buckfast is 12 euro in shops and it has not stopped young people drinking it one bit .12 euro is alot for a normal wine

only monday and we have a contender for comment of the week. well said

Great comment. Properly addressing these issues takes time and money. Politicians by their nature will usual go for the quick banning of something or a knee-jerk bit of lawmaking that makes them look good in the media, than a long term proper plan that may take time to bear fruit.

and we’ll see the price of a pint go up too

Agreed. Does anyone seriously think that any of these measures will stop people drinking too much and getting aggressive? Warning signs on bottles of beer? WTF?nnThe problem is not the price of alcohol -it’s the culture that makes it acceptable to act like a drunken idiot. No amount of price controls will change that culture.

FF’s cosy relations with bankers and property developers was of such a benefit to Irish society Labour appear determined to replicate this with the publicans.

Look at Fine Gael first for the vintners lobby! Not many labour TDs own pubs or million euro a year gp practices

Did it years ago.
Cack, and it’s a really weird aggressive buzz.
Not recommended.

You must have done it wrong then. I brew at least 10 times a year and end up with plenty of quality beers wines and ciders.

Made a good few toxic brews with the cans of slop you buy in the health food shops.

I’d rather drink Dutch Gold out of a docker’s welly.

The key is keeping your equipment sterile, I made gooseberry champagne last year, plus an apple liqure

Done properly, home brewing can give beers of much higher quality than the majority of mass produced beers. Kits can give reasonable results, if a bit bland. For the best results, extract or all-grain brewing is the way to go

I like the odd drop of whiskey, but I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow myself up if I tried to make it at home. :-)

Well obviously there’s a world of difference between home brewing and home distilling.

@ Damocles – Don’t get me wrong – I’ve a lot of respect for home brewers, but I don’t have the patience. For successful home brewers, I think the hobby aspect is more important than the cheap alcohol aspect – the time and care invested balances out the money saved on buying alcohol, but the satisfaction of doing it yourself brings the extra worth.

JTHM, with all due respect, home brewing, even from tins of stuff (Muntons are pretty good), requires about 90 mins of effort on two consecutive Saturdays and a small amount of space.

So I don’t think the time expenditure should really be an issue, particularly if alcohol prices are due to increase.

Eoin’s got a point on the flavour issues, but I find that slinging some fruit or honey in and can make a world of difference.

Most issues for people with home brewing come from cleanliness, as per Peter’s sterilisation comment, and small amounts of patience, as you have to wait at least 2 weeks before consumption. Impatience here can lead to many bad experiences for people, raw unconditioned beer’s not the best.

If you need the volume you can double the weekly effort, make 40 pints every week and set yourself up your own wee production line. Of course if you’re knocking back 5 gallons a week the chances are you don’t care about quality.

Yeah, I should say, I’m not trying to put home brewing down here. I’m sure with the proper time and effort anybody can produce nice beers. But if you think you can just go out buy a tin of gloop and a bucket and three weeks later be drinking high quality craft beer for 20c a bottle you are kidding yourself.

You will end up with 20 litres of medical grade colonic irrigant and an afternoon on the jacks.

i think its hilarious everybodies talking about home brewing after that article.
Shorthall needs a good kick up the arse.

Another example of government bowing to publicans! This is all about getting people to spend more money in massively overpriced pubs! So much for free enterprise!

Who mentioned children??? Adults are the worst culprits of cheap binge drinking!

WON’T SOMEBODY PLEEEEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

The majority must be punished for the sins of the minority.

Good old Catholic guilt has a part to play.

Well to be fair there has been talk about sugar taxes and fast food is having to offer healthy options and show calories now. Not really an option with drink is it?

To the best of my knowledge it is treated the same as alcohol, ie you must be 18 to purchase it and it can only be sold during alcohol sales time (10:30am-10pm mon-sat, 12:30-10:30 sunday)! I believe and I am open to correction on this but it is something to do with whats in the beer!

