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Dublin: 13 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Everything you need to know about the Croke Park Agreement

It is a key agreement between government and the public service representatives but just what exactly is the Public Service Agreement, as it is officially known, all about and why does it create so many talking points?

Brendan Howlin with the first progress report of the Croke Park Implementation Body.
Brendan Howlin with the first progress report of the Croke Park Implementation Body.
Image: Sasko Lazarov/Photocall Ireland

SINCE ITS INCEPTION two years ago there has been much said and much written about the Croke Park Agreement by those closely linked to it such as politicians, trade union leaders and ordinary workers in the public service.

But while there has been much talk of increments, redundancies, and reforms there are some who are still a bit confused as to just what exactly the agreement is all about.

Recently we were asked by some readers to explain what the agreement entails, why it is so important, and what it means on a wider level for the country, its economy and its workers. We’re a pretty obliging bunch here at TheJournal.ie, so here’s what you need to know…

What on earth is the Croke Park Agreement?

What will now and forever (or at least until the end of this piece) be known as the CPA is an agreement reached by the government and the Public Services Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) as well as the Garda and Defence Forces representative associations in June 2010 i.e. public sector workers.

Officially known as the Public Service Agreement – but given the name because of the venue where negotiations took place (in its conference facilities as opposed to on the field!) – it runs from 2010 to 2014 and is broadly a commitment by the public service to “change the way it does business” and in return there is a commitment from the government that there will be no reductions in pay rates or compulsory redundancies within the public sector.

Excluding those who work in semi-state companies like the ESB there are just over 334,000 people working in the public sector which accounts for just under a fifth of the current workforce in Ireland. That makes the agreement a pretty significant one within the Irish labour market.

Okay but what does “changing the way it does business” mean?

Effectively it means that public servants and their managers are required, under the agreement, to work together to change the way in which the public service operates so as that it does so with less money and less staff  but more efficiently.

The idea is that while there is less money and less staff the level of service from the public sector does not fall and in some cases it is hoped the level of service can be improved.  The primary goal, as it was when the agreement was reached pre-bailout, is to get the budget deficit below 3 per cent of gross domestic product by 2014 and this effectively requires a significant reduction in the number of people working in the public service.

So if we look at health for example, the idea would be that even if there are fewer doctors, fewer nurses and less money for management in the health sector to operate with there would be a change in the way they work to ensure that the same level of service continues. Similarly this would be the case in education where fewer teachers, and less money would still mean that pupils and students would get the same level of education.

The same would theoretically apply in all areas of the public service such as the gardaí – where we know that station numbers are being cut - emergency services and the overall civil service. This also all ties in with the current government’s wider reform agenda with Health Minister James Reilly looking to radically overhaul the provision of health services in Ireland, as just one example.

Hold on, but 2010 was when the last lot were in power?

That’s right. This agreement was reached in the final months of the Fianna Fáil-Green Party coalition government but had broad cross-party support and the current government has pledged to honour the CPA particularly given many of the unions involved in it would have an affiliation to the Labour Party. As recently as April, the Tánaiste and Labour leader Eamon Gilmore said of the CPA: “An agreement is made, you honour the agreement.”

The programme for government commits to reducing staff levels in the public sector by between 18,000 and 21,000 by 2014 compared to the total number at the end of 2010.

So we’re in 2012, halfway through the deal. How has it been working so far?

Well so far we’ve had two annual reports into the deal and how it is being implemented which have claimed that savings of €600 million were made across the public service in the first year and €920 million in the second year. That brings you to around €1.5 billion in total which has been saved so far across the public sector.

Staff numbers have been reduced by 17,300 in those two years which include the exodus of more than 8,000 staff in the early part of this year under an early-retirement scheme. You may remember that was causing particular concern about what contingency plans were in place to deal with these departures and the potential effect on frontline services. There was a lot of talk of redeployment of workers in areas where there would be the type of losses than might impact services.

On top of that we had one of the country’s leading economists Colm McCarthy bemoaning the government’s handling of the retirements as well as criticising the public service pension scheme which he said is underfunded and akin to a “Ponzi scheme”.

But aside from that the two reports so far have indicated the in broad terms the agreement is working and functioning as it was intended. The public service was “doing more with less” the Public Expenditure and Reform Minister Brendan Howlin said at the publication of the second review by CPA Implementation Body recently.

So it’s working fairly well. What should we be worried about?

Well broadly the CPA is working, yes, but there are a myriad of concerns from both the government and the public sector trade unions and representative groups as to whether the CPA as it stands is sustainable for another two years.

