I have to agree. There is a difference between Public service and civil service. I work in the fire and ambulance service and I cannot remember the last time I was off sick, certified or otherwise. If we need a day off, we swap with someone on a different shift. The service is hugely undermanned at the moment. I can tell you that I don’t receive any of those allowances either

It’s not meant to be useful, Its meant to paint the worst picture possible. Like every other related table you’ll see in the media in the run up to the budget.

I have to agree here and I am living in multinational land…ie balls to the wall stuff…but there is an overall attack on the less well off WORKERS , it’s a shame we cannot unite with a strategic reply to the government and those civil servants really pulling the strings.nI accept that lower level workers in the Pub sec have fought hard over the years for any additional benefits, and good luck to them….but spare a thought for the lower worker in the private sector who also struggle….so guys I hope lessons have been learnt by getting sucked into false promises at election time and don’t get caught again. I don’t have the answers to the problems , all I want is fairness in the country I love….

mTurner – thanks for taking the time to reply. It’s great to hear from someone with first hand knowledge of both public and private sector work.

I’m sure that there are absolutely great workers in the public sector. A friend of mine (radiologist in the employ of the HSE) often works late and I’m certain that he does good work (solely based off the kind of guy he was in education… driven), so I know that not all public sector workers are slackers. However I get the feeling that the system is designed to create the kind of top-heaviness that you describe.
Seniority and a sense of entitlement must be stamped out of the system in order for us to be able to recognise and reward the really dedicated members of our Public Services.

Just a quick point mturner, given the article. There is no such thing as a sick leave ‘allowance’ in the public service. There are figures, as with any organisation, which if breached will incur various type of penalties or debarrments from promotion et.c but to somehow call this an ‘allowance’ is woefully and purposefully misleading. An individual can absent themself when they are not really sick, same as any job, but this says more about the individual than the organisation they are defrauding.

The figures were released following a paliamentary question from a Fine Gael TD. A conspiracy theorist might reaonably conclude a Government plant….maybe….perhaps…..would they?

Thanks Ben.

Surely information like this is public anyway. If a FG TD wanted to know the sick leave bill, they could look it up. No need to ask about it in the Dáil.

I may be wrong. Can any journalists here confirm how this information would normally be requested?

Well it certainly won’t be public servants who will suffer from the budget that is 6 MONTHS AWAY.

Hi all, just to confirm that these figures have been released in response to written Dáil questions from FG’s Simon Harris. For full details, anyone interested can follow the links for each Dept at the bottom of the story…

Hardly a week goes by that we don’t see an article in the media about the “terrible abuses of sick leave in the Public Service”, do some abuse it? Yes, I’m sure they do, as they do in the private sector, please don’t fool yourselves. As I work in the Health Service I can only comment about that and assure you that nobody is foolish enough to frivolously waste their 7 days uncertified sick leave as everyone knows they’re going to need them at some time. Nobody would waste these days on a cold, it’d have to be some cold for that.
I heard an article on the radio yesterday describing how easy it is for people to walk into their GP and just get a cert. Lets be clear here. We’ve already taken a 20% cut in wages so, for most people at least, the GP’s fee of €50 is a serious whammy and one to be avoided at all costs. There is nothing to be gained. If my GP is anything to go by he would never give me a cert on a whim, far from it, and I have a chronic lung disease.
While sick leave is obviously high in the Public Service nobody has bothered to ask why, instead the government has had the media shove this into the faces of the populace week after week, we can only assume to stir up emotion about the subject so that they can then cut the sick leave without any outcry. We can wait and see, but if this is the case it means the government have used the media to do this. Did they know?

@brian- get out of here with your reasoned and logical post. Hysterical, reactionary posting only, please.

Thanks Michael.

@Brian Walsh – No doubt the government want to cut the cost of sick leave. Without a doubt. It costs our taxpayers money. It costs me money that could go other more useful areas.