Exactly! And while we’ll agree to disagree on the price issue Rommel, I agree it’s only one step and education must form a major part. I love your point about the camogie. The ironic thing is ppl do not see a problem with that yet are up in arms when they see teenagers and young adults out getting bladdered! We have a blind spot for drink in this country! It’s a simple fact!

@ David – out of interest, what margin do the breweries/ distributers make on each pint?

well said David.

Great points David, one quick question though, do you think that if the pubs lowered prices that people would drink more? This whole debate is based around lowering consumption, not eradicating it. To suggest that making drink more expensive wont even marginally reduce intake in my opinion is farcical.

And that boycott will last how long?

Until about 10:30 on weekdays 12:30 on Sunday, Brian.

It’s not the pubs she is targeting with low cost alcohol it’s Tesco, Lidl, Spar etc

Are people not doing that already?

Yes Stephen and the greedy pubs are behind it all. Its glaringly obvious how corrupt it all is, it about money money money. Its our pub culture which is the problem not pricing.

Well making it easily accessible and cheap certainly won’t help now will it?

“the population are drinking to forget. Problem is they don’t know it”

Must be working then.

I home brew for flavour.

Every family in Ireland has a member, relative or neighbour that has had their life destroyed through alcoholism. The same cannot be said about drugs.

Alcohol is the most destructive social drug in Ireland, from a social and economic perspective and it is so by a very large margin.

Exactly, and I am actually pro legalising drugs, so it’s not a case of being a nanny state, it’s a case of being sensible and rational. I understand peoples gripe with publicans etc, I too have stopped going to the pub because of their prices and mark ups, however, our sensitivity to having a cheap brew should not cloud our judgement in recognising our nations problem with drink and if it does we have a much bigger problem on our hands!

I always felt that our problem with drink is down to our low self respect as a people. It’s basically a coping mechanism.

I can’t agree more Diarmaid, it might be a trite remark but alcohol but alcohol doesn’t cause problems, people who misuse alcohol cause problems, they are the “scourge on this country”. I is not my place to tell somebody how to live their lives, good luck to them, but cheap easily available alcohol and the devastation that it leaves behind is certainly a problem. It is every bodies place to question when a measure of vodka costs less than the mixer that goes in it.

So what you’re actually saying is (and this is part of the reason why I find this so strange coming from a party like Labour) is that low income people or those simply trying to save a few bob can’t get access to cheap drink but if you’ve got enough cash you can continue getting every bit as as plastered as previously? The real root causes of alcoholism (depression being one) are too difficult, costly and beyond the intellectual ability of people such as Roisin Shorthall to address. This is only banning a symptom. The cause remains and doubtless will find another outlet.

Agreed, about time.

I long for the day where Friday and Saturday nights become something other than excuses to drink too much, post complaints about hangovers on Facebook and then blame everyone else for the alcohol issues in this country.

I also look forward to being in Dublin of a weekend evening and not feel threatened by the atmosphere.

@TLL I’m not sure I understand your point? Are you saying we should make alcoholism affordable?

Affordable is entirely relative. I don’t think – to the alcoholic – that any price increment as a result of legislation will prove any deterence whatsoever. Someone determined to drink to the point of severe intoxication – irrespective of the reason – isn’t really going to care if the price of a can is eighty cents or two euro. This legislation (rather incorrectly, I think) is assuming all problem drinkers are either kids or on the dole. This is not the case, and even if it was I doubt any legally mandated price incremenet could possibly be sufficient to make a difference. There’s two things afoot here – revenue raising under the banner of the political juggernaut that is ‘elf ‘n’ safety and a bit of nanny state hectoring from masters of the art on the basis they feel it will get them votes.

Your point is a big contradiction so. You believe price is not a deterrent to people, yet you believe the price should be left low so people can afford drink. Seriously, step back from your argument and think about what you’re saying?

