This would mean we pay a % of bailing out any of Europe’s banks as we has already signed up to ESM so we can only assume at the moment that its a 2 way street. Which will be the more expensive is the real question.. Fingers crossed.

Good for you. I agree that our government has been and is unacceptably lax in their dealing with the situation, the majority of commenters would probably agree, but there has still be no motion in to call for a vote of no confidence. I am obviously not condoning rioting, but our situation is out responsibility, grumbling without actively seeking chance hasn’t improved the situation over the past two years, and grumbling without action will not save us in the future. Shouting on an electronic soapbox alone will achieve nothing. Rejection of all options will achieve nothing. Alternatives, possibilities, solutions, that would earn my respect and support. Venting is an Irish obsession, but it’s highly overrated.

Exactly. With all the false dawns Ireland has suffered the people will be optimistic with results. Promises are only words which Bell-Enda and his cronies are good at.

Shup pa… i have to agree with you tho. Ill be happy when i actually see some debt knocked off. Seems that the bond markets see this a possibly good deal for ireland. Irish bonds trading below spanish ones today. Then again we all know about bond market rallies

Not a hope. Those muppets who represent us couldn’t negotiate in a flea market.

No, Andrew, we’re broke and under water, thanks to Fianna Fail.

And we remain broke Paul thanks to the combined efforts of Fine Gael and Labour.

dont beleive thats what this deal means at all…

Pierce, you must be the first political party member (Non-governmental) who locks their twitter account to ensure that no-one can read their tweets, or see who they are following.
I was really interested to see which party you belonged to, because i have seen you write a lot of comments over the last few days support FFg/Labour and slamming and questioning SF.
You can see how i would be perplexed and intrigued to find out which party you would be involved in.

Green Party Cal, hope that is of some help to you

Bit weird Cal the way you research people???? I could not be bothered…

Sinn Fein likes to keep tabs on us. They’re building that big list of who’s really “Irish” in their eyes.

Some how ,it cheers me that we have SF keeping tabs on the situation than being on German lists that they get from data received from registering for hhc or water taxes etc . I am glad SF are on our side, because as sure as day is day and night is night , FFG or labour are not on our side .

Whether we need another referendum depends on how Thomas Pringles challenge goes Shayne. The suggestions during the Compact campaign was that we would have to put up to 11 billion into the ESM but we may not need to actually go out and borrow this. The real cost will be the difference between what we will be paid for the original debt we took on to “invest” in the banks versus what what the EFSF/ESM might pay us for “taking the banks off our hands”. I would venture that this cost will be somewhere over 25 billion which we have already borrowed and continue to pay interest on.

Thanks Sean

“get back” lmfao lad whats gone is gone we ain’t going to get anything back!
I hope that we won’t have to put more in is all.
I still believe the euro has to colapse and all debt be wiped out to start again and move forward.
Little patches and stop gaps won’t fix a broken system!

Absolutely Andy!

Peter: It’s bad news for Sinn Fein and the United Left Alliance. That’s what they mean.

Thanks for that Paul. I’m just trying to understand their level of pessimism. When something good happens, for a change, it must be bad? If this new policy benefits Ireland and Europe in the slightest way, how bad? Plus, Merkel doesn’t seem too happy about it so it must be good.

It doesn’t address key issues like how Italy and Spain are going to be funded by the markets at a sustainable rate, and yet stay in the Euro.

Until the Eu/ECB starts to talk of a package that will run in to the trillions over a number of years, then it really is a small step.

This is a positive thing, but most people are going to wait to see the full plan, there will be lots of stings in the tail, and it might be yet another too little, too late from Europe.

Peter.
You might see it as pessimism and deride them for their opinion..however, have you not considered all the pledges and assurances that have gone before. All seem to be lies or totally unsustainable.
To my mind, its not pessimism, its a realistic approach to a situation.
If you saw a train coming into a station which had been off the rails several times on its journey, over loaded with passengers and then you hear over the speakers;
‘ Please embark with a smile on your face, hand the keys to your house to the guard before you embark. Oh, and please dont be put off by all the derailments and the crash we had the other day. This train will arrive at the destination in the next ten years, we will hand back your keys on arrival.’

Paul…. yawn.

@Fagan – Yes it does address that. Spain’s bonds were moving up because of the weakness of its banking sector and the perception that if it borrowed from the EFSF or ESM that money would become the debt of the sovereign, as happened with Ireland, thus making its sovereign debt unsustainable. Now that the banks can be funded without any impact on the sovereign that issue doesn’t arise.

Jim.

