This guy is some piece of work. The sad thing is some people seem to be falling for his bullyboy tactics. Kieran Allen on Vincent Brown last night made so much sense. Why is everyone focusing on the (im)possible consequences of a No vote and not looking at what is actually in this nefarious treaty? Again, anyone needing a laugh to escape all this fear politicking should look at this sketch from Dole TV on the Treaty. Hilarious but really sums up the scaremongering http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZfzAOooEOU&sns=fb
why will Enda Kenny not take up Vincent Brown’s invitation to come on to his show and debate the Treaty? Because he cannot justify it? Because he is scared of Vincent? Because he knows Vincent would pick a holes in his reasons for a Yes vote?
Aahh Gemma, you are so harsh on poor Enda, don’t worry VinnyB will keep a seat free for Enda just like the last time!!! Mind you we’ll get more sense from the empty seat!! (sorry that was just a cheap shot at Enda!!)
lol
I agree with you censored. He is making a prediction which the subject of which cannot be a fact. However he is no telling lies either as many comments say he has done. As I said before, too much emotion to get a coherent view of what the readers think rather than feel. As the vote will impact young people more than others, they deserve calm rational thought from the more mature.
The butgets will be harsh regarless of the vote, if we vote YES, we give europe the thumbs up to keep our fishermen, farmers, turf cutters etc out of work. If we vote NO we take back our economic contol but we deal with the problem.
The government are fixated on where we can borrow from next, they seem to believe we can borrow our way out of this mess and fail to realise what is borrowed must be paid back in full with interest.
A NO vote will force the government and the country to actually deal with Irelands problems, yes it will incur higher taxes and charges, so will a yes vote, however id rather pay more tax to fix the problem than pay more to boost merkels balance sheets.
Martin, wrong on so many fronts. Where do people get this stuff from?? For the record Mrs Merkel is paying for out social welfare and the rest at the moment.
Yes Declan, the social welfare which is subject to bogus payments, still waiting for photo ID cards. and the rest, paying obscene salaries to govt advisors, wastage in the HSE. When i said FIX the problem, i meant ALL of the problem.
No Merkel is not, where are you getting this rubbish Declan Cotter.
Noonan couldn’t do more for SF if he was on the payroll. LOL.
Noonan don’t threaten the Irish people or you’ll be out on your arse quicker than you thought.
I wonder is this why they’re after buying 1500 anti-riot visors for the army?? Would they really send our army against the people?????????
Noonan is not afraid of the electorate. He won’t stand for election again so he couldn’t care less about any citizen.
He would not threaten people of he intended to stand again.
Vote “Yes or else!” Well I will be voting No.The scare tactics are not working. All decisions from the previous and current government have been counter productive and we are not moving forward.It is more than obvious that our country is governed by the Troika.I personally do not want to be dictated to by fellow Germans and French.It’s an awful shame. The most positive news today was the go-ahead with the new “China Town” European hub in Athlone.
now now mr. noonan blackmailing the country? its this the way into our future? if we vote no ure goin to tax us more?… well done ur pr..k…
For the record Declan The EU is lending us the money and charging a annual interest rate on it. So Merkel is is not paying for our social welfare etc.
Be nice to Declan he’s only trying to defend the lies and BS the government is spouting,but he means well the poor lad.
What Country is this Blackmailer Representing???
Sick of your Mordoresque dreamspeak Noonan shag off!!
Lying cheating shite
An yes vote means German will enforce more cuts and austerity plans in next budget anyway, so it’s the same in both way me thinks
the people of ireland should not be bullied by noonan and co they shold know we voted for them to run the country ha ha! we can also kick them out not that the other shower are any better
My heart says No! But looking at it from prospect of ‘What if…’, I find myself torn and leaning to the Gawd forbit Yes, direction. However, given the Sarky-arse election fiasco and the possibility of Hollande throwing the ESM treaty out the window, I think it is more prudent and wise of our govt to postpone the referendum till after the french elections. They should reschedule the referendum towards the end of the year and see what happens. It is very possible Spain will hit the deck in that time too, so things could look very different by the end of the year!!
Jack, Mr Hollande will not be throwing anything out any window. The compact will remain the same apart from addition of a jobs clause. End of…
Declan are you an advisor to Mr Hollande?If not, how do you know what he will do?The people here thought we knew what our government would do,look how wrong we were.”Not another cent” “Labours way or Frankfurts way” etc etc …..
Perhaps Declan he will not throw it out the window, but in his view this treaty is a German treaty which he is not in favour. Now if you have one of the two ‘biggy’ countries falling out of bed with the other, the ESM treaty could very well unravel. Why not take a wait and see approach, if Hollande gets in to office and makes no change, well we are no futher worse off and we can then hold the referendum with a clear view of what France is doing. At the moment we don’t know what will happen following the french election.
And you know this Declan because you ?????????
Declan Cotter, where did you get this story about Hollande from, the same place you got the story about the IMF not helping Ireland, if they vote No??????
