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Dublin: 15 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Column: Gaeilge is a part of our culture – how it’s taught matters

The poetry, prose and history of the Irish language should be taken out of the current course and put into a separate, optional subject for advanced students – while “Irish Language” should be taught to every student as a core subject, writes Aodhán Ó Deá.

Aodhán Ó Deá

CAN YOU SPEAK Irish? If not, then why not? The generic response I get from people who can’t speak Irish these days is simply “Well, It’s the way it is taught in school”. Let’s do something about that then! Ninety-three per cent of the country say they would like to see the Irish language preserved or revived (ESRI 2008 research). So it’s safe to say the majority of the country has good will towards the language – then why don’t we do anything to fix what most people identify as the main problem with it – our education system?

Just over two years ago there was huge controversy when Fine Gael proposed making Irish optional for the Leaving Certificate. This proposal gets dragged up any time people talk about the language in our education system. The proposal frustrated me, due both to the lack of research into the damage this could do to the Irish language, and the short-sightedness of such an approach as a solution to a much bigger problem. Fine Gael have since shelved this proposal but what frustrates me more than the proposal itself is the complete lack of action to fix the basic problem. We need to radically reform the way the Irish language is taught in school.

Irish for the Junior & Leaving Certificate

A two-subject approach is needed for the state examinations. Take the poetry, prose and history of the Irish language out of the current course and expand it into a separate, optional subject for advanced students, something akin to Applied Maths. “Irish Language” as a main subject would be taught to every student as a core subject with a renewed emphasis on understanding, speaking and writing the language. This subject would also cover language awareness and should be taught and assessed using the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages.

The effects of simply making Irish optional would be hugely detrimental to the language. The approach of making languages optional is now recognised as a massive mistake in the UK where numbers taking foreign languages halved within 10 years of being made optional. I believe the effect would be even worse here in Ireland. Languages are currently harder to study for at Leaving Certificate level and making it optional will leave Irish competing with subjects which people consider easier, less work or maybe need for college (eg Biology for medicine). At present, Irish is a much longer course with 2 papers, aural and oral exams totalling almost 6 hours of exams compared to most other subjects which are 2 or 3-hour exams. Students would be deterred from learning Irish at a younger age if they knew it was optional later in the curriculum, with a knock-on effect the whole way through the education system. This could lead to Irish no longer being available in every school and people not even having the option to learn their national language if numbers are too low.

Primary Level

We need to take the language out of the classroom with more focus on it being a language as opposed to just a subject. To this effect, a second subject should be taught through Irish in every primary school in the country – Art, Physical Education or Drama are some examples of subjects which could help give people a more enjoyable experience of the language.

Twenty-five per cent of adults surveyed say they would prefer to send their children to Irish-medium education, yet currently just over 4 per cent of all primary schools in Ireland are Gaelscoileanna. Irish-medium education has been incredibly successful – all studies show how Irish medium schools do better in English, Maths and Irish than English speaking schools when socioeconomically matched. We need to fix this imbalance where supply is currently far less than demand.

Attitudes

Finally it’s not all about the way Irish is taught in school. Regularly people tell me they “can’t string a sentence of Irish together.” If you cannot put a sentence together after learning Irish for 14 years in school, you are to blame as much as the education system. There is a mental block where people don’t want to learn the language and blame the education system. However bad your teacher was, it is pretty hard to go through 14 years of any subject and not remember anything at all. As an Irish speaker, I see it every day where so many people have an attitude against the language, where people will call me rude or ignorant for speaking my language in public. What I have found is that people do have Irish- with a small bit of practice it comes back very fast. There are hundreds of courses, conversation circles and events all around the country to help you along. Our own attitude towards the language needs to change as much as our education system.

Last week was Seachtain na Gaeilge - a week where thousands of events are organised all over the country to promote the Irish language. There are lots of new and exciting things happening for the language – particularly at third level – where I learnt most of my own Irish socially. We have seen a huge growth in interest in the language with 26 Irish societies at third level organising weekly events and campaigns. You may be surprised to find out that 1 in 3 people in this country can speak Irish at some level – get out and give it a go! Whether you like the language or not – it is part of who we are. The only language out of 6,700 in the world that we can claim is uniquely ours.

Tá cóip den alt seo ar fáil as Gaeilge ar mo bhlag ag www.aodhanodea.ie

Aodhán Ó Deá works to promote the Irish language at second and third level. His job is co-funded by five different Irish-language organisations and he spends most of his time on the road talking to schools or organising events and campaigns for the language at third level. He blogs at www.aodhanodea.ie.

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Comments (188 Comments)

  • Problem is we teach it as a subject not a language.

    Reply
    • Problem is we teach it at all.
      The billion euro per year we spend on the Irish language could be put to better use.

      Reply
    • PEIG SAYERS í an bean a dún-mharú an Ghaeilge.

      Reply
    • I went through 13 years of schooling, and came out of it with a rudimentary understanding of Irish, probably the best of the Irish i left was in 6th class where the teacher thought the language for the love of it, not just because it was on the sylabus.

      Roll on 10 years and I moved back west of Dingle (most people have irish as their first and english as their second langauge) Im semi fluent, and ive found very few gaelgoirs that will look down on you for using broken irish. they prefer to hear you try to be honest.

      My 3 year old twins started in the local Naonra last September. I didnt think they would pick up the language very quickly, afterall i wasnt speaking much of it to them, imagine my surprise and my pride to hear them at our Christmas house party with our neighbours to hear them conversing as gaelige with anyone who spoke Irish to them.

      Irish needs to taught for the love of it, and not for anything else. Anyone can pick it up if you try.

      Reply
    • Poor Peig gets a raw deal. She was a storyteller not a writer. She could, apparently, keep people amused for hours with her tales. Problem is that someone wrote them down and not only took all the craic out of them, but only wrote down the sad and miserable ones.

      Reply
    • Paddy talking to some of the older generation here, the same stories that seemed so grim and sad in that book, would be told in the funny fashion in other stories, just shows really

      Reply
    • Laura,
      If I hadn’t attempted to translate “Peig Sayers murdered the Irish language” and just used English, I doubt I would have gotten 39 red thumbs [..and it won't stop at 39 either].
      Unfortunately there is an intolerance of the Irish language and any attempt to use it.
      Peig and/or compulsory Irish killed the language for me and it’s a shame because I was really good at it once upon a time.

      Reply
    • but peig sayers DIDNT murder the Irish language, her birth place was Dun Chaoin, just up the road from me and i can tell you Irish is well and truly alive down here still :)

      The book Peig was not the best book to showcase the Irish langauge, as it is too dull and dreary and depressing, but its not on the syllabus and hasnt been for about 15 years if not more. On saying that Peig was read for leaving cert right? (i dont actually know, it wasnt on my leaving cert) so how can you say that a book you read for the last 2 years of schooling could kill the Irish language?

      There was better offerings from Peig Sayer that they could have used, more lively and fun ones, and I guess thats why the changed the syllabus and started using authors like Maidhc Danin o se.

      Reply
    • The Peig question was compulsory at higher level paper but optional at ordinary level, thereby giving most leaving cert students a good reason to switch ordinary level.
      It was a terribly tedious book and I managed to get a good grade at higher level, despite failing to answer the Peig question very well.
      OK – so Peig didn’t personally kill the Irish language, but the fact that her autobiography was compulsory reading for a generation of students is unfortunate.

      Just in case you need reminding, I’ll leave you with the first sentence from Peig’s autobiography:

      “I am an old woman now, with one foot in the grave and the other on its edge. I have experienced much ease and much hardship from the day I was born until this very day. Had I known in advance half, or even one-third, of what the future had in store for me, my heart wouldn’t have been as gay or as courageous it was in the beginning of my days”

      Reply
    • A few other ideas of what needs to be done in this article – students have to be taught at the appropriate level. Other jurisdictions can do this sucessfully, our system for teaching Irish needs to change.

      http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/tongue-twisted-26843341.html

      Reply
    • Exactly what you said Paddy. You said it in one sentence, I’m gonna try repeat it through a wee story. My Mum was taught Irish by a great man in Galway a long time ago (sorry Mam). He made her love the language. He made her love Ireland, and I think she even loved him a little bit. She always told me why she loved the language so much. It was because of him, and the way he loved it. This exact same thing happened to me during school too. I had a shockingly bad teacher for years, and Irish class was always a struggle for me. Then, along came a teacher that loved the language the way my Mam did. I immediately started to improve, and even enjoyed the odd chat with my Mam. I saw how proud it made her, and that made me proud of myself, as well as my teacher.