Unions such as the country’s largest, SIPTU, are worried about the effect the deal is having on low-paid workers which they believe are being disproportionally affected by roster changes, redeployment, extended working days and loss of allowances.

On the other side of the table, business repesentative groups such as Chambers Ireland have voiced concerns that the deal is not delivering enough savings given the deficit which for the first half of this year was around €9.4 billion. Some within government have also raised concerns about the deal.

Chief among them are the Transport Minister and Fine Gael TD Leo Varadkar who caused controversy in two instances last month. First he suggested that there should be compulsory redundancies in situations where a State agency or quango is closed down. The CPA specifically states that compulsory redundancies will not apply within the public service.

He also suggested that pay increments should be deferred saying that it could save as much as €200 million a year. The CPA makes no mention specifically of increments but commits to there being no further reductions in the pay rates of serving public servants for the lifetime of the agreement.

Unions would view increments as being part of pay rates and also argue that such a reduction in increments would hit the low-paid disproportionately. They also think that allowances, which were in the news this week, are protected under the agreement and cannot be touched by the government. Some teaching unions have gone as far as to say that they will ballot for industrial action if they are cut in anyway.

Given the economic situation, surely Varadkar is not being unreasonable in suggesting some changes?

Well it should be noted that the CPA came about after two years where €3 billion had been saved from the public service pay and pensions bill with a considerable effect on the public service. This came about through pay increases due that were not paid, a general moratorium on recruitment and promotion, a pension related deduction of, on average, 7 per cent applied to all public servants’ earnings and a reduction in rates of pay at the beginning of 2010.

From a public service worker’s point of view they made significant sacrifices leading up to the deal and have agreed to significant sacrifices in the deal whereby they are committing to doing more with less staff and less money at their disposal. In return they will keep their jobs and their pay rates which for some, worried about Ireland’s deficit and the overall efficiency of the public service, is not sacrifice enough.

Those who question the effectiveness of the CPA cite the annual bill for sick leave of around €26 million and the myriad of public service allowances that were disclosed this week and think that more needs to be done to cut the cost of Ireland’s public service.

What does the public think?

In April an Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll found that the majority of the public wanted the deal either renegotiated or abolished. The opinion poll found that 16 per cent believe the deal should remain in place, 43 per cent want it modified in some way, and 22 per cent want it abolished. But nearly a fifth (19 per cent) have no opinion at all on the deal.

Those who were polled are likely to have varying reasons for wanting the deal to be altered in some way. Some believe that as it stands, the CPA is not delivering enough savings in the public service and that more needs to be done in terms of there being a provision for redundancies and for pay rates to be cut.

Others believe that the deal as it is structured now is not fair on the low-paid workers in the public sector in that the changes that are coming into effect are more likely to affect those on lower wages than those earning higher salaries.

So clearly there are issues, disagreements and splits but what’s going to happen?

The deal has another two years to run. While there will no doubt be plenty of talk about it in the months and years ahead the official line for the moment remains that the government is committed to it as long as the unions are committed to it too. The unions will maintain the line that the agreement must be preserved while holding the threat of industrial action and possible strike if it is not.

Speaking in the Dáil recently, Brendan Howlin – whose responsibility it is it to oversee the implentation of the agreement – said: “So long as Croke Park and the unions signed up to it deliver their side of the bargain, the government is committed to delivering its side.”

Politically, there is a strong feeling within the Labour Party that the agreement needs to be honoured. While on the face of it there is also a commitment from Fine Gael to the deal there is, as evidenced by the comments of a senior party figure like Varadkar, a belief that the agreement may need to be revisited. At the very least there is a frustration with the limits it puts on reform of the public service among some in the senior coalition party in that there can be no sackings or pay cuts.

Despite a series of austerity laden budgets and unemployment this week hitting just short of 15 per cent there has been little in terms of industrial strife in Ireland. Unlike Greece, people here have not been on the streets in their masses and that has a lot to do with the presence of the CPA which accounts not only for significant portion of the workforce but just under half of those in the workforce that are members of unions.

And for that reason the success of the Croke Park Agreement will be largely dependent on the success, or not, of the economy in the months and years ahead.

Read more on the Croke Park Agreement >

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Comments (85 Comments)

  • The Irish don’t protest, we emigrate.

    Reply
    • And the majority emigrate because they want to, not because they are forced to. They could stay here on the dole or take the crappy jobs that migrants end up doing but instead, we mo9ve to other countries and work in our chosen field and get invaluable experience.

