Throw one scallion into the mix and batch-loaf toasted only on one side and you’re set for June :-)

Dont forget to pack some Tayto and Barrys tea, it could be a long ride.

Gary Its very clear If we didnt bail out the banks we wouldnt need to borrow any money. I cant put it an simpler than that.

Unfortunately for you Frank the figure tell a different story. But I’m sure your opinion means more than the actual numbers.

@ Gary… interesting. When ones argument fails.. get down to personal remarks (always works..?)

Personal remarks? You’ve lost me.

Hey Paul, we tried FF and we saw where that got us … You can keep puffing on that cigar as long as ye want, FF will never see power again in this country. Time to give us the ghost and disband.

Mary cop on Sinn Fein dont promise what they cant deliever, but they wont let some unelected body from europe tell us what to do. Kenny and Gilmore you must know by now they are weak leaders.

You don’t think sinn feins policy to introduce a third rate of tax on high earners is a sound eonomic policy?

In their defence, their economic policies are up on their website.

They are pure fantasy but they are there.

@Too Trueleft, whether its sound economic policy or not (and the debate is open on that) its populism of the highest order from SF as they know that it will not effect 99%+ of their vote demographics

good man Paddy, you said it. there saying no to things in the republic, which they have no problem with happening in northern ireland, we’re they’re part of the govt themselves.

@ Keith
Why arnt FG up north!?

@ Connor.You do realise that when you say “its populism of the highest order from SF as they know that it will not effect 99%+ of their vote demographics” what you are in effect saying is that their policies will benefit the vast majority.

Not think after fine gael continuing the policies, despite the crash, that is continuing to make the 1% even wealthier, that some policies taking the pressure off the 99% might be a bit overdue?

That’s what Gilmore has being doing for years. Easier to criticise than implement.

@Too Trueleft, there is a considerable difference between 99% of SF voters or potential voter pool and 99% of the population. SF’s vote tends to come from the C2DE demographic, many of whom would not be impacted by the current marginal rate of 41% let alone a third rate at 48-50%.

again I’m not saying a third rate is a good or bad thing but merely the fact that SF know it makes good populist sound bites with out risking marginalizing their existing voter base

Actually conor, thanks for pointing that out for us, you not saying whether its a good or bad thing. Do you think a third rate of tax on higher earners would be a good or bad thing?

@Too TrueLeft, initial reaction would be against, most people are currently paying a marginal rate of 52% (41% income tax, 7% USC and 4% PRSI) on earnings over approx. 35K. assuming a third date of 48 – 50% that would be marginal rate of 59 – 61%.

it would really depend on what the threshold for the rate was, how much it would generate and what the consequences were (tax exiles, ability to retain and attract key talent, etc)

Sorry conor but you figures don’t add up. You assume a marginal rate of 59 – 61% but fail to give a figure for where the third rate cuts in, therefore you have no base figure to extrapolate your claimed rate from. In other words, your pulling fugures out of thin air,

Nobodys going to the poorhouse of we introduce a third rate of tax for higher earners. The revenue it will bring in, however, might just allow us to keep some people out of it.

the level that the rate kicks in at has no bearing on what the marginal rate will be. if its 50,100 or 150K then it is still a marginal rate of 59 – 61%.

the rate range i suggested is based on the SF proposed 48% as a base, add to that USC & PRSI and you reach 59%. others have suggested 50% which by the same maths would give a marginal rate of 61%.

So, by your contention, if the new rate kicks in at, say 75,000, your marginal rate suddenly jumps to 59-61% whether you’re earning €75,001 or €750,000,001 despite the first figure (75,000) mening almost all of your tax is at a lower rate and the higher figure (€750,000,001 ) means almost all of your tax is paid at the new higher rate??

Come on conor

Too Trueleft, it is a ridiculous policy. High Earners are the most mobile.. It will be bye bye to them and their capital the day Sinn Fein get into power. You can all have your workers paradise then, albeit with no jobs.

That’s a great idea vote the same corrupt party in that ruined the country! Not a fan of independents I take it!

Eamonn, you’ve mede it quite clear here on many occasions that you would vote for the party of haughey and aherne, who have got us into this mess by buying elections via unsustainable transactional taxation.

Yay you!

I’m assuming that you have actually read their alternate budget for 2012 so Adam?

