Same experience here! Not in BMW or Germany, but in 3 other countries. I was shocked how “laid back” working in the continent was. They certainly don’t believe in killing themselves, but they do seem to find the most efficient ( read: easiest) way of doing everything!

The focus of this debate has fallen onto the workers. Huge amounts of the public sector pay bill is simply wasted by bad management (PPARS PULSE) and bad government policies. TDs that prioritise their constituencies to the detriment of the country. Decentralisation was a disaster which was more about slicing up a ‘cake’ among TDs constituencies than any sort of valid national strategy. Anyway, I dont understand why nobody mentions the unions. They have had too much power and abused it. Thanks to them the average ESB wage is huge. Cheaper electricity would benefit all of us from householders to companies, but they get pay increases and electricity goes up!
In 2006 civil servant unions tried to increase the 31 days holidays that senior civil servants get, on the grounds that a couple of counterparts in some cocos such as Sligo got up to 38 plus 2 privilege days.
In all fairness, paid days off to go to the races and go Xmas shopping and for some to cash cheques that they don’t even get anymore!

Who told you that?

Unless of course, the work is hurling!

FFS stop apologizing. They will never like you now.

Thanks for clarifying that, David. However, I disagree that there are a “majority” in the public sector who are on decent pay & decent hours. I presume you are referring to management etc and not frontline staff who are most certainly not on either decent pay or hours?

You need to clarify that you are talking about civil servants David. I have friends that have it way too easy in there for the salary they earn for the level of work they do… they don’t know what a deadline is and have their flexitime etc… paid overtime if they work any over their 32 so-called full time hours!! Fair play to them, but the whole culture of their work environment breeds complacency… never out of their comfort zone or under pressure to perform

Ok David fairy nuff, we’re all on the same side here but it can be so bloody frustrating to constantly have people who, usually, know very little about the Public Service or the Health Service to run it down and blame it for everything from the recession to the weather and create Public vs Private divide. We should be uniting against the banks and the causes of this mess. There’s no doubt that there are quite a few managers in the Public Service who’re overpaid and as you said… useless. When their staff do a good job, the managers get their pictures taken and claim the credit but if something goes wrong, its sthe staff’s fault. The vast majority of Public Service are on low wages, far below the average industrial wage. Our hours are the same as anyone else’s, most full time staff work a 39 hour week and the European working time directive is observed – in theory. Under this directive the maximum anyone can work in each week is 48 hours but as we have seen many may work unpaid hours and junior doctors still work well over this in some hospitals, often working lenghty hours in single shifts despite being told to stop this practice by Europe earlier this year.

As someone in the public sector who puts in an average of 70 hours a week with no overtime I’d say that there are many people putting in way over the odds and working incredibly hard without any recognition at all…

@David With all due respect would you ever… Where do you get off saying its the Public Sector bringing the average down? Do you have any experience of working in the Public Sector, do you know how many nurses work hours over their shift, one just told me today how she missed a family outing last week because she stayed behind to look after a patient during a ward crisis. Her family were upset with her but to the family of the patient she was an angel, the usual phrase. She won’t see a cent for that. Most in the Public Service do a 39 hour week, any overtime is unpaid or done with the promise of getting the time back, something you rarely get. Are you seriously naive enough to think that its only the private sector who ever make any sacrifice, no healthcare workers do unpaid overtime, or gardai, or firefighters or teachers? We all do, but we don’t fall into the private vs public sector trap.

Man, you’re screwed. Don’t touch the public sector, there’s 300000 of them Indian sacred cows and 25 feckin Unions making sure no one says a bad word about them. Just wait now to hear all the winging about nurses and teachers and blah blah.

Here, I klicked thumbs down for my entry above to open the hunting season.

I wondered how long it would take before the public sector bashing started. Everything in this country can’t be blamed on the public sector! I think you’ve fallen into the usual trap of not being intelligent enough to know the difference between the public sector and the CIVIL SERVICE!!!

Plenty of useless & lazy people coasting along in the private sector too.

