Treaty passed, that’s it…back to normality now and doing what they have done the past year….f**k all.

What’s your point?

That they don’t forget it.

@donnacha foley … It’s a great point.

The EU flag?!

That flag you speak of is no longer a flag. It’s a toilet seat cover designed specifically to keep european bureaucratic bums warm.

Why didn’t Michael Noonan vote?

Because hes in the US at the cloak and dagger Elite meeting known as Bilderberg. Strange how quiet the press are being about his dodgy delaing with the Worlds “Elite”

Noonan is there with Peter Sutherland ( Goldman Sachs ) and paul Gallagher ( Senior Counsel) All very hush hush,shshshsh keep it quiet , no one is meant to know !.

So am I :-(

Me too… :(

Goodbye Ireland. I’ll mourn you once the anger passes.

Sounds like a patriot alright.
Patriotism before prosperity.

No-one is denying prosperity you tool, this discussion is about the route taken!

me too ::)

How come you can call yourself a patriot when you wanted to spite the countries nose to save its face?
You wanted to choose a situation of uncertainty in the strange hope it would somehow lead to a government who clearly have no negotiating skills forcing a re-negotiation of bank debt on the back foot (if youre No vote won)
and committing the citizens of this state to extreme austerity when the necessary funds cannot be accessed without huge interest rates.

Sigh David Harris, you just don’t get it do you…..for many people it’s not always about money, for some…. (myself included)….it’s about a notion of nationhood and our right to self determination.
Sure we got a vote but all these treaties are dressed up as some harmless economic policies and the true underlying facts about further and further secession of our rights as a sovereign nation to a regime which will break all countries and it’s people to achieve this federal union that a minority within Europe want.

I find it disgusting that I, a proud Irishman, should be coerced and threatened under the pretence of economic wealth into a union of people i share no common culture, language or empathy with.
The EU means nothing to me, I have no allegiance to their flag or their federal union..in fact I despise it.

@ Dave Harris
It is not all about the bank debt , it is all about a sense of self worth and national pride,
@ dermot Mc Loughlin
So very well said. I cannot understand how it is that people do not realise how deeply we feel let down, it is a deep hurt , that Nationwide people just do not get what they voted for.

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn

This article was written by Robert Waghorne
BTW I am not a member or have any allegiance to any political parties…

Thats just xenophobic paranoia.
This country has been part of Europe since Ireland joined the EEC in 1973. (and has had great benefit from this) why are you getting so upset about it now? If you live in some fairy tale where Ireland is a super nation that does its own thing and the others can go stuff themselves, you’d be right. Youre not, get over it.

Ireland is still a gorgeous country filled with fabulous people, ok we’ve fallen on hard times but this will pass if we look to the future and dont give up on what the great Irish people can achieve

Dave Harris
You just do not get it. It is not xenophobic … It is sorrow at what we have lost !
But this is a democracy and it is funny that the political parties who fought so hard against each other down through the years ,have arrived at this point to finally join forces to accept this treaty…
Greed !
Chat again soon,

For me the whole route the EU is taking is the wrong one, they’re pushing the people of Europe along this path, paying as little regard for the well being of all involved as they did when implementing the Euro.
I’m pro-EU, I’m a No voter, I believe in a specific type of integration within the EU, just not the type that’s being pushed at the minute. It offers nothing for the people of Europe.

Sorry, “no supporter”, not “no voter”

Far from xenophobic Dave chap…I love Europe for it’s culture, architecture, diversity, it’s people and it’s history but as a continent of sovereign states not as some politically orchestrated superstate which is being built up on faux economic stability or the half promise of economic stability and all these treaties are based on economics – the one thing which binds us all…but tell me, do you really believe a European wide referendum on full amalgamation would pass?
Many many people still hold onto their national belief and allegiance to their own country, their own flag and not just here but continent wide and are unwilling to surrender it all under one flag, one state and one central government.

All these treaties are stepping stones to the masterplan of a minority but are never scripted as such.

And in preparation for the only argument the FG/EU loyalists have to offer – red thumbs……I fully understand your passion and desire to commit this country to foreign control, you were always a unionist party, both in Irish and European politics but sadly for you, you’re the minority..:P
Toddle pip.

