Completely agree with you Bill

Oh so true the sooner they are consigned to the rubbish tip the better.

Spot on with that comment Bill, a couple of weeks ago one of our local Councillors, Pat Melia, was convicted for fraud after claiming two nights hotel expenses for a conference he didn’t bother to attend. His fellow Councillors are not even going to call for his resignation and he has indicated he is going to carry on representing the voters even though he is a convicted fraudster. http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0116/363074-pat-melia-macroom-councillor/

Thx John,

I can accept all those facts, can you confirm Rent allowance is not taxed or taxed. My understanding is it is tax free, but I have received abuse for stating this, and branded a lier.

HelloGoogleTracking! Rent Allowance” is fully taxed and has always been taxed as “income in the nature of pay”. … Initially it was an allowance tied to rent, Garda is prevented from working in area certain distances from relatives, is subject to transfer (often at minimum notice to places such as border for anti-subversive duty, later for BSE/Foot & mouth duty ). In later years the Department increased the “rent” allowance instead of giving certain pay rises as they wanted it to have no knock on effect in other sectors. By all means get rid of rent allowance by incorporating it into basic pay rate.

@Hello
The rent allowance as with all others is taxed.

I’m afraid google probably won’t accept your explanation either John, sure that’s not what it says in the report he’s been quoting all evening.

@Betty + Jim

From what i can find the situation is this, they should have been taxed but were not, there was a huge investigation in 2011 finding that the gardai were breaking the law
Reference
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-face-tax-hike-of-2000-with-ruling-on-allowances-2900895.html

I assume this has now been fixed and they currently pay the tax as John has said.

I hope this clarifies the situation, and why my information from 2009 did not reflect this.

They were breaking the law alright working illegal shift changes without legal adequate rest periods in between them…. for years!!!!! They didn’t complain…enough is enough.

HelloGoogleTracking – I see where ur making your mistakes. You’re depending on media articles. Unfortunately that’s a bit like trying to diagnose an illness online :-) That article is in 2 parts, the 1st deals with The Garda Commissioner had contacted revenue re some Garda allowances that werent taxed (these were uniform & boot, which we all believe are expenses and shouldn’t be taxed… And then other allowances that were in nature of pay/income such as detective allowance). This situation was regularized and tax now applies to these….
However the article then refers to rent allowance as being one of the larger Garda allowances. It doesnt state, but seems to infer, that by including rent in the article, that rent allowance wasn’t taxed but was found by revenue and taxed…. THIS IS INCORRECT ….. Again I state, Rent allowance has always been treated in the nature of pay. I state it as fact. My credibility means a lot to me so I wouldn’t mislead or use trick terminology. I did my thesis back around 1995 on “Pay & conditions of service in An Garda Siochana”. I have every pay slip since being attested in 1990. Rent allce has always been taxed and it always rose in line with general “PAY” rises whereas boot/uniform etc rose in line with Inflation/CPI.

I don’t think even this will sink in John.

Ah hopefully it will Jim…. Id also hope that people will realise that the job description of a Garda and the roles he fulfils are multitudinous …. Garda is also a point of contact out of hours 24/7/365 for other agencies who often only operate a token out of hours or “on call” service. So out of 100 things that go wrong, where you need emergency help – you can be guaranteed there is some Garda involvement whether it’s crime, traffic accident, sudden death, injured or ill person needing garda escort even while in ambulance, sudden deaths, post mortems, motorists broken down, assisting with area control re large fires, Assist customs, assist road transport officers, Social welfare inspectors, immigration officers. When a crime happens and a Garda is dealing with it, it’s the Garda who has all the legal knowledge As regards the power of arrest / detention/ search etc and the responsibility that goes with it… Management only generally get involved at paperwork time…. With responsibility should come acknowledgment financially … Im not going to critique any type of worker private or public — but if you want Garda to b paid the average industrial wage then give him only the average industrial tasks or responsibilities. Maybe then Gardai wouldn’t have half the stress or the injuries or the disrupted family life ….. Life is Give & Take – Government are TAKE & TAKE

That sign has been up on many stations for years

I agree bud it’s a pity that more of the public don’t appear to appreciate what they ( guards ) have to endure evert time they go to work. We won’t miss them till their gone and then it will be to late. The public of this country should appreciate what they have before the criminals completely take over.

Pity they didn’t walk out 4 years ago. It’s about time middle a low income workers stood up to the unions/government.
Austerity isn’t working.

And they will keep on abusing all front line staff unless we the people get a back bone and show them we have taken enough shite so they ( Fat Cats ) can continue to live their life of luxury.

I agree the bloody unions are as complicit in the suffering amongst ordinary working class people as the Government and the fat cat elite.

James, the article is about their union refusing to take any more

I’ll believe it when I see it, the words lazy / SPINLESS /. Moaners / spring to mind they also know it and will keep throwing shite at us. They will never take notice of what is happening to ordinary people. They just don’t care none of the cuts affect them so they just carry on with their privileged life style and will continue to do so because we the people let them get away with it.

Hi frank I know that, I’m saying its about time it happened it took them long enough to grow some back bone. It’s already too late for some guards they like everyone else are sinking under a mountain of dept with mortgages and everything else. Imagine having that worry on your back and then having to go and do a dangerous thankless job and having the likes of Shatter telling you, you are going to have more cuts and longer hours to work. Imagine having the constant fear of being attacked and knowing there is no back up coming because there are no cars available to transport any help which might be available. Then being hauled in front of a langer of an ombudsman to explain why you pulled out your Batton to defend yourself even if you are in danger of being stabbed with a knife or dirty syringe. So I’m saying its about time their union got a back bone and protected their members as they should have been doing for years.