      Reply
    • Tommy- that was the case prior to 2009, but in the current economic malaise people are leaving to find work. Many of my friends have left, and none did so out of choice. These low paying jobs that you speak of are already filled. We have 400,000+ on the Dole, so saying their is work there if we want it is incorrect, and paints a misleading picture of our current financial state. Anytime a job is advertised anywhere the company receives thousands of applications.

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    • Kenneth, plenty of my friends and family have emigrated too but all of them through choice. Most even left jobs here to move away. Sorry to hear that yours had no other choice though.

      If your friends are emigrating then they must have some qualifications that are needed in other countries so they can go abroad to work in their chosen fields. Or they can work in the type of jobs advertised in Dublin city centre over the past few months in various shops and restaurants yet when i go into these places, the vast majority of staff are not irish so this must mean the Irish are not applying.

      Even the tourist office on Suffolk St is full of non Irish staff!

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    • Kenneth, we took in 30.000 migrants last year and they are still arriving to our shores so there must be jobs somewhere!

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    • Tommy I haven’t spent years becoming an engineer so I can work in a centra, so yes I was forced to emigrate.

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      John, in a country this small, there is never going to be enough jobs for every graduate such as yourself. When I finished my degree I couldnt get work in my field so I was a waiter for a bit and then went to Saudi for a couple of years.
      I made that choice for myself just as you are now. How on earth would a country this size have enough work for however many engineers that qualify every year? My bro left an enginering job here to move to Perth. You could stay here and work in Centra and get your cvs out there and then at least you’d be here if a job came up.
      Students are well aware that not all of them are going to get jobs at home unfortunately.
      There are german engineering companies opening in Galway and Cork so maybe you could get your cv in there?

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      And John, with respect, You cant expect to come out of college and walk straight into the area you have studied.
      we have thousands of science and business graduates who cant get work here so maybe people need to either look at what areas do we actually need people for or accept that people will have to emigrate if they really want to get into a certain field.

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  • tozyurt 07/07/12 #

    Let’s Have a logical debate on this. Generalisations don’t help really. Public sector work force includes lots lowly paid workers and highly paid cronies of politicians . Let’s make a distinction between these 2 groups . This agreement was a great trick by the highly paid ones to get themselves bundled in with the rest and same conditions . Corrupt union leaders loved it too , their old time partner FF had given them all they wanted. This agreement should be revisited protect the lower paid guys and get rid of the politically appointed managers. Early retirement scheme should be scrapped total cash for friends scheme then get rehired!

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  • In the area I work I see no evidence of any increased efficiency since CPA. I can see plenty of scope for it but with poor management in place , the workers on the ground just continue doing what they did before , with unnecessary duplication , poor use of available IT systems. I have seen a worker re deployed under CPA from an area where they worked well for twenty years to another area where she had no experience at all. She is now struggling to do her new job and is making a dogs dinner of it. This change was foisted on her. This is not efficiency : it is quite the opposite because as she continues to make a hash of her new duties, the work has to be redone. Yet this will be presented as a success under CPA

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    • How ‘available’ are these ‘available IT systems’/ Just because they exist doesnt mean the organisation has the funds to pay for them.
      People wont get experience if they arent given the opportunity to do other jobs and when they are given the opportunity, there will always be teething problems.
      In my job, I am doing a lot of work which Im neither trained to do nor is part of my remit yet if I didnt do it, there would be no one to do it as we cannot employ a suitably trained or qualified person due to the moratorium on jobs. We just cannot win!

      Reply
    • One lady out of over 300,000 workers, not all who have been redeployed are as inflexible as her.

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    • In reality there should be no teething problems where a person is moved to a job they neither have the skill or the aptitude to do. This attitude in Ireland that we make do in the PS with inadequacy is why our PS is so inefficient. I can see first hand where managers and their departments are so insular in their view that there is no inter departmental communication to allow everyone to work together as one team. Anecdotally, most managers are resistant to the changes needed in CPA, not purposely, but by sheer ineptitude. Most managers in PS became managers because they were promoted via an internal system that allows people to become people managers who don’t have the skills to do the job. Seniority over suitability. So we have a system full of inadequacy and incompetence. This results in poorly managed “efficiences”. I do accept that there are many managers and employees in the PS who are excellent at their jobs, but I would challenge everyone of them to say, hand on their heart, that the changes are real, effective and without resistance.

      If the CPA was audited in an unbiased manner, I bet those figures of savings would have many holes.