Italy’s debt outside of bank recapitalization is quiet large and is problematic. Spain’s less so but once the regions have to be bailed out then it may too fall.

Thing is, are these 2 funds large enough, judging on figures from Spain, they are not.

It is however looking like a real leap forward tho.

Winston, our Government had no hand to play in any of this deal.
It was down to the Spanish Government refusing to put the private Spanish Bank failures onto the shoulders of the Spanish citizens. The French supported it, because, with Hollande in power there (Mekozy dictatorship broken) saw the failed policies pursued by Germany as being totally unfair. The Italians supported it, because they were next. Ireland, regardless of what you think about its leaders, are a very very small piece in the overall Eurozone economy, sitting on the fringe.
This is Irelands opportunity to borrow 60 billion euro from the Irish Banks, and then to ask for a Bailout of the Irish Banks, just to settle the score. Remember, we have already handed over 3.1 billion this year so far to unsecured Bondholders in the failed banks. That was our money, not Kenny/Gilmores money. They are financial terrorists, who only want to maintain the status quo, long enough to get their pensions for life.
The Irish people need leaders in Government, who are willing to play chicken with Merkel, and demand the immediate removal of the banking debt from our sovereign debt.
17% of every penny we pay in PAYE, PRSI, VAT, etc goes to service the private banking debt. How anyone can think the Goverment is doing a good job is beyond me.
How much has any Spanish citizen paid to service the Spanish banking debt issue??? Nothing, Nada, Niet.
Our Government have sold us down the swanny, and are now looking for praise and recognition for doing it. And they have their FFg/Labour lackies on this site, trying to convince you of the same. Don’t be fooled.

Ironic that you think we have the right people in government to see that the books are done properly while at the same time being happy to give away more of our economic sovereignty in the last referendum.
Everything comes at a price so I wouldn’t be getting too optimistic just yet.
I’d rather wait until we know what we,as an insignificant member, not quite at the heart of Europe anymore apparently, are expected to concede in return.
Are we heading towards another referendum anyone? I think so.

Are you kidding me..the only bright spark in this goverenment is Leo..he talks sense. As for the rest…eh…no!

It can only be taken as good news. Only 17% off our debt is actual banking debt the rest was borrowed to keep the country afloat. We are still borrowing 15 billion per yr and this gap has to be made up through increased taxes and more cuts to public expenses (this is our debt). Through poor finance polices our former governments have put us in this position and no playing ‘chicken’ with Germany or Europe will get us out of it.

Owen, for me the point is that any deal made now is too late.
The Euro zone is in demise, its on life support and its just a count down until the plug is pulled.
There.. On that I am optimistic, extremely optimistic in fact and its only when you get down to the bottom that you can truly start to rise to the top again.
The whole Eurozone is in decay…. Roll on reality a Government with Empathy and not trying to line their own personal nest.

Owen, that 17% that is the banking debt should have been removed from our shoulders in this deal. Maybe if it was, we wouldn’t have to make such huge savage cuts to balance the books… This deal is bad for Ireland. Spain and Italy are spared from making the same cruel mistake that we did and it’s great for them. Nothing has really changed for us at all… The bondholders will still get paid next month as they did yesterday and it will go on, through borrowing, until it’s all paid off in full. We are stuck with 17% (almost a quarter of our total budget to service bank debt which will have to come from such spending as health, education, welfare, ect.), and rising, deficit in our budget for life… But by all means keep thinking this is a great deal….

“play chicken with Merkel” oh god I almost spat my everywhere reading that. Doing so would be an ant squaring up to a JCB and you’d be fairly stupid to think otherwise. The mere fact that you’d suggest it renders me to not bother reading your replies in future, what utter nonsense.

Just remember, without us voting for the fiscal compact recently this would not have been possible.

Once again, the vocal minority of Irish society that occupy the comments section on TheJournal.ie have been shown to be utterly disconnected with reality and their fellow Irishmen.

Waffle on lads. Today is a good day for Ireland, it’s people and it’s government and you contributed nothing to that in any way.

Owen, you really dont get it. We would never have needed the EU IMF bailout, if we didnt have the banking crises. The Irish people did not create the crises, the bankers and gamblers did.
We would have been borrowing to pay for our services, that is for sure, but we would not have been charged the punitive 5.6% the EU were charging us, for bailng out their banks.

Yes, we need fiscal discipline. There are two way of addressing the budget deficit. One, cut the crap out of everything and tax everyone to the hilt… And funny, after trying that for 4 years straight, we have exactly the same budget deficit as we had 4 years ago, and a lot of really p*ssed off citizens as well….