Jack
Declan is a soothsayer and can see into the future.
thats if you are still in power why the lies be the first to admit that you are wrong
As has been said already, I haven’t heard much from either sides of the vote so I don’t understand how people can jump straight on Noonan’s comments with an “explain how” statement. If anything his statement, although harsh, is correct.
Me, I’m leaning towards a No vote but in saying that I do fear what it might lead to. I think it’s generally agreed that fiscally things would be worse in the short term with a No vote but at least we’d be steering our own ship. However what happens when if we then default? For example will this have any repercussions on the multinationals that give our country such huge levels of employment? I’m saying it will, I’m not say it won’t. The truth is I don’t know. But that’s what scares me. Even though I’m leaning No I’m uncomfortable with it…
Sorry that should read “if we then default” not “when if we…” & also the last line should say “I’m not comfortable” rather than “I’m not uncomfortable”!
Peter, as much as I commend you for voting no, it is beyond fantasy to imagine noonan will do anything different in the next budget based on the results of the fiscal compact. Either way he’ll cut as much as he can get away with to avoid the need for a second bailout and will target the cuts and stealth taxes primarily at the section of society least likely to donate to FGs reelection campaign in a few years i.e. the working and lower middle classes.
I am conflicted about this Treaty. On the one hand, the concept of a debt brake on government spending is, in principal, a good idea and, if properly implemented, should avoid future situations where the government commits to spending public moneys on an annual basis (e.g. new QUANGOs) on the basis of one-off revenues (e.g. stamp duty). On the other hand, a ‘no’ vote will force the Government to address the elephant in the room, the Croke Park Agreement and, in particular, the protection of existing (unsustainable) public sector salaries to the detriment of frontline public services and new entrants. Over 42% (i.e. 179,371) of public servants are paid in excess of the average industrial wage in their basic wages alone. Surely a short sharp shock is better than a drawn out recession. Indeed, given the deterioration of the private sector, it is likely that any further tax increases may not yield significant additional revenue.
Instead of impulsively saying no because you think it’s a way of getting back at the politicians or passively saying yes because you’re too lazy and it sounds like a half decent option, why don’t you read up on what the hell this referendum is about and then make up your own mind as to what is best for 1. You 2. Your country 3. The future generations. We have 1 month to go – pay attention, read up on it and make an informed decision – don’t cut off your nose to spite your faces, unless of course you feel cutting of your nose is the best way forward for you in which case … cut away.
John it should be – decide on what’s best for all the people in the country, not decide on whats best for you, first and foremost! We have become a hugely aggressive and dissected society because of that mantra – look after yourself first- it’s that mantra that we are trying to get our politicians to be moving away from!
Wheres that sense of community, society and a thousand welcomes that we were once famed for but that have disappeared into the night during the Celtic Cod era!!
Vote Yes for continued access to cheap European funds (cheaper than the markets).
I genuinely cannot see any positives from a no vote – perhaps someone could list them out in a clear manner?
Cheap? What country are you living in? My fekin PTSB variable mortgage is cheaper. Even if we borrow of the IMF only, their rates are cheaper and they would allow us to burn the unsecured debt.
Ned
You do realise that if the yes side wins the people of this country are locked into a contract which forces us to hand over 11 billion euros to the ESM? I am sure you are also aware that while Ireland stuck to the budget deficit rules as set out in previous treaties during the early 2000s, France and Germany deciding that those laws did not apply to them. Do you know that the law was put aside for them and no fines were issued. Had these 2 countries stuck to the rules and paid the fines that should have been imposed on them, chances are the Eurozone would not be in the mess it is in. Should we vote yes now, but fail to ratify the ESM we will have handed over our money for it to be put into a fund that we will have no access to.
Should you want to know my opinion on the ESM you can read my post further up the page.
I for one am quite proud of the support the NO vote is getting. I believe the Irish people are well aware of the consequences and hardship that it will bring.
It feels to me as if a nation is finally standing up and collectively fighting to solve an issue and not just pass the buck with more suspect borrowings and loans.
It’s going to be hard, but we need to take it on the chin. The most venerable in society will feel it worse but what can we do.. You don’t keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
The best thing we can do as a society is accept mistakes have been made, vote NO, take the cuts and the consequences and do our best not to leave any portion of society behind. And also remember what mistakes were made, who made them and vow not to make them again..
I could talk all nite but instead I will just say I’m voting No… So is my mum dad and wife..
The majority writing comments are saying they will vote no. But the other most important thing that you must do is convince others to vote No with you… That’s the only way we will blow the treaty out if the water… Gluck
As usual Noonan is his ‘subtle’ self. And we voted this blackmailing bully in! Shame on us. Don’t forget folks we can always vote him out …… This government goes from bad to worse ….. Shame on them. Shame on them.
Noonan is just a puppet for the EU.
This treaty is going to prevent growth in the economy for 20 years and return Ireland to foreign rule.
i thought the nazis were locked up i think they forgot one
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