Look at the data… certain departments have sick leave rates nearly 3 times that of the private sector, and the lowest public sector rate (I presume this is why the 3.5% figure is quoted) is about 50% higher.
That doesn’t necessarily mean that the sick leave rules need to change, but it is significant, and as something that we pay for, we need to know why that is happening. If there is a culture of acceptance of sick-days because an employee was out on the lash, or was just feeling down then that is not acceptable.

Calling into question the motives behind the releasing of the figures does not negate the information that these facts provide us with.

@ Dennis Laffey I have no doubt the government want to cut the cost of sick leave, any large organisation would wish to cut their costs and with regard to the Public Service our government are no exception. However we have to accept that sick leave exists, in the Public Service and the Private sector. Are there abuses? Without doubt, I worked in the Private Sector and I sure as Hell witnessed plenty of abuse there, actually more than I have seen in almost twenty years in the Public Service. It was in the Private Sector where I witnessed an acceptance of alcohol abuse, I have seen it once in the PS, it was identified, the person in question offered every assistance but ultimately they were sacked.
I don’t know where people get the idea that there’s a “culture of acceptance of sick-days because an employee was out on the lash” within the PS but, from what I’ve seen this is definitely not the case for a number of reasons. First, neither myself or anyone else are going to constantly “cover” for someone else. Not gonna happen. Second, the Line Managers would pick up on it in a heart beat, as I mentioned before after every days sick leave you must have a meeting with your Line Manager, who will notice you are absent on Mondays. They’re not stupid.
I know in the Health Service sick leave is there for a reason, for those who are genuinely sick and we do not waste this as we know we’ll need it. If you were in hospital you wouldn’t be happy to have staff around you coughing and spluttering so sick leave is for the patients benefit as much as the staff member. I’ve seen infections spread through a ward in hours so if it can be avoided surely it should be?
As Joseph McGranaghan pointed out below the PS has about 300,000 staff, with an estimated 181,665 sick days in 2011 that works out at an average of less than 2 days per person. There’s several ways to interpret data, I know the way it works from the Health Service perspective and I agree some of it seems odd but I’d be willing to listen to someone else from those Departments give their perspective.

That’s the same for every employee in the private sector

Some private sector companies reduce pay after 3 months off sick – what you’re suggesting isn’t another side to the story, it’s just reality.

Private sector is better set up for abuse of sick leave, over 3 days off and a sick note is needed, over a certain amount of sick days taken in a period and the company can request you see a doctor and managers have discretion to request sick note if they suspect you are abusing the system for less then 3 days off sick. This works and in 2011 the average number of sick days taken for private sector workers was 6 compared to 11 for the public sector. That said the unions would kick up a holy fuss if the same sick leave set was hinted at being implemented for the public sector. The system is being abused to high heaven in the public sector for the simple fact that the set up allows them to get away with doing it.

@jason – its the same system in the majority of the public sector too. In fact if you are off for any sick period in the public sector you have to have a meeting with your manager to explain your illness face to face and can be subject to disciplinary measures if needs be for continued abuse of sick leave.

Doesn’t stop people taking Friday, Monday and Tuesday off without any questions, and this can be done 5 times a year, on top of their few weeks off paid holidays.

@derek – 15 days sick leave? That is not how it works at all.

Sorry, that was meant to be 3 times, (had 5 on the brain here relating to work) and also I got called away here and didn’t reread what I had started it should have just been Friday and Monday, not Tuesday also. Apologies for the error. 7 is correct, 10 days came to mind first which was also in error. :/

@derek – thanks for clearing that up. I’ve already outlined the rules around what is supposed to happen but what actually happens on the ground will vary from place to place, we have to be real and area managers micro-managing their managers is just more form filling. You get 7 days sick over 12 months. I’ve not taken one in 2 or 3 years now. Some people take the mick and should be repremanded. Problem is though, even if you were to sack them you won’t get a body to replace them anyway so you’re worse off.

Derek, in the civil service if you take Friday, Monday and Tuesday off together, the Saturday and Sunday are also counted as sick days, so if you do that 3 times a year, thats 15 days sick leave.