It only goes to show how bad the mainstream parties are when Mary Lou and her gang are deemed the main opposition! Bertie Ahern ruined a great country, and I’m seriously wondering if it can ever recover!!

I have.. The only things missing were the crayon drawings…

We’ve survived famine, independence, civil war, economic war, the 1980s and Jedward!

I think we’ll make it through this one!

David Higgins

You should be ashamed of yourself and go back to school and learn your IRISH history. We most certainly did not survive a famine as there was no famine. What the Irish people suffered through in the 1840’s was ethnic cleansing at its most evil. You really do fall for propaganda dont you.

Sinn Fein, the party which opposes everything and proposes nothing.

Keith, if you have an issue with sinn fein, please discuss it at face value. Don’t misrepresent them.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies

To those 16 red thumbers I suggest that you also go and learn your history too. Ireland had bumper crop yields and exports in the 1840s of maize, oats and wheat . The potato was the only crop that failed because of blight.

David Higgins, your party won’t survive the next election!

Hear hear Caroline. I will never vote FG ever again. I like many many others have been let down by them!

One of the definitions of famine is “extreme hunger, starvation”. I think we had that, Ann.

Terry, perhaps Ann is referring to the fact that due to extremee rationing of other crops ehich were in abundance, and the over reliance on a failed crop (spuds) to feed the locals the famine was, in a sense, engineered.
Same way the Holodomor was engineered (pretty much the exact same story except in the Ukraine and ending the lives of 11 million).

@ann – there was a famine. Badly handled by the authorities at the time, but there was a famine. No matter which way you look at it, not coming to the aid of the starving is not the same as ethnic cleansing. Bit of perspective goes a long way, and it helps with credibility.

Ann Reddin and Shanti Om are dead right. I’ll post the first definition of a famine. “1.extreme and general scarcity of food, as in a country or a large geographical area.”

This was not the case in Ireland at the time of our “famine”. Food was plentiful but exported to Britain while Irish people starved to death. We received more aid from a tribe of native Americans than we did from queen Victoria.

Newspapers in Britain at the time depicted us as half human/half animal. We were shown to be savages. It was indeed an attempt at genocide. Evictions were rife and entering a Work house in Ireland at the time meant you were separated from spouse and children. If you want further information look it up online.

The truth isn’t always palpable to a former colonised country. But the Truth remains the Truth!

Have to disagree I’m afraid.

If famine is “an extreme and general scarcity of food”, this did apply to Ireland. Crops were grown and exported, so there was not enough food in the country available to the population. Your definition doesn’t insist that the lack of food came from crop failure or other “natural” causes, removal of food from the country led to a scarcity of food. Just look at the more recent African famines, the fact that they were mostly caused by tinpot dictators redirecting resources and squandering aid does not change the fact that they were and are famines.

The famine wasn’t engineered. It had no benefit for the British empire. They were happily exploiting Ireland’s resources, they had nothing to gain from genocide or ethnic cleansing, why destroy a cheap work-force? The Irish famine was intensified by mismanagement, ignorance and a lack of respect for the local population, and not by planned malice. There was no “grand plan”.

I hope it’s clear that I’m in no way apologising for the British Empire, or for Imperialism in general. It was one of the many shameful parts of history. But history needs to be about dispassionately examining what happened in the past, not re-interpeting the past to aid present agendas.

John Conniffe. The potato crop failed all over Europe yet no other country suffered the loss of life we did. I only commented on this as Ann Reddin didn’t seem to be believed. I am not a vengeful person and if there were a famine in Britain now I would be prepared to feel a bit of hunger to help them.

I do feel, however, that we as a nation, are very apologetic regarding our history, no doubt as a result of being colonised and wish to god we would shake those shackles off us. Then we might start to speak up for ourselves in Europe. Angela Merkle has to be told that she is one leader among many in Europe – not supreme leader. With our current mindset that’s not likely to come from apologetic Tory Enda Kenny. It might however come from Sinn Féin. They weren’t prepared to be silent when Republicans were being burnt out of their houses in 26 counties by loyalists or while civil rights marchers were being shot by the British Army.

@Reada – If you’re saying that the vast majority of the devastation and suffering during the famine was caused by the decision and actions of the British Empire, then I agree totally. But it was a famine. Natural causes such as the potato blight are not the only causes of a famine. There was not enough food available to the people, people starved on a massive scale. That’s a famine.

