Feel the same paul, but we live in a democracy and people have a right to practise their faith even if they appear deluded

Living in a democracy and banning an organisation that promotes hate and has committed some of the worst crimes against humanity are not mutually exclusive. People can believe whatever nonsense they like but facilitating and sanctioning such a hateful industry is reprehensible.

Paul…you can’t ban us from believing. Nor can you ban the church. I get that the IEC pisses people off because it shows that thousands are still prepared to come out and show their dedication to their faith – but grow up. We do live in a democracy and people aren’t gonna stop believing because you say it’s a better idea. I love my faith and I think it makes me a better human being. I also love the church and have no intention of leaving. God bless… :)

Peter, read my comments again before blindly responding (although I get the feeling blindly responding is your forte). I said you can believe whatever nonsense you like but I don’t think its right that that criminal organisation that you follow promoting itself in Ireland, especially considering the mayhem it has caused.

And how does faith make you a better human being? Do you really think that believing in god makes you some how better than those who don’t? I wonder did the 911 attackers think their extremely strong faith made them better human beings as they flew into the twin towers and brought misery & suffering to thousands of innocent people?

@Brian I’ll stand corrected. Yes even without religion I guess I’d be the same person in relation to goodness and kindness.
Also for my volunteer work yes I’d probably still do it but have found through association with the Legion I am able to gain more access to nursing homes and hospices etc.

Although no physical evidence I, like many others, have the blind faith that God exists and there is a heaven mainly because I have lost relatives and think if this is it then what’s the point to life and how sad it must be that when we die that’s it.
Call me delusional or even stupid but for me it makes me feel secure knowing that one day I’ll be united with my parents again.

Paula, I see were you’re coming from with regards to saying that the thoughts of meeting loved ones in the afterlife is comforting, but unfortunately that doesn’t mean that it’s true and it’s probably fairer to say “hoping” rather than “knowing” when it comes to being united with your parents again, because at the end of the day nobody knows what actually happens and there’s not a single shread of evidence to make us think that anything does. Personally I find that not believing in an afterlife puts more value on my own and other peoples lives, as I see this amazing life opportunity as being our only one.

Also, I may think that you’re being deluded by religion and it’s hard to argue that you’re not when you use the term “blind faith”, but I do not have any reason to think that you’re stupid. Many intelligent people have been and continue to be deluded by religion, it’s amazing what people believe when they’re indoctrinated at a young age.

I believe in the church and the teaching of the church. I’m an intelligent person and it’s easy to see that once you get beyond any single church teaching there is a fundamental principle of love and care for people involved. This has not been warped by the hierarchy, this has been warped by media and people unhappy with the church into something it’s not. While evil acts have been committed by members of the church, people seem to forget that the members of the church are what make it. Not only the hierarchy. However your idea of “free thinking” is not new. I’ll stick with the church – I’m free already – despite what you may think.

@ Adam – I do not believe in the church and its teachings. I’m an intelligent person and it’s easy to see that once you get beyond Religion, there’s still a fundamental principle of love and care that humans have for each other, you can be good without god you know.

Go away

I’m 24 years old and volunteering with the Eucharistic Congress. I’m glad to see something in some way positive about the catholic faith on journal.

There are upwards of 2000 volunteers working with the IEC – most of them are below 35. Many of the attendees are under this age as well. An alarming number are also young men and women who have begun religious life.

The Church – as I think is becoming obvious, is well and truly alive in Ireland and around the world. Many young people love their faith and care little for the treatment it gets in the general media.

Actually think and apply reason to your beliefs please, and get back to me. Then I’ll have respect for people who profess some sort of faith. A blind thumbs down doesn’t equate to that respect.

@Paul Murphy…My beliefs are perfectly reasoned. If you would explain?

What exactly should we “distance ourselves” from, why should we, and why should I care about your opinion paul?

Adam you should “care” about my opinion because in a discussion the starting point is respecting the starting point of each side without instantly getting defensive.

In my opinion, all people of any faith should be distancing themselves from religious views because they blind the believer from reason, science, imagination and the search for knowledge based on fact and logic, self reflection within a vast and amazing universe, and cloud opinions and a sense of self based on this blindness.

Please feel free to explain the reasoning you have applied to your faith and the conclusions you have come to by yourself.

“The Church – as I think is becoming obvious, is well and truly alive in Ireland and around the world. Many young people love their faith and care little for the treatment it gets in the general media.”