      Reply
    • I would like to say however, that some people dont always take to languages at all. There are 9 different types of intelligences and some people are better at other things; art, music, sciences, languages. So I dont expect a lot of people to actually take to Irish, whether they want to or not. I love that this article is getting loads of comments. This is exactly what needs to happen. Let’s hope it keeps spreading and more and more people become interested in the language. I say people, not Irish people, because I know for a fact that non-Irish people want to learn the language too. People that have Irish roots usually actively try to keep them alive in their own lives, and what better way to impress an Irishman than to ask how you’re gettin’ on as Gaeilge? I recently started taking a class in Vancouver myself. My old friend Conor O’Reilly is running it out of Scoil Ghaeilge Vancouver, and he’s making me very proud of him, Ireland and myself. Rant over.

      Reply
  • You can’t teach people who don’t want to learn. So the first challenge is to get people interested in the language. This was my dad’s philosophy as an Irish teacher. The big problem was that many Irish teachers are also products of an education system that made no attempt to make it an interesting subject. My dad found that most of his Irish teaching colleagues had a “Let’s get through this if we must” attitude to Irish classes, and are as reluctant about it now as they were when they were pupils themselves. It’s no wonder there’s no enthusiam for it, and that no one uses it in that case. For all of that, then, I think the suggestions in this article could well be a very positive step forward for reenergising the language – but it has to be accompanied by an attitude sea change amongst teachers as much as students.

    Reply
  • When I moved back to Ireland as a 5 year old, I had a Cockney accent. The brother at the CBS initially refused to try teach me, then spent the rest of his time ridiculing my pronunciation. The way Gaelic was taught was also a problem, as if we were all fluent and just needed to practice our grammar to be perfect. That whole approach removed any desire to learn the language, which, considering I’ve since become fluent in one other foreign language as well as being able to understand 3 others, is something of an achievement. As long as Gaelic isn’t taught as a foreign language, the numbers understanding it will remain small.

    Reply
  • I hated Irish in school as the Christian Brothers rammed it down your throat. In latter years I went back and did Irish classes which I found very enjoyable and great craic. I made good friends with others in the class and afterwards we’d have a social drink in the bar and continue speaking Irish as best we could. 2 of my children are fluent speakers and I’m very proud of that and I’ll use my Irish as best I can sometimes to have a conversation. It’s certainly not snobbery as we live in Clondalkin and are a normal working class family. I hope the language never dies as it would be a terrible shame.

    Reply
    • Andrew 19/03/13 #

      At the start of eu presidency kenny stood beside a sign. At the top in Gaelic then in English with Ireland at the bottom when it should have said Eire. Then he gave his speech in English. Eire is on our stamps and coins. Gaelic is the correct name of language not Irish so seems a bit of a shambles.

      Reply
    • Gaelic is a branch of languages, Andrew. Scottish (Gàidhlig), Irish (Gaeilge) and Manx (Gaelg) are all different Gaelic languages.

      Reply
    • Andrew you only start seeing the term “Gaelic” used in english for the language from the late 18th century onwards. All earlier texts in English call it Irish. For example “Irishe Tongue” this is very evident in Tudor state papers as well as any text from the 17th century.

      Reply
  • Excellent article and ideas although I would disagree with not blaming how it was taught. After all those years of Irish, my French was better after only three and trust me, I was never a Francophile. I think your ideas would help and would love to see (hear) the language make a comeback.

    Reply
    • I agree – I love Irish more now, post-school… I do refresher courses with Gael Linn or Conradh an Gaeilge every couple of years where the emphasis is always on spoken Irish.

      It should be possible to get a higher level B in the leaving cert, using only the oral and aural tests. This would do wonders for the health of Gaeilge – after all, a language is meant to be spoken!

      Reply
  • I have some Irish hidden away somewhere. The problem is I have absolutely no opportunity to use it in my day to day affairs. over the years I have developed a negative attitude to it. I don’t want to have to join special groups to speak it. If it requires meetings and clubs to practice it , it’s clearly not a living breathing language. I reject it’s my fault. I did the mandatory Irish all the way through. I read the literature. After all that time I have simply a rudimentary grasp only. I like the idea of separating the spoken language and concentrating on it. is that enough to revive it ?

    Reply
    • I think there is always opportunity to use it, maybe there are hundreds of people you interact with each day who have the same thought. Why not step outside your comfort zone and just say Dia Dhuit to some people, conas ata tu….etc If you don’t try you will never know. I only speak a cupla focal but if you want to speak it then Just do it! You will be amazed at how a little practice every day makes a difference. Like any language you have to try to speak it. There is a great saying (not sure from who) : If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got. Change your attitude and see it as a fun game, trying to pull those words from the back of your head? Just a thought!

      Reply
  • I grew up in the Gaeltacht…..I do not know how ppl who did not manage to learn Gaeilge. They teach it like double dutch! Ppl should be taught how to speak it….forget all the tenses….all that comes naturally later. It’s a horrible compulsory honours subject because it is badly taught!

    Reply
    • Well put Marie, I spent time in Coolea and Ring while at school and had reasonable use of Irish only to be confronted with a teacher using Galway Irish for the Inter Cert and then a Donegal Irish teacher for the Leaving Cert. Neither were native speakers but products of power lessons for their teaching careers. Because neither of them knew Munster Irish we had to do Books that they understood for the exams. It was a joke.

      On holidays to Ireland I have no problems with native speakers – as we can communicate openly but what gets me and some friends from the Gaeltacht are the “Gaelgóirs” speaking grammatically perfect makie-uppie Irish – direct translated from English – That is not an Irish language Heritage – it is a pretend heritage !.
      Irish needs to be dumped as a compulsory exam subject – but taught as a means of communication and that means letting it grow and develop as a vibrant living language rather than like a trick language for exams.
      Yes for Irish as a LIVING language and NO to Irish as an exam language only.

      Reply
  • Being an English speaking country has served us well, but there is no reason we can’t be bilingual. There are examples of languages that have been brought back from near extinction (slovenian and Hebrew) but there was a desire by the people to do so. As with all things in Ireland we all feel we have to stand either side of a fence sneering across at the other side. I’ve heard conversations on RnG taking issue with Bernard Dunnes effort with the language. There are Gaelgoirs who don’t want to speak to someone with broken Irish. It’s always them and us in Ireland.

    Reply
  • Going from an all Irish speaking gaelscoil into a English secondary school I soon realised leaving cert and indeed junior cert Irish was only measured by how well you could recite off the paragraphs and pages you learnt word for word without knowing exactly what it meant. You did not know how to string a sentence together without the aid of a teacher. I understand that they want students to do well but the current system is a disgrace. The syllabus needs to be revised and make Irish a subject that student might even have an interest in. I can remember getting in trouble for using my own Irish in my leaving cert by my teacher. I still came out with an A1 in it. Irish is no use as a language if all we know is what our teachers have taught us to rhyme off to pass exams. Irish language is dying and something has to be done. It’s our own cultural language. We’re so open to others why not our own!

    Reply
  • When I finished school my command of Irish was such that I could regurgitate pages and pages of essay phrases analysing long-dead authors and poets. All of that dried up within a year of finishing my exams, because it was rote-learned and irrelevant to the rest of my life.

    At the same time I could hold a relatively fluent contemporary conversation in French, and eight years later I still can.

    This is the problem.

    Reply
  • Very good idea to separate the literature from the spoken language in teaching.

    And I think the 1.7m people in the census who said they could speak Irish are a sign that people would like to be able to speak it, even if it is true that the fluency isn’t there.

    Certainly the people I’ve spoken to about it really would like to speak the language, it feels like a loss not to.

    My mother is a native Irish speaker and she often wonders why more people don’t try to speak it – she had to learn English etc. But she had to learn English to survive and that’s the problem.

    There is no pressing reason to learn Irish, which is not to say it has to be ‘of use’, it’s just that when there isn’t a degree of requirement, it stays aspirational, like exercise (we all see the need, want to, but don’t put in the effort) – other more urgent things take precedence.

    I really like the idea of shops having a sign, though I know they exist already – maybe bring back the fáinne so we can talk to other interested gaeilgeoirs.

    My biggest concern is the decline of Irish in the Gaeltachts, as people die, intermarry and emigrate. When we lose the real Irish speakers, those who live and breathe and evolve it, the language will be truly dead.

    Reply
  • On the supposed 1 billion spent on Irish per year, I’ve yet to see any evidence for that. The Irish Times came up with a figure of around €190 million per year, excluding teachers’ saleries and third level expenditure as universities have not carried out any detailed costing. Also, funding for Údarás na Gaeltachta is included in this figure which is questionable as, though they have a strong Irish language remit, they are a regional development agency not an Irish language agency (i.e. I wouldn’t class the financing of Shannon Development as English Language funding). So even though Kevin Myers says over a billion is spent (but fails to give us any evidence/details) I would still seriously question this figure. I just don’t see how you get to €1 billion from €190 million.