And my euroscepticism is not something new Dave, I have been blessed with it since the Nice treaty.

HaHa very good!
Pity Endas team will give the Germans a walkover tho.

Hope he put on his shinpads. He’ll need them for the kicking he’s going to get in his next election.

You forgot the Third king Noonan but he cant stand with them as he’s in the States (at are expense )getting his instructions at the Bilderberg meeting .The media including The Journal dont want to tell you this though .

Funny the first mention of growth out of them wasn’t until Hollande brought it up, I’d swear the idea never entered their heads before it and all of a sudden they are like “Whoa yeah, Stability AND Growth if we vote yes. /sigh

Kenny is in full agreement with Merkel. They are of the same ideology… Kenny knows that neither himself nor any of his friends will ever have to suffer any AUSTERITY. He has his wages assured and then when he is ready ti retire hel will go off with is inflated pension.

Those two clowns couldn’t negotiate themselves out of a paper bag , All they said was sound bites and has any one ever noyiced that when Kenny is trying to be serious his voice gets bigger, I can not bear to hear him , he is a funny little man.

And who do you have to negotiate that particular obstacle?

A school teacher accompanied by a fart in the wind. Eamon and Enda do not negotiate, they remove their pants first and hope for the best.

We voted right the first time.So the answer to your question is No.

Well said!!

I don’t get the argument that a “no” vote would have given us a stronger hand to play. Unlike Lisbon, we didn’t have a veto over this, it would have gone ahead without us. Secondly, have you not heard of the phrase “beggars can’t be choosers”? Surely if we voted no, then by the end of next year if we were unable to go back to the markets and were in dire need of some ESM funding, we’d be in a much weaker position as we’d be desperate for funding from somewhere.
At least this way now we can say “right lads, we’re in, we’ve done everything asked of us so far, so give us something in return”.

“Right lad’s we’re in” is what we have been saying all along and what have we got ? Obviously, if we don’t get a second bailout from the ESM, if required, we don’t pay our bank debt and put the money to use in the economy instead. A NO vote would mean the government could say we will have a re-run if we get the following guarantees……., as was done with other EU treaties.

As the No Side frequently reiterated during the campaign, the tide is changing in Europe regarding the need for growth, with the election of Hollande, so we have more allies this time. Also with banks in Spain and Italy teetering, and with Greece screwed, it’s clear that the original policy of letting Ireland shoulder the burden of recapitalising the banks alone to prevent contagion hasn’t worked. So to say that Ireland playing ball hasn’t worked so far, doesn’t mean it won’t work now that the game has changed.
Had we said no, we would have been in a weakened position going into these new negotiations as we wouldn’t have the moral footing we now have.

Also they wouldn’t have gotten any new guarantees in the event of a re-run, because as I said before, we didn’t have a veto on this one- it goes ahead without us. Basically we didn’t have them in a headlock this time. The only way we could have had them in a headlock would have been if we couldn’t go back to the markets and it was about to look like we were going to default, i.e if we were banjaxed, but that scenario would hurt Ireland more than the EU. I don’t know why you would want to banjax yourself to improve your negotiating position. That makes no sense.

The only concessions we got was a reduction in the interest rate on the backs of the Greeks. I believe the new mood you speak about will not happen and Hollande will soon be brought to heel by the financial markets. I certainly don’t want to banjax the country, if it’s possible to banjax it any more than has already happened. The only way for the mood to change is for people to demonstrate that they’ve had enough and a NO vote would contribute to this. Politicians are bought and paid for and will change nothing unless people force them to, which is happening to some extent in Greece. The process seems to be you vote for change, Ireland FG / Lab, France Hollande but nothing changes. Therefore a NO vote would threaten the established order. The fear factor of not being able to borrow in the future is overstated. OK we have a deficit but government debt is low so we just refuse to pay the stupid foreign banks and bondholders and either reduce the deficit (harsh,) or try borrow to fund it. The second option may not be too difficult, as we wouldn’t be saddled with huge private sector bank debt. The EU are doing us no favours and it is now a far cry from the vision of Kohl, Mitterand and Delors. It will be interesting to see the results of the elections in Greece on June 17th. At present, an anti-memorandum party SYRIZA is leading in the polls and most people agree that if this party comes to power, Greece will be out of the Euro and into the unknown. That’s how far people here have been pushed.