Oh and you’ll also require a medical cert for each of those absences as they are longer than 2 days a piece and therefor outside the remit of uncertified sick leave.

Just thought I’d clear that up for you.

Scarlet fever – check. Chicken Pox – Check Swine Flu – check. Passed them onto the kids – double check. Yes, had to pay the doctor for each occurrence – check. There is a reason why the public service looks after staff who are Ill same as health services. It’s because we’re exposed to things that are catching fairly intensively. FFS

I think this is just the civil service not the public service.

So we are only talking about the persons working in actual Departments not people in hospitals or cops or soldiers etc.

If it were to include civil & public servants the figure would be much much higer.

In fairness, Derrick is right. Some people take total advantage, I certainly don’t, I’ve had 1sick day in 12 years front line public service (not civil/desk service, I actually work!). But, people in the private sector pull the piss just as much. It’s human nature for many people to take advantage of “the system”, we see that with people screwing the welfare system just as much!

^^^
On the public sector if you’re sick on a Friday it counts as 3 days (Friday, sat and Sunday) which is why the figure looks so high in comparison. Also a lot of public sector (nurses and teachers mostly) come into contact with sickness an awful lot more than private sector workers so naturally they get sick more.

And for the record I do not work in the public sector.

This survey does not include HSE employees, our friends in blue or the army.

That’s because it’s the Civil Service record and not the Public Service

To make that clearer that would be 3 people out sick, not on holiday but sick every day of a 50 person workforce!

Yet how is this considered acceptable in the PS? 181,665days, 7 un-certed sick days allowed, that’s 25,952 PS workers taking 7 sick days per year. There seems to be a bit more than “a little abuse ” going on here.
What ever the Govt. plan on doing in the next budget, it certainly is an area that needs to be looked at and restructured to cut these numbers down.

Out of nearly 300,000 workers that is also less than a day per person per year, hardly a shocking statistic!!

I’m glad you find it hilarious though you don’t actually appear to know what a troll is, or what grammar and proper spelling is either. “yereselves”? Really?and I’ll try to ignore the text-speak ( or should that be txtspk?) anyway, you came here with a friend of a friend story to which you still have not provided any detail. Lol, as you might say. I provided more detail on your friends situation in fact. Anyway, I hope you leaving results are good and you get the course you want.

Our pay has already been cut and taxed hugely. We’ve had years of inflation now making the cuts worse. It’s high time we had a pay increase.

Irish Renters – Obvious Troll is Obvious.

For people who are new here i will translate Irish Renters post above: ‘our troll has already been trolled and disingenuous lately. We’ve had years of trolling now making the fake statement worse. It’s high time I got a life. ‘ there, fixed.

Irish Renters,

The entitlement mentality to a ‘pay increase’ shows the ruthless thugs that populate the civil service. I’m told that the lights on the Titanic shone close to the end too.

@irish renters, a pay increase? Are you serious??? For what? I for one am looking forward to the hammering public servants will deservedly get come the budget. I have 4 friends in the ps and they take the absolute piss out of what a handy, laid back number it is.

So im a ruthless thug for starting a job and having my contract ripped up and the law changed to allow this. My living costs have increased every year whilst my net wages have reduced dramatically. Im looking after myself as is to be expected. I feel I was scammed into taking this job when I had lots of options in the private sector. None of my peers have had pay cuts like Ive had. All the top younger people are leaving the ps and I will probably join them.

Are people angrily reacting to Irish renters obvious troll comment a bit stupid or just…… I don’t know, they have to be stupid.

You didn’t say anything about “sick allowances”.

Heres what you posted verbatim:

“I got 21 days annual leave with an sick allowance of 9 days uncertified and 15 days certified. If I was permanent, I could have taken months.”

That person does not work in the public sector. They just like to make negative, controversial or wind-up statements because they are not very happy with how their life has gone or is going.