    Reply
  • Leagan dátheangach / bilingual version

    @Aodhán ná déanaigí dearmad go bhfuil breis agus 250 Naíonra/Naíscoil ar fud na tíre agus gur seo an chéad deis a fhaigheann tromlach na leanaí sa tír an Ghaeilge a shealbhú ach tá an cheart agat. Beidh an-chuid de na leanaí sin ag cailleadh amach ar dheis freastal ar ghaelscoil mar nach bhfuil go leor gaelscoileanna ann nó go leor spáis sna gaelscoileanna atá ann.

    Ar deireadh, má táimid chun an teanga a athbheochan tá pobalteanga inmharthana ag teastáil uainn. Má táimid chun seo a bhaint amach is gá dúinn díriú ar an aistriú teanga ó ghlúin go glúin go príomha sa bhaile. Is cuma cé chomh éifeachtach agus atá an córas oideachais ní shealbhóidh sé riamh teanga an bhaile, teanga na mothúcháin, nó béarlagair mar shampla. Is gá an teanga a thabhairt isteach sa tseomra ranga mar aon leis sa bhaile, sa pháirc spraoi, sa tsráid, sna siopaí, sna bialanna, sna tithe tabhairne, ar na páirceanna imeartha, agus san oifig.

    Let us not forget that there are more than 250 Naíonraí/Naíscoileanna throughout the country and that for many children it’s in these Naíonraí that they first acquire Irish. However, you are correct in that many of these children will not be able to continue on to a gaelscoil as there aren’t enough gaelscoileanna nor are there enough spaces in the gaelscoileanna we already have to cater for demand.

    Finally, if Irish is to be revived, we need a sustainable Irish language community. To achieve this we will need to focus on intergenerational transmission of the language in the home as no matter how effective the education system, it cannot give children the language of the home, of feelings or of slang. The language needs to be brought into the classroom but also into the home, the playground, the street, the shops, restaurants, bars, playing fields and the office.

    Reply
  • There is a huge growth in the lrish language in the 32 counties! We were taught how to read lrish growing up not how to have a conversation! That is were the trouble lies!

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  • howya 19/03/13 #

    If people saw a use for the language then they would learn it.

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  • Dunmharu ar an DART…!!

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    • Exactly! Check out “Gaelgory” on YouTube and see wonderful examples of T-Rex Ó Saurus’ endeavours to make Irish fun!!! Way to go T-Rex!!!!!

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    • Gaelgory/T-Rex is done by my old Irish teacher. The man is great fun and tried is heart and soul to get me to learn the language. Mostly my poor attitude to the subject but the syllabus strangled a creative and inventive teacher who was trying to make Irish fun.

      Reply
  • Is maith liom Gaeilge ach níl mé an-mhaith ag labhairt é. I believe it should be taught better i scoileanna agus more like a teanga than a subject as suggested by the údar. Ba mhaith liom a fheiceáil more Gaelscoileanna and think there should also be non denominational Gaelscoileanna for children of people like me who love the language but are not religious.

    Reply
  • Learning techniques used in schools are poor – nowhere near enough oral sessions which is the main reason most people can’t actually speak it. Also it should be optional after primary – personally I’d have rather done a euro language or extra business subject.

    Reply
    • Personally I think with pretty much any subject, the assessment dictates the syllabus.
      That’s not the way it theoretically is but I would argue that resisting the idea that assessments can and do dictate syllabus is more a reflection that our assessment methods are not right than anything else.

      Even taking a look at English as a subject – teachers habitually try to predict what will come up (as they do in Irish) and often ignore the least likely poems etc.

      If the assessment is a valuable one, then there shouldn’t be a problem with it shaping the syllabus – assessment being valuable can also provide more confidence in the relevance of the points system (I’m not convinced that the points system is the weakest link in the syllabus-assessment-points chain)

      With Irish, as with any language, surely the aim should be to be able to communicate in the language? And surely that is the area around which assessment should focus? Of course communication is not solely the spoken/heard language but the written/read also.
      So when it comes to poetry and prose – perhaps a better move would be to limit each year the writings to be covered to a significantly narrower window, giving space to gaining a deeper understanding of the language used and the context. It would allow for more significant discussion around the literature also.

      Reply
  • How do we fix the language? Simple, we kill the Batman.

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  • It’s quite simple – the Government need to decide whether they want Irish citizens to speak the Irish language or whether they want it to remain an academic test. Because now that’s all it is. A standardized test for colleges, with no emphasis on the spoken language.
    I sat in Leaving Cert Irish class bewildered by the task of comprehending and debating poetry and novels. Similarly to what I did in English class, the only difference being I’m fluent in the English language. Expected to write 3 page essays on an 18th century poet, yet I’m unable to hold a 5 minute conversation as Gaeilge.
    The focus has to change. And it needs to start at primary level. Building confidence in our ability to speak Irish. It’s disingenuous to say I’m as much as fault as the education system after 14 years when that same system has built up a fear. A fear to speak Irish, as I’ll make a fool of myself. All as a consequence of the systems neglect on the spoken and written word and unwavering focus on the pursuit of another academic test.

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  • I know the author personally, and he is one of the most tireless workers for the Irish language. He is a great personality, and a key figure in making Gaeilge a vibrant part of Irish society. I think we all know the problems associated with the Irish curriculum. There is very little focus on immersion and confidence building.

    Irish is actually not a difficult language to learn. A few years ago, I couldn’t speak a lick of it. I’m flying away now. It comes back to you very quickly!

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  • This could have been a great platform to promote the language but completely the wrong approach was taken. The piece was focused completely on defending the language and how people should adapt to do so, that approach never works.

    A better approach would have been to highlight how the language can adapt. This is a core problem of the pro-irish-language lobby, failure to accept that any language is an evolutionary being that changes over time. We will never return to the irish language of the 18th century, English speakers don’t

    Reply
    • Why should an ancient language have to adapt because people are not speaking it? No other country would expect their language to change completely to suit speakers of a different language. Your mentality that the language should adapt rather than you adapting your own mentality is exactly what the author is referring to, the mental block, or the post-colonial cringe. And besides Irish is very much a 21st century language. Plenty of people speak it on a daily basis in 2013. Your argument makes no sense and you associating a 21st century language with the 18th century just goes further to show that you do indeed hold that negative attitude towards modern Irish that characterises it as old fashioned.

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    • Living in Dublin there is zero opportunity to use Irish on a daily basis beyond the odd phrase thrown out for fun. The city is now completely multicultural and foreigners have a hard time as it is adapting to our english language dialects without having to tackle Irish. I admire anyone who can speak fluently and wish that I could do more but the world has moved forward and the language (and teacjing method) has not kept up.

      Reply
    • Why should a language adapt because people are not speaking it? Because culture isn’t something you can put in a jar and write learned tomes about. It’s the totality of the way we live and interact with each other.

      If a language isn’t relevant to people, and you want to preserve it, then you have to show how it can be relevant. What the author wants to do is adapt the people to the needs of the language rather than the other way round. In what sort of society could that possibly work?

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    • irish is adapting.It is a much older and less developed language that others so the modernisation of it is a bit sudden and shocking. it’s happening so fast that schools and education systems can’t keep up. In Cuan na Mara the word ‘rothar’ is now ‘bicycle’ and I’ve heard ‘siuráilte’ used instead of ‘cinnte’. You can argue that maybe this change is a bad thing, but I prefer to think of it as a growth and development which is important for any tradition, languages included. The verb ‘Googleling’ didn’t exist 10 years ago now we have ‘googláil’. Also the whole education system is backarse. The JC and LC are more memory test, or at least we prepare for them like they are. In english and Irish I was not taught to appreciate Shakespeare and To Kill A Mockingbird, It was a case of remembering enough to bluff your way through. I’m ranting but I love Irish so I’ll rant some more. The whole attitude is one of preciousness and Gaeilgeoiri and Béarloirí have prejudices about speaking Irish. We need to relax and have some craic with it if we want to enjoy it for the amazing witty, poetic, image driven, language that it is.

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    • Living in Dublin there is zero opportunity to use Irish on a daily basis – Na Gaeil Óga- hurling football, ladies football in Irish, Yóga as Gaeilge, Cnocadóirí as Gaeilge-walking group, many conversation circles, some shops, should be more yes but they certainly exist.

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    • Is the Irish for yoga actually yóga?

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    • Gonna sound like a ponce but you’ve got to make your own opportunities and just speak it. Maybe we should all start saying ‘Go raibh míle…’ to bus driver or just say ‘slán’ to friends. It’s a step. Yóga or jóga I suppose.

