That’s not the full story and you know it. You are perfectly entitled to Job Seekers Allowance as is anyone else, so long as you meet the means test requirements. If you did not meet those requirements then you have no need for Job Seekers Allowance, end of story.

Good for youTrevor you know every thing , as do all the thumbs up people who liked your comment . You obviously know the system better than I do. After being a PAYE worker for 31 year I never received social welfare except children’s allowance . I am of the old school of life I work for what I earn and I am fed up answering to the likes of you , to whom I owe nothing …… When I became ill and unable to work I went to my local social welfare office and because I did not pay the full PRSI I was told that I was not entitled to anything …. I got NOTHING. not even advice.

Again, you may not have been entitled to Job Seekers Benefit (why were you not paying the full PRSI for 31 years?) but you were and are entitled to Job Seekers Allowance, as everyone else is, so long as you meet the mean test requirements.
If you have a disability that prevents you working, you are entitled to disability allowance, so long as you meet those needs put forward.

There is nothing untoward from the social welfare, if anything they are rather anal in sticking to their rules and covering all their bases to make it fair and just for everyone who applies, not giving special treatment to any particular group of people or otherwise (no matter how many bleat on about single parents/refugees etc., blah blah blah).

Go to their website, read up on what you’re entitled too, get your paperwork together and get yourself back down to them and apply again, or appeal their initial decision.

If your partner (they even cater for gay couples and have done so for a long long time) is earning and their income brings you above the limits imposed for the mean assessment, thusly hindering your claim, well, that’s the same for everyone else too.

If you appeal the initial claim and are successful, it will be backdated to when you first applied, so do it now and you might get a windfall, again assuming you meet the mean test requirements or requirements for disability.

Many disability allowances (I’ve heard, possibly just rumours) are being denied initially due to widespread abuse in the past, but if you appeal the decision with whatever corresponding backup documents are required, probably including relevant documents from your doctor/hospital then I’m sure you’ll have no problem.

Trevor, Yes you can apply for job seekers allowance, as you say it is means tested, so a grown man or woman whose partner is working and their income is JUST OVER the means test limit will not get ANYTHING ! How can it be that a grown man/woman who has worked all their lives, paid taxes all their working life, can be told that they are not entitled to anything! Crazy situation and totally unfair!

Thanks Trevor for all that information . I worked in the civil service and we did not pay the full rate of PRSI. They do now . I could say a lot more about my circumstances but youwill just have to wait for the book to come out !!! Seriously , Social welfare is very complicated , too complicated , for most people to grasp , and if every one paid the same prsi then it would be a fairer way of doing business.. Not every one is out to abuse the system , and most people want to work.

I know Eileen, it is or can be rather complicated, especially for someone applying for any such payment for the first time, and especially so for someone who has worked all their life and never thought of themselves having to do so.

The whole welfare application process is just anal rather than being over complicated or unjust at all, it’s anal probably because they’re trying to speed up the application process. If you have everything with you when you first apply, after reading what you need fully before applying, have all your bank statements, partners bank statements, all your other documents etc., – the process can go fairly quickly (in your favour or against as the case may be).

You should also apply for a P21 balancing statement and a tax refund since you’ve left employment.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/p21-balancing-statement.html

Phone the revenue and ask them to do a P21 over the last few years (I think the limit is 3 years they can go back, may be wrong or changed since) and if you’ve overpaid at all you will get a refund.

At the very least get a tax refund for your last year of employment.

Don’t give up on the process of applying for either JSA or disability, really do read up on what you need to bring with you, any backup evidence of disability etc., and apply/appeal their initial decision if you do feel you were treated unfairly – you might just have got someone in your local office on a bad day or something. Always appeal, never give up and just accept an initial turn down, they could well have made a mistake or you may not have furnished all the required details.

Elizabeth, you could be still entitled to something even if your partner is earning over the limits of the means assessment and even if that fails (your partner would need a fairly decent wage in these times for your to get nothing at all), apply for the FIS (Family Income Supplement – info available from welfare.ie) and see what happens. The FIS now is really complicated and long winded but if it’s your last hope then go for it, your partner may need to apply though rather than yourself.

If you have kids at all then you may be entitled to half rate payments from the JSA to support them, even if you get nothing yourself. I don’t know your own full circumstances but as above, read through their website fully, get everything you need together before you apply then go apply/appeal their decision with everything you need in hand and ready there and then.

Appeal if denied and if you really need it, apply for Supplementary Welfare Allowance while you wait.

It’s not a free handout to everyone and there are strict rule in place with the means assessment but in all honesty, it is fair enough (the rules that is).

I think the biggest problem for some (not aimed at anyone here) is that the rules and limits imposed on the means assessment has not kept up with peoples improved standard of living they were exposed too in the good times (not saying it should either) but those that to others would seem to be generally well off but otherwise quietly suffering personally in a financial sense, have little to turn to now that their living standard and bills coming in the door do not meet their general income to support those means and thusly the means assessment for them can seem unjust and unfair. I haven’t got an answer for that myself either but I honestly couldn’t put the blame on our welfare system to meet that requirement, I think the answer lies elsewhere, possibly in some form of debt forgiveness even if it does not sit well with many others – we simply cannot let people live in constant debt for the rest of their lives due to mortgages and essential utility bills in particular.