Hi frank I know that, I’m saying its about time it happened it took them long enough to grow some back bone. It’s already too late for some guards they like everyone else are sinking under a mountain of dept with mortgages and everything else. Imagine having that worry on your back and then having to go and do a dangerous thankless job and having the likes of Shatter telling you, you are going to have more cuts and longer hours to work. Imagine having the constant fear of being attacked and knowing there is no back up coming because there are no cars available to transport any help which might be available. Then being hauled in front of a langer of an ombudsman to explain why you pulled out your Batton to defend yourself even if you are in danger of being stabbed with a knife or dirty syringe. So I’m saying its about time their union got a back bone and protected their members as they should have been doing for years.

They just have. They should give the talks a chance.

They have !

All they can see is the gravy train that brings them wages and expenses and other perks that are the stuff of dreams.

Absolutely right. They may not be able to strike but I’d say sick leave will sky rocket.

But its a great idea(sarcastic)

If we’ve approached the end of what we can cut from public service pay, then where else can we cut?

Pay is 70-80% of most department budgets…

@david

The 10million being put into the national museum would go a long way in the Garda budget. I guess your political party needs to prioritise though.

Apologies, I meant 20 million. Not to mention the 60 million being afforded to “pioneering projects”

A strike is only effective if not permitted to or not approved. Then the powers that be might take notice.

Would you prefer people to work for free?

@david,that % is off by a good bit but I do agree to a extent a lot of pay go’s on top officials while the lower on the food chain the less you will be GIVEN and always 1st hit

“f we’ve approached the end of what we can cut from public service pay, then where else can we cut? Pay is 70-80% of most department budgets…”

How about using the government subsidy handed to the elites to top up their pension funds? Removing this for asingle year would cover the cost of the 3 years worth of additional savings the government seeks from the public sector.

How about making unsecured bondholders accept their gambling losses?

Theres any number of options besides your glorious partys default position of hitting ordinary workers.

Legal aid, prisoner meals, prisoner transport costs, cut number of TDs, cut amount spent on international aid (as bad as it sounds), top bankers pensions / wages are too high…. There’s loads that could be cut first

Good on them. The Front Line Staff are getting hammered while the mandarins get fat cheques in duplicated jobs. If Front Line Services withdraw their services, the Government will be in a seriously bad place. Give the Front Line proper resources to work effectively and give them decent pay for the difficult job they do.

@David How about ministers pay and excessive expenses?

Great idea Jim. And by the way it’s the National Gallery. And also, by the way, that investment is creating 300 jobs. I suppose we should dump those jobs and give the gardai the allowances instead…

Gardai cannot strike

Paddy Murray
The Gardai EARN their money , It is not given to them . They well earn their money.

You mean Twenty Million. Just goes to show they do not have a clue what it is like to live in the real world. Imagine how many Guards / nurses / Firemen and other front line staff could be employed for that kind of money.

Could not agree more. The only thing that is going to change what is going on in this shit hole of a country is to stand up to the bastards for once and for all. We have had yellow streaks on our backs for far to long it’s time we got some back bone.

Could not agree more but it’s about time we did something about if instead of moaning about it.

Nothing will ever happen on this unless the people get of our fat arses and do something about it only then will the fat cat politicians start to take any notice of the people they are bleeding to death.

300 jobs for how long front line staff are more important to our safety needs / security / medical needs than bloody artefacts. Children going to school Hungary or a bloody painting which do you think is more in need of looking after.

So that’s a good excuse to abuse them is it. Hope you never need their assistance.

Too right they do a thankless job with no back up from their superiors or political masters.

And that is why they need to stand up for themselves what ever way they go about it.

Hear, hear! Well said.

I would be very happy to see them earn good wages if they were doing the job properly. In my opinion they are a complete law unto themselves, who don’t answer to anyone. I remember ringing my local station to report a serious traffic accident that left 3 cars strewn across a busy main road. Imagine my horror when I was informed that they were in the middle of a tea break, and advised me to try another station located. 15 miles away. This was back in 2005 when the force was at full strength and wages weren’t an issue.Countless other people tell similar stories, so with that in mind, I find it very difficult to sympathise with them?

I frankly do not believe that.

That’s complete rubbish you’re coming up with rodrigo, and not for the first time either.

Then what Christopher??…..I want to hear the end of your logical chain of events.

So everyone stops working, and then magically money starts raining from the skies to pay for everything. Then we all award ourselves with whatever salary we want, irrespective of where it comes from, or what revenues we have to pay with.

Sounds great, put me down for 1 million, good man yourself, you are obviously someone with a firm grasp of reality and the real world.

Firstly I welcome your correspondence and the pleasure will be mine in explaining where this ” plan ” will go. I work in the public service , the Prison Service to be exact. I work in a very hostile environment as I’m sure you will acknowledge. On joining the service like every other person I knew that I would face difficult instances within my 30 years of service , I also knew that I would be dealing with people who would be very problematic and dangerous , and I also knew that for the most part I too would be serving in my own way a sentence , as for the 30 years if serve, I too would be locked up funnily enough. I knew I was open to contacting diseases in my line of work and also there was a very high chance that on occasion I could suffer assault or worse. I also knew that I would unlike the majority work every day of every year ( Xmas Day , Bank Holiday etc and would be subjected to weekends and nights ) . However I took this on knowing that I’d be rewarded in the way of fair payment. Like other civil servants we never complained about our duties but after taking a 27 per cent cut ill be damned like other front line staff if I’m going to take more. As for 1 million Euro . . . Unfortunately I’m not aware of any front line staff on these wages. We pay over and above our fair share of tax . . However you can give me an example of another front line position that pays this 1 million euro if appreciate it if you’d notify me as soon as possible .