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    • John that’s exactly my point – I do throw around the odd go raibh míle agus ag cur sneachta from time to time but they are more for novelty than actual use of a language in daily life.

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  • I thought I’d lost all my Irish until my little girl started school in september and I find I’m picking it up again, she doesn’t go to a gaelscoil, but her teacher still speaks to them in irish a lot which is great she has picked it up so well from hearing it on a daily basis

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  • I struggled with Irish from my very first day in school and never recovered. I still have recurring nightmares about it, the way it was taught and Peig. Dear lord how did ramming that miserable story down people’s throats help teach the language. I hated it. As for a mental block, well my teachers managed to give me one at the tender age of 4.
    My preference was the sciences, but all other subjects suffered because of forcing me to try and digest Irish. I ask you this, why is Irish compulsory, why did I need it when applying for college. Irish as a requirement to become an engineer, doctor, pilot. Come on how ridiculous is that. As far as I’m concerned, take Irish as a subject if that’s what you want to do but don’t think for one second that forcing it on those who don’t want to do it is a good idea.

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  • Good article. Considering how many years I went to school my Irish is non excistent. Yes I think the problem is the way it was taught in school.
    When I went to school the teaching of Irish was crap. There was too much emphasis on using correct grammer,the correct tense, the correct spelling, is the fada in right spot, etc, where as the emphasis should have been on simply being understood.
    When you learn a new (not your mother tongue) language , the most important part is, does the person you are communicating with understand what your trying to say, if the answer is yes, then you have succeeded, even if the grammer is wrong, or you use the present tense instead of the past tense, its not that important in learning a language. Get the student comfortable with the langage and then their confidence will grow. They shouldn’t be ashamed to make mistakes when they are learning something as complicated as a language.

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  • Irish=Exams, everyone hates exams.

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  • Nydon 19/03/13 #

    Is it just me, or does anyone else find that An Nuacht ( both radio and TV) is in a strange dialect which, only with the aid of rewind and replay and knowing the story context, is it possible to eventually figure out what’s being said? And I’m only talking about the common words and phrases here.
    Any chance we could have “Nuacht for dummies” clearly and slowly spoken? This, if it were to be done before the English bulletin, could be a useful draw-in for those with a desire to get re-acquainted with the language.

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  • My children went to a Gaelscoil and have almost fluent Irish now, I love it and wish my Irish was half as good. One of my own school friends came from an Irish speaking family and I was always jealous of that. Her mother taught it at second level and her dad became head of the Irish department in Queens University. It needs to be immersive if possible. More Gaelscoileanna are needed to meet the demand for places, 4 times the amount apply to a school than have places available. It is certainly experiencing a massive revival and that can only be a good thing, it is a massive part of our culture and our history.

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  • I was born in Ireland to my Irish parents. I consider myself Irish, not French,German,Chinese or some other nationality. I was taught in school by teachers who were native Gaelic speakers. I was always thankful for this. I don’t think people should be ashamed of our language but embrace it for it’s beauty, richness and depth. I do feel that the teaching generally of the native language is the problem. Teach our children to SPEAK the language and stop the preoccupation with grammar etc. I know this is difficult when a large number of teachers do not use Gaeilge as their first language.
    Well done Aodhdan !

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  • I’m a fluent Irish speaker. I plan on being an Irish and French teacher in the near future. I’m a member of one of the 26 university societies. I firmly believe that the litterature should be optional for all. Let the language remain compulsory, and put some focus on modern Irish writers. While Úirchill an Chreagain is a wonderful piece of poetry, it bears no relevance to life in 2013. I hope and pray for the day when Irish is thought like French, with an emphasis on being able to read, speak and understand as opposed to regurgitating pages of essays learned by heart. I know that they do much the same thing for French, but for most the level of French is far better than Irish at the end of 5-6 years of education. I hope that I get to spread my love for both languages on to a new generation of students, who will do the same in their turn. Tiocfaidh lá an Ghaeilge arís, bí bródúil as :D

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  • Since ramming it down kids’ throats, translating all the street signs and funding an unloved broadcaster hasn’t worked, why not try this:

    A voluntary scheme where shops put up a little sign showing that Irish speakers are welcome.

    Then we will find out whether there really are a million Irish speakers and 93% who want to see Irish revived, or whether the Irish just tell lies in surveys.

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  • Paul 19/03/13 #

    An bhfuil cead agam dul amach.

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    • I can (barely) speak some phrases. But I loved that language in school, and were it not for the invasion of our country, we would still be speaking it.

      Snobbery? In some cases, possibly. But it is wonderful to see it kept alive.

      Gaeilge – an teanga hAlainn.

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    • Ya cead!!

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    • Ha chubby fingers.. Ta cead!!

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    • You love it so much that you can barely speak it. It’s a language that should never have been revived. No one speaks it, no one reads it and that’s the way it will always be, no matter what the lunatic fringe thinks. Read your history as well. People readily gave the language up because English allowed them to avail of opportunities within the Empire. It wasn’t forced on people, no matter what the revisionists tell you.

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    • @john michael; Just because, like me, many people can hardly speak Irish that doesn’t mean we wouldn’t like to. If any subject is taught really badly it will die out. This does NOT always have to be the case, as can be seen from the example of how the Basques pulled their language back and I can tell you from knowing a lot of them that they have a great pride in their language and their culture, something which could hardly do any harm here. As for your claims that others should read their history… how can you then say that English wasn’t forced on the Irish when the use of Irish was banned in schools?

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  • The first problem is the headline.
    “Irish is our culture”.
    I grew up in an English speaking family with English speaking friends. Newspapers in English, TV etc.
    Speaking English is my culture and I don’t like anybody else telling me what MY culture is. I have no problem with anybody promoting the language but don’t force it on me or tell me it’s my culture. Where are we going to stop? Use guilt to force people to play Gaelic Games?

    Make learning the language appealing and let people decide and please drop the “it’s your culture nonsense”.

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    • So is your culture English?!

      I don’t get it – you reject the idea that Irish is your culture and you don’t call yourself John instead of Sean?

      Even looking at a definition of the word culture suggests that it is strongly linked with heritage – I don’t know why anyone would be so quick to reject it.

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    • Indeed, I am Irish and I grew up in an English-speaking but uniquely Irish culture (like the majority of Irish people). I too object to the idea that somebody else’s idea of what is current Irish culture (which is diverse) should be foisted onto me… Remember that the vast majority choose to speak English. I respect everybody’s right to speak what language they like and still be called a true Irish person, and I would like that respect in return.

      As long as people wish to force others to do something they don’t want to do, it will not work – school is a fine case in point – there is no reason whatsoever to force people in post-primary schools to study Irish if they do not want to do so. Core subjects need to be there for a reason that all can subscribe to, not a minority. The majority of students dislike very much being forced to take Irish as one of the subjects they study at a level where they want to concentrate on subject areas that will relate to what they want to do with their lives.

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    • @ Sean – You seem to have a little trouble reading an English language article! He didn’t say “Irish is our culture”. He said “Gaeilge is a part of our culture”. Whether you like it or not this is true – from naming conventions in state bodies (Bord Gáis, RTÉ, Dáil Éireann, etc.), giving names to our children (Saoirse, Rónán, Tadhg, Nuala, etc.), speeches during All-Ireland Final day, etc. etc.

      @ Michelle – you say that “the vast majority choose to speak English”. This is definitely not true. I choose to speak Irish; I’m forced to speak English. My thoughts and dreams are in Irish. The way I conceptualise and visualise the world is in Irish. I find this much easier to do outside of Dublin. In Dublin, however, it’s not so much an apathy towards the language as antipathy. Seated in a café off Grafton Street about 10 years ago speaking Irish with a Russian friend (who did not speak English but had learned Irish in Moscow State University) and I had a glass of water thrown over me by a bunch of D4 (maybe they weren’t from D4 but their accents suggested it) idiots denouncing me for speaking “that pig language”. Where was my choice in speaking Irish there? Here in the north west it is actually quite common to hear Irish spoken on the street. Indeed, I have conducted business entirely though Irish which is something which not only would not happen in Dublin; it would be actively frowned upon.

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    • Just in case I am perceived as a fundamentalist Irish language activist; unlike many in the pro-Irish movement, I actually agree that English has a place both as a native vernacular and as part of our culture. The idea that “Irish is our native language” is wrong. It may be native to Ireland, but it’s not everyone’s native tongue (i.e. the language they first started speaking).

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    • He said in English……
      Point proven.
      Try say it in Irish (if you are able) and see how many understand.

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    • He said in English.