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    • @Alan Dooley You’re right, I know quite a few managers who are less qualified than the people they’re supposed to manage, nepotism is rife. Its not so much an “old boys club” as a girls club, very often the first anyone knows of a vacancy is when its filled. There is constant traing courses provided for “managers” in basic IT”.
      We need a Public Service, the health Service is the biggest part of it so lets look at that. They say its possible to do the same job with less doctors and nurses, this would leave a child rolling around the floor laughing. No, it isn’t. Go to any large hospital’s A&E Department tonight and tell themthey’re going to loose just one nurse and one doctor. The effect will be devastating. Even go to an average ward, any one will do, tell them the same thing, a nurse has to go and the results will be the same.
      We can’t have it both ways, on one hand we want and expect a competent, efficient PS, trust me so do we. But cutting the numbers and wages of low paid, front line staff will never achieve this.

      Reply
  • Here we go again …

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  • Yeah, do remember that public sector workers pay huge taxes, more than the priate sector. Taken a huge hit already. Silly comment saying “Can we afford to continue adding €20,000,000,000 to our debt each year”. You have to. Without a public sector you’ll have nothing. No services, no education, no Gardaí. The general public talk about pay but ‘pay and conditions’ go hand in hand. Conditions have deteriorated across the sector. The Gardaí are under funded as we saw during the week in Donegal, the HSE are well underfunded as i’m sure we’ve all experienced, schools are severly underfunded as classes are getting bigger, teacher numbers are lower, budgets for every child is getting squeezed.

    How about cutting social welfare down to a small percentage of minimum wage. My friend was highering at minimum wage and he’d two applicants. He offered it to a friend who said “sure i’m getting dole, medical card and rent allowance. I’m better off on the dole.” Anyone on the dole after 6 months = 25% reduction, another 6 = a further 25% off the original and after that gone. We have to. It’s getting ridiculous, a way of life but the Government won’t cut it because that’s 434,000 votes lost in a single swoop.

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    • Cradle to grave welfare families need to be completely cut off welfare.
      If 250,000 Polish people can get employment here then why cant our own?

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    • mel 07/07/12 #

      It’s amazing how on your argument you say the HSE and Garda are “underfunded” they are not it’s simply how the money is spent
      Under the CPA or to give it it’s proper title the labour cartel ; wages can’t be touched so therefore in Health 80% of the budget is pay,do therefore services have to be cut likewise with the Garda
      I run my own business and when the recession hit I had to sit down and look at ALL costs including wages which in the end had to be cut which I didn’t like doing but had too,but on the public sector this logic doesn’t exist
      Then you go on to attack the unemployed ,I constantly hear PS workers say the recession is not our fault well is it the unfortunate person on the dole?
      I have friends and relations in the dole through no fault of there own and it’s no picnic as you seem to say
      Then you quote the Rent Allowance as a reason to stay on the dole
      Only 5% of people on the dole receive this so get your facts straight first also the medical card is only of use if u get sick you cant get your shopping or pay your mortgage with it
      I have a sugestion why don’t we have a new round of benchmarking and compare all rates of pay to a European standard and have everything out in the open and this time included your heavily subsidised pensions that way it would stop this split in society
      Also the previous benchmarking exercise was supposed to give us all these efficiencies,what happened to that?

      Reply
    • First of all Mel, if you read this properly you’ll see the Public sector have also taken significant pay cuts, so don’t fear we’re all living with less, not just yourself.

      I love when people quote the European average for PS pay. It’s true that 6 or so years ago we were near the top but with the cuts we have taken we’re now actually somewhere around the middle. I’m of course taking about frontline staff.

      What needs to be done is to bring the wages of the upper echelons of the PS down to appropriate levels as they are still way above European averages. the average PS worker would gladly support that. We’re sick of being accused of being rich when in reality many of us are struggling with bills and mortgages like many others in this country.

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    • @tommy you are correct about the cradle to grave social welfare portion of our society, but there is a benefit to always paying welfare. If, at some point, you cut off parts of society who may not typically have a good education or a desire to work, we could expect to have crime rates increase and the damage done to that section of society could become irreparable for generations. Yes, they are free loading, but I think it’s a necessary evil.

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      People who dont have a ‘desire’ to work?? Tough tomatoes! Theres litter all over this country, maybe these people should be made get off their bums and clean up or paint over graffitti and if they didnt get educated, provide them with an education and some sort of classes to boost their self worth and self esteem to help make them more functional integrated members of society.
      We spend millions in welfare on Roma gypsies and massive African families in childrens allowance etc yet we cant educate our own people? Priorities must be given to educating irish people. We owe it to ourselves to sort this out.

      Reply
  • From the front page blurb: “why does it create so many talking points?”