You see Labour that high?not so sure.

I will put money on it right here and now, that come the next general election, a bank debt deal will still not have happened!

FF are claiming this referendum as a victory for FF. They are probably right…

I think that FF will have solidified core but they were only ever going to truly love them.

Micheal Martin will have damaged himself in the debates though with Female voters. He goes absolutely ape when a woman challenges him in a debate. Irish people don’t like the roaring and shouting style of debate. For all the talk of FF doing well, they are still on 17% of the vote, no change from the wipeout of the General election.

Stabilizing in the Emergency ward but there will be years of revelations and trails over their party members. Look at how many are in court, being investigated by Guards/Fraud squad in last 2 months alone.

It also looks like the DPP will be pressing for charges to be made against the leading FF political name, who tried to extort 100k from a senior civil servant via black mail.

I think that the Lab. party will hold a hardcore vote, probably around 8-9%. They hold it for a long time, but it will be all down hill from here.

I’m certain that their will be many defections from Lab/FF/FG/some indo’s to a new party in next few years.

This does not change the Irish constitution one iota. Stop peddling something that is blatantly untrue. Respect the wishes of a decisive, significant sensible majority…

The only one lying here is you. It has to be incorporated in line with our constitution you clown, at least know the facts!

The ref com made it clear. While changes need to be made to national law, it does not have any bearing on constitution. You’ve fought for an argument you clearly do not understand. And I’m the clown? Don’t follow blindly. At least inform yourself…

thats it reilly, sock it to the pesants. proud of you, we all are back in hq! keep peddling the manure

Jaysus, do you even know what you voted for?

Thirtieth Amendment of the Constitution (Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union) Bill 2012,[2] and proposes to insert a new clause in Article 29 of the Constitution.

Article 29.4:[2]

10° The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State.

The constitution is changed by the referendum result. We only have referendums when the constitution has to be changed or “amended”. The power to rule Ireland comes from the people (and the trinity but they tend not to vote due to the fact that they are fictional characters) and we have to be asked, as often as is needed until we get the right answer, for that power to be given to an outside body.

come on reilly, theyre saying diarmuid is telling the truth, peddle some more sh**e, come on, you know lying is all part of our philosophy!

Don’t even waste your time lads and lassie, when Reilly speaks, everyone must step aside as he purveys wisdom and truth far beyond his years. Only he knows the facts in this instance!

Hope you are on oxygen

This referendum simply adds a clause to the constitution enabling the government to ratify the ESM. It’s contents (the treaty’s) is not added to the constitution. This fact was clarified on this very site during the questions and answers session with Kevin Feeney. Can Journal please confirm? However Diarmuid, knowing now your politics its no surprise to find you feel you know better than a high court judge. Censored, if you’re gonna quote, get it right..

Adding words and sentences = no change?
The judge was answering the question “is the full text of the treaty added to the constitution?”, it isn’t but there is a change, a new section is added. You said there’s no change to the bunreacht which is clearly not true, you half understand a comment from the judge and then you accuse others of peddling shite

“This referendum simply adds a clause to the constitution enabling the government to ratify the ESM. ”
Really O’Reilly??

Tomas O Beag…
I would like to assume that your comment is not disdainful. After all.
If it had not been for the financial assistance of Germany our country would be in very poor shape economically.

Stray Mutt
Compared to…….Now ?

Why are we paying bank debt that’s not ours worse even unsecured ?!

@Stray no offense my bank manager didn’t me he loaned me money which i pay back with interest.Likewise Germany loaned Ireland….well you know the rest.

Susie Chester…
Compared to some countries whose people have absolutely nothing.
The greed and negative attitude of some people in this country is contemptible.
We have a country which has everything going for it… If only a little more optimism were to prevail.

“Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither”

— BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

is our minister for finance is at a bilderberg meeting in the usa?, check out this list. http://www.bilderbergmeetings.org/participants2012.html if he is there, on whose behalf?

stray mutt is right, they gave us loads of money, but enda and lucinda are after taking an awful bating from frau merkel, poor endas back is fecked from the saddle

When are people going to realise the banking debt is not our main problem. Yes its a pain in the ass, yes its not ours, no we shouldn’t be paying it back but its less than 25% of out debt, >75% is paying public services, social welfare etc. I tried to get an answer from anyone on the no side to tell me where we would get the money to pay for the 75% and I always just got “somewhere”. We need more than “somewhere” as an answer when no money affects so many citizens at the moment who are unemployed or reduced income etc. Imagine the poverty if we had no social welfare due to no one lending to us as the tax payer could not absorb anymore tax increases to pay for money at high interest rates that we would be forced too. If people wanted to take the pain fully now and rebuild then yes the no would have been the way but to think massive cuts would not apply is ridiculous and who wants either.

Ah there’s Eugene either after falling for or peddling more crap! €40 billion of our current soveriegn debt profile is bank debt. That’s alot of money Eugene. As regards where we would find the money and as a complete counter argument I sum up below as written in previous post:

However, lets deal in real life consequences of Yes v No. I am an advocate of living within ones means. But that’s not what we are being asked in this treaty, as much as that is being conveyed to us. We are not being asked whether we wish to live within our means, we are being asked whether we would like some unelected bureaucrats to have the right to determine our countries spending, borrowing and investment plans. Let’s not forget if we do borrow excessively, this treaty proposes to fine us. Further financial burdens seem to be the cure for financial problems and strains in Europe at the moment, so I suppose that aspect is hardly surprising. Quite a number of people have now stated that we will have no access to the ESM should we vote no. The IMF, under government duress have even backtracked. I would propose to the section of the electorate still undecided, to assess some truths in the cold light of day and not to get sucked in by the scaremongering and spin embellished so frequently by Fine Gael. If the past four years have taught us anything it is how unforgiving and tunnel visioned both Europe and the ECB are when protecting its own interests and more importantly cash. We got a high interest loan (not a bailout) to protect Europe, not because of some philanthropic notions on the part of Merkozy and the ECB. They have broken every rule, gone against every moral fibre of their being and pushed Europe into the territory of a financial dictatorship to protect its interests and cash, whilst trampling on democracy in the process. Are we now supposed to believe that the EU and ECB, who at this stage have hundreds of billions tied up in our future and economy are going to ensure they never see a cent of that back because of spite? The same bureaucrats that tried to make a tidy profit off hiking up % decimal points on our loans, are now willing to walk away from a few hundred billion because of a democratic wish on the part of our sovereign nation? The Europe we all live in and have had too much experience of in the last four years may not do democracy or morals, but they most certainly do numbers and by God are we worth more to them by voting down this un-necessary and morally insulting treaty. Please Vote No on May 31st.

@Diarmaid, yes its a hell of a lot of money but again people need to realise there is other problems why we are in the mess we are in. At the end of the day the people have voted and they have agreed this is the way they want the country to go after weighing up the arguments for a yes and a no and everyone has to respect the peoples decision.

Eugene, the issue with bank debt isn’t it’s relative size. When it’s added to sovereign debt, the combined debt is unsustainable and unserviceable.
Sooner or later, Ireland will have to default on part of it’s debt.
To date, the ECB has held a gun to the head of Irelands feeble and incompetent politicans. First of all ensuring that the Irish state took full responsibility for this debt. Secondly, ensuring Ireland did not repudiate this debt.
Ultimately, the only options left open to Ireland are does it default on legimately acquired sovereign debt, bank legacy sovereign debt or what quantity of the two.

Eugene maybe you need to realise we are in this situation because of the bank debit?

@Sean. I know where you are coming from on the size of the debt but we may get it removed from sovergn debt or get a write down if it goes into the ESM which is being hinted at for Spain but we do have other issues such as very generous welfare payments which are not capped going into a household. Some people have never contributed into the system and yet expect everything from the tax payer. What really boiled my blood was last year I gave someone a job and they decided going on the beer was more important so I had to let them go as it happended a few times and the attitude was as sure I’ll get the dole so. I have someone else now who is great but he was self employed for over 30 years and was not entitled to 1 cent in welfare and he is working. It opened my eyes greatly on attitudes in this country. @ Kerry, yes we are in this situation because of the bank debt but also other things, we have a public service that is ridiculous in size. I have to deal with something like 13 Government Agencies. Some of these agencies do amazing work but do we need all of them when similar fields. Again social welfare is nuts with the dole, childrens allowance, lone parent allowance etc. The whole point of social welfare is to give you a hand when you are down yet some (and I will say again some) have no intention of doing anything as they know the benefits outway the wages they would get with their qualifications etc.