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  • I’m going to play devil’s advocate here.

    We learn Irish for 14 years, when we finish school unless we plan to work as an Irish teacher most of us will never use it again. This is not a judgement on my part, but just an observation.

    Suppose we had spent the same 14 years learning Mandarin, or cloud computing, or engineering. Would that not be of greater benefit in the real world? Again, I’m not here to offend anyone I just want ask.

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    • Thanks for the reply John, I suppose the reality is we can’t teach kids cloud computing or engineering at a young age as you need advanced maths which they won’t have the skills in till secondary school. Languages on the other hand are very easy to pick up at a young age- The best time to learn them is as a child.

      I agree that there should be more of an emphasis on learning foreign languages like Mandarin. The fact is learning one language helps you to learn others- it develops that side of your brain. Learning Irish effectively at a young age therefore can help us learn a third, fourth, fifth language in secondary school. So it”s a win-win. The stats show kids who are brought up as Gaeilge or in Gaelscoileanna are much better than others at foreign languages.

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    • I have to agree with Aodhán giving a child the opportunity to acquire a second language i.e. becoming bilingual and biliterate at a young age has huge developmental advantages that are only know becoming known to the wider public: http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/immersion-education/buntaisti-an-oideachais-datheangaigh/ (click on the English button más gá). One of these benefits is cognitive ability in essence, increased ability in problem solving. What we aren’t doing is using the correct delivery machanism to help our children acquire a second language (in this case Irish)? Irish should preferrably be spoken initially at home by those parents “who wish their children had Irish”, the second best scenario is that they attend a total early immersion Naíonra and then a total early immersion gaelscoil (gaelscoileanna differ on when they introduce the formal teaching of English). But even at that, they will become proficient in the formal discourse of school work but without support for the socialisation of Irish amongst their peers their ability to function informally will not be at the same level as their ability in formal discourse.

      To summarise:
      Bilingualism at young age (pre-6) has huge benefits.
      Best way to achieve this is through Irish in the home – and Naíonra/Gaelscoil (TEI)
      But also important is promoting socialisation through Irish inside and outside of school.

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  • “… making it optional will leave Irish competing with subjects which people… maybe need for college (eg Biology for medicine).”

    Ah, so instead of giving people a choice of whether or not to learn a language that will be of absolutely no use to them, they should be forced to spend their time learning and studying a subject that they have no interest in when they could be using that time to gain a better understanding of a subject that they require for college, or a subject that will give them an edge in their chosen college course – all because a few people don’t want to see the Irish language die out (a language with no economic benefits for those that learn it)?!

    What an outrageous position to take!

    While we’re at it why not force them to learn traditional jam-making and basket-weaving to safeguard those two professions from extinction!? I daresay that would make more sense as they would then possess something of actual value.

    I’m so sick of Irish language fanatics waging their ‘jihad’ on progressive proposals (such as making Irish optional at second level) that will help the youth of today become the more desirable and more capable international employees of tomorrow.

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    • Thank you Gary, I can truly say I learnt to despise Irish from an early age. It made my school life hell and distracted me from subjects I preferred, lowering my grades. Maybe it was the horrible way it was taught, maybe I didn’t have an aptitude for it, all I know is something was terribly wrong with the way I viewed irish. Now I don’t consider myself less Irish because I can’t speak it but I do get annoyed by the fascist approach of some when they try to promote the language and somehow manage to blame those of us that struggled with it. Should Irish be compulsory for the leaving cert. of course not, just as accounting or business studies isn’t compulsory I was never going to be an accountant, so chose not to do accounting, I certainly was never going to become fluent in Irish but I was never given that choice.

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  • I agree with separating Irish into two classes but apply the same to English. English in Second level education needs to focus allot more on the what the majority of students will use English for in University and Work, that is report writing and there should a second class to focus on that as well as one for poetry and essay writing. I’m written probable a handful of essays since secondary school but have written countless reports. It’s a valuable skill no matter what industry you end up working in.

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  • I agree with much of what is said in the article, except the bit about person attitudes to learning Irish. Like everybody else I went through years of being taught Irish and could barely string a sentence together. It wasn’t for the want of trying because my, as with most other students, depending on my leaving cert. Eventually I took private lessons with a native speaker… I leaned to love the language. I still didn’t so so well on the technical stuff but my spoken Irish improved 100% and pulled my written Irish up with it.

    It’s absolutely the way the language is presented to students which has such a detrimental effect. It has to be changed, but we all know that it won’t happen because students don’t vote an teachers’ unions don’t want change.

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  • The way it was taught was incomprehensible and a bore. The teachers had more time for the children of moneyed families who could afford to go the the Gaelteacht for a few weeks every summer, with the kids from Dublin. The language was not made relevant – we listened to rapes from the 90s – read books that focused on 80s rock bands – it was all hopelessly out of date & we laughed about it at the time whilst struggling to learn off paragraphs for exams without ever enjoying the language or getting properly acquainted with it.

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  • Does anyone know the welsh model? That seems to work.

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    • Good point George…I wonder?

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    • The Welsh model involves compulsory Welsh education in all state supported schools up to the age of 16. A positive factor in the Welsh model is that, in the 2007/2008 academic year 23.07% of primary and 19.69% of secondary level students were studying entirely through Welsh. The corresponding figure (academic year 2011/2012) for the Irish language (outside of the Gaeltacht) is as follows: 5.9% of primary and 2.2% of secondary level students were studying entirely through Irish.

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    • Though the Welsh have also noticed a dip in their speakers in traditionally Welsh speaking areas (the focus seems to be on Welsh as an institutional language rather than a language of the home or street). Something that we too need to focus on, as no matter how good the education system if you don’t continue to use the language after school it becomes rusty very quickly (and people lose confidence to use it at all then).

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    • Actually Seán, according to the latest census figures there has not been a drop in actual numbers in traditionally Welsh speaking areas. There has been a slight proportional decline but that has been attributed to the influx of English-speaking people seeking to retire in rural areas (a phenomenon similar to what is occurring in Conemara, Kerry and Donegal). A 2003 survey of Gwynedd (population 121,900 in 2011) showed that 94% of children aged between 3 and 15 were Welsh habitual speakers and that almost 70% of the LGA of Gwynedd were habitual Welsh speakers.

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  • There is simply no use for the language in the modern world( although I do wish it were different.

    Our children would be better served learning a useful language such as HTML, C, or Java from a young age. These are the languages of the modern world and were Ireland to become a world leader in youth coding education then Irish people could make an even bigger impact globally.

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    • That’s not a reason to just abandon it

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    • I never said anything about abandoning it. Our educational focus needs to shift more towards maths, sciences and coding. These are the subjects that will give our children the skills to compete in a global marketplace.

      If we are going to teach languages for the benefit of future employment opportunities then Irish should be way down the list behind Mandarin, Cantonese, Spanish and French

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  • Would love to speak it more. Why don’t those that are more confident use a little more when dealing with those of us who are a little unsure. A little ‘Slán’ or ‘Go raibh maith agat’ encourages others to answer likewise. In my local supermarket one of the cashiers nearly always asks ‘would you like a mála ?’. A little word here and there and soon it will become the norm. As the saying goes ‘mighty oaks from little acorns grow’.
    Get supermarket chains, pubs etc involved. Remember how ‘is feidir linn’ took off all thanks to Obama.

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  • Let me ask this.

    Would you prefer an Emergency Room Doctor to be there because he got enough points in the leaving cert with his/her Biology or Irish results?

    What about the Nurse or is it better that their Irish is better than their Biology?

    Who would be better to run our country & gaelgoir or somebody with a basic understanding of economics?

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    • You could say the same about Maths or French…..

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    • Typically … someone who gets into medicine had to do pretty freaking good in that Irish exam to get the points for it … and being a gaelgeoir and understanding economics are not mutually exclusive … And besides … Someone in nursing / med with no grasp of biology cannot hope to pass … such is the nature of their course.

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    • None of which explains why we have a system that requires our medics to have passed an exam in a language that is barely spoken. Curiously we only require this of Irish citizens and not on immigrant nurses and doctors.

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    • @ Eric – if by “…we have a system that requires our medics to have passed an exam in a language that is barely spoken” you mean that medics must pass an exam in Irish, then you are sorely mistaken, yet again (do you actually get any fact right, or is it just pure bile and garbage with an insatiable hatred for anything Irish language-related that flows from your mouth?). Medics have to pass no such exam. I know as I have family members who are medics and they never had to pass any language exam, be it English, Irish or any other!

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    • And the leaving cert isn’t an exam?

      Why does all but one university on this island require Gaelic for matriculation?