Or, you could try something that has been tried, tested and proven to work many times around teh world… GROW YOUR WAY out of recession. Tax the highest income earners, but use this money to give tax breaks to the lower/middle income earners.
Peole can go on about our GDP growing, as much as they want. GDP works for FFg/Labour, as this figure includes the likes of Ggogle, Microsoft etc… But GDP doesnt factor in that most of the profits the multi-nationals make, gets repatriated to the US.
The correct and most accurate metric to measure our economy is GNP. It has shrunk over the last couple of years. This indicator only looks at the domestic economy. We need to grow our GNP. How do you do it?
Stop cutting the lower/middle income families.

Once we grow our GNP, the National budget deficit will automatically start to grow… And therefore our fiscal situation improves, and in the not so distant future, we will be back in a budget surplus.

For FFg/Labour to continue the FF philosophy is mind-boggling. The only logic i see in what they are doing, is trying to keep the boat afloat, long enough to ensure they get their phone-number pensions for life, and then get the hell out. This is not what Ireland needs. They need people with a vision and a plan. Sadly FFg/Labour are lacking both.

Please Winston…what pills are they?

I see the fine Gael press office are busy this morning

Shameless propaganda Winston..

“The right people on government “, yeah right, the same people who pay themselves and their advisors crazy amounts of money and then decide to cut the disability allowance and respite care for people
Answer me this Winston why is Enda Kenny paid more money than Obama and Cameron and even Merkel I’d love to hear your justification

Winston you are wrong to say this wouldn’t of been possible without us passing the fiscal compact, Germany, France etc haven’t even voted on it yet! if anything it proves we should have delayed it as now we might need another one..

More shameless propaganda and I say that because I think you are to smart to believe what you are saying.

It’s Winston FG/labours very own nodding dog …… O Yes , Yes

Winston, have you been at the bath salts? This ‘government’ is cannibalising the people of this country. And for what? To further line the pockets of a few greedy fat cats

Well Winston gone all silent about Enda’s wages are we?

I see the Shinnerbots are getting worried that the ESM, which they voted against, will be the thing that helps us with the Bank debts.
God forbid what they will do when everyone realizes that most of our debts and borrowing has nothing to do with the banks though.

Well we don’t have complete dirt bag criminals, thieves and traitors like FF in govt. but lets not dress up the FG/Lab coalition as anything but a continuation of the gom politics, protect the status quo and screw the majority politics of the past.

I do not trust this government , They are like minnows onv the backs of great sharks ,picking up tidbits from Spain and Italy … I want this dfeal written out in black and white so I can read all about it rather than take Gilmore’s word . I do not believe anything will be retrrospective, but I do hope it takes the burden of debt off the tax payers ….. I may as well dream here !

Neil, admit it. You’re just a robot yourself aren’t you? Posting the same silly comment everywhere. How about: Brain … engage!

The bank debt HAS been removed from sovreign debt THATS PART OF THE DEAL and our bond yields are down to 6ish % (good news) ..I am sensing most people don’t really understand whats going on

There is always going to be negativity and likewise blind optimism, I’m more about productive inquisitive debate as we never get the full story and learn more about our fate from the Bundestag than from our representatives..
I have to find a few minutes here and there during my 60/70 hr working week or when I eventually get home.
The vast majority comment because they care about their country and for those that give out with no real point, its got to be a better vent than rioting like other countries..

Karswell, I’ve noticed that you spend a lot of time on the journal complaining about negativity. Do you see the comedy element in that?

Louise, The bond yields thankfully have come down! but based on the “Commitment to investigate Ireland’s situation”. The deal to move the debt from sovereign to ESM is for all countries going forward. Our debt has not been swapped yet. Fact.
To be clear; Italy and Spain got the deal + they will look into how to lesson the debt on Ireland.
Fingers crossed.

David, people are moaning because they have a lot invested in everything going wrong for Ireland.

Any good news is automatically rejected and not taken for what it is.

People quite rightly question any “news” that comes from Europe and especially from the Government here as to whether it is actually in the Irish peoples best interest. Past experience is a great teacher like that.

That’s fine Rommel but some people are unable to conclude, no matter what the evidence, that something is good news.

We have all been saying for a very long time that we need to get a deal on the bank debt. That appears to have happened.

IMO, this would not have happened if Sarkozy had won the French election. That is the key difference. France siding with Italy and Spain.

I am hoping it will work out but as you say they don’t give a monkeys about us so this could work out dearer for us. That’s why I was hoping someone could answer my questions above.. Don’t confuse the moaners with realists with questions.
The answers are in all of our interests.
Someone has to ask as the government go blindly on the coat tails..