Very well said Christopher , Very well said.

I doubt google tracking had an answer for that one Christopher.

There’s always us the underpaid defence force to step in and hold the fort,drive the buses,do the bins,build the floods barriers,it’s hard to cross the picket when we are the lowest of the public service………what do we need an army for…bla bla bla…….what do we need this for…….our pay is under fire too and we have no union to represent us ,only an representative association to which the government don’t really acknowledge cos thy not really a union.

@Christopher

First thank you for the reply and for your courtesy and manners, I appreciate your point of view.

You never did tell me where it would all go however, I do understand your outrage, believe me I share it.
I wont tell you stories about the private sector and contrast and compare, illustrate the risks involved, the protections / exposures, pensions, competition, requirment to generate more than you take etc. I wont go through benchmarking, and pay rises, staff increases, pay bill increases overtime, corrupt government and cozy unions deals etc etc.
I will just say the picture is a lot more complicated, and point out that other perspectives exist, and have validity.

Finally, the 1 million i mention was satire……I was making the point that in a make believe world where all we have to do is demand salaries, independent or circumstance and where the money comes from…..in that make believe world I would ask for 1 million.

I wish you the best of luck, a bit of class even when outraged is rare, and you have it.

^^^*
Broken record. YAWN

What a load of rubbish

Thank you Christopher for explaining that so well. I shudder at the thoughts of what all frontline staff go through. I am also appalled at the emergence of a second class pay structure emerging for Nurses, Teachers, Gardai etc. creating inequality is not the answer and I am very surprised that the Equality Authority do not take issue with this. So I am glad that AGSI have taken the steps that they did, after all, there has never been any official recognition that they had a role to play in negotiating their own pay and conditions, these matters were decided at Government level and it was take it or leave it. So why pretend that they will have a say now, they will simply do as they are told. We are heading back to where we were pre 1919, reading the book at the moment, A City in Turmoil, Dublin 1919 – 1921 by Padraig Yeates, where @Labours founding Fathers fought to get a standardised 40 hour working week with better conditions and proper pay, the present Labour Govt. with their Union based TD’s and Ministers and Tanaiste, now preside over a concerted policy of extending working hours, reducing pay and conditions and job security, and they on their huge salaries, perks and benefits, yes, way to go!! The only legacy that Bertie Ahern got right was his use of the phrase, ‘a race to the bottom’. Oh and when they finish with the Public Service, they have made no secret of the fact that the same mindset will apply to the private sector with the assistance of IBEC and Patricia whats her name. !

Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak
A detective has been shot dead in Ireland during a botched hold-up in County Louth Breaking NEWS .

Bring it on this joe citizen will be there with them.

And then you woke up, phew what a nightmare.

Is that the reason we have an army, if so we don’t need one in the ordinary world I think the word Scab springs to mind . What is the point of front line staff standing up for themselves if their fellow workers step in and do their jobs. Ye also need to step up to the plate and support one another otherwise ye will always be stuck on the bottom rung of the ladder. Maybe a green flu might overcome the country at the same time as the blue one. If that is the only reason for an army in this country then maybe it should be disbanded and the forces transferred to the navy where they could be used to patrol our seas on fishery protection and drug prevention duties. Maybe some could be transferred to the guards so that we had a good strong police force then we could get our country back to being safe for people to walk the streets and be safe in their homes. Imagine having well trained Army Forces patrolling the streets and countryside in Garda uniforms the lowlifes and criminals would shit themselves at last the people would feel safe again we would have the winning hand for once. Lets face it if a war was to break out in the morning this country would not have a hope of defending ourselves.

Aid to civil power,entitles us to take over roles of others in case of industrial action,if we where to patrol the grounds in uniforms like the guards we would be called guards, the defence forces consist of the army navy and air corp,on many occasions the defence forces have and still to this day stand side by side and are reliant on the set of skills that each has to offer,whether its at a checkpoint and the guard is unarmed and the solider is armed, the recent years at the border where both was doing the same job but different rates of pay,or cash in transit,or such common occurrences as the containment of viable explosive devices ,the garda air support is flown by air corp pilots and the operational stuff is there for the gardai,the defence forces isn’t soley there to do the jobs of others,but is highly trained to deal with situations that may arise from industrial action,and I don’t think that if the guards/firemen/ambulance,prison officers,staff where to picket tomorrow they wouldn’t be ruffled at the defence forces stepping in,cos professionally respect is and always will be there,and thru the years chances are they served in the defence forces as I have known many to become gardai,firemen and other frontline line staff,but regarding your remark about going to war,I chuckled,the defence forces is held with high esteem thruout the world,so educate yourself and use the Internet for other things apart from Facebook …..so bleeding there… :)

If the army where to patrol the streets which would be a great deterent,and I assume you mean the army be armed,it would be a legal nightmare,with this country been health and safety mad,and the soldier whilst having to abide by the law of the land like every other folk is subject to its own military law,we are not a police state yet,

I hope they do, nothing would surprise me about what this government would do, Labour are a disgrace to human kind. James Connolly rest in peace if you can.

What you say makes great since the unions are useless they too are only interested in their fat cat wages, no matter how hard the ordinary workers are hit it does not effect their inflated wages.

At last a citizen with some sence.

His idea of keeping comminities safe is not having Travellers living near him

Well said, At least IFESA are making noise about the KCS document , SIPTU were supposed to Ballott members re the contents of it but are strangely Quiet.
SIPTU are useless in my opinion as they represent penpushers and frontline staff and the Firefighters will be sacrificed to appease the bigger numbers of penpusher subscriptions to SIPTU

I hope people saying that these cuts are justified realise the real implications if the cuts. Everything you said is happening already (but on a small scale) if these cuts go ahead it will be disastrous for thousands if families. It’s not looking good, I say all frontline staff unite and strike. Show the ginger puppet how much he needs us!