    It doesn’t. Certain media outlets (especially ones owned by dyed in the wool Fine Geal people looking for soft-touch oversight of media ownership in this country) create stories, and resultant talking points, using cherrypicked information available in the public domain and sensationalist headlines to keep one set of low paid workers against another set of low paid workers while the wealth laughs all the way to the bank.

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  • At the end of the week where there’s been a few dodgy Public Service stories and in general a lot of talk on the matter, I have to say that this is a very fair and unbiased explanation, which covers both sides of the arguments very well.

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  • This agreement is destroying the health sector!hospitals are completely understaffed which is resulting in an inadequate care provided to patients. Constantly here of doctors and nurses leaving to go to the uk and oz for work when it cost the government over 30k per student to train in! Have heard of several examples of nurses offered early retirement who are than hired back by their same employers through agencies! #flawed

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  • Pity all you private sector disillusioned did not decide to serve your country and join the public service instead of chasing instant wealth!

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    • mel 07/07/12 #

      @instant wealth u can’t be serious,400000 people on the dole how many are PS workers ,none ,these people could hardly all join the public service such a ridiculous statement to make shows your level of intelligence

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  • This is a really well written informative article. Whether people agree with the CPA or not it sums it up nicely especially for those ( like me ) that don’t fully understand it .

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    • I agree. very well written. factual,concise, easy to understand, jargan used but explained! now if only our ministers could deliver public information with this approach. there wouldn’t be so many citizens views bandied about that are based on speculative media opinions and we would all be very clear about how well our government ministers are managing kathleen ni hualibhain!

      Reply
  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @ tommy c , to say that people are emigrating out of choice is just plain stupid I know plenty of tradesmen who are working on England and Norway away from their young families and only seeing them once a month this isn’t out of choice,cop on
    Also could you tell me why you think your ENTITLED to a tax free lump sum of 75k you didn’t contribute one cent towards this it’s borrowed with the same borrowings that pay the dole that you are giving out about so if you want to abolish the dole as you are suggesting them lets abolish your lump sum too
    Also according to actuary calculations for pensions there is usually a ratio of 1:20 when calculating pensions ie for every 20 contributes it pays out 1 so multiply your 12500e a year pension by 20 and that’s the true cost of your pension

    Reply
    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      Mel, I didnt give out about the dole! I suggested that the cradle to grave welfare recipients were cut off eventually.

      I have 2 brothers who have emigrated to Aus. One an engineer and one a spark. Both left jobs here to go abroad so not everyone is forced to leave.

      Did i mention being ENTITLED to anything? I went into a PS job because i chose a pension and job security over earning much more money in the private sector. I think it was an intelligent move on my part and the part of those who went into the PS during the boom when everyone else was laughing at the crap salaries!

      Reply
  • What public sector unions are affiliated to the Labour party?

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  • I don’t think the begrudger argument works very well, if you wanted you could have joined the public sector et al. The CPA was just a follow on from the benchmarking fiasco that did as much to destroy Irish society as much as anything else. If you work in the private sector you salary is set by the market if you work in the public sector your salary is based not the market but on a false scale worked out between interested parties.

    The tax thing is a good one as well, tax take from the public sector is a zero sum gain. The country would be no worse off if you paid the public sector tax free. By that I mean if you paid people their salary minus whatever tax they would have paid.

    By no means does any of this take away from the value services provided to society by the public sector, but is the system fair and equitable?

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  • Can we afford to continue adding €20,000,000,000 to our debt each year while we are already drowning in debt.
    Surely when you are already in a big hole, you have to stop digging.

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    • Can we afford to have our nurses etc emigrate because theyd get paid better elsewhere?

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    • And remember that PS workers pay massive taxes.

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    • Tommy C just to let you know tax take from PS sector equal to PS sector pension bill.Figures from dept of finance if your wondering.

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    • So the tax we pay is equal to the pensions we get? Im not up on my economics but that sounds like we dont cost the PS anything then!
      What about the €400pm thats taken from my gross towards my pension? (I need this €400 now more than in my 60s!!)

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    • Tommy C in simple terms the tax take from the Public sector is equal to the Pension bill for the public sector.Overall.

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    • So again, it balances itself out!

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    • Are you saying your pension will only be a €100 a week.I think you know whhat the figures i quoted you mean but if you want to pretend you don’t well thats your choice.

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    • My pension will work out at a lump sum of €75k and then €12,500 a year on top of the state pension which I contribute PRSI too.

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    • And thats only if I have 40 years service.