@ Eugene, we are singing off the same hymnsheet with respect to the excessive size and cost of the state. Also, the functionally corrupting influence of the state on our economy.
I find Cicero’s quote is as relevant today as was 2000 years ago.

“The national budget must be balanced. The public debt must be reduced; the arrogance of the authorities must be moderated and controlled. Payments to foreign governments must be reduced. If the nation doesn’t want to go bankrupt, people must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Readers don’t always appreciate the significance of-
“the arrogance of the authorities”
or why this is an impediment to the effective governance of a nation.
In the context of our own crisis, the same political class that have driven our economy over a cliff are now pretending to have solutions to the crisis they were complicate in creating. They do not and never will.
When the US slipped into a deep recession in 1920, the Harding administration response is very much contrary to modern orthodoxy. They cut government spending by more than half, pushed up interest rates and allowed failing banks to fail. Within two years their economy was back in recovery and unemployment had fallen to prerecession levels.
What Harding & Coolidge had done was to take their hands completely off the steering wheel and allowed their economy to repair itself. They resisted the urge to micromanage. A particularly unarrogant approach to economic governance.

I agree somewhat with you on welfare. Fact is though, while we crib about people getting an extra few bob a week, we ignore corrupt bankers, politicians and wealthy and powerful individuals, who not alone are not being prosecuted, but in most instances are getting a lot more than €190 a week from us. And they arrogantly draw this money whilst after ruining the country and now lecture us? On top of that, don’t you think it would be a lot more in our line to change the social welfare system and the way it’s employees operate. I have a family member who returned from the uk nearly a year ago with two small babies and is still waiting on social payments after paying tax their whole life. Why? Cause they are being bounced from this person to that person, getting hung up on, getting spoken down to, being given the third degree. They have had to fill out numerous copies of the same forms because they keep getting lost. God forgive me but I don’t blame people for over claiming sometimes, the way they’re treated and the hoops an Irish citizen has to jump through forces them to. What we should be saying is lets turn our social welfare system into a professional, decent, respectful dept. I guarantee you fraud would be obliterated if we did that!

Eugene + Sean+Diarmuid
Great arguements , there is so much waste and lack of empathy in all the government departments, Health and Social welfare the two main depts with which people have most dealings ! The unhelpful attitudes of some of the counter staff could do with a crash course in how to interact and look after people . It is not an individuals fault that they may be that clerk’s twetieth person with the same query on any given day… I was a public servant and I came across colleagues who just did not care … the thing is it made life easier to do the job correctly and professionally than not to do it or do it half heartedly .. Maybe this is something that the gov could concentrate on and improve. Keep up the good work lads , we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

Poll

That was my reasoning for Lisbon. The EU is great for human rights and equality and the European Courts of Justice are useful too. Not too sure about financial matters though.

Why do you want a pole? Want to dance?

Mcbab I could end up turning tricks yet.. Don’t think id earn much :-P

If we didn’t, then they’d be unemployed also, and then the number would stand at 400,002

I’m sure there out of 400, 000 people we could find two more suitable to replace them.

very true. should demand it

Donncha Foley
Why can’t you just giveit a rest …
Is that an Irish name you have Denis ?

That argument was being put forward by the Namawinelake Blog, Declan Ganley to a certain extent and also by David McWilliams not so much by Sinn Fein and the Left side of the debate. In a way it seem to be putting it about that we are very important to the European project. While we are a vital part of the project I think our role was being well overstated maybe it was illusions of granduer that we had about our own self importance in the world circa 2006, Personally I could not see how voting down the proposal could have brought a better deal as it was dependant on too many other moving parts aligning themselves together in the right order to enable such a scenario. First of these was a government decision to stop paying back debts in the here in now a very unlikely scenario. The writing the rules into legislation was a much more compelling reason for voting down the treaty but that is “fuzzy” stuff which would pass over many voters heads (and it did I would imagine as it only formed a very small part of the debate). I think when most people looked at it they took the view that if one is going to try and get a deal you go in with your strongest hand and if that involved backing the Fiscal Compact so be it.