Just seen the updated article, disgusted. Hope his friends and colleagues can come together to support each other an his family.

Well said dave,how’s the frontline treating ya these days,few retirements coming up in march,the place is a changing buddy with the re-org

All good my end stu, workin harder but still enjoyin it. Hope you guys are all keepin outta trouble.

The gardai would be dead right the muppets In Leinster house need awake up call

The sooner the better maybe then they will realise how important the guards are and give them the budget they need to operate properly. Maybe if they were paid properly for what they do morale might not be as low in our police force. No I’m not a guard I’m just an ordinary joe soap that lives in fear of all the criminals that are roaming around the country side.

Hear Hear well said.

The belief is that what is on the table for all sections is so bad all will reject it that is what the government wants so they will have the excuse to legislate new laws so they can enforce what ever cuts they want across the board. The working class board.

Gail other grades have to do 40 years

Dail bar tab. Dry cleaning for ministers…..the list is endless. The point is FG are raping the middle income earners especially front line staff yet again. There is no more to give . The T bags in the dail will be the very last to have any significant reduction in pay, core, unvouched expenses and back handers!! 166 TDs + a multitude of ex T bags all getting in excess of 200k a year..<THAT IS THE PROBLEM!

Fair pay for a days work,
Allowances are payed as an Irish solution to an Irish problem
Helps give rises to one group without a what about me from the rest
Sorry everyone they have to end, pay what people are worth, pay extra for unsocial shifts nights / weekends that’s all
Politicians are the worst culprits but most public servants are receiving allowances that should be moved to core pay if justified otherwise you should lose them

It does appear that way ill grant you, but it is not the case.

I only started trying to get to the facts, establish them, then use that to form a basis to consider the rights and wrongs about allowances. What are they, are they all justified, is there some that are legacy or that don’t make sense.
Which ones are good and should be defended, how much is spent on them, how many garda do we have etc etc…….

Before I knew it I have opened a can of worms, and seemed to be attacked from every angle without basis.
Probably got carried away defending myself and my rational, but that is the nature of these things.

Im still genuinely interested in the questions above, and still believe it should be openly discussed and talked about rationally and in a fair and balanced way without the knee jerk reactions without facts to back them up
(as i see it of course) and without personal attacks

@google

One if the “facts” you stated was that rent allowance is tax free. Do you still believe this to be true?

Rip

All front line staff should stick together wether it be strike / blue Flu or other forms of action. They should tell their unions to negotiate as a collective on their behalf or get lost stop paying their union dues and the over paid union bosses will soon see that maybe their fat cat jobs are not so secure. As long as there are separate negotiations for each front line sections there will be decide and conquer.

Saturday allowance ?14 a day abolished. Sunday and public holiday pay reduced to time & 1/2. Twilight allowance (6pm-8pm) abolished. Night duty reduced to twilight rate. Premium payment abolished. As a package these amount to a savage paycut.

Absolutely staggering shocking cuts for the people who keep out streets and family loved ones safe. Fair play to them, they have all my support. FG have to stop taking from the ordinary joe. Either it stops or there will be mass strikes, Garda, nurses, ambulance, firefighters all out together. Maybe then FG will take notice, the sleeveen corrupt bankster loving puppets. ENOUGH

Also one extra hours work a day unpaid and reduced overtime rate.

It amounts to daylight robbery. Seriously these cuts are dubfoundingly staggering. It must be a plot to sabotage negotiations, it has to be. They are totally unrealistic.

Sunday pay , night duty allowance , these are no go areas, seriously people if there touched we should form our own union , frontline , and strike until they return them, no more bullshite

The information is already out in the public domain and nowhere in it does it state you get a travel allowance for going to work. People who want to take a swipe at Public servants don’t want to know the facts but only want any excuse to bash. I understand money needs to be saved but do they really think that they can get anymore blood from the front line staff ie the nurses gardai firemen ambulance crew prison officers. Each TD in this country gets nearly €15000 of an allowance to pay rates on their constituency offices yet they don’t pay these as they are exempt, theres a big saving.

Where can i find a list of allowances paid to public servants please

Most Garda allowances are listed here:
http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Garda-Pay-and-Allowances.pdf

Garda allowances are not taxed, and in most instances pensionable.
On average the bill for allowances per garda was approx 17000 per annum. This is an average with some members claiming amounts in excess of 60,000.

@hello

what allowances arent taxable, man i,m owed a fortune since i’v been paying tax on my allowances for the past ten and a half years,

oh and the vast majority dont receive a mechanics allowance, nor travel allowance

@Cormac

Allowances for rent (4k+) + mileage + clothes + boots etc are all untaxed. Rational being they are to meet expenses, and not in return for “work” done.

So apparently each any every Garda receives 4k+ per annum tax free as an allowance net, this translates gross into 10k before tax earning for someone in the PAYE system to get the same benefit.

Make sense?

P.S Cormac.

I agree not all garda claim all allowances, I’m not claiming they do.
However the Allowances bill was over 220M Euros, with approx 13500-14500 members claiming. Not all received the same and not all claimed the same, but the total is massive is divided by the number of members.

Rank and file garda I receive no mileage allowance for travelling to work everyday nor the majority of the listed allowances some of which only apply to a handful of members and allowances are taxable

@hello

yes they are taxed. All the allowances you mentioned are paid weekly and are added up as our basic pay. which are all taxed. Also most of our allowances are a % of wages, as our wages have decreased so has the allowances.

i do not receive this mileage allowance you mention, we do not get an allowance to travel to work.

