I don’t think anyone is begrudging them good pay for difficult and responsible work; what is galling is how disproportionate the pay is in comparison to other countries with similar standard of living and how much they can earn on the side using public facilities for private work.

But I agree about the cuts across the board. It’s the ones on top who get the most and have ways to deliver the least, while juniors are outside looking in but it’s them who will bear the adjustments.

I think the point is that with limited resources and services being cut….any doctor worth his salt should realise he is taking medicine away from the sick in his obese paycheck. Same for our TDs, CEOs and assorted tax-dodging snorters at their various troughs.

And nurses work equally hard, as do miners, fishermen, binmen…under worse conditions.

I believe the word is triage..a matter of prioritising, not begrudging. Personally I think the gluttony for money at the upper reaches of social pyramids represents a symtom of psychological ill health, a basic insecurity requiring the crutch of status and over-reward…but maybe you can give me a second opinion.

Gastrophase ”how disproportionate the pay is in comparison to other countries with similar standard of living ”

Recently returned from canada. Consultant (or attending) is paid 300-500,000 dollars per annum. Irish graduates and consultants generally work longer hours, are more highly trained having worked abroad. Even the current contract consultants who remain untouched have nowhere near approaching this level of pay.

The new contract for new consultant posts is grossly under this wage. Similar standards of living and pay in canada i think?

As for nurses miners binmen working as hard…
Simple question, should doctors be paid more per hour than the above professions? Yes or no. If it breaks your heart to say yes, you are living in the wrong country, decade, and planet. Get real please.

Once you have gotten this straight, then the question is simply ‘by how much’.

I’ve no problem saying yes..and it is about ‘how much’.

Equally, should half a million people, most of whom want an income besides the dole pittance, be left idle, or should the working week be adapted to take account of the bones of a century’s technological and other productivity advances??
Our whole system is out of balance, and that is reflected in to squalor of homelessness amidst a glut of houses, and an economy choking on austerity for the many, alongside obscene luxury and privilege.
The Hippocratic oath includes economic harm, and in a society with limited resources, those seeking Beverly Hills lifestyles in the midst of poverty, and at the expense of those impoverished(its not a state of nature or an accident)cannot insulate theemselves from the social costs of their blind-eye syndrome.
The system is broke, redundant, and unfit for purpose in the 21st century…but the entrenched and accumulated wealth of centuries seems devoid of the nous to read the runes. Its the same ‘free marketeering’ that brough us centuries of war and colonial famine, and a century of emigration since independence. The problem is, its a global system..and the ‘players’ will never satiate their gluttony…that does not mean we should aspire to ostrich-whisling through the elevated sphinter. There are alternatives. But the wages of the necessary work are something less than the average consultants. But then it was a surfeit of astronomically remunerated economic consultants cured our mirage Tiger.
In the 19th century doctors were so primitive they took an interest in the social causes of sickness…but that was before the sickness industry went totally septic.

Cormac, I don’t think people are begrudging the success that comes with hard work. You’re right, the pay cut for new entrants only is sick. Another sign of the sickness that is killing this country. We can no longer afford the pay and conditions that were previously provided, but the cuts should be fair. You cannot keep a country running this way.

Dukezeal, no binman or nurse gets paid 150k, get real yourself please. Compare pay scales with Europe… with Germans who bail us out. Sure, whoever want to go to America can do so, makes you wonder why are they all here still. Something to do with years required to retrain maybe?

Gastrophase.
”Whoever want to go to America can do so, makes you wonder why are they all here still.”
They aren’t? Are you blind to people leaving these shores or in total denial? Depends on area of course, if you are in dublin you could probably be forgiven for thinking young people abound, as most young will flock to capital cities in times of recession. But check out the rest of the country eh :)

”Something to do with years required to retrain maybe?”
The M-cats or equivilant require no years of additional training they can be done on the job, irish consultants rate favorably vs international counterparts and can walk into a job no problem. USA depends on state( most no problem), canada depends on province (again, most fine, even begging for docs), oz is fine all over. What on earth are you on about mate..

You don’t see older consultants emigrating, they have it too good with the amount of private practice they are allowed to have. And if the younger ones want to take their education abroad you can’t stop them, unless you make them obliged to pay it back if they emigrate. We will get medics from Europe or India who will find these salaries worth their while, and with lower salaries we will be able to afford more of them to ease the load. That’s how it works these days.