The church is truly alive in Ireland? I disagree with this. Dwindling attendance numbers in churches countrywide and the quickly disappearing priest population in Ireland point to something else. Also how can you disparage the “treatment” the church gets in Ireland when all they are showing it as is the corrupt and scandal filled organisation that it is. To not absorb and use these reports as part of the reasoning you apply to your religious beliefs is not, in my opinion, applying that reason correctly.

My faith does not distance me from science, reason or imagination. I am a filmmaker and artist and two of my best friends are devout Catholics who are an artist and an astrophysics graduate. I’m constantly amazed by this line that people come out with about science and faith being incompatible. Do people not realise that some of the greatest art in history was sponsored by the Church and the Big Bang Theory was developed by a Jesuit priest??

I would agree that the church is experiencing a change and renewal right now but I see more priests joining the seminary all the time…three of my own friends went in this year. I’m considering that particular path myself.
There will be no shortage of priests because there is no shortage of seminarians…
and there is definitely no shortage of young Catholics…I see it all the time.

An astrophysicist that truly and whole heartedly believes in transubstantiation? And that Mary was a virgin? And how do they stand in the theory of evolution?
Without believing in these and many other bullet points of belief within the roman catholic Church I don’t believe anyone can say they are roman catholic. And just to point out, these are not “symbolic” of anything, the bible never states that. You have to seriously and completely believe that a wafer changes into part of a first century Jew. And yes it has to be boiled and distilled down that far.

Religion should most definitely be respected as an important part of human history and I don’t think this history can be understood without it. It has certainly played its part beautiful literature, music, architecture and art. At the time of some of the theories you mentioned were proposed science and religious did certainly have a stormy relationship, and it was cultural taboo to be without faith, so don’t be too all assuming on how religious these early scientist actually were in their day to day lives. Although that is not to say they weren’t. It’s not up to us to know that.

But I think religion should now be treated as just that, just an important part of the human story.

We have progressed so far beyond the reaches of understanding that is present in these ancient books that we must look more and more forward logically and scientifically then let them drag us back.

Also please state the conclusion of the reasoning you applied to your faith, as the person proclaiming a belief the burden of proving this belief is on you, not me. All I ask was why you believe. Straight forward question.

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

I simply believe. I’m not particularly interested in proving my belief to you and I do not need to justify it. I celebrate the belief I share with many other people. A belief in something more than science can measure. I actually cannot explain this to you cos you need to have faith to understand it.
I’m not out to ban atheism or non-belief and if you don’t want to believe…it’s cool. Just don’t shove it down my throat as logic and science. because that’s not what it is.

Paul, you say that “all people of any faith should be distancing themselves from religious views”???
What does that mean? So a person of faith should distance themselves from their faith? Is that what you are trying to say? It sounds non-sensical.
In a free society people have a right to practice their religion. 20,000 people have come to ireland to do that. Go ahead and question but you are telling people what they should or should not do. They are causing no harm to you.
Btw lots of religious institutions, schools, universities etc teach science, reason, imagination, knowledge and lots of other things.
The catholic church accepts evolution, the big bang theory and all the other stuff of reason.
You must live in a closed world.

Couldn’t have said it better. I could start a list of religious institutions in the area of science, art & education but I could really go on. Paul, you can yell and shout all you like but religion and faith aren’t going anywhere & ppl like you should just not attempt to impose your moronic opinions on everyone.
…anyway. Day 3 of the Congress – I’m off to help all these poor deluded religious people find their way in the rds! Lol. :)

Sigh.

My calm approach gets called “yelling and shouting” when all I ask a person of faith is “why do you believe?”. Asking why isn’t having a moronic opinion.

Despite shrugging off the question by saying things like “i simply believe” The burden of proof to explain why I should believe what you believe is still upon you, for example if I told you that I believed in the loch ness monster you would ask me for evidence to back that up. You don’t have to provide that evidence as I have made the statement and all you have asked is why I believe in the loch ness monster. Therefore the burden of proof to convince you is on me. The same system applies to any similar statement. As I said What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

Again, simply saying that you could list tons of points but choose not to isn’t having a good discussion. It’s blindly following a system that you’ve never sat down and really thought about.

Yes of course I think “all people of faith should distance themselves from religious views”. And it is not nonsense. As I explained I think that people need to move away from that faith and the religious views within that faith. And i mean that about any religious views.I find religion harmful and detrimental to the human race.

And no, plenty of religious institutions do not promote all aspects of science etc. Even look at the laws of Islam and especially the legislation that religious lobbyists in the states are constantly trying to push into law.

Of course I appreciate the work that some priests and some parishes do on a local level. But these priests and parishes are still a part of this corrupt and morally bankrupt organisation, and to try and say that they are not is again being blinded by that organisation.