Your wasting your time cormac, google tracking knows it all.

I can give you one that is named as an allowance,MSA allowance,military service allowance,if they cut that from me my weekly wage falls below 350,

” The Defence Forces are unique in the public service in that military personnel are subject to military law, discipline and curtailment of personal liberty and rights. The allowance is designed to compensate for the unique conditions associated with military life such as risk to life, long and unsocial hours of duty, exposure to danger, hazardous working conditions, frequent transfers and the constraints inherent in military discipline.
Defence Force personnel conditions of work are characterised by either 12 or 24 hour service requirements, which impose greater imposition on home life. A member of the Permanent Defence Forces has a full time commitment to military service in that he/she is liable for duty 24 hours a day, seven days a week and is required to serve for a fixed engagement which he/she cannot terminate at will.
The military discipline code involves restrictions on personal liberty, which has no counterpart in any civilian employment. Personnel cannot engage in industrial action unlike other areas of the public service. Additionally Defence Forces personnel cannot become a member of a political party or trade union.

Why don’t you stop your clearly agenda driven rants.
Garda basic pay is among the lowest in the public sector. Allowances for working unsocial hours are well deserved (hours you no doubt don’t work) and hard earned and rent allowance was to brought in to bridge the gap in basic pay compared to other jobs.
The figures your quoting are peanuts compared to what’s being wasted elsewhere and them allowances are taxed by the way.
Front line workers have taken a 20 percent pay cut already. Enough is enough. End of story!

@Comrmac

“The rent allowance is also tax-free and not taxed as a benefit in kind as it would be in the private sector. Gardai receive the allowance even if they are not renting. Senior Gardai also get Un-vouched travel allowance of €4,260 a year.”

Bullshit!!
You couldn’t lie straight in bed!

I know Betty, he’s been cutting and pasting like crazy all evening, it’s pointless to argue with somebody who thinks they know it all because of what they read in reports.

@hello

i have my paycheck in front of me for an average week

on the left side is what i get paid, wage + rent + boot + uniform. i’v added them up and guess what, they are the exact number that is displayed in the box labelled TAXABLE PAY. now i’m no accountant but taxable pay, means what i’m taxed. just to make sure i’v added up all my deductions that are on the right side and guess what, my taxable pay(wage+rent+boot+uniform) minus my deductions equals my net pay.

cant explain ita any better

@hello

and just to state, paying tax on ALL my allowaces is not new. i”v been doing it since 2002.

Ya that’s why so many young Garda Officers want to get out but can’t because of mortgages etc. people don’t believe the spin being put out there by government yes men and top civil servants their aim is to devide and conquer.

You are defo a blue shirt.

Wow did not know that.

Hear Hear well said brother.

Yawn blue shirt.

@helloGoogle tracking

yes and can we get a breakdown of how many mouths the gardai have to feed in their families and how much their mortgages/rents are and the miles they have to travel to work and the amount of time they have to spend away from their kids/families/friends when they work nights and most weekends.
cop on. The allowances are there for a reason and let me tell you they are needed and should not be cut.

@Giraffeman

There are allowances paid to members on leave, to compensate them for the allowance they would receive it they were working unsocial hours (I.E. if they were not on leave!!!!!). Getting paid an allowance to compensate for not getting paid another allowance, CRAZY

This is insanity, and there is no rational to justify it.

We all have families, we all have to travel to work, we all have mortgages, that is what our salaries are for, when they work extra hours they get overtime like the rest of us. Allowances are Union negotiated premiums, screwing the taxpayer and often unjustifiable.

Allowances that make sense I have no question with, but there are over 50 allowances, and a lot of them are ridiculous.
Rent allowance??????

Not to mention they have them pensionable? WTF? It is unions gone crazy and the taxpayer being milked, we need reform, and accountability, transparency, responsibility and common sense.

How come you can only see the allowence aspect ? The cutting of “so called”allowences that make up a living wage is the spin being used to undermine the Gardai.
You need to remember there are no more garda recruits NONE. Unless you want a force to work until they are as decrepid as the equipment they have to use you need to show more support for them and not buy into the bullshit being put out by government spin doctors

@oneilljohn

The reason no recruitment is happening is to reduce Gardai numbers, once the numbers are down recruitment will take place to maintain those numbers.

Gardai number in 2001 were just over 12, 000, in 2009 it was just over 15,000. A 22% increase and with no indications that this has had any impact on reducing crime.

Allowances Bill was on average 17000 per member a year. This is on top of pay, and has been ringfenced by the gardai and the unions as seperate from pay for years. So that it could not be analysed as core parts of required duties, and to prevent scrutiny.

Now they want to reverse their approach and claim it is core pay when it suits them.

The allowances need to be reviewed, and any ones not justified by rational should be scrapped, how can anyone disagree with this?

@google traffic, some one is telling you a load of porkie pies!

@Paddy,

All figures I quote are in the public sphere, quick google searches will confirm if you doubt any of my facts.
If you have problems finding the info, I can post links.

The might appear unbelievable, that is because they are !!! And also why they have to addressed and reviewed, no rational country who is bankrupt and running at massive deficit can continue spending in this way.

What part of yer hole did you pick that piece of uneducated verbal diatribe from? Shoo go on go home!

“allowances” being separated from the basic wage of a front line public servant is a bit like saying that the long list of deductions are not tax!!

There was never 15000; at the height of it there was a bit over 14500, including students who weren’t in stations. This was all during a time of population increase and immigration. The government has said it wants to reduce the force to 13000, but has refused to give a commitment to keep manpower at that level & not reduce it further. If you think you can rely on them not to let numbers dwindle further if it suits you’re being naive.