Thanks Trevor .

Why do you blame the immigrants?

@Kevin – are you talking about the low paid?

I have to agree here, the social welfare system is completely in favor of useless lazy people.

I know of one situation where there are two semi detached houses.

The occupants in House A are married with two children and are paying their mortgage. The husband is self employed but is currently unable to generate an income due to the downturn in the economy and is entitled to 0 from social welfare.

The occupants in House B are not married but a couple living together with one child, who have never worked a day in their lives. I believe they are housed with the rent relief system so in effect pay absolutely nothing. One receives a disability payment, the other the dole. Other children stay at the house on a regular basis. Taxi’s are regularly seen picking up and dropping off the the occupants of this house ( One would assume to and from the pub).

A brief look at Income/Expenditure for both houses:

Estimation for House A:

Income
Wages (After Tax): €2,000
Childrens Allowance €240

Total €2,240

Fixed Expenditure

Mortgage: €800
House upkeep: €200
Utilities: €250
School Books, Uniforms etc: €100
Insurance Life, house etc.: €100

A balance of €790 left for other expenditure such as food, car, clothes, medical bills, house appliances etc.

An estimation for House B:

Income:
Disability: €800
Dole: €800
Childrens Allowance: €200

Total €1,800

Fixed Expenditure:

House/Rent €0
House Upkeep: €0
Utilities: €175 (they receive assistance from social welfare with these)
School Books, Uniforms etc.: €0
Insurance, Life, house etc.: €0

A balance of €1,625 left for food, drink, cigarettes, holidays etc.

Extra Benefits:
0 Medical Costs
If Couple B’s Fridge breaks social welfare will buy them a new one.
Free college and education courses from FAS (not that they will use them)

St. Vincent de Paul has also been spotted bringing free shoes, beds, coal etc. on a regular basis to House B.

Since the downturn House A has been drastically affected financially with the loss of one income and the reduction in the second, extra taxes, interest rate hikes etc. while at the same time House B has been little or no way affected.

The occupants in House A are currently struggling to meet all the monthly outgoings, mortgage, food, utilities etc. while House B sit at home all day smoking and drinking. The children can often be seen wandering around the estate at all hours of the day and night as they get locked out when the couple are comatose after drinking too much. These children also are filthy, obese and are contaminating the area with their inability to speak properly and foul language. I use the word contamination as any of the younger kids in the area that come in contact with these children are picking up extremely bad habits.

There needs to be a radical change in the social welfare system.

Re the income protection- I feel that by saying s/e to take out income protection , I am suggesting something they can do right now to protect themselves instead of waiting for the govt to change policy

I’m self employed, luckily still making a few quid. I really resent the crap some people have posted here, too many public servants reading this site, maybe.

To those of you who think self employed have it good I ask one question, who are the wealth creators in this country? I’ll tells ya, it’s the self employed.

The system is unfair as it stands, if I worked for you and the job went under I’d get welfare and you wouldn’t doesn’t really make sense, however I will say to oily foster boy it couldn’t be public servants posting crap here, sure they couldn’t write it off as a business expense! You blame the public servants for the crap were in and they blame the self employed for not paying there tax. I think Jim corr was right about the lizard people. Just being serious for a minute here foster what do you work at, I need a bit of building work done… Cash job:)

Well said Niall. People need to stand up to this government. Like you I dont mean anarchy but it is possible to demonstrate en mass without violence surely. The OAPs did it so should the rest of this country.

I think this government won’t last jig time if it targets people who really need the money as opposed to double jobbers, dole scroungers and wasters.

A government governs with the consent of the governed, moral imperatives for austerity measures be damned.

There are supports in place and it’s been like that for years, http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/JobseekerSupports/BackToWork/EnterpriseAllowance/Pages/ea.aspx

I agree and this has happened to me

I have read your threads just now Trevor and it is more helpful than ANYTHING I have encountered in the last 4 years since my business closed. I was ( should be ) self employed and went through the means test …Wife was earning 15 euro too much so I got nothing. Then I got a job PAYE for almost 2 years until recently I was let go ( just before the 2 year redundancy start point) and I have had to re apply for the JSA. My appointment is next week so fingers crossed I will get some joy from them as I am currently trying to set up a new venture with little or no income as yet to speak of. My wife lost her job a while back and we are quite worried as bills are not getting paid this month.
I am not for sitting on the fence though and there are signs that my new SELF EMPLOYED/ EMPOWERED !! venture is showing signs of working out but as I said the money is not there as yet. Heres to hoping eh !!? And good man for taking the time to put out that information which will give others hope that its not all black and white. We need a few good men thats all and things will get better for everybody.

I totally agree Paul.

The problem is that we elect glad handers who are both too afraid and too stupid to take on the total reform that is needed.

But let’s not point the finger at the public service readers of this forum either.

They are fulfilling job descriptions they signed up to and pay scales that were offered.

At least Howlin seems to have the right basic approach, instead of saying “how much can we cut?” he’s starting with a clean sheet and asking “what do we need toBrendan spend on?”