It is not credible to equate the famine with genocide, ethic cleansing or the holocaust. I’m not saying the famine wasn’t an tragedy and the British Empire didn’t treat the Irish people woefully badly. It was and they did. But the comparison above is sloppy and doesn’t hold water. The British Empire focused on production, and Ireland was a good producer for them. They weren’t so brainless as to think wiping out their work force would be a good thing.

As for Merkel, she may be seen as an Iron Lady in Ireland, but she’s losing support in Germany, so chances are she may be gone sooner or later. This mightn’t be as good as it sounds. One of the main reasons she’s loosing support is that German voters believe that she is far too soft when it comes to the EU and Eurozone crisis. Let that sink in for a minute…

Well it was the exact same story as the Holodomor and there are moves to have the Holodomor recognised as a genocide.
http://www.holodomor.org.uk/
The Russians wanted the Ukranians food, they took their abundant harvests and allowed the Ukranians barely enough to survive on, if even that. 11 MILLION Ukranians died, despite the fact that they had bumper harvests. Many were executed but the overwhelming majority simply starved.
We produced plenty of food, yet our people were starving over the failure of ONE crop. Surely the answer was quite simple? Increase rations of other foods?
We do have to consider that perhaps they just wanted less Irish people. They may not have wanted to kill us all or exterminate us, they might have just wanted to reduce the numbers, put us “on a diet”?
Just because they aren’t screaming for a group or nations extermination doesn’t mean that they don’t wish to get rid of a chunk of them..

John. I know you from previous comments on Journal and I know you are a fair man but in this instance I disagree with you. The Irish were viewed as less than human. We were the only European peasants that had a growing population due to our nutritious diet of potatoes where other peasants ate mainly bread. As a result we were very fertile and the British viewed our population explosion as a problem. Exporting food out of Ireland while the Irish were starving was indeed a means of reducing the population. That is genocide. Ugly but true.

Sinn Fein- a “blow” to sensible economics everywhere

@ TERRY TURNER & JOHN CONNIFFE.

So a colonising army makes it illegal to speak your own language, practicing your religion, education for the natives, and then choses to let them starve, is not ethnic cleansing. Really people go back and learn your history. Apologists of the highest order. Shame on you for believing everything your told.

The insertion of the “Gregory clause” in the Poor Law Amendment Act (1847) meant that farmers who owned a quarter acre or more could not recieve relief, were left with 2 options – give up their land or starve. They gave up their land and were forced to either emigrate or die of stavation at the side of the road.

Please please people, learn your history. Doing so might make you realise that we fought a long hard battle to win our freedom and this is why remaining our own little country is so important. Take this chance to educate yourself before May 31st.

jOHN

You also need to research the Corn Laws while you are at it. You really dont know what you are talking about.

Why on earth does the fact that there was a famine 150 years ago mean that it’s “so important” that we remain our own little country? Voting no in this treaty has nothing to do with EU/Irish sovereignty. People should vote on the treaty itself, not on what they think (rather ignorantly) the treaty represents..

John

“But history needs to be about dispassionately examining what happened in the past, not re-interpeting the past to aid present agendas”.

I have a degree in History and I am not using it to further any agenda. Two books I suggest you read if you really want to educate yourself in Irish history

Ireland Before the Famine 1798 – 1848 by Gearoid O Tuathaigh

Ireland Since the Famine by F. S. L. Lyons (14 Mar 1985)

Or check out this link, it wont take anymore than 10 minutes to read it.
http://www.wolfetonesofficialsite.com/famine.htm

@ Aindriú Ó Cionnaith

My response to David Higgins was merely to pull him up on the facts that he is wrong when he says we survived a “famine”. Given your age I would assume that this is something you would have learned quite recently. I did not in anyway make or form suggest that we should vote No because the of what happened during the 1840s.

Once again just for your benefit I will say that I am voting NO because I do not believe that any person or institution should be above and beyond the law!!

As I stated we fought a long hard battle to win our freedom and beome our OWN sovereign nation. And I for one do not believe that we should be allowing ourselves to be dictated to by the ESM / Merkel.

Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

I’m arguing that, while the British Empire made decisions that were brutal, cruel and destructive to the Irish people, these decisions were not driven by the deliberate intent to wipe out the Irish, but were driven by greed and industry over basic human rights. It is an opinion that the famine was an act of genocide. It is not an opinion that I hold, but I can understand the logic of holding this opinion. It is not fact that the famine was deliberate and intentional, so it is not a fact that it was genocide.