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    • Just to add to this, the luxurious pensions which have been associated with the PS are a thing of the past. I began teaching 4 years ago and my pension will be fine, but nowhere near as lofty as someone who joined the PS 10 years ago. Similarly, any new entrants who join the PS now have a god-awful pension and join on lower wages than their colleagues. I was lucky enough to secure employment just before this arrived.

      Also, were I to teach in England, I would be aid significantly less (although I would have less teaching hours to actually teach so that maybe why) but if, like many teachers around my age, I went to Dubai, Qatar, Africa I could do the same job for almost double the pay. While I’m not as familiar with other areas, it’s my understanding that that a similar point can be made for doctors, nurses and other front line staff.

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    • Tommy my last comment to you if you feel you are hard done by in paying 100 a week to get at present a pension of 12500 a year and lump sum of 75000 i suggest you ring a few pension providers and request a quote to provide you with the above you might be shocked.BTW Private sector pensions are not guaranteed yours however is.

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    • Norman, ours is NOT guaranteed! You have no idea whats gonna happen in 25 years when Im at pension age!
      Remember you could have gone into the PS but you didnt. Begrudgery is an ugly thing.

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    • Tommy where did i say i’m a private sector worker,but my wife is.I will repeat your pension all going well i s gauranteed,eventhough my wife pays alot into hers,there is no definate final figure and certainly no lump sum paymentAlso no need for italics makes it seem like your shouting.Take care now.

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      Norman, you said it! ‘All going well’, well things arent going well. I know there wont be a pot to p*ss in when I retire.
      Again, if youre private sector then you knew what you were signing up to when you got your job as did those of us in the public sector. stop with the whining.

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      And they are capitals NOT italics.

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @conor I also note on your argument that you quote the story of the Garda car during the week to support your argument
    But you don’t quote the story about the girl with cerebral palsy in the midlands who attends a respite and care home every day
    Her father was on the board of the home and he was talking about there budget he said that because there staffs pay was linked to HSE pay they had to pay the increments which would cost 300,000e extra therefore they had to cut services which directly affected his daughter
    So here we have an agreement which says “I’m alright jack” and feck the begrudges!

    Reply
  • Tommy,
    You are making a case for a pay increase – can you address the debt question.

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    • I never mentioned pay increases once Patrick.
      My increment is worth about €12 extra to me so by all means hold onto it if its gonna help the state coffers but you need to realise that if you cut peoples wages again then we will not be able to afford to spend at all. As it is I havent had a holiday since 2005, my car is a 95 Fiesta and my missus and I are still renting. Both of us have medical jobs in the PS. We’d get paid more in the private sector, in Canada, the US, Australia and NZ so if we get to the stage where we cant even afford to keep the car, then emigrating is something we have discussed and might look into more.
      The money we pay towards our pensions, well we’d both rather have that now than 20 years down the line when it probably wont be available to us anyway.

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @brian u asked for a few sugestion’s do here goes
    The first thing would be a new benchmarking system across the PS ,except that this time it should be open and transparent with all conclusions published on line
    It should have involvement from the private sector and benchmarked to other PS in a similar EU country
    Secondly Is the matter of pensions it is grossly unfair that we have a pension apartheid in this country with thousands of private sector workers with no pension or a under funded pension for themselves and yet these same people are made contribute to PS pensions through their taxes
    If PS workers want a pension on retirement them they should pay the same amount as a private sector worker would have to pay
    Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of low paid PS workers who do great work but we have to be realistic and transparent with the way we use our taxes
    Also all lump sum payments should be abolished over all grades these are totally unjustified especially as now we are bankrupt
    But I would definitely start at the top the current CPA does the lower payed in the PS no justice as the higher paid are hiding behind your coat tails that distinction needs to be made

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    • OK, benchmarking. This was originally introduced in the PS because the so called boom was starting and PS salaries were lagging so far behind the Private Sector that many were leaving and there was a serious drain on vital resourses, what I was being paid then would be illegal now. It was the Private Sector that forced a need for the original Benchmarking. Its all very well calling for another one now with the express purpose of reducing our salaries, hardly fair is it, you want to compare them to other countries, but then we don’t have the same cost of living as other countries. If I was paid half my wages but the cost of living is a quarter what it is here I’d be more or less earning twice what I am now. Not gonna happen though.
      You then go on to talk about pensions. Let me explain this slowly. We have to join the pension scheme, we have no choice. Got it? Most of us don’t even believe we’ll see a cent. But if one of my colleagues pays his pension for 40 odd years he signed a contract, he didn’t have a choice and so surely, yes, he is entitled to recoup his end of the bargain. He paid his end of it for 40 odd years so this is not something for nothing.
      I agree that the CPA does the lower paid in the PS no justice and its those at the top who should be targeted, but does anyone seriously see that happening, do you honestly think I’ll get back what was taken off me? Nope, me neither.
      I’m glad you think there are “plenty of low paid PS workers who do great work”, I agree, and we’re seriously p**sed off reading stories in the media every second day about ourselves, when you question anyone about them they invariably say “oh I didn’t mean the low paid PS, they’re doing a great job, its the managers I meant”. Problem is we all get hit.