For mel’s idea on what public sector reform would look like, please see the following link.

http://negroartist.com/SLAVE%20SALES%20AND%20BRUTALITY/images/Harper’s%20Weekly%20Nov_%2028,%201868%20vol_12,%20p_%20753_jpg.jpg

How often does your ‘friend’ get paid? Every 2 weeks id say. How long is this break? 30 mins isn’t it? So your friend, who is in the minority, gets off 15mins of work per week. Think of all the productivity your friend could engage in! Is he a surgeon?

Are you suggesting Cian is lying about knowing a “friend” in the public sector Scarr????

15 mins a week OR 13 hours a year?

@alex- I’ve no reason to believe him. Let’s be straight here, what Cian is talking about is a bank 30 minute window that was negotiated eons ago in order for your cheque to be cashed. Years ago most places went to a electronic transfer fortnightly system, the bank perk remained as it was in place for certain staff from year dot. I am technically entitled to it but don’t bother taking it. The 9 not 13 hours per year is a dumb way to phrase it as that is not how people work and is merely a bean counting exercise but you already knew that didn’t you?

yes, you don’t have any reason not to believe alright but yet you used inverted commas? why was that Scarr?

yes, i know how, why and when the 30 minutes banking window was introduced into areas of the public sector but thank you for letting us know.

saying 9 hours a year is as dumb as saying 15 mins a week…but you already knew that didn’t you?

@alex – im going to assume a modicum of common sense and logic in that what you can achieve in 15 minutes a week does not have the same inference as stating 9 hours per year. You do know this alex, I know you do.

i just did exactly what you did In your response to Cian.

an extra break every thursday to cash a non existent pay cheque = 15mins of work per week = 9 hours a year

Childish and immature comment -

childish AND immature???

Wow. Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? You have a very high opinion of yourself don’t you?

To be honest I’m still a little unclear as to what you speak of. There was some Mumbo jumbo about self-servants at the start then you went into what an easy and willing person to exploit you are and you finished up with some waffle….that about right?

So you don’t eat at all during the day then? You must be a useless distracted lump by 4 or 5 then!!

Yet again, I couldn’t see you working in a dole office, or out inspecting claims- or collecting taxes. Don’t see these as easy jobs. Interesting why social welfare has most sick leave – most assaults/threats on staff

Lunch break every day!!! Stop the presses! This girls got the inside track. Maybe in the piece that you write for the sindo you could include some more baseless, local arrangement, legacy bullshit that you heard off of a friends friend, because that’s bound to be representative of the hundreds of thousands of dedicated workers in the PS. Get a life.

Bank time is gone, lunch breaks are a legal requirement, I’ve never done a job public or private where I haven’t had a tea break, flexi time funnily enough is hardly a headline as you have to actually work the hours to take them meaning that your employer oddly enough doesn’t lose out because you work the same amount of hours but hell why should we let the truth get in the way of your embittered fact free rant

Gotta agree with you Scarr, time for some hysterical, reactionary posting. The law allows everyone breaks, or is there a suggestion that the PS should be different. If I or anyone else called in on a Monday to say I was taking an annual leave day there’d be Hell to pay. Annual Leave has to be booked for the entire year in January and approved by the Line Manager.
Where do people get these ideas? Its always “I heard” or “someone told me”, they always have it on the best authority, except from the actual people who would bloody know and when those who would know the truth tell them what happens? They refuse to believe it and Croke Park is brought up. But if they have to dial 999 they expect a fireman/garda/ambulance at their door within minutes, these are the people who when their child is sick at 3 am and in A&E being well looked after by the very people they just ridiculed, they wouldn’t think of mentioning Croke Park then.

When you get a job Cian you get annual leave entitlements. You might find out about those one day. You make me despair for the critical thinking capabilities of our young people, but I don’t blame you, it’s the system. Good luck with the literacy.

Eh, Denise, its public servants that are employed to take care of the sick, elderly and special needs in this country. When you’re in a post-natal ward after giving birth, do you want a nurse with a viral infection handling your newborn, or would you rather she be at home recovering?

Your pomposity and self righteousness is phenomenal.