A better comparision would be that the famine was similar to the destruction of New Orleans, albeit on a far larger scale. The death toll can be placed firmly at the feat of the arrogance, selfishness and stupidity of the authorities of the time, but we cannot say for sure that the authorities were aiming to wipe out the people.

As it is very clear from this and previous posts, I am obviously not an apologist for the the former British Empire, or of imperialism in general. Sloppy aim, there.

This will come down to opinions, and I’m happy to say that we can disagree, let’s not make a cat fight out of it.

I am well aware of the corn laws.

I accept that this is your opinion and of course you are entitled to it and to voice it, but I think that you will find not 1 single history academic either here or in Britain that would agree with you.

If we didnt bail out the banks we would have pleny of money its a no brainer.

39 billion should be enough to run a country the size of Ireland.

Frank. Most of the money we’ve borrowed didn’t go to any bank, we used if for the day to day running of the country. That is a fact.

censored. Perhaps you’re right, however taking large sums of money quickly out of the economy could make things very nasty indeed. And could get us caught in a downward spiral.

So Gary – you agree that handing the ESM 1.6 billion euors in a couple of weeks is a bad idea?

Ann I think that we borrowed money, the majority of which was for our day to day overspending and we will have to pay the piper on that. I never cease to be fascinated people are calling for us not to pay our debts. Our neighbours borrowed money and gave it to us at the rate they borrowed it at, a way lower rate than we could get ourselves. Yet many people think it’s perfectly okay to stuff them with this debt, as long as we can claim it’s not our debt (even though it clearly is). Or we can claim it was to pay off German banks (even though it wasn’t).

Gary, you need to read this article.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html#.
We are running a budget deficit but the majority of the money we were forced to borrow was poured into the banks.

Gary you know quite well that it is looking more and more likely that Portugal and Spain are going to be needing bailouts followed swiftly by Italy. If that happens we will have to lodge 11 billion euros into the ESM…..where are we getting this 11 billion euros from? And of course why would they stop at asking us for capital stock of 11 billion when they can increase it to 20 billion euros if they feel like it. I will not be responsible for future generations of Irish citizens being shackled to any entity or group of people who are beyond the law.

Sorry gary, I think ann was referring to the billions paid this year to unsecured unguaranteed bondholders that we had no obligation to pay. Can you clarify if you disagree with fine gael paying this money.

Caroline. Don’t have time to read this fully right now but can’t seem to see where it says “the majority of the money we were forced to borrow was poured into the banks”. Maybe you can help me out?

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/deficit-and-banks.html
“If we do a simple counterfactual and magic away the €62.5 billion we have pumped into the banks, the projected deficit for 2012 would fall from €13.6 billion to €12.8 billion or 8.0% of GDP. Eliminating the effect of the bank payments would knock 5% off the deficit; 95% of next year’s deficit is not related to the bank payments.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0323/1224313766388.html
“Three claims are frequently made:
* Most public debt is a result of taking on banking debt;
* The economic and budgetary outlook would be transformed if banking debt could be offloaded;
* A bailout would not have been needed had it not been for socialised banking debt.

These claims are, respectively, plain wrong, wrong and debatable.”

Gary, one quote you missed from the IT article you linked to
“THE BURDEN of bailing out banks and their bondholders on every man, woman and child in this State will be among the highest, if not the highest, of any financial failure in history on a per capita basis”

Are the Irish people been conned!
Vincent Browne blogs ahead of the show.

Fine Gael and Labour promised in the last election campaign – just over a year ago –that they would seek a write-down of the bank debt that had been inflicted on the Irish people.

They didn’t quite put it that way but that is what was understood and that is what they wanted people to understand.

Enda Kenny’s party said:

“Fine Gael believes that the IMF/EU bailout deal has not and will not restore investor confidence in our country and must therefore be renegotiated to reduce the interest rate and to ensure a fairer sharing of the cost of fixing Ireland ’s broken banks.”

And :

“Fine Gael in government will force certain classes of bondholders to share in the cost of recapitalising troubled financial institutions. This will be done unilaterally for the most junior bondholders (owners of preference shares, subordinated debt and similar instruments) but could be extended – as part of a European wide framework – for senior debt, focusing on insolvent institutions like Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide that have no systemic importance”.