@Fiachra

The 15000 number is accurate and includes staff under the Gardai and justice umbrella, clerical and mechanics etc, classified under the Gardai pay budget and eligible for the allowances in question.
Technically approx 500 not Gardai true, but the figure is accurate for the purposes of my point, and the topic of gardai allowances bill reductions.

Yes the numbers can be reduced / increased to any level decided by government, that is self evident. I am not naive, the point remains that increasing numbers by 3000 had no effect on reducing crime, therefore why assume a reduction by the same number would have any effect either?

If over 500 of the 15000 are not gardaí then you can’t include them in the manpower & then say that they had no appreciable impact on crime levels, and those employees who are not gardaí are certainly not entitled to the same allowances.

I disagree,
Re Allowances : They can also claim unsocial hours allowances, mileage allowances, special mechanic allowances, not getting other allowances allowances.
Re Staff numbers : Their numbers increased and had no effect on reducing crime levels, supporting the increase in gardai numbers.
So their inclusion is relevant to manpower reductions and pay bill reductions discussions.

All this is straight forward logic, but if you want to remove them to make it simpler, I have no objection, it makes very little impact to the substance of the point. And if used as a distraction then better of without it.

Do you object that the number increases as pointed out by me?
Do you object that crime rates were uneffected?
Do you object that a lot of the allowances are not rationally justifiable?
Do you object that the unions disallowed allowances being considered during benchmarking, arguing that they were not part of pay but something separate?
Do you object that this is a complete reversal of position that is self serving and hypocritical?
Do you object that 17000 on average is a allowance figure that is unsustainable and needs to be reviewed?

How you getting on with saving Quinn insurance

Do you think that crime levels stagnated throughout the period of increased recruitment? The increase in Garda numbers coincided with the increase in population, high levels of immigration and the massive increase in the level of drug use & organised crime. The students got no allowances until they were attested, the civil servants attached to the Gardaí do not get anti-social hour allowances as they don’t work them & there’s about 20 mechanics left so anything they get is of little impact on the wages bill. The vast majority of Gardaí get only four allowances: boot, uniform (both under a fiver), rent and anti-social hours. There are plenty of private sector workers who get uniform allowances & anti-social hours payments; rent allowance is an exception, but it has been admitted that this was given as an allowance in lieu of a pay increase. There’s no way Gardaí are getting 17000 on top of their salary in allowances, your staffing figures are off and the unions didn’t disallow anything as they’ve no power & the government know it.

Hello, allowances for nights and weekends hit the guy on the beat, so background staff escape again, no you can’t touch them, there for the people doing it on the frontline, guards , nurses, ambulance men
Yes cut these allowances by doing without the service during these times, be real and fair in your opinions

Gardai do not get an allowance for being on leave you f@@kibg idiot!! It’s spanners like you who give Gardai a bad name!!

@Betty Blue

Here is a quote
“Premium Payments (€9.07m in 2008): to members who are on leave, etc, and would ordinarily be entitled to claim unsocial hours allowance if they were not on leave;”
Reference
Report of Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure 2009
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf

This is a fact, you are either talking from a position where you don’t know the facts or deliberately lying.
I assume it is that you don’t know what you are talking about, read the report educate yourself, then offer your opinion.

You are quick to curse and call me an idiot, how quick are you to admit you are wrong?

I stand over what I said. I do not get an allowance for being on leave! Fair play to ya for believing all that the government tells ya!! If you don’t work the front line then don’t comment on something you know nothing about!

No it’s the hardy bucks in Donegal and Waterford and robo in Dublin that give guards a bad name

Touché!

@googletracking

Rent allowance is most definitely taxable regardless of what you read or what you believe.

@ Betty Blue

The report I reference is accurate, it was independently commissioned and accepted ny all involved, including the garda unions.
I have supported my statement with facts and references beyond question, a statement you said I was a f$%king idiot to state, and that gardai never receive allowances when on leave.

If you decide to stand over that back it up, or shut up, otherwise you will become the definition of an idiot.
Any gardai I know are intelligent reasonable people with manners and respect, since you display none I seriously doubt you are one as you claim.

@Hello:

“Here is a quote
“Premium Payments (€9.07m in 2008): to members who are on leave, etc, and would ordinarily be entitled to claim unsocial hours allowance if they were not on leave;”

All you’ve proved here is that allowances are core pay. One cant be penalized and loose money they would ordinarily be paid when on annual leave.

A Garda is not employed 9-5 Mon-Fri, they are compensated for that very reason and so allowances are core pay.
You think someone in Intel that works shifts has the shift money deducted when on Annual leave?
You might not think it but we do have employment laws here, just because you want to stomp up and down and throw a hissy fit doesn’t make you right

@Jim

“The rent allowance is also tax-free and not taxed as a benefit in kind as it would be in the private sector. Gardai receive the allowance even if they are not renting. Senior Gardai also get Un-vouched travel allowance of €4,260 a year.”

Where are you getting your facts Jim?

@Mursh

Gardai and their unions stated that allowances are not part of core pay during benchmarking, this allowed them to present their salaries as being low to justify larger increases. All the official documentation going back decades makes the distinction.

Now if gardai and their unions argued this during benchmarking, which is it? Core or not?

Prove it.. Put up a link to that info.

At the moment it’s been shown that you are in fact a liar by stating that rent allowance is not taxed when it is.

I’m going to tell you for a second time and listen very carefully because you must have missed it the first time!
Gardai do not get an allowance for being on leave! I can’t be any clearer than that. You can post all the links to reports that you like. In 13 years I have used my full complement of annual leave each year. At no time have I ever been paid an allowance for being on leave! I don’t know any of my colleagues that have either! As I have already said don’t comment on something you know nothing about!