Umm… no. I don’t believe that price is really a factor. It’s not low as things stand, certain products in some outlets are a little over the EU average. I think the political invervention on pricing is the ususal combination of misguided legislation and knee-jerk reaction so favoured by our leaders. It’s especially bad form because by doing this the government can claim they’re addressing the problem while the root causes of alcoholism – isolation, depression, unemployment and mental illness – are left as is. This is headline grabber and a vote getter with the moral brigade while bringing in a bit of additional revenue. Once you take on board that heavy drinking is more often than not a symptom rather than a cause in itself the obvious flaws in measures such as this become apparent.

The price of alcohol is significantly cheaper on the continent, ( €2-3 for wine, 40-70 cent for beer in a supermarket ), yet these countries haven’t collapsed into alcohol-furled chaos. Price is clearly not a significant factor. How we approach drink is a significant factor. Restrictions on when and where people can drink alcohol has not limited the problem, it has intensified it. If drinking outdoors in a public park is seen as perfectly acceptable, then knacker-drinking would be lessened. Making something illicit does not remove it, it makes it less controllable and, for some, more attractive.

We already have some of the higest prices for alcohol in Europe , if price increases were going to work our consumtion figures should be lowered , raising the price simply punishes responsible drinkers for the actions of others for whom price will have no bearing. Shorthall is on a crusade whether it be personal or lobbied. and I see very little opposition to this comin out via media the frontline program on it a while back was a farce.
They subsidise drink in the dail bar but want to charge us more. underage drinking should not be affected. it is illegal to drink under 18, inforce the law that’s already there or raise the age (not that it would work) but they are more responsible measures to raising minimum prices in super markets, exactly as the vintners asked them to do, its a lame political stroke to appease a lobby…

@TLL When are you actually going to listen to my point? You keep harping on about mental illness and unemployment like I do not know they are massive issues. I actually feel more passionately about both those issues than I do this, however, this is not about alcoholics alone, this is about our society and the approach we have to drink. Having a litre of beer being cheaper than a litre of water is absolute madness. Irish ppl have a problem with over drinking, not just the alcoholics and the “Swedish House Mafia go-ers”, but adults too! There are men and women who have a bottle of cheap plonk every night of the week to “relax”, who speak about alcoholics and young people as being the plague on our society. I refuse to see why our hospitals should be clogged up in 20 yrs time with ppl who have cheap drink most days of the week now, and why putting up prices should not be seen as a reasonable deterrent and even if not a deterrent, we should be making adequate tax off it to cover the health implications coming down the tracks!

@ Diarmaid – there is a problem with how us Irish approach alcohol, but setting an artificially high price will not address that problem. The fact is that, in terms of production costs, beer really isn’t that much more expensive than water, if the water has been properly treated and purified. People in Ireland have a very inaccurate view of how much beer costs due to taxes and profit margins. In terms of production costs, beer should be cheaper than coca-cola. Heroin and Cocaine also have huge mark-ups that disguise the cost price, but this heightening of the price hasn’t affected their popularity. Higher pricing won’t help.

Diarmaid, something that is in demand it is not affected by price too much

how easily you forget the housing market only a few years ago

how easily you forget drugs

Your point is invalid. Completely.

Its the ordinary person thats not the problem. The ordinary person who might throw a bottle of wine into the weekly shop so they can have a relaxing drink at home on the couch watching easy tv on a saturday night. Why do these people need to be penalised? the problem is with morons running riot at weekends in our towns and cities. Local councils need to be more proactive and introduce more by-laws to stop public drinking in out public parks and streets. Also Off-licences need to step up to the plate and insist on Garda ID’s for late teens and young persons up to 21/22. The same goons are causing hassle on the streets week in, week out. Greater punishment for Public Order offences and more accountability I feel will go along way in changing the mindset of these people. Get them to mop up puke and piss from doorways and public areas. Pick up litter and wash the fronts of public buildings in high visibility jackets with “Community Service” written on the back. They would think twice about their unacceptable behaviour next time. .