Eamon Gilmore’s party said:

“Labour believes that bank bondholders should share in bank losses” and “Labour will seek to ensure that burden sharing with bondholders is part of a renegotiated (EU/IMF) deal”.

They both will try to wriggle out of these promises, but had either or both of them said before the last election: “We don’t even bother seeking a write down, let alone a write off of the bank debt which has nothing to do with the Irish people. All we will do is seek a reduction on the interest rate on the debt that has been inflicted on the Irish people and seek a deferral on the payments,” what do you think would have happened in the election?

Yes, it is likely there would have been a Fine Gael/Labour government but with nothing like the majority it enjoyed. The fact is that the Irish people were conned and this jubilation over the deal on the promissory notes is just an exacerbation of the injury that has been done.

No doubt the Fine Gael Árd Fheis at the weekend will be in ecstasies over the promissory note deal but there will be some anguish over the hash the government and Fine Gael minister Phil Hogan made of the household charge.

This fiasco may have lasting consequences. If, as seems likely, less than half of those required to sign up and pay do so, the chances of the government being able to introduce a property tax next year and make it stick will be greatly compromised. And that will be a major problem with the Troika and with the fiscal deficit.

Caroline I didn’t suggest otherwise and it’s a fact so why would I. I didn’t support the blanket guarantee of the banks but then I didn’t vote for Fianna Fail either. However unless someone has a time machine that milk is long spilt.
So as I was asking where does he say “the majority of the money we were forced to borrow was poured into the banks”?

Side step Gary missing the facts as usual!!

Gary, 50 billion of the bailout was immediately ear marked for the banking sector. Even the British press widely reported that. We are stuck paying that back. Please dont fall for the informational fudge of defecit / bank debt.

What ‘facts’ would they be Ryan? simple question.

Sorry to break it to you but that’s exactly what most central banks do when they create money, and most banks lend out money based on your ability to pay it back by just crediting your loan account eith electronically created money.

Where did the ECB get all the money it stuffed into the European banks there before christmas? €1Trillion I think it was, was it just lying around in frunkfurt doing nothing? Let me break it to you again, they just created it out of think air, the banks have to pay it back evently. Then the ECB will effectly burn it out of existence to control inflation.

But the reality is in a deflationary economy inflation is not a real concern. A weak euro would suit us here in Ireland as it would make our exports cheap – effects the price of oil though.

Dave. What the hell are you on about? The figures being used are from multiple respected sources. If you want to ignore the figures we may as well go back to hoping for the magic money trees.

Gary, as usual the figures you quote are quite correct but ignore 1 important point,they do not include NAMA. That pushes the burden up by 26% of GDP this year (or 21% of our projected nominal GDP in 2015).

Btw Gary €70.3bn in bank debt is not spilt milk, I don’t need a time machine to tell me that my children and grandchildren will be paying back €100bn in interest.

Gary
You really have lost it …..
You have not got a clue ……
Go and read something educate yourself.

That’s what will happen, its worked in America. It can be problematic, no doubt but the whips and salt approach that the EU has taken so far is not working.

Ah Susie Chester, defaulting to type as usual…. Telling people to “go educate” when everything they say is perfectly educated (Gary) and quotes respectable statistics to back up their points..

All you offer is rhetoric. No rationale. Maybe you would be best served with an education in reality….

Actually TTL

The 1.6 billion I am referring to is the first installment of the 11 billion euro “Capital Stock” that we have to ledge into the ESM bailout fund. This amount has nothing to do with repaying the bond holders. This is “on top” of the bail out money we are currently repaying.

O’Reilly, stabilizing??? They are only stabilizing, because so many are emigrating. But we all know FFg/Labour built the plan for emigration into their program for government. Its the only target they have hot since getting into office. What really strikes me about all the posts i have read on this thread… The very very vast majority of them dont deal with the story. They are attacking SF… Which then poses the follow on question, have the Government supporting commentators on this thread thrown in the towel on the upcoming referenda? Do the government supporting parties not accept and support the will of the French people? Its all about attacking SF now?

Well said Seamus

And stating the obvious says what about Sinn Fein? Are you suggesting it was their hard work and foresight that they’ve never made policy? Just asking…

True Seamus, but nor do their policies of today provide a remedy

So… we choose our government based on who messes up the least rather than who’s got the best ideas? Bit cynical isn’t it?