I’ve spoken to a few doctors today, and yes a couple of consultants too. The consensus is that this is a very bad idea, yes they concede they are well paid but then they worked hard to get where they are. Lets be honest, who began to plan for a career in medicine in their early teens and began to put their head in the books then? Once you get into medical school its a long hard slog to become a consultant, you may be in your late 30′s by the time you reach your goal. The failure rate is extremely high, not everyone becomes a consultant.
Most believe if the reward at the end of the line isn’t sufficient in Ireland, where we have desperately overcrowded hospitals and a health system that is begining to break, then our doctors will simply leave. When fully trained most will go to sunnier climates with better, less stressful health systems. What we will be left with is a situation where we have to import most of our doctors, we’ll be scraping the bottom of the barrel, taking doctors who can barely speak english, if at all, and you wouldn’t or couldn’t get a job anywhere else. Sound familiar? Sometimes you do get what you pay for.
It was also pointed out that many doctors will prefer to become GP’s, as this will be a shorter, quicker route which will give them the opportunity of a much bigger income. Some GP’s can earn up to €1m per year, and bear in mind most of this is cash, many easily earn double what a consultant earns while working for 6 or 7 hours a day no more than 5 days a week.
It is widely felt that that this decision was a PR political one and had little to do with saving money but more to do with making politicians look tough. That said, every doctor I spoke to felt it was a foolish mistake that will ultimately blow up in their faces in time, by then however it will be the patients who will suffer for the politicians incompetence.

@Rusty Balls very well put and you’ve hit the nail right on the head.
The other thing that may happen with the consultants that do remain in Ireland is that they ONLY go into private practices/ hospitals and there will be no consultants on the public payroll.
Now they can charge you what they like for a consultation. That present it’s anything from €190 up privately.

Rusty Balls, and erm what did you expect them to say?…
As to importing consultants, this year an Irish consultant told my colleague who went to see him with suspicious symptoms that breast check before 35yo (as in, manual breast check you perform yourself) is a waste of time and shure you will only stress over it. Well tell that to all those young women who died of breast cancer diagnosed too late, when it’s actually more aggressive in young people. I dread to think how many other women heard that nugget of wisdom and believed his authority. If consultants like this one want to emigrate, we’ll only be better off. And I’m sure there are many who will only be too happy to apply for an Irish salary which is still very generous in comparison to the rest of Europe. If we get them in numbers high enough to ease the workload now that we can have better value everyone will be happy.

Gastrophase,
The HSE had to literally drag NCHD’s here last July, and they still couldn’t fill all the posts. (the advertised ones, let alone the fact that Irish hospitals are not known for their over-population in terms Of medical staff).
The days of little old Ireland is a great jobs destination are well and truly gone, gone, gone!

@Gastrophase I have to agree with Michael, we tend to look at things from the inside out but abroad our hospitals have a dreadful reputation. As things stand we would struggle to attract consultants to Ireland, any consultants. If their salaries are further reduced, conditions in our hospitals deteriorate etc. what we will attract will be the bottom of the barrel, every other countries rejects. This isn’t idle speculation, this is proven fact.

Yep, but the braying mob won’t be happy til docs earn less than someone flipping burgers in McDonalds. Jealousy is a terrible affliction.

I wonder are these same people also demanding that NCHDs get paid for the hours they work or get improved working conditions??

You need to check the cost of going to med school in US. it is very expensive .
These guys here are financed by tax payers in Ireland. There should be a contract if they want to leave Ireland to pay the education cost . A consultant in NHS gets on average around 90k Gbp.
So it still compares very well ….. We should get some more doctors from India and eastern Europe , invest in their English skills seriously , still much better bargain. Many ways to skin a cat

Are you really comparing the medical system in the US with Ireland? (groan)

No there is no comparison of the two medical systems. I urge you to read what I wrote again if you think there is.

“Hmmmmmmm 5/6 years to become a consultant in the US with average $300,000 salary at 30% tax or 8-15 years in Ireland with no guarantee of consultant position at the end of it and now on a contract of €120,000 at 50%??”

This is the comparison I was talking about – US vs Ireland salary/training requirements. I agree there is no comparison between the two systems, and you cannot just contrast salary/training.

I agree entirely. I wanted to train and work in Ireland but unfortunately it just doesn’t make sense/ is impossible anyway considering the lack of properly run training schemes.

Just like the teachers as long as the incumbents pay remains untouched they are happy to accept a pay cut on behalf of unrepresented new entrants

As Economicopoly says, just another example of the Boomer generation – who by the way did the best out of the Celtic Tiger – looking after themselves and pulling the ladder up from those coming behind them. It’s not the boomer generation who are commuting from godforsaken commuter towns, paying exorbitant creche fees and struggling with mortgages on shoebox apartments they’ll never get rid of.

Ironic that the trades unions and the consultants should be as one in their shafting of the younger generation.