      I don’t hate Gaelic. I hate being forced to learn a language that isn’t mine just to satisfy the whims of a self-appointed (what democracy?) political class.

      Government policy is killing this language. It isn’t mine and I won’t mourn its loss. Coercion should stop.

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    • Well they did the Leaving Certificate, but never had to study Irish as they were exempted. Both Irish citizens who went through the Irish education system and qualified as medics. Your point is void. As for why certain third-level organisations require Irish? Why don’t you ask them? It’s not government policy for this requirement – it’s a requirement that those universities independently set themselves.

      You say you don’t hate Gaelic (which, by the way, is a group of three separate languages which are not mutually intelligible and are as different from each other as Portuguese, Spanish and French are from each other) yet any time anything pops up on the Journal related to the Irish language, even if it’s simply to do with private voluntary projects or initiatives, you are straight on the site condemning even these as being initiatives designed to force Irish down your throat. If you really are only interested in preventing state intervention in the language then you should stick to criticism of said intervention, and not of every single thing related to the Irish language. Then, perhaps, people might start to actually believe you have nothing against the language, but against government policy instead.

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  • The “Ninety-three per cent of the country say they would like to see the Irish language preserved or revived” are largely the same people who have an implacable sense of allegiance or nostalgia towards a language they never bothered to learn in school but now want to force on others. After all, nowhere near ninety-three per cent can actually speak it.

    Once they leave school you hear these people saying “Oh, I’d love to be able to speak Irish”, even though they’re grown adults and nothing is stopping them from doing so. Saying you want to learn Irish but doing nothing about it is something that sounds nice, politically correct, socially acceptable and crucially, requires no commitment whatsoever.

    Being able to speak Irish – I’m terrible, by the way – has never been something I was motivated to do because of the way it was taught (I’ve been learning another language via the Pimsleur audio method and it’s so much better) and its general lack of usefulness in everyday life or future job prospects. It absolutely should be optional for the Leaving Cert because people deserve the best possible chance for themselves to pursue their dream career without extremely time-consuming and enforced distractions before they enter university, “protecting our culture” be damned.

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  • I didn’t go to school in Ireland, so didn’t have the opportunity throughout my education.

    I’ve considered learning Irish a number of times, but the reality is that it is very low on a list of new skills I’d like to acquire when that list is ordered by usefulness. I’d be more likely to learn Mandarin, German or even Latin before I get to Irish and I’m not likely to get to those any time soon either.

    I work in IT and have to constantly refresh my skills. There simply isn’t any room there to learn a language that won’t in any way benefit my career.

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  • I read one post above from a woman who claims the language is not alive if she has to go to special meetings or clubs and groups to speak Irish. You don’t have to do any of those things, you just have to use dia duit instead of hello and Conas atá tú instead of how are ya when you’re out and about. It’s surprising that once you make the effort others will join in.

    Next time you’re buying something in the shop, say Go raibh maith agat instead of thanks. It’s really not that hard.

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  • I’m learning both Irish and Ulster Scots at the moment every Tuesday and Thursday night. I wish we had the same opportunity to learn Irish in school in the North as schools down South do. It’s really hard to find a school here that’s serious in teaching it.

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  • Why is English compulsory for the leaving cert, surely is’t not to keep the language alive. I know I hated Shakespeare as much as Peig. I really can’t see how one can study a language/subject for 13 years and then blame all the teachers for not being able to speak it. In reality if you can’t speak Irish after primary school then 5 more years are not going to help. I think a lot of people are ashamed of the language sadly.

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  • Yep, I agree: Irish was taught to us in a dry, old-fashioned way. At times, this made it harder than it needed to be (not to mention less appealing) and for many, the Leaving Cert was the last time they put together a full sentence as Gaeilge. However, we’re now the ones who will decide the future of the language.

    Irish is part of our national identity and uniqueness, and we must promote it as a living, breathing modern language. For all the statistics I’ve seen about x% being in favour of fostering Irish of or y% being capable of speaking it, why do I never hear so much as a “go raibh maith agat” when out and about or read a “náire an domhain!” on Facebook? It’s up to us to change this.

    Now I know I’m not going to be able to follow any Nuacht stories on quantative easing just yet – but I sure as hell can incorporate my cúpla focail into my day-to-day life. They’re too precious to lose. Oíche mhaith!

    @Aodhán, maith thú – is píosa íontach é seo agus is breá liom do smaointe. Slán go fóill stair na litríocht, dia duit ealaín as Gaeilge :-)

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  • Why learn Irish, French, Spanish, German, Chinese, Pekinese (that’s not actually a language, or maybe it is?)? There’s not much use apart from brain development. Within the next few years, Google translate will have practically purchased every single dialect of any given modern language and will translate anything anyone says to you (from any language) into whichever language you wish to parlez in. This will be done through your phone/new google glass or any google enabled device. Likewise writing. Another totally un-necessary that you won’t need to learn in school. Read, yes, spell, yes (to an extent) but writing, no. Why would you have to? There won’t be any situation in which you’d have to be able to write. Education in Ireland, we’re falling behind every day. I can’t claim credit for this foresight, I’ve listened to view on it and I can’t help but agree.

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    • Except that Google translate is abysmal! It doesn’t understand the vast majority of Irish vocabulary, it has absolutely no concept of turns of phrase in any language, very little understanding of slang, is woeful at any non-SVO language, and is based on mathematical formulae – something which can not be applied to languages. Concepts in one language very often do not exist in another language or can be quite different (compare голубой and синий in Russian with blue in English – 2 Russian concepts for 1 English concept). Translate anything from English to Irish using Google translate and what you get is grammatically incorrect, vocabulary deficient nonsense.

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    • @Shane Donnelly;

      Have you ever actually used Google Translate? As someone who regularly tries to use it to translate into several different languages I can tell you for a fact that it is pretty useless. It will translate single words, but then they might be ambiguous, so it doesn’t know the difference between “well” (well, how are you?, The well has run dry, or I did well today) and it is almost completely useless at constructing sentences. You’re not still waiting for your space car and the robot butlers they promised us back on Tomorrow’s World are you?

      We are more likely to stumble over world peace than to make languages obselete.

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  • @Garrett O’ Brien don’t put your head in the sand lad. I didn’t put a timeframe on this but if I was to estimate, I’d say in 20 years there will be no need to know more than one language. Come back to this post then and talk to me. I can’t entertain people who have no foresight.

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  • Imagine an English syllabus without Shakespeare or an Italian without Dante. So what of Gaeilge, without A. Ó Rathaille,or T.R. Ó Súilleabháin how can we possibly be expected to love something with no substance, no heart. Stop diluting our language in schools. ‘Ar chloistin mo ghutha dhi, goileann go fíor-uaibhreach’

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  • Great ideas Aodhán.

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  • Aodhan, you tell us that ‘Ninety-three per cent of the country say they would like to see the Irish language preserved or revived (ESRI 2008 research)’.

    So there should be no need to have it as a compulsory subject at second level, should there, as ninety-three per cent would choose it? So really, using your logic, compulsion is only there to make the seven percent comply.

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    • For anyone that give my question a ‘thumbs down’, can you explain your agreement with the need to force students to take Irish at JC / LC? Why do you feel the need to bully others?

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    • You question has been clearly addressed in the article:
      ‘Languages are currently harder to study for at Leaving Certificate level and making it optional will leave Irish competing with subjects which people consider easier, less work or maybe need for college (eg Biology for medicine). At present, Irish is a much longer course with 2 papers, aural and oral exams totalling almost 6 hours of exams compared to most other subjects which are 2 or 3-hour exams.’

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    • Padraig, this clearly does not address my question. If ‘ninety-three per cent of the country say they would like to see the Irish language preserved or revived’, why would there be any fear of competition from other subjects? Do you think it is right to bully students into taking a subject and, if so, why do you feel this need to bully?

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    • It’s mainly because the ESRI poll wasn’t focusing on the opinions of 13 year old school pupils. But to be honest I don’t really want to get into an argument with you over it, I respect that you’ve got your opinion and I don’t think it’s going to be changed any time soon.

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    • It is not about ‘compliance’. It is just about retaining the language at the core of our education system. Anything else would be a step away from what the 93% want. Often people don’t enjoy a language until they begin to enjoy sine fluency, keeping it compulsory (the oral, as outlined above) gives a chance for that to happen.

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    • Padraig & Ciara, Ciara, if it is true that ‘ninety-three per cent of the country say they would like to see the Irish language preserved or revived’, then why does Irish need to be compulsory at JC / LC? Do you both think that RE should be retained to the same extent as is currently the case in our education system? BTW, I am a tad older than thirteen and am a parent, living in a Gaeltacht.