Why shouldn’t adults be able to enjoy a bottle of wine or a few cans without spending loads of money? As usual the moderate drinkers are going to suffer from this. The problem drinkers are going to drink anyway, regardless of cost, the others in their household will just lose out on something

Diarmaid, you really have rustled my jimmies with two of your comments. This self-righteous “clogging up the health service” tomknavery infuriates me. Firstly, the level of free health care you get is quite rudimentary and secondly, a huge number of people who end up availing of it do so for lifestyle reasons. Sports, smoking, overeating, lack of exercise, having the wanton audacity to get pregnant and so forth. It’s an immature argument. Generally speaking, the of person who has a bottle of wine a night, will more than likely end up paying for any resulting ailments themselves.

Also, and the lefties really do need to grasp this one, you can’t go around telling people what to do on the rather specious basis that they might access a health service (which most of them will pay for) at some point in the future because of it. That just doesn’t wash. We already have some of the strictest licencing laws in Europe and some of the most expensive booze. All this nanny state mentality gets us is diminished personal responsibility, learned helplessness and bigger government legislating for every aspect of our daily lives.

A quick few points @tll. Firstly I am not a left winger. Far from it. I despise that sort of action where I am put in a box because of an opinion, in order to enable an opposite political ideal to diminish my argument. Secondly, in relation to your tax point. Smokers are one of the most taxed people in this land, and rightly so. I smoked for 12 years of my life and never complained on budget day because of the cost of smokers on our health system. You also mentioned those who get pregnant. Let’s not be silly here. The children of today are the tax payers of tomorrow vis a vie, they will be supporting us when we re old and grey. My personal belief is adequate tax should be made off every possible pastime a member of our society takes part in to cover every possible cost to society eventuality. For a man who seems to rubbish the left, ironically I’m not sure you know where the money will come from to pay for health and addiction services if you want everything to be taxed so little. I do not want a nanny state, quite the opposite, read my blog on drug legalisation. I do however want a well funded well educated society able to cope with societal and health issues!

Believe it or not Diarmaid…I agree with you… Hope the cabinet push this true….I actually think they will despite the doubting tom’s on here…

Christ Declan , first time for everything ;) I do hope so! As you well know I criticise the govt enough, but I genuinely believe there is good meant in this move and that it will have a positive effect.

2 litres of water in Tescos is 49c, making a litre of water 24.5c, can you tell me where I can buy my beer for 24.9c a litre, I’ve obviously been missing out? Just because our elected representatives say it, does not make it true, usually the opposite of what they say is true.

Perhaps the gov should use some of the tax they earn from alcohol sales and spend it on some European grade sports facilities Like 50m pools and subsidized the high costs of entering these clubs so young people can access them.

so if your throwing a party you have to keep all the empties you have and save them up so you can offer people a drink at your house??? or just pay 3 times more?? hmmmm eh right!

What about people who recycle the empty cans and bottles? Should they be penalised too?

Easy answer – put a 25 cent deposit on every bootle and can, redeemable when you bring back the empties. Give people a facial incentive and they’ll do it, and there’ll be an instant reduction of broken bottles and crushed cans littering the streets.

I’d start with more power to the gardai. Drunk tanks in a&e, personal responsibility for all – you drink, get drunk and get hurt – tough, no litigation for you. You visit a hospital because you drank yourself there, then pay up. I’d almost support a rise in low cost booze if there was a multi pronged strategy but all I’ve seen thus far is “we’re going to raise the price and have some eh….. Education, yes that sounds right, education.”

Start by education. It is not sexy nor is it cool nor is it quick but the long term benefits will outweigh any benefits of a price increase.
The question has to be asked why are people looking for cheap supermarket drink and drinking it at home? Cost and results in social isolation. Activities need to be introduced cheaply to get people together without or with minimal alcohol.