Yes, another example of the gilded few protecting their position while our government continues to display moral cowardice. Not sure this is even legally acceptable.

I completely agree. This is generally unfair. I’m in a similar profession that has seen a 30% cut in salary over 2/3 years for entry grade. Which means in the space of a couple of years, I’m doing the exact same job (roles & responsibilities) with the exact same qualifications, for significantly less than my colleagues. Those in higher positions have been largely untouched. I’m not against cuts but they really should be equitable.

Holding negotiations without addressing the consultants gross pay is a tragedy. Means that gov has accepted the terrible deal done by Mary Harney. This is one of the major scandals in Ireland today.

He is far from cracking the whip. He’s chosen the easy path of avoiding the problem, while turning the screws on the younger generation.

Compare quite well in terms of salary actually.
In terms of quality of life, not so good. Hence the need for a good salary. There is already a host of doctors leaving these shores for Oz, UK, Canada, etc., and the pay reduction isn’t going to reduce those numbers departing these shores.
You can expect to see some short-staffed hospitals in the future, unless working conditions vastly improve.

Exactly, a family member is a consultant who is paid very well but taxed at around 50% of earnings. She could easily head to the US and earn twice the salary and only get taxed 30%.

She won’t but I suspect some will. She spent 16 years training for what she does and the State paid for most of it so while it is necessary that salaries are reduced it is also important that the government doesn’t incentivise a brain drain.

All that said my sis wont be affected by the 30% pay cut- this is a carbon copy of what the teachers unions did- cut those yet to enter the service so the inflated salaries of those already on the profession remain untouched.

It isn’t fair and it isn’t equitable and if I were a new consultant who could command double the Irish wage I’d be looking elsewhere.

Ah but the thing is that most consultants in Ireland have already been practicing their field for 20 years by the time a position opens up.
What will now start happening is that you will have the consultant’s registrar earning more than them, which leads to a host of other problems.

By definition a consultant is an expert in their chosen field; what do you think they spend their time as junior doctors working towards?

It means any new consultants will have to survive on 2 grand a week. Those already holding a post as consultant will not see a reduction in their salary.

Your hours are as long and you work a hard? Unless you’re also a medic, that’s absolute nonsense. Unadulterated, grade A nonsense.

Consultants put in innumerable 24-72 hour SHIFTS during their training.Toget the job they routinely worked continuously without sleep for longer than most people work in a whole week.

One last reply. I see this often with provision of services over goods.

It is a misconception to say ‘I am paying this person for 30 minutes work/an hours work/a quick look’.

No. You are paying them for their education, knowledge, staff, and experience. You can apply a price to each and every one of these things.

How much does a medical degree costs in man teaching hours, technology, cadavers, books, non-working years for the student, low paid NCHD and intern years?

“your work is crucial in your industry” That could mean you have to have the burger buns ready in a fast food restaurant.

Eoghan..now try doing that shift in Force 8 on the north Atlantic, with physical labour included..and you’ll realise why medical staff greet more fishermen being choppered in for surgery than consultant trainees damaged in the line of labour.

Eoghan, you’re obviously a “medic”. Unfortunately part of the problem. You notice that “medics” haven’t reformed this system yet? That’s because they know it creates a pretty good barrier to entry, and further protects the gilded position of consultants. The entire medical system in this country is a disgrace.

Eoghan, and that’s exactly the point. Pay all consultants less – it’s more than other in Eu get anyway – so that you can hire more of them and they are not overworked and patients are seen faster.

Please enlighten us as to how often a trawlerman is bleeped to theatre to save someone’s life.

Consultants get paid a lot more than other people because they work harder, and train harder, for longer, with worse conditions, doing a more important job. Simple as.

yes, eoghan…tell it to the miners ..you obviously have no horse in the race

Sorry Eoghan. Not true. They get paid more (by the State) because their lobby groups are more effective than others. Let’s have a competitive EU-wide market please.

I’m not a doctor Grainne sorry. Was just defending their position.

Not everyone has to be part of a special interest, some of us just hate to see stupid decisions and inequitable stuff like this lauded as ‘tough’!

They may well have sacrificed the pay of new Consultants but you can see how foolish that idea or concession was when the Croke Park Agreement comes to an end. Methinks the present Consultant will only have preserved the status quo until then at best!

Consultants have already had their pay slashed, and are already working more hours, with more flexible arrangements.

The soundbites from the HSE have skillfully created a mythical scenario in which consultants spend all day golfing or counting their money while burning the poor to hear mansions. This is not the case at all – all healthcare staff have been targeted for cuts already, and consultants are no different.

Or commenting on the journal (whoops)