Maybe this bashing business had something to do with all the taxes and borrowing necessary to keep the wheels of the public sector well greased. I wonder how Ireland ever managed its affairs few years back when paltry E7b was spent on public sector pay.

What would you like us to do, Dom, work for free?

Can you explain how Ireland got from spending E7b in 2000 to spending E20b in 2006 on public pay?

I’d say you get a nice few bob for that Lorraine. Let’s be honest, you do it because you have a job with a lot of responsibility that you enjoy with good prospects to move upwards. You’re not a martyr emptying bedpans 70 hours a week. Enjoy your weekly bag of lucre but less of the ‘woe is me!’ shtick.

Dom, you do realise that public pay encompasses politicians, their advisors etc? It is not the pay if frontline public sector workers that has inflated the figures to that extent. I’m sure you read about a former advisor of the Taoiseach receiving a €35k pay rise? Do you not think it’s people like that who are milking public money?

Bertie & his benchmarking and also that fecking croke park agreement. There’s the reason the public sector bashing occurs. Fantasy land shite. Bertie just said yes to everyone so that he looked good. Suck it up y’all.

Sara, I am perfectly aware that the public sector pay bill includes the creme de la creme. But it also includes some mid-level county managers on 60-80k, a lot of useless pencil pushers etc. All of them are milking the system. And as far as nurses are concerned, Ireland has one of the highest, if not the highest, nurse densities in the world so there’s scope for savings there too. Politicians and their advisors did not take the extra E13b in pay on their own. Entire public sector was on it.

For those who think the public sector are underpaid or at least not paid more than the private sector, look at this report from Davy in 2009 – and remember that Croke Park has protected the public sector in ways that the private sector employees have not had protection :
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2009/07/economics-11072009-public-servants-earn.html

@ Alan Lawlor, just read that blog………. and I thought we were only held to ransom by foreign bondholders….. who on earth do we think we are? These stats are as a cancer to the patient that is Ireland inc.,…. and not only do we not perform emergency surgery we actually nurture and protect the disease……..? A shortsighted lunacy that is quite simply unsustainable! It appears cronyism is not just the preserve of an elite but is also emdodied by the protectionism offered in this Croke Park deal!

So maybe all of your other preconceptions should be open to question…including the comments above.

Cat has four legs, cow has four legs, cat = cow. That is your logic.

David there are imperfect people in every walk of life, not just the Public Service, which you seem to want to blame for the current state of our country. I’m sorry but you really need to get some perspective, is your ideal Public Service one where all staff are aged between 25 – 45, fit and healthy, slim, maybe blonde haired and blue eyed too?
Of course there are some less than perfect staff, as there are in every sector, there are also people of various ages, some of these are better suited to different things and there are also staff of various fitness levels, some may develop illnesses as they get older and of course pile on the weight.
I’d like to know, at what age should we ditch those who get older and how do we get around it legally or do we just make up a reason to ditch ‘em? About those who aren’t fit anymore, how do we judge who is and isn’t fit enough and exactly what is the limit, I could bring my dog in a let him loose? Same problem here, how do we get rid of them and those who are ill are usually easy to spot but the do gooders will have a fit if we try to get rid of them, any ideas? As for those who’ve piled on the weight I was thinking of a company marathon, weekly. This may also get rid of those who have an underlying medical condition but if you have any ideas about this I’m open to suggestions.

What a ridiculous response. How about, instead of encouraging Lorraine to accept the constant abuse aimed at the public sector, you aim your spite at the people who are actually responsible for the problems in this country? ie politicians, bankers, high earning civil servants…

@David. Read lorraine’s post again. She did not say that the public sector was without problems. The problem with slating everyone I’n the public sector is that you taint everyone with the same brush- including staff who work long and hard I’n frontline services. I could generalise about the private sector too eg i could generalise and say the private sector screwed this country (based on the actions of some developers/bankers and businessmen I’n the private sector). Quite frankly the public versus private sector debate is idiotic and futile. Yes of course reform is badly needed I’n the public sector. But at least be specific who you are targeting ie get your facts straight. Generalising can be very demoralising. Before you start again on pensions (yawn)…. I work I’n the voluntary sector (public funding) but I do not get a government pension.