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    • @Declan, I don’t know if you got a chance to read my previous comments, but just to recap: students in 1st year of secondary school might be easily influenced to choose subjects based on what is easier, maybe even based on what their best friends are choosing. The ESRI poll asked adults, not 13 year olds, their opinions. Peoples opinions change over time. I’m sure if you were only to ask 13 year olds whether they would like the Irish language to be preserved they wouldn’t be that bothered. I do think RE should be retained at the same level and I also don’t see the relevance of the question. BTW, I’m also a tad older than 13, not married and living in Dublin.

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  • I have to agree with this author. I loved this article but as an American I cannot fully appreciate it. However I do agree that having a mental block will hurt some one who is trying to learn a language. At the same time I know that it is possible to learn a language even when crammed down your throat or surrounded by another language. People’s attitude toward the language must change. Teachers need to foster a love for the language and stop teaching for the tests. I believe Gaelic can be revived.

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  • Irish should be used in the public domain, look at wales for example, street signs in welsh capitals, and English in brackets , government agencies , should be named in Irish only, forms dockets etc.etc be in Irish only, grants for Irish only shop and business signs, especially in so called gæltacht areas.
    In other words the government and local authorities should be made to use the Irish language in their dealings with the public, starting with names and headlines. What would happen if applications for government handouts were in Irish only.

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  • I’m not the best language learner – I pick up grammar easily but have always struggled with vocabulary. Even so, I can buy a loaf of bread in French, and have a passing familiarity with German and Japanese. I didn’t learn Irish in school, but I tried to take it up recently through evening classes. My failure to learn Irish cannot be ascribed to teaching methods – our teacher was very good and taught conversational Irish in a modern, informal manner. I blame two things: Irish grammar (and spelling) is horrendously complex, and the return on your investment of effort is low.

    I can only imagine the resentment of those who sat through Peig Sayers…

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  • Irish is a waste of time its a useless language with 4 different dialects in a country of less the 8 million people and a only a small proportion of them speak it. I know all you gaelgoars have a heart attack thinking about this and love forcing the masses to try and use it but its a waste of time and in reality has very little to do with our culture or who we are as irish people. If a second language is going to be compulsory maybe one that is practical that will help in international business would be better then forcing this shite down peoples throats

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    • ‘Less than 8 million people?’ I think you’ll find that we have a far smaller population than that, my friend.

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    • Also, the Irish language is typically divided into 3 dialects, that of: Ulster Irish, Connaght Irish, and my own favourite, Gaelainn na Mumhan.

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    • As opposed to the complete shite you’ve just written? Do you stay within a 10 mile radius of where you were born and raised Mark?

      Because otherwise you’ll encounter English speakers from Dublin, Cork, Kerry, Galway, Donegal, Belfast, Derry and many more with all very different dialects. Jesus, your wee head must be spinning at the thought of it.

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    • Cillian there is a huge difference between different lingos in the way people in say dublin and cork people speak english to the different dialects of Irish out there. also my main point was Irish is pointless its a usless language thats used by so few but gets so much money. Maybe if more of use spoke Mandarin or hindi there’d be more jobs going around. Also there was no need to be so aggressive in your post i understand your a big man on the GAA pitch but if i had a public facing radio career i wouldn’t be so quick to be making aggressive posts.

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    • The fact you first said that there were 4 Irish dialects, now you’re saying there’s huge differences in dialects between English and Irish lead me to believe you havent a clue what you’re talking about. “Howya” in Dublin would be like “Hows the form?” in Donegal/Parts of Ulster. How is that any different from “Conas atá tú?” and “Caidé mar ‘tá tú?”

      And congratulations, you can use Facebook – my personal life should be of no concern to you, nor would i bring up yours in a completely unrelated subject.

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    • ha ha i was giving you a warning as not to get to aggressive as i work in the media as well and people can be caught out very easily. You are still avoiding my main point is Irish useful? No. Does anyone one get benefit from speaking irish in the business world? no. does irish teaching warrant the millions spent on it each year? No. Its fine to be taught as a choice subject but i would think my son would be much better learning a language that is practical then one that is only thought because a small section of the community will be up in arms if you took its funding. why not teach primary schools kids more science even, would that not be a better use of there time.

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    • Good to see you’ve come to your own conclusions Mark. But Yes I have benefited from learning Irish, financially and personally (and I don’t work for an Irish language organisation), I speak Irish on a daily basis, and yes it has been very useful to me.

      Thanks for your deep insight into the media world too though – but you might have noticed that as im posting this through my personal facebook account, im giving my personal opinion on a public forum. As opposed to trying to hand out unrelated advice to strangers, and sounding like a complete muppet.

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    • Mark, your post is one if the most ignorant, discriminatory, and foolish on here. You have no right to state the language is useless, or shite. Perhaps not a whole lot of people use it day to day but a huge amount of people do have good will toward the language, and would like to use it more. But, unfortunately, people like yourself scare them away from it. We are always getting back to that empty argument of what does Irish contribute to our economic or job prospectives? The same hollow cry of ‘what benefit is it?’. Well, I’ll have you know that benefit isn’t always tangible. I can’t describe the fulfilment the language gives me and the enjoyment, that I know, only Irish could give me. Think of it, what use is History, PE, art, geography or music in school? Certainly we could study Java, or something like that, but the arts give something unique and building.

      The issue is should Irish be compulsory in our schools? I believe it should be. I myself wished to drop Irish in school and went down to pass in my 6th year. However, a trip to the Gaeltacht, and a fantastic Irish teacher at my school, re-awakened my love for the language. Four years later and I’ve my honours leaving and Honours BA in Irish. I speak it with my friends. That would not have happened for me if Irish was a choice. I would have lost so much.

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    • fair play to you john thats a good story of how you like to use irish, but it sound like a hobby more then a useful tool. I have lived with irish speakers spent a lot of time in gaeltacht areas, but i have never seen any merits in learning a language that i have no use for, so i think it should be a choice then the kids that want to learn it would get to do so in smaller classes surrounded by people that are interested in the subject. As for your question “Think of it, what use is History, PE, art, geography or music in school?” firstly was this a serious question? secondly music and art are not options in many schools around the country as subjects so they are choices, also i believe history is so poorly thought in this country its an embarrassment when talking to people from other countries the general understanding of history other then our own in this country.

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    • @cillian your one of the few then, it still doesn’t mean it should be compulsory cause you enjoy it.

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    • @Mark. RE: ‘is Irish useful?’

      If it is purely monetary value that is of importance to you then I will give a few examples pertaining to that.

      Through the existence of, and attempts to grow, the Irish Language jobs are created for Irish people in many industries, such as teaching, from pre-school to third level, as well as: media, film & acting, translations, writing and publications, and the administration and service sectors that surround those industries (those are just the most obvious ones that jump to mind).

      In terms of tourism, the Irish language has been central to the creation of our culture, from music to literature (in both English and Irish), but it is also in itself a tourist attraction. People in universities around the world, from North America to Australia and across Europe and Asia, study the Irish language and they come here as a result. I know that, for example, in UCD there are somewhere between 60-80 foreign students who study beginners Irish each term. For an example of a festival that draws almost solely on the language, the annual Oireachtas na Gaeilge attracts about 10,000 people to an host town every year and is worth some €6 million euro to the local businesses. Also, the language as a resource is vital to the economy of many isolated rural communities, with the seasonal influx of students attending Gaeltacht camps and courses.

      But again, to return to attracting foreigners, tourists come to Ireland not to see Starbucks or McDonalds, but to see and experience something different, from landscape to culture and atmosphere, and the language is a big part of that.

      So I would argue that there are many monetary advantages attached to Ireland having its own unique language.

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    • Have a look at Google.ie. See where it says “Google.ie offered in Gaeilge”. Just click on it for a second (don’t worry it’ll immediately give you the option to change it back). Now see the way it’s all translated to Irish? That’s one of the world’s leading international businesses, choosing, because it makes economic sense for them to do so, not because anybody forced them to, to employ people to translate their search engine and all that comes with it to Gaeilge. Now I don’t know the ins and outs of how Google’s Dublin offices work, but I’m pretty sure it was both practical and economically beneficial for someone – possibly/likely several (dozens of) people – to have a very well-developed command of the Irish Language to conduct these translations for Google. Facebook have also employed people to translate their entire interface to Gaeilge. You can be pretty sure that at least some of those people employed by these major, highly successful international modern companies, were able to do that because they studied Irish to Leaving Cert Level.

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  • Attitude does play a part but it isn’t the main part by any stretch of the imagination. The main part is THE WAY IT IS THOUGHT. We simply don’t have a clue how to properly teach it. If our teachers could teach it in the same the way teachers teach Spanish, French and German, focusing on learning the grammar step by step we’d be laughing. It should be thought this way from 1st year on for students that haven’t already reached the standard.