@hellogoogle or whatever, just looking at a 9 years service Gardai pay check right in front of me now €533 net pay which after mortgage of €386 which goes directly out. €147.22 is actual net pay for food, utility bills, car insur/tax/petrol, estate fee’s, clothes, not forget the CHILD (small human being that doesn’t come free), Etc. hmmm so let’s see what has led to this.. Pension SU 1.5%, pension PE 3.5%,Pension Related, (that’s 3 separate take outs for pension (€103), PAYE (€130.44), PRSI-EE (€45.76), Medical Aid (€35.77), USC ( 50.89), and 10 other charges which amounts to €28. (Funny isn’t it I know a family who get more on the social bear in mind they have a council house not a mortgage. Your talking QUARE SH!TE!

@Betty Blue

Your hearsay is interesting but ill rely on the published confirmed facts thank you. What you receive or have received is not the point, the point is is this mayment made, is it a allowance, is it recorded and does it take place. The reports say yes, it is not my opinion, I am not making it up, do not attack the messenger.
Did you even read the report link I provided, I suspect not.

One point googley Gardai don’t have a union, they have representative associations, not allowed be unionised.

@Karolyn

That equates to a salary of 44000+, before allowances, and child allowance, and mortgage relief.

Your mortgage is 1544 a month which is very high, and by far your biggest expense, this is the main reason your are in difficulty. Your salary is with respect very good.
Im sorry you are in trouble, but everyone is, and we all have to pay our way. you have a secure job with a good salary, you have guaranteed pay increase up to 2016, and a huge pension.
You made a bad call with property purchase but so did a lot a of people, but you knew the risks when you signed the mortgage.

Would love to see this allowance for being on leave that you are so mad about. The crap coming from some people on this is astounding.

@Paul

Just read the report

Report of Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure 2009
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf

It is all there, no need to personalise

And by the way Google tracking or whatever it is you hide behind the current Garda numbers are bull. They are made up of civilian staff working in District and Divisional offices and also the reserve. The real numbers are vastly different. Do some more research before spreading more crap.

@betty blue. Fair play to ya. This guy must be either one of the Governments spin doctors or else he/she got a parking ticket somewhere. Obviously an axe to grind. I note he/she has no issue with pay, pensions and perks the TD’s and Ministers both past and present receive. He/She also has no issue with paying for the Quinn family’s holidays.

@Paul

The figure are included in the report, it is dated 2009 and lists 15000+, max gardai numbers reached 14500 for this country. I never mentioned current numbers, but it will be less.
I have done my research unlike you, it is simple analysis to extract the real facts from peoples reactions, feel good factors, self interest and others just talking rubbish.
Without these facts what is the point in discussing it, what is the basis of your objections?

The facts I refer to are accurate and verifiable, personal attacks on me do not make sense, if you can refer me to contrary facts I will accept them.

What are current garda numbers?
What was the allowances bill last year?
What is that bill divided by the number of gardai?
In the absense of these give the most recent you can find, I have provided from 2009, and no-one is disputing them except with nonsense.

Get those facts and then you will be informed and your contribution with be very helpful.

@ Paul
I can’t talk to ya! I’m too busy filling in my claims for allowances! I’m on leave tomorrow night and Sunday!! I’d hate to lose out! I have to make up my €17000 of my yearly tax free allowances. Oul googly doesn’t know what he’s missing out on!!

@Betty

Did they not teach you what “on average” means in school?

I agree about the break down of what the allowances are, on the pension topic lets say a guard has his 30 years service done at age 52 then he has no option he has to go his time allowed in the job is done. If he cannot draw his pension until age 66 what is he and his family supposed to live on. I see your point but it is not realistic.

I think google an will be very surprised when he see what the allowances are there for that is why I agreed with him. As for the rest of his argument it just does not stand up. What we should see regarding allowances is what the Politicians are creaming off the Tax Payer in Millions every year.

Don’t know where you get your information bud, but your talking about allowances the Guards don’t even know about. Could you enlighten them of the other 49 allowances you know about so that they can check them out you’d never know maybe some of them might be entitled to draw down on some of them and maybe even get them backdated. ( n pigs might fly ). What about guards that are off work because they were assaulted and hurt and are unable to work for weeks or maybe even months maybe you have an allowance that you could enlighten them about so that they don’t have to try and survive on half pay while their out of work and falling behind on their mortgages etc.

Maybe he’s a Fine Gael follower of fashion. Doesn’t seem to have much time for the Guards. Wonder why that is.

Don’t know what planet you come from bud but it is obviously far more law abiding than where we have the misfortune to live. Your nickname is not spin doctor by any chance.

Two words. Fine Gael.

Maybe these figures apply to top brass they certainly have no reference to front line staff struggling to make ends meet in a thankless unprotected job.

Maybe these figures apply to top brass they certainly have no reference to front line staff struggling to make ends meet in a thankless unprotected job.

@ James

Most Garda allowances are listed here:
http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Garda-Pay-and-Allowances.pdf

There are conflicting sources about the total number available, some papers of record referance 108 in articles, the ones here are in Garda produced report. Some can also be found on the GRA website, and the various Justice bills dealing with Gardai.

The facts as I can garner so far are spending in the region of 240M on allowances, split amoung approx 13500 – 14000 (I am allowing for extra for fairness), you can do the math yourself.
The exact figures for 2009 are contained in the report I have linked to earlier, and also analysis of some of the unjustifiable allowance, with recommendations. It is an objective report dealing with facts, and has not been written by me.

My understanding is garda are well covered for recuperation and there is compensation packages available, as well as leeway for extra reward payments to be made by the minister in individual cases.