@ Tom – if the cost of production of alcohol is lower than the cost of production of a mineral, surely the retail price should reflect that?

Diarmuid, Do you think raising the price of alcohol in off licenses will help Ireland’s drinking problems? Do you think this the the answer?

It won’t solve the problem no, but I certainly believe we should be making more tax off it to counteract the problems it causes. As well as that putting up the price will most certainly reduce the amount of alcohol consumed by society! I agree with ppl calling for education etc, that has to be the spearhead for tackling the problem, but one measure alone will never stem the problem!

agreed on tax – but what we are actually talking about is addressing the alcohol problem in Irish society and a minimum price for alcohol will not help the problem at all – and the reason I know this is because the we were a nation of drunks before cheap off license booze and we’ll still be a nation of drunks when its gone. FACT.

Diarmuid, whilst I applaud your bravery with sticking to your points and I can appreciate your desire to right the wrongs of Irish society, culturally, Irish people are an extremely sociable group. Our sociability is intrinsically locked (pun not intended) to alcohol. How do you change this? Push a café culture, like in France perhaps?

No. It’s not that simple, just like a minimum price increase is not that simple.

Addicts will always drink to excess to meet their needs, selfishly. Removing more of an addicts income through higher taxation only hurts the addict further and those around the addict. The addict will spend less on food, will spend less on dependents and if they are at the lower end of the social ladder could fall into further debt, resorting to stealing, prostitution or worse.

Do you honestly believe any additional revenue raised by this tax increase will be used correctly in the HSE, given the recent overspending news that has come to light? Given our current bailout deal with Europe, sadly, this extra revenue generation will not be used by the HSE, it will be used to pay the bond holders.

This tax increase is inevitable and will happen, as will the next increase in the household charge, lest we forget that this is a yearly rate until property value can be taxed and water metering introduced separately. What’s the bet the next household charge hits €120? Where does the tax increase end? It doesn’t, not for at least the next 30 years.

Diarmuid, whilst your intentions are noble, they are too simplistic, much like the governments reasons for this proposal. To put it into perspective, a bottle of locally produced Jameson Whiskey is cheaper to buy on the continent than it is in Ireland, that’s after production, distribution, export/import duties and tax costs are added. Similarly, a block of Kerry Gold butter is cheaper to buy in a sainsburys supermarket in the uk than in a supermarket here. Irish people are paying through the nose for everything and it cannot continue.

A little of the point here, but if you really want a feel for how bad it is in this country and the extent of the rip off, I urge you to do the following on Hertz.com

Enter in a 3 week period in August for a car rental in Malaga, Spain. Make sure the country of origin is Ireland. Select a B class car just for comparison, but it doesn’t matter which class you pick so long as you stick with it. I chose a Seat Ibiza, class B. Hertz quoted €666.73 for 3 weeks rental of this car in August, pickup and drop-off at Malaga Airport.

Now, go back to the home screen and only change the country to Spain. The pickup stays the same, the dates stay the same and when you select get quote, pick the same vehicle class and you’ll find the exact same Seat Ibiza is now €333.52. The only difference I found between the two rental agreements when I progressed them is that Irish site gave you unlimited km, whilst the Spanish one gave you 6300 km.

So why the 100% markup? Are we richer than the Spanish? Think about what that means and why we as a nation have allowed for such markups, including taxation. Somebody is making money from all of this. With open European markets we should be protected as consumers against this discrimination. When you try and book under the Spanish website, Hertz.com will only process the payment with a valid Spanish credit card.

A small diversion I know but there you go.

Increasing taxes on alcohol, given the current level of corruption in this country does not serve to deter addicts and to change social habits, but makes more funds available for this government to meet its bailout agreement. I wish it did go into the HSE, as we would not be closing hospitals and reducing capacity if it did.