To quote Christopher Hitchens ;

“Gullibility and credulity are considered undesirable qualities in every department of human life — except religion”

Paul. You didn’t innocently ask ‘why do you believe?’. You alleged that faith leads to blindness in regards to reason, science and the search for knowledge. Adam responded by correctly stating that science and religion are not incompatible. You then ‘shrugged off’ the response by querying whether scientists believed in particular elements of Catholic teaching rather than dealing with the refutation of your initial argument regarding religiously inspired blindness. Are you seriously asking if Copernicus or Georges Lemaitre are actually men of faith? I think you are being disingenuous if you are. It seems to me you should be providing evidence for your statement regarding religion as an impediment to science too. You could try Galileo but that was 400 years ago and he got his science wrong.

It seems from some of your other statements that you would like every religious person you meet to provide you with a full and reasoned outline of why they hold their beliefs. I would imagine that most religious people accept that aspects of their beliefs are outside reason. Or perhaps they just think that a seemingly well read person like yourself would be able to research the reasonable bases for belief in God. The fine tuning of the universe is one basis. The rational and reasoned statement ‘nothing comes from nothing’ and the existence of an absolute beginning of our universe means that belief in a creator is currently a more reasonable theory than anything else cosmologists have come up with (e.g. Multiverses).

“My subjective, metaphysical view, that the universe would make more sense if a divine will operated at this level to design the universe in a purposeful way, can be neither denied not proved by scientific means. It is a matter of belief or ideology how we choose to think about the universe, and it will make no difference how we do our science” – Owen Gingerich

Well I’m not religious but I have the upmost respect for my grandfather who cycled up from Wexford to be there only 82 years of age… At least have some respect for the people attending

There is a train from Wexford… free for pensioners as well.

Why on earth did he cycle up?!

Why is it that people take the piss out of the elderly ones but not the several thousand African ones or the young ones?

I don’t think he left them out – I presume they’re covered by ‘deluded’.

I made a snide comment about somebody’s bad weave and hideous mu mu and it got removed….and before you say it, it was not racist, just styleist!

Thanks – I’ll be sure to tell the rest of us…because we care what you think. ;)

God and Santa…….
Ah sure, say a prayer for me anyway

And I’m just a bad egg…..

what gives you that idea… : /

Kathryn & Adam Peter – I have to admire your faith and believe me when I say that I respect that and will naturally defend your rights to express it in any medium you wish. Equally, what you hear and read will naturally not sit well with your beliefs at times but these aside, the issue at hand here is that not all practitioners and believers behaved as some did – of course not. The issue relates to a wide diversity of difficulties within the Catholic Church that have become apparent in the last 20 years, ranging from abuse, accountability and the unhealthy situation in this nation where church and state were one. It’s having justice for those that experienced injustice (a core tenet of most faiths), removal of any church and state connection and prevention of abuse that total power brought…. amongst a myriad of other issues.

Not to throw the cat among the pigeons, but expect growing criticism in the next few years. The Church to many appears to be out of step and has lost its way – and inevitably this happens to all organisations that are strictly controlled and administered. For example, the concept of silencing a cleric is repulsive and alien in this day and age, but it is still practiced. Blind faith, where everything is taken as being correct and questioning is discouraged is unhealthy in any social grouping – but if it is a tenet of a faith, then by all means practice away. But please don’t get upset when somebody poses awkward questions.

Here’s a little something of interest…or maybe something to make us all think: http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

@ Silent Bob

I believe in the teaching of the Church – but not just out of blind faith…I also am intellectually convinced that it is a true teaching. At it’s core is a message of love. Despite any abuse by clergy in the past – that will not change. I do not hate gays. I actually don’t know of anyone who has a “hatred” for gay people.
In relation to your webpage link – Thanks but no thanks.

A lot of the negative comments here just seem asinine and targeted at a general disparaging of religious people. In all fairness – it’s not as if we’re all suddenly going to turn around tomorrow and decide – God doesn’t exist, time to wrap it up folks! Yes. Believe it or not…We really do believe in this! Get used to it because we’ve been around for 2000 years and we’re not going anytime soon.
Vocations are not actually down…they’re up. There are more young people in the church than ever and in about 15-30 years time the majority of Ireland will most likely be very Catholic. I’m not being super optimistic here – again, I see this happening and the media just don’t want to show it.

Also – the idea of the church being a criminal organisation is laughable; they are one of the largest humanitarian leaders in the world. Don’t talk to me about logic and facts til you bring some to the table!

Can’t wait to see you & the other mayo ppl!! :)