A little cynical, but possibly a little smarter than simply voting yes this time.

@Susie it’s over be nice the no side lost mores the pity for Ireland but be gracious in defeat.Accept it like i have and bite back the bitterness it achieves nothing.

Dead right, Seán. McWilliams used the analogies of the neighbourhood and the poker game. The first might have worked but it depended on the poker game…the 3 minutes are long since up and we’ve got Dougal playing a blinder

Some people are very angry on this thread. I feel that they are aiming it at the wrong people. The “No” side are blaming the “Yes” side. The people that received voting cards in the post that didn’t bother to move their big asses off their sofa’s are to blame here. Not the “Yes” side!

Both the “No” and “Yes” sides voted, the “couldn’t be arsed” side didn’t. Aim your anger at them. They’re the ones that’ll bitch and complain no matter what way things work out for Ireland. These individuals should be banned from voting in future elections etc. Their vote should be taken from them and never given back. That’s what I’d do immediately.

Sheila that happens in Italy and Brazil. You don’t vote a couple of times in a row they delete your name from the register, you can get it back but you have to jump through some bureaucratic hoops. Proper order. The Ozzies fine non-voters.

@Paul

Proper order! So many millions in the world have not got a vote and it makes both sad and angry that people here, not only have a democratic right to vote but we also had a referendum which many don’t.

The “Yes and No” sides should just try and work together now and get the best for us, for Ireland. Anybody starts screwing with us well then they’ll have us to answer to!

I saw a few people complaining on Facebook that they got removed from the voting register without any notification.. They only found out when they didn’t receive a polling card, granted perhaps they should have checked the register on time, but once you’re registered you’re inclined to believe you’ll stay on the register unless otherwise indicated..

Norman
Ha ha . I hope you mean to be funny !

You’ll most likely be bankrupted by incompetent European politicians instead! (Sorry, couldn’t resist! :-D )

Karl you will be searching a while to find a competent politician, Europe is full of incompetence sure didnt they give kevin cardiff a job. There is only self interest and behind the door deals running throughout Europe. Its hilarious that you have this perception of the European Union being some shining beacon of truth and order. Its just like the dail but with varying languages

OReilly some of what you say is correct as is some of what you say wrong.Some of my friends,neighbours particularily the elderly voted yes out of fear ie their savings and pensions being lost.But sides should be ashamed how they presented the treaty to the population.The fear factor was played on both sides.I voted no i hope i was wrong and the yes side was right we shall see.

Both sides of the campaign were pretty terrible, but I think you’re very wrong in claiming this as a rational vote.

I sort-of agree with placing limits on government spending. This is not the right time to be limiting our options though. And the yes side didn’t even focus on that. It was all about getting more access to funding for the 2nd bailout. That will plunge us even deeper into catastrophe, as our government accesses “cheap” funds and continues to avoid the real and necessary reform that is needed. Not even mentioning the whole austerity/stimulus thing.

You say this doesn’t stack up. I say wait and see before you celebrate.

How much are you getting paid as an adviser to FG because all you speak is bulls*** and its the same party political broadcast over and over? Lets face it no Government here ever again can be held accountable for economic policy and FG and FF were ok with that because they both mess up when in office but this time they can say sure blame Europe they have the money and vote us back in just maybe now just a big maybe we can secure a little bit more money next time.

Predictions for yeah emigration will increase year on year but i guess thats what yous want so yous can say the dole queue is getting smaller. Ireland will be deeper in death in the next ten year as they have to borrow more and more. Our great corporation tax will go just like your sugar and fishing industry. But dont worry people the politicians will have their inflated salary’s and pensions and the rest of us if you are still in the new Republic of Gerland making sure the Germans have cheap food and the new nation of Gerland will be a slave where wages are low Unions are banned and oh the Labour party will be gone like the Greens.

Yes. They can.