Shayno, I suspect the hole in the Spanish banking system is far greater than €100Bn. The only way to fill it will be via printing.

Donal we all, each & every one of us, including you have a vested interest in what is happening to & in our country.

People are not “moaning” for the sake of moaning. Peoples lives, their homes and jobs have been destroyed as a consequence of political descisions taken in this country in the past fiftheen years. So It is rational then that when Enda comes back from ANOTHER EU Summit talking of “siesmic” deals that we be somewhat sceptical.

Donal, like Yvonne says I have every hope of good news for all the people of this Country. As you say yourself a deal on bank debt appears to have happens. I place the emphasis on the word appears.
When it’s all out there in black and white and not being spun by the Government or anyone else then I’ll pass judgement, not before that.
No party line to toe just reality.

Most of them have not got a clue what it means because they are economicaly iliterate …it means the bank debt is separated from our sovereign debt…the bank debt is not ours but the ESM’s and our govt bond yeild are down to 6ish% which is good ..Ireland saw the biggest drop in bond yields of all…we actually did the best out of this of all countries and the markets are loving it.. goldman and sachs have told people to buy spannish italian and Irish bonds…if the bond yields hold around this level…then we have turned the corner …and this austerity last a year or two not 20 ….one or two tough budgets and we have to get the deficit down further but ..techically we went to an almost model economy over night…..i was sceptical of the eu …but actually short of fartiing billions out of there arses they have given and done everything they could have especially the germans…unfortunately people can’t work it out yet….the bank debt is no longer our sovereign debt…the esm fund owns the bank debt now….it also owns the banks…..and the phrase ‘burn the bondholders’?? Capitalism burnt the bondholders …gently …and they are still loving our bonds because we are a nice stable country that uses reform and diplomacy and not riots….i am a social democrat …i believe in public serives healh care etc..but i also believe in capitalism…SUCK IT SINN FÉIN

Sinn Fein desperately needs Ireland to struggle.
More demagoguery, more votes.

And God knows thejournal.ie comments boards are SF heaven.

Yeah, we get it Neil, SF caused the banklng disaster, SF caused the banking debt to be converted to sovereign debt, SF wrote the 6 billion in checks to pay the unsecured bondholders over the last 2 years…. We get it, its all SFs fault. Thanks for pointing it out.

You just defined negativity..

David, i am commenting on another thread, trying to talk up the Tourism industry, and i have a FFg blind faithful on the thread complaining about the Irish open being played in the North, even though it will result in more tourists coming to the Island… Like, come on guys, you need to do some joined up thinking… can you not all get together and work out a unified approach to what you guys want… Really, its like watching kids fighting, reading your Partys comments. We had all the FFg ministers trying to play down the meeting between the Queen and McGuinness this week, even though the rest of the world thought it was a great thing and put Ireland in a very positive light around the world. It was a fantastic show-case to say that Ireland is open for business… and guess what .. your party leader was in the Dail on the same day going on about the IRA. Seriously, you guys need to joined up thinking, but you all come across as a leaderless bunch of individuals with no plan.

what good news? read the article properly, nowhere does it say that a retrospective deal ,which is what Ireland needs, can be done,, we have already payed out to the banks and bondholders and thereby set a prescient, do you really think these blood sucking leaches are going to allow us to stop handing them wads of cash every few months, if so you are truly deluded. it will be pay pay pay for the next 20 or more years. as for thanking “our leaders” the government is full of toadying yes men, none of who has the balls to stand up to Merkal and call for an all out write off of the bailout money, that is the only deal that will get Ireland back on track, until then we just shut up and pay up.

Shane,
It sounds like you are dissapointed with this news???

Is that the solidarity of pay your own bank debts and % all of Europes?
We are the fingers of Europe and they were willing to chop them off, only now that the infection is spreading to the organs of Europe are they willing to administer the medicine…
Solidarity my are.

It’s more than Vincent Browne that predicts the end of the Euro. At this stage it is hard to see how it can survive at its current size.

The only term solution is to put in place a plan to ready 7-8 countries for leaving the Euro and supporting them in a transitory phase.

Me? I’m hoping its great news obviously as despite all the different views we all have the same goals I hope.
I will reserve my jumping for joy until we know for sure that paying into ESM to fund all of Europe’s banks liquidity problems is actually cheaper than the situation we are in. We don’t want to get all excited and then look very stupid.

I’m actually surprised how people are reacting with just a commitment to “investigate” our position given our treatment so far.

Looking forward to seeing some proper analysis.