And what record have we to judge SF by? Maybe the reason their policies haven’t failed in the past is because they’ve never been put into practice in this country. What would happen if we did follow them down the rabbit hole of SF economic policy? Sure it might be some craic anyway, and sure isn’t that what this is all about!

That’s right seams it was FF policy’s that got us into this mess and FG’s policy’s that are making it worse!! Very true in what you say!

And its not their policies that will get us out of where we are today…

it will take some seismic event (even more than we’ve seen to date) to propel SF into government come the next election. right now they are doing well in (arguably meaningless) opinion poll’s due to populist politics and rhetoric as they know they don’t have to back up what they say……

its Labour whom i suspect will take the real beating come the next GE, SF have been aggressively targeting their voter base. the outcome of the next GE could well see a FG/FF and/or some independents as being far far more likely then a government involving SF…

then again a lot can happen quickly……

So you’re not a SF supporter but you love the fact they’re on the up and will probably vote for them next time…

C’mon Ryan, at least I’m honest about who I support :)

I’d honestly love to know how you think SF are eating into FG support Ryan? All the opinion polls since the election have FG in the early to mid thirties, marginally lower than or in some cases matching the General Election. Meanwhile Labour are down significantly and FF are also down on the election slightly as well. Its clear that FF and Labour voters are going to SF, not FG ones.

Also SF currently have 14 seats. I could see them doubling this, perhaps even reaching the mid to late thirties on a truly outstanding day – but it is still very difficult to see how they could cobble together a stable coalition that would reach the magic number of 84 seats. The ULA and various independents would be difficult to negotiate with and FF can be ruled out after the events of the past week it seems.

Ah vote for a party to piss off people on the Internet. Sad comment from a sad man.

I don’t care who’s in gubbermint next election! My satisfaction will be that it’s not Enda :D the lying traitor!!

@ Ryan: Given the consistent support for FG since the election (31-36%) it is far from a foregone conclusion that there will be a change of Taoiseach. Obviously things could change or Kenny might retire, although having led them to being the biggest party at every level in Ireland, I’d imagine Kenny would want to stick around to see FG getting re-elected for the first time ever.

If there is a change who do you think it will be? Michael Martin or Gerry Adams?

@Ryan Allen
Here’s one ex FG supporter that will vote for anyone except FG again!! There are plenty more like me who remember the bold rhetoric of pre election lies!! Yeh I’m still waiting for that change he promised and you are a fool if you think I am alone!! There are many more pissed of voters who feel duped, we’ll see come the next election! Eh we’ll see :) Enda will be out of a job quicker than Sarkosy!!!

You can add me Ryan. Voted FG last time. Never again. I’m just fed up of being lied to.

Also voted FG last time. With a heavy heart at the lack of choices. We need some new options.

People hate Sinn Féin because they can’t be trusted. They are distinctly Machiavellian in their approach to politics and have no qualms about talking absolute nonsense if it gets them more seats next time round. Certainly, they have many noble ideas and ideals, but it’s the way they go about pursuing those ideas and ideals that people don’t like. It is an “ends justify the means” approach and anyone who has any sense of political idealism is necessarily disgusted by their logic.

Eh, does Blueshirts sound familiar? I’m well aware of the history, but let’s not quote it selectively! They all have a few skeletons in the closet, dont they?

I just have trouble understanding why everyone defends a system (FF, FG) that has failed so miserably.

People are afraid of Sinn Fein. A few cosy applecarts might be upset if they ever got into power.

Censored, I am really starting to suspect that this is indeed the case.

@censored: certainly some people are afraid that someone might spoil their gravy-train, but the vast majority of people who distrust Sinn Féin are not bankers or cosy civil servants, they’re normal citizens. We don’t like the deception of misquoted economists, populist pandering and fantastical argument. If SF could update their republicanism and have a bit more integrity they could be an amazing force for change in this country. My bet is they won’t though so they’ll probably never get my vote.

Only for the shinners youd be under the Brit jack boot.

Frank are you seriously trying to claim that the Sinn Fein of 1922 and the Sinn Fein of today are the same party?

We would probably be better off.

Anyone up for a Boston Tea party??

Infact I hav to laugh as the usual party faithfull of other party’s come on to try put s/f down ……… Lads it’s a running joke now at this stage will yiz get a life

The Liffey already looks like tea anyway!