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  • Corruption at its finest in this filthy little island.

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    • That’s the spirit Martin…it’s people like yourself with that attitude of referring to our own country like that, is the biggest problem this country faces.

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    • Martin, can you please give examples of how the CPA is an example of corruption. It was negotiated in public by both sides, neither ferrying their own way but rather a compromise to allow the state to continue to function? Less of the unsupported sweeping statements please

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    • It was negotiated by public servants with public servants

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    • David, while I disagree with Martins comment in terms of the PSA, corruption in this country is rife and goes largely unchecked. A token scapegoat now an then that hopefully pacifies the people’s outrage. It all adds up to make this country a pretty miserable place to try to make a living. Politicians are able to hold office after clearly breaking the law and hold on to get their fat pensions (the only fat pensions out there). My view of this country has changed for the darker too but I’m stuck here after buying a house. I’m not saying the grass is greener anywhere else but I resent the restrictions that mean I can’t look. I never thought I’d hate Ireland but here I am…I work full time and pay taxes and still end up with little or nothing for it, less every year as I go along. Of course a person would be angry and resentful.

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    I’m calling for another benchmarking not to reduce wages as you seem to sugest but to lay every thing out in the open, pay ,sick leave ,holidays,pensions,allowances and increments that way it would stop this split in society
    If you have nothing to hide then what is the problem ,the public sector unions wanted benchmarking with the private sector and they got it but pensions holidays etc…were not included nothing was published and it was all done in secret
    I understand people pay into pensions for 40 yrs but u still haven’t addressed the issue that they don’t pay in anyway near what they get back
    If you wanted benchmarking with the private sector then do it transparently
    The tax take has collapsed and the sooner all public sector unions realise that it’s not business as usual the sooner we will get out of this mess

    Reply
    • Sorry for not replying last night, broadband was down. Again. Everything you want discussed in the open, pay, sick leave, holidays, pensions, allowences, and increments have already been discussed at length and are a matter of public record. I get less than €500 per week, what about you? What more do you want to know? You’re going to have to accept that there are certain areas that stray into confidentiality, data protection etc. You already know far more about me than I know about you..
      The tax take has collapsed, you’re right, but bear in mind that the Public Sector makes up about 20% of the workforce and so a supplies a significant amount of tax to the Department Of Finance, if wages are reduced at the very least that goes too. To reduce numbers any further will result in chaos, virtually every major department is at breaking point as it is, garda stations are closing, hospitals are closing or seeing reduced services, SPA’s going, teachers with bigger class sizes than you and I had and using dangerous antiquated buildings, firemen having to sue their employer as their equipment is so dangerous.
      At the end of the day we need a Public Service, it has to be paid a fair wage, thats reasonable. You can’t compare like for like as there is no Private Sector health service, or gardai or fire service. People will get sick and perhaps more so in certain areas than others, but you simply cannot punnish everyone for the crimes of the few.
      You know I’m sitting here wondering why the Hell its always the lower paid PS workers who end up defending it when most people are only critical of the higher up well paid fat cats who never say a word in their own defence. Most people criticise us without having a clue about us or what its like to do our jobs, the hope to Christ they don’t meet us in a professional capacity, in a hospital, a garda station or at the buisness end of a fire tender and if they do what happens then? They wonder if the hospital is clean, sorry those trained and qualified cleaners were replaced by a contract outfit who don’t know what they’re doing as they’re mostly kids. They’re spending 5 days on a trolley in a cold corridor, sorry you wanted efficiency so that meant closing hospitals in the region and reducing staff but everyone has to come to this hospital now. What’s that you’ve been burgaled again and you’re waiting 8 hours for a garda to investigate, sorry you wanted efficiency there too so the local garda station was closed and the nearest garda is 60 miles away. Your house burned to the ground and it could have been saved, well there’s that efficiency word again, the local fire station was closed at nights so they had to come from the regional fire station, who knew they’d get stuck in traffic?