The banks, they were the poster boys for the private sector weren’t they? Great productivity there. Good man Seanie. Both public and private have their workhorses and donkeys. No offence to donkeys…

Really? And what is German productivity per hour worked? The last time I checked there was no difference between Ireland and Germany (in fact Irish productivity was higher) so I am not so sure they get more done than the Irish.

I meant to say 50+

increasing government spending increases employment in the private sector, ibec and construction federation etc or are they talking through their. ……..!!

Absolute nonsense. Government does not create employment through spending. Every Euro of government spending is a Euro taken through tax from somewhere else and employment lost somewhere else. Either that or it is a Euro borrowed from future income and we see where that got us all.

I think what can be taken from this is that your arrogance is seriously misplaced as you clearly have no clue of what you are talking about.

Moan moan moan

Well done. Great comeback.

David. You’re trying to sound like an expert on public service practices but you’re failing miserably. What you said about nurses not having the same “problems with overtime” as others and being regimented us blatantly untrue. Unless you know nurses in every hospital in the country, there is no way you could generalise like this as practices between hospitals can vary enormously.

Ah David, I’d have to check with some friends who are gardai to get the exact details but just imagine if they’re chasing a joyrider through some narrow backroads, they’re hardly going to say “woa time to clock off there David, off we go”. If they apply for overtime, big if, they’ve earned it. Its a similar situation for firefighters, if they get overtime they earn it. There was an article in the Irish Independent earlier this week discussing paramedics in Kerry who had to work shifts up to 25 hours without a break as there was nobody to relieve them, IF they get paid overtime they damn well earned it. I spoke to a colleague today who went to a parent teachers meeting last week, she said she didn’t get out untill after 10 that evening and was knackered, so were the teachers, but they wouldn’t get a cent for that. As for the nurses, “they are not usually bound to the same over time problems”, are you for real? You’ve just heard how nurses work beyond their shifts for no pay, and this is common. Premium rates are to be cut in the health Service so this means overtime, shift rate and unsociable hours so the next time you take a loved one to A&E at 3 am the nurse you see will probably be getting a flat rate, try telling her how you feel. One other thing david, if you think the Public Service has such an easy time why don’t you join, surely you can’t be afraid of the work, doing the work of 3 or 4 people, and the money, well it’ll be very little I’m afraid, think less than €30, a lot less. If you think we have it easy, join us and you’ll see?

Dunno where you got the impression teachers only work school hours..
What about lesson plans, correcting, keeping an eye out for student welfare, reports, exam prep and parent teacher meetings (I’m probably missing loads)..

They don’t get all of that done on the premises in the allotted hours. It goes home with them, where their hours are not defined or paid, but certainly used.

Where are you getting your info on “typical” contracts from, Alan? I suspect that these are your own opinions and nothing more….for instance how can you try to establish a “typical” contract for a group of worker which covers civil servants and politicians, but also gardai, firemen and nurses (who are on 37.5 hour wk-my info is based on facts, by the way. I’m a nurse).

sucked in by f.fails old mantra, leave the public sector and private sector fight it out while the government of the do their utmost to squeeze every spare cent out of everyone.

You’ll never compete with public sector moaners. Too many of them. They all think they’re worth the wage they’re on too(specifically civil service). That’s the fantasy that annoys me. Croke park agreement,, me bollox. More Bertie legacy of just saying yes to everyone, regardless of reality and consequence

Can you explain this comment further Mark, what exactly do you think an average nurse gets paid or a hospital porter, maybe you’ll enlighten us and tell us what you’ll pay them in your new world? Why do you compare us to other countries when our cost of living here is nothing like other countries, in Northern Ireland for example a GP visit costs a tiny fraction of what it does down here as does any prescribed medication.
As for the private sector, when they deal with the HSE I’ve seen prices treble, they have no problem taking a “holier than thou attitude” and preaching to the rest of us while at the same time ripping of the exchequer, that’s all of us.