OR perhaps Sinn Feins economic policies are the rubbish they sound.

Yep, just as I thought, my response to Nucky went right over your heads lads.

You were very cryptic Ann.

@ Frank – nope, chances are we wouldn’t be under the jack-boot. The British Empire was obsolete by the end of WWII. They wouldn’t have been able to hang onto Ireland, they would have offloaded it like they did the majority of their other colonies/holdings. I’m not belittling any Irish patriot of the time, but there’s very little substance. What’s your definition if a “jack-boot” by the way?

A Frank,
so you’re saying SF *A*R*E the IRA? most SF supporters claim the opposite

The Empire was “obsolete” by the end of WWII because of deliberate American policy to break up the Empire’s restrictions on trade, and because slave nations like the Irish rose up against it.

Yeah, principled bunch SF…. Tell me has Gerry Adams told Jean McConville’s family the location of her unmarked grave yet? No didn’t think so…..

God forbid !!!!!

I would agree that Gerry and Martin are somewhat toxic and would best move along….

Even with the Mahon tribunals out come FG don’t admit their wrong doings and kick party members out! Corrupt to the core, FG are FF dressed up in drag!

FG = IRA – winning side in Civil War
FF = IRA – losing side
Labour party = Citizens Army + Democratic Left (Official IRA)

Maybe time to have some new political parties based on principles and ideas.

Well Emmet they are obviously not as inspired as whoever it was that came up with the idea of creating an unquestionable and unanswerable financial body which, along with its employees, that is beyond the law!!!!!

They can not do any worse than you lot

I could care less about Sinn Fein or any political party. Well outside of the fear SF would try to actually implement their economic policies.

Jedward would have been better than FG and their cronies!! FF dressed up as FG. Like a pig with lipstick on!

Actually Eamonn, you’re the one who pops up from under his little bridge every now and again to drop FF in a positive light into every thread (and repeatedly getting ridiculed in the process). The very definition of a troll.

If your correct, she will be the first orange woman to be Taoisach.

We already have a first lady taoiseach her name is Enda!!

Ryan, come out of the closet. Stop pretending. Get over your shame. Shout it to the world “I love Sinn Fein”. ’cause you’re fooling no one with your “I’m not a SF supporter, but…” statements. Why are you ashamed?

I would definitely vote for Mary Lou McDonald at least she can talk up for herself unlike Enda Kenny who does nearly everything Merkel ask’s him to do.

Well I’ll give you that one Nucky, orange isnt a good colour for a republican nationalist.

Ann, at last, I feel myself warming to you.

O’Riely,
Cherish the day when FG are out of government, the sooner the better! Anyone elce can take their place I couldn’t care less!

@Frank,
it depends on your definition of lady.

MLM hasn’t a chance. If SF want to capitalise ( I’m sure they’ll hate that word ) on their growing popularity, Adams will have to stand down before the next election. Whether justified or not, too many floating voters won’t give them their trust. There has to be a clear division between the party then and the party now. MLM is seen to be far too cosy with the old guard. Doherty is their best chance of a credible leader so far.

A bit more work and developing and articulating economic policy and getting their members, from top-level to grass-roots supporter, to refrain from personal insults would go a long way also.

You might despise political optics, but they play a big part of garnering votes.

@ Madeline Angela Hind

That is a very NASTY and uncalled for comment. It leads me think that you wouldnt know much about being one yourself.

Martin, Can you list the measures in the treaty dealing with the ‘growth and employment’ you mention for us please?

Rhetoric and populist guff isn’t that what got ffg/labour elected !!

Title 1 article 1

Title 1 article 1 title 4 article 9

Those articles are just aspirational comments Martin. SF could produce the same guff at the drop of a hat. Please point to specific measures or actions in the treaty? The only specific items I can find are in relation to deficit percentages, fines, and funding sources – there is nothing specific to do with employment or growth.

Martin, you’ve listed the fluff thats telling the readers what they want to hear before the actual facts and figures and measures which have nothing to do with growth or employment.

Please, prove me wrong, give us the measures withni the article dealing with unemployment and growth….

anyone who goes against bad ideas and bad judgement is just talking guff and serving there own best interests..thats your argument ha..short memory

That’s right Martin, the emperor has no clothes.

Because you was probably rude to someone. The Journal have standards.

Wonder away there mcbab see where it gets you!

Did your comment have the solution to the crisis in it?