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  • Your explanation should read that Croke Park guarantees no “further” cuts in pay. This deal was agreed after two cuts in public servants pay had already taken place ( not sure about hospital consultants), most public servants have already had cuts. It is disingenuous in the extreme to imply that no cuts have happened. The divide and conquer tactics are so disgusting and are either deliberate attempts to manipulate or just a result of lazy journalism devoid of any real analysis.

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  • All these changes would happen automatically in the private sector. It appears that if you want flexibility in the Entitled Sector you need to bribe them

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    • mel 07/07/12 #

      @paul your dead right as I said earlier wasn’t the original benchmarking supposed to give us all these efficiencies
      Also the CPA implementation body that produces the figures could hardly be called independant as Howlin stated
      It has union officials and public servants sitting on it,how’s that independant ?

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @tommyc , 250,000e that is the amount you would need in your pension pot to buy a pension of 12500e a year ,do you seriously think you would have contributed that over your employment life I think not these pensions are paid out of current expenditure because the ponzi scheme pension pot is bust

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      Im currently paying €400pm so if that was all i paid over 40 years that would amount ot €192,000 but after 30 years in this job I’ll be on maximum salary of €50k so my contributions will go up accordingly. This money gains interest over the years and will be invested by the government or used to pay bondholders. Maybe this is the big picture that should be looked at or maybe the fact that politicans get full pension after 2 years?

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  • mel 08/07/12 #

    @brian what’s wrong with 500e a week for job security,guaranteed subsidised pension ,sick pay, an increment every year regardless of performance and more holidays than the private sector
    I’d say if you offered those conditions to the 400,000 on the dole any one of them would bite your hand off
    Also to compare yourself to the private sector is ridiculous ,as you said yourself you chose to enter the PS and you don’t like when the private sector compare themselves to you
    And to suggest that the original benchmarking was transparent is a joke
    Where can we see how the conclusions were reached?
    Also the PS pension’s are another huge problem coming down the tracks ,it simply isn’t justifiable that the majority of Irish people have no pension but are yet made contribute to PS pensions that only benefit a few,how is that right

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @toommyc, you still didn’t address the question why do you think you should get 75k tax free lump on retirement
    Our country is bankrupt we are borrowing to pay this out
    That’s what I mean about a sense of entitlement my employees had an entitlement to their wage but when the recession hit they understood things had to change
    The tax take had collapsed by 30% but you still think you are entitled to the same wage and perks

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      Because on a pretty average salary for what I do, the €75k lump sum brings my salary up to a tiny amount plus i will end up paying tax on that as i will spend it in ireland where VAT is payable on everything I buy. Hmm maybe I could put it towards a house as we cant get a deposit together at the moment. It would be nice to be able to afford a house at 68 years of age. That €75k is an extra €1,875 a year for every year I work. Hardly a rip off.

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @tommyc ” the money gains interest over the years” your having a laugh most pension schemes have lost money also your pension is index linked to inflation unlike the private sector
    Also you say you are now paying 400 a month so I presume you were paying less before the pension levy so if you were your calculations are incorrect

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    • @Mel You’ve established you don’t like the current situation, ok, so please enlighten us and tell us what you’d do? Tell me what cuts you’d make, how much you’d reduce the pension, wage and numbers in the PS?

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  • mel 07/07/12 #

    @tommyc,the public service pension scheme has assets of 5billion but liabilities of nearly 120billion it’s bust
    If the same rules were applied as in the private sector it would have to shut down and it’s trustee’s would be prosecuted

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    • Tommy C 07/07/12 #

      Sure we’ll shut it down so and you can look after your own health problems and educate your own kids.
      We’ll save a fortune! It’ll be great!

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    • Mel, you appear to think that the public sector pension fund is currently used to pay pensions. It isn’t. It was only set up by Charlie McCreevy when he was Minister of Finance. The plan was to negotiate a new pension arrangement where public servants would pay into this fund and get their pensions from it. This never actually happened and the fund was raided to pay off banking debt etc.
      The P.S. pension scheme is a pay as you go scheme without a fund so there are no trustees as there is nothing to administer.This is the same scheme , more or less that they have in G.B.
      It may surprise you to learn that the teaching unions used to have their own private pension funds until a Devalera government induced them to surrender them to help with the nation’s finances.

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  • All I need to know is its awesome

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  • Public sector pay will be cut because if we drop €20 billion a year, sooner or later someone will pull the plug!

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  • mel 08/07/12 #

    @brian,another thing how long does it take to qualify as a cleaner?

    Reply
  • darm 07/07/12 #

    great piece

    Reply

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