And I don’t see how putting an extra €1 on a can of low grade lager will help those issues. The people you speak of have bigger personal issues than the price of a can of tuborg. Im not talking about down and outs. Im talking about the everyday people, out getting lashed every weekend people. They’ll buy the same amount of booze they always have but now they might not buy that €30 shirt, or cut back on take aways, maybe stop going the pub altogether and stay home drinking instead. I’ve not seen anything else here from shortfall but a cash grab.

I think you’re missing the point Diarmuid. Pushing up the price of alcohol won’t help tackle Irelands drinking culture and will only play into the hands of criminals as seen with the trade in smuggled cigarettes, drugs and laundered diesel.
An excerpt from an article from the Adam Smith Institute:
“Earlier this year, Ireland’s Office of Revenue Commissioners made a shock discovery, albeit one which sounds slightly dull when put in the language of economics. They found that the price elasticity of cigarettes in Ireland is -3.6, which is to say that a 10% increase in price reduces sales by 36%. This came as a surprise because cigarettes—being notoriously addictive—are usually thought to have a consumption elasticity of less than -1.0, whereas a price elasticity of -3.6 implies that smokers are more price sensitive than people who buy jewellery, DVDs and toothpicks. This struck them as rather counterintuitive, to say the least.
Something was clearly up, and what had been going up was smuggling. Since 2002, the price of cigarettes has risen by 40% in real terms to 8.55 euros a pack and the black market has swollen accordingly. The -3.6 price elasticity figure only took into account legal sales, which have indeed declined significantly. The number of people smoking, however, has not. Smuggled snouts and privately imported baccy have made up the difference.”

What’s most concerning about this initative, is not another politicans demonstrated capacity to pursue completely ineffectual policy, but yet another demonstrated instance of economic illiteracy from our political elite.

Diarmaid Twomey – you are blind.
You seem to trust (our) politicians.
The claim that higher prices will reduce our problem with alcohol is SIMPLY 100% RIDICULOUS.

Can people make a point without insulting the other person at all on this site?

Sorry, but the idea that increasing the price of alcohol is in any way a genuine effort to improve the health of the nation is an EXTREMELY GROSS insult to my intelligence and my humanity.

I agree with your statement except for the part of putting up the price as a solution. It is not, it is most effective as a tax revenue raising measure. You talk of logic, answer this then putting up the price has failed in the past why should it work this time?
I would like to see proper measures put in place to tackle alcoholism. One such measure (& one that benefits me more than most) would be the introduction of alcohol free night clubs.
Education on the biological affects of alcohol should be introduced in 6th class a lesson on taking the pledge until you are 18 from a peristaltic & how breaking it is a sin is a joke. Facts not fear is what is required.
Alcohol should be banned at all sporting events held in stadiums with a capacity greater than 1000.
The pub is seen as the main meeting place for people to socialize why not try to introduce social clubs with an exercise element (such as bowling, pool, Darts), where the emphasis is on moving rather than sitting watching a game on TV while taking a sip. Human interactions suffer in pubs.
Health and general well being can be improved by reducing alcohol consumption but a price increase will not work.
Education, social and activities will work on reducing alcohol consumption in Ireland. There is no real will to change Ireland’s drink culture, there is only the greed that Politics and lobbyists feed their egos on and this approach to a serious issue is reprehensible and downright disrespectful.

Increase retail price of alcohol? No. Legalise drugs? Yes Tax on sugary / fatty foods? A qualified yes. Fat and sugar content should not be the only factors; diary products shouldn’t be taxed, even though cheese and butter have high fat contents. Similarly, many fruits contain a lot of sugar. the tax should be aimed at highly processed foods.

I would be very much open to legalising drugs. I don’t know the pros and cons or details of fat tax, but would support it if implemented sensibly. Food companies are tricky though, they’d most likely make a non- sugar synthetic to avoid tax. I’m against this as its legislation where education would suffice.