    The step up from primary to secondary school standard can also be a major factor. There is no consistency in the level people have throughout the country’s primary schools. The standard in my primary school was low and the secondary school I went to had a high standard because a lot of the students came from a gaelscoil. My teacher in first year didn’t use any English at all. These factors meant that the rest of us were at a disadvantage and were nearly all thrown into ordinary level at some stage. We spent the majority of our time in ordinary level learning off lines to write in the exams and going through poetry and literature that we clearly didn’t have the standard for. From my experience in secondary school there were NO ATTEMPTS to teach the Irish grammar or vocabulary in a coherent and consistent manner. No one cared about teaching us Irish to speak it or read it. It was simply to get a C so that you could go to university.

    I speak three languages fluently so I wasn’t the problem and nor was my attitude.

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  • I think daily use has something to do with it as well, I can’t sit here and name all the characters in Hamlet, name all the lakes in Ireland or rhyme off everything about Trigonometry and they’re all subjects that I studied for 14 years, you’re not going to remember everything that you’re taught as the years go on but I can safely say that I know more Irish than I know German/French because I only studied those subjects for a couple of years and I’d definitely struggle to put a sentence together in German or French!! I know it’s putting it in very simple terms but some people are good with languages and some people aren’t!

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  • http://www.youtube.com/codasgaeilge
    Here’s a fun way for kids and adults to learn and use the language in a more natural non-forced way, through the power of videogames! Check it out to support our language and culture! Go raibh maith agaibh as éisteacht :)

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  • Well Aodhán, after that 14 years learning Irish thanks for confirming that its my own mental block that is one of the main reasons I can’t speak Irish!!!

    My mother was taught through Irish and her knowledge was a great help as a child when we really struggled with the language. I don’t ever remember a resentment towards Irish in our house. There is something radically wrong when I have more French than Irish at this stage of my life, its really no help at all to blame me and others for our lack of Irish as children having spent 14 years ‘learning’ it. Worst if all are those who ‘lord’ their own Irish speaking ability over the rest of us. I would dearly love to have a real ability to speak our own language.

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  • I definitely agree with the idea of the poetry and prose as a separate subject. Irish should be taught and examined as the basics, like the way French and German etc are taught/examined, learning the language to use in an everyday context. Students are being dragged through a course learning paragraphs off to answer questions instead of fully understanding the vocab and structuring sentences.

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  • Tried to write in. Irish but it’s totally impossible because of your predicted. Spelling corrective text much as I would prefer. “Cun” “scriobh” “as”. “Gaelige” — “ma” “se” “do” “toil” “e” “”"is” mise” seoirse oh-eigeartaigh” Clos”na”bad”. Baile” na manigh”

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  • Language is evolutionary! Gaelic is in my view, on life support but with little to no chance of recovery.

    It currently has some tangible connection to our past and the nostalgia that is conditioned into many of us keeps it clinging on to existence. With time, this I would predict will fade further and people will not bother to learn it on a mass scale, just as they don’t learn old Gaelic or the grunts that the current and of thousands of other dead languages evolved from.

    Globalisation is not all bad! From an outside perspective it may initially appear more homogenous but to an individual life becomes far more rich and variable. How limited was life in Ireland in only the 1950s by comparison to the rich variety of today’s world?? Would you go back?? One global language can only enhance this variety in my view, with easy access to all to information and ideas from within all sub-societies within our global society.

    For those that wish to pursue Gaelic as a hobby or interest, it’s great to have the option and I hope you get great enjoyment from it. Due to globalisation there are literally millions of additional interests that could now also be pursued by those looking for something different. So many things that could never have been imagined in 1950s Ireland or before.

    Let’s not waste childrens education on hobby fodder!

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  • One word. Snobbery.

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  • The way I was taught it was that it was drummed into you and the process I went through in scholl was hating it to dreading it to loathing it! I have no aptitude for languages and came to realise that after years of having irish thown at me in the classroom and teachers ranting at me like Irish was something I should have been able to speak instinctivly as soon as I was born. I made several attempts at learning French and German, but to no avail. To be perfectly honest, Irish was nothing but a total wast of time as in the 25 or so years since I left school I have never ONCE had reason to use it in daily life. It’s not spoken as anything other than a novelty outside of Ireland and pretty much spoken as a novelty here. If people were not forced into learning it at school then maybe it would be more popular but of course, a lot of that had to do with having to be fluent in irish to get a civil service job, another way of forcing people to learn it. For a language the we are all supposed to love and embrace as our native heritage there’s an awfull lot of forcing going on. Irish is like a horse that’s run it’s race and has gone lame… and what do you do with a lame horse? Keep riding it around the racetrack or put it out of it’s misery!

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  • Tommy C 19/03/13 #

    Beautiful language. I just wish it was taught in schools here the same way English is taught in Scandinavian countries.

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  • Irish language is not needed today in business etc – only as cultural loveliness – shame it’s not encouraged and more universal :)

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  • As someone coming from a background where Irish would always have been used casually from time to time and who was lucky enough to have gotten a teacher in fifth and sixth year whose teaching methods of using translation exercises and lots of oral work with a huge focus on grammatical accuracy as well, I should mention that this was in an all-English school but there was a marked improvement in our Irish within weeks. Now, that I’m studying the language in college, I am shocked and appalled by the poor standard of Irish, people are unable to speak the language, their pronunciation is shocking and their use of the language is influenced heavily by English syntax, even tutors are coming out with things like ‘smaoinigh faoi’ and ‘chomh maith LEIS sin’. How can the language be expected to survive if standards are not being maintained – it would be better to see the language die in dignity than to see it turn into some sort of pidgin English

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  • Is brea liom Gaeilge. I try speak it to my daughter every so often. When we cross a road i say tabhair dom do lamh or scuab do fiachla. Little phrases like that.

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  • I do NOT agree that ” If you cannot put a sentence together after learning Irish for 14 years in school, you are to blame as much as the education system.” and I say this as a person who is woefully embarrassed at how bad his Irish is and as someone who teaches another language, English, for a living.

    It’s this simple. Irish should be taught in Ireland the way English is taught in any successful language academy around the world. If it is taught to you as it was to me, as a burden, in a monotonous manner by a teacher who had no interest the students will not enjoy or want to learn more.

    Irish is primarily a spoken language but I know from my own experience that I NEVER once, apart from being in the gaeltacht, spoke one sentence of conversational Irish. I was also never given text books or materials to use that looked like they bore any relevance to the century I was living in. Kids need things that are interesting and motivating and that doesn’t sound anything like those old classes with Pat and Sile on the projector to me.

    I know they eventually killed off Peig, but if we keep throwing M’Asal Beag Dubh and and the same worn out old rubbish at the kids they will feel the exact same way I felt when it was being forced down my neck. If Irish class was, as I said before, to be something that students would like, including the fun activities, games and role plays that are the bread and butter of teaching English as a foreign language I reckon that within one or tow years we would see the numbers speaking the language increase rapidly.

    And of course, we can all waffle on and on about it but if the government was in any way serious the would go to the Basque Country and ask them how, over recent years they have managed to make great headway. Or we could just go back to complaining about it.

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  • SF/IRA ruined Irish as it is used as a terrorist weapon to deceive the police in the UK. Communication is hard enough in English as most people can not speak it properly. I would prefer if the English language was thought more and isish was financed by the people who want to speak it. The time spent in school is wasted and the cost of Irish teachers must be millions. Manderin would be more beneficial. As for the issue of culture I feel most Irish people would prefer if the country were more honest and especially politicians and councillors. We are corrupt and Irish is a distraction as people use Irish and English names to deceive. Even Gilmore’s wife won’t use her married name. I wonder does she use 3 names 1 Irish 2, Maiden name 3 married name in Irish.

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    • Yeah, the Irish language is the biggest conspiracy theory ever devised…

      good one pal

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    • Going by that logic the German language would surely have died out after the Second World War, no? Or Spanish after the Spanish Inquisition. It is nonsensical to equate an entire language and all speakers of it to the actions – regardless of the politics of said actions – of a limited number of people who happened to speak the same language. I dislike the fact that Ireland was colonised by the English, that my people and my nation were sorely aggrieved by the barberous actions of various generations of English-speaking invaders (as well as speakers of other languages before them), but I don’t hate the English Language or all English-speakers.

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    • Irish as an IRA weapon and tool for corruption? Idiotic. I an not surprised that someone who would post something so ridiculous would be ashamed to do so under their own name. Or perhaps you are protecting yourself from Irish speaking spies conspiring against you?

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