And why would it bother anyone what front line staff earn they deserve every cent they get for the dangerous thankless job they do. If you want to have a go at the Guards look at what all the yes sir top brass are getting.

Two words Fine Gale,,, the answer my friend is blowing in the wind a gale of wind.

Hit the nail on the head.

@James

I agree 100% by the way, the waste and cronyism at the top has to be tackled and should be priority no 1
Across every Dept, starting with politicians.

That said it has to be tackled everywhere down the line as well, i’m not targeting front line entry level employees.
Did you know the about 60+ gardai claimed over 60,000 in allowance last year? not a big number of individual granted, but it is wrong.
The increment scale is available on the GRA website, and the pay increases every year, and the salaries are very respectable before allowances and extra perks.

Maybe if they had been given the proper equipment to work with we might have seen how the law worked properly. They had Radio equipment that would not work in most areas so they had to use their own mobile phones at their own expense, they had to bring their own biros to work because they had none in the stations and the list goes on, talk about the ski stone cops. Would you work under these conditions I don’t think so.

@googletracking

You seem to be a great one for spouting “facts”, alot of which have already been rubbished today. You need to stop taking what you read on the Internet as being fact. If you’re not in a position of knowledge in relation to these matters then maybe it’s best not to comment at all.

Nice one karolyn fair play girl!

She gets €500 to work 6 10hr shifts day and night everyday of the year it’s crap pay and you kno it googley!

I responded to the rent allowance tax issue above, on an earlier post. They didn’t pay tax until 2011.

My fact were and are based on 2009 data.

Hope that clarifies, I am making an effort to research and figure it all out. What are you doing except sniping?

She doesn’t need to she has the proof in front of her!!

@googletracking

Yet again you are insisting that what you have read in a 4 year old report is true beyond doubt. You have had at least 10 current members of the gardai telling you that they have been paying rent on their allowances for over ten years. Are you suggesting that the guards are mistaken about how much they pay or are you outright calling them liars. You seem to be a very obstinate individual when it comes to this issue.

A few bad apples so paint them all with the same brush.

Politicians get travel allowance to travel to the Dail even if they use the train and the Free Travel Pass why do you not go a hunting after these parasites. Could it be you wear a blue shirt.

Well said sir.

That is so true.

More is the pity.

Hello, the rent allowance is dodgy , can’t agree with that myself, maybe if you move station, for the first year, but to have it as part of pay seems wrong, if the pays not right it should increased thus avoiding situations like this that cause resentment , it smacks of bankers bonus, politician allowances, senior management bonus, all wrong

Hello, the rent allowance is dodgy , can’t agree with that myself, maybe if you move station, for the first year, but to have it as part of pay seems wrong, if the pays not right it should increased thus avoiding situations like this that cause resentment , it smacks of bankers bonus, politician allowances, senior management bonus, all wrong

I enjoyed that comment :)

You fool. Nobody gets a travel allowance to go to work in the morning. Rent allowance is part of their pay otherwise most would be below minimum wage. Its a sad day when a persons wage only equals what people can get sitting at jome on welfare but let’s not talk about that as its not politically correct

You think guards get an allowance for travelling to work? What universe are you living in?

how do benchmark the everyday guard?

Ehh…Christmas bonuses, company cars, fuel cards, free phones, subsidised canteens and gyms. Many (not all) in the private sector do ok and fair play to them. Gardai get a wage and shift allowances. They have to be worked to be earned. Would you work Saturday nights, Sundays, public holidays for no reward? Maybe you would and your employer would tickle your belly and call you a great chap.

Publish ALL Private Sector pay rates and pensions and stop hiding behind “Commercial Sensitivity”

Gardai go to work from their homes just like everyone else. There is no allowance. By the way it’s time for a reality check on bench marking. Gardai got very little and that has been eroded and then some by the cuts. Management and Politicians creamed the benchmarking process to suit themselves. I didn’t hear anyone from the private sector calling for pay increases for frontline services during the good times when private sector workers enjoyed themselves. These very same front line workers who work day and night, at weekends, at Christmas and all other times when everyone else is at hone with their families. Now the Government want to extend working hours for free and cut critical allowance that would put most frontline workers below minimum wage. FACT. Time for a reality check people and go after those who deserve to be hit. Stop this anti frontline bullshit.

Have to agree and disagree, front line staff are living in a nightmare universe it’s only the high up leeches that are licking all the cream from the pot.

The bloody politicians do and a lot more.

From what I hear some are having to borrow petrol money from their parents to keep them going until the end of the month. How demoralising is that and to do a thankless job.

They could not get paid enough for what they do. Would you go to work where you are consistently in danger and you cannot even defend yourself because your afraid of being sued or hauled before an ombudsman to explained why you did not allow some thug to stab or shoot you. I think not. People need to cop on and realise that without the guards no one would be safe on the streets or in their homes.

Well said bro, the public need to cop on to what our guards have to do to earn a patethic wage. No I’m am not a guard just a joe soap who needed help and was over powered by the help and kindness offered to me. The only ones that have to fear the guards are the criminals and Yes there were a few bad apples in the barrels but that runs in all sections of society just look at our esteemed politicians. Need I say anymore.

Right on bro.

Could not have said it better myself. Time to save our frontline staff. People please wake up to what is going on around you. This Government are Toxic to our Health and Safety.

yea I can see the simarities between food production and policing alright.

26 Sundays and 39 Saturdays per year is working time for the Gardai. No comparison my friend.

Are being serious John? Please tell us you’re having a laugh.

What a fantastic idea I love it!! Front line workers who work Sunday’s Dont work Fridays! Super! DUH that’s about as useful as saying the simple solution is for front line workers to work Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm….who’s up for that??