Dunno what happend to that last line – should have read –

>>At least Brendan Howlin seems to have the right basic approach, instead of saying “how much can we cut?” he’s starting with a clean sheet and asking “what do we need to spend on?”<<

I ‘m self employed as a solicitor. How exactly is the government more disposed toward me? Is there some scheme I have not heard of? Some pot of money I have not been given access to? Do tell? I am ALL ears.

Why should they ? Do paye workers have to do this?? No

I have income protection insurance. It costs me â

That’s true……and a little ironic

@hello, whilst I understand your frustration I’m not sure your response above is particularly constructive. Workers need employers to create jobs so that they can provide for themselves and their families and employers need workers to staff their organisations. I don’t think alienating the workforce is the best way to get workers regardless of academic prowess to listen to or even attempt to engage with your point. I might add not everyone is fighting against you here. It is also noteworthy to point out that those workers are a valuable resource not a necessary evil, without a healthy supply of talent organisations fail to compete. That is why there is so much interest in how and why employers are so choosy during recruitment amongst related issues. You won’t get employee engagement by belittling their contribution to your project.

@ HELLO SPRUIKER

As a professional of over twenty years standing I have both worked within another company to process work and create jobs for others and also worked as a self employed person.

Thus I’ve been on both sides of the fence, plus I have a third level qualification, so I understand perfectly your reference to “scholars” and the implication that a qualification, in and of itself, does not create jobs or wealth, which I agree with, BTW.

But if you have a chip on your shoulder about others’ qualifications, take your own medicine and try doing, say, a Fetac Level 6 course to start you off and see how “easy” it is – its not easy at all.

Trading as a “seat of your pants” individual is not “on” any more, and even from the perspective of being compliant with current Irish and EU employment Law, you almost need a degree to negotiate worker’s rights.

As for your suggestion about PAYE workers or public servants trying what you do, you should try what they do and learn to respect their diligence, forbearance and ability to put up with people who don’t have a clue what their job it like year after year.

See if you can stick it yourself as a machine line worker for a year and see what time you have left to create jobs.

Or get plugged into a semi-state for a year and see how even your ability to network may be compromised by the office and party politics at work there.

You would be looking for creative ways to commit hari-kiri with a month.

Because its horses for courses and a little mutual respect and recognition goes a a long way.

As asomeone once told a friend of mine “there’s only so much money a man can earn without exploiting others.”

(nods)

Not only are self-employed people required to pay tax they have to produce annual accounts and file them with the revenue.

For the record I am self employed, and although I didn’t have to obtain them and they’re not issued automatically, I – like other self-employed people – have sought and got several tax clearance certificates in the past decade.

Not only do I – like Claire’s husband – have to pay my taxes but I have to prove that I do – and I have!

Trevor, I think part of the issue for previously self employed people is that unlike previously employed PAYE workers it seems to take up to if not beyond 6 months to process claims for support, leaving those people and their families potentially without any income depending on individual circumstances. I assisted a small enterprise winding down it’s operation and that was exactly the experience faced by the self employed person whose business it was. I have listened to horrendous reports from people about being pushed from one office to another only to be blankly refused by the health board re: supplementary welfare, which I believe is automatically paid if claimed by former PAYE workers whilst waiting on means testing or claims processing.

Róisín, I take your point and I couldn’t disagree with it as I don’t work for the department at all to have any figures to back it up but if all available documents, bank statements, etc etc are at hand on the day of the claim and nothing is outstanding in any regards, then the onus lies with the social welfare to process that claim in a prompt manner.
Everyone who applies for JSA is subject to wide ranging wait times, depending on the local office you apply to it seems.
I seriously doubt they pick on self employed people in particular, it just may be the case of having to trawl through a lot of paperwork, some which may be outstanding when JSA is initially applied for.

Maybe someone could reply from the department itself in that regards, even anonymously, I can’t answer for them myself.

… And in theory that is how it is supposed to work Trevor. However, theory and practice have never been easy bedfellows if they ever got on at all. The experiences people have and the directions that suggest it is a simple process are worlds apart. There isn’t even a cohesive approach from local SW office to the next. What one office tells people they require can and often is completely different from what the next office along asks for. The directions published on the depts website come with the disclaimer,’ for guidance only,’ like all publications from that dept. So it is a little unfair to contend it’s only a simple matter of claiming and following the process. The reports coming from individuals does not reflect the simplicity you portray in the system. Furthermore, why should a government dept ever deny a legitimate claim in order to test it’s validity. That is playing with people’s lives an arrogance that deserves a full investigation if it is true.

Again Trevor, theory is all very well, what is reported to happen in practice is vasty different.

It’s not theory Róisín, it’s the rules that they lay down themselves, directed as such by the government and though not a lawyer myself, I’m sure are based and set in relevant law.

We can’t base everything just on hearsay and rumours, without the full story and details behind any particular cases mentioned. It’s easy for someone to say this and that but not provide the truth and detail behind it.

Some, actually probably most people are probably just misinformed and unaware of exactly what to do in order to apply in the first place and this article does nothing but support that as it’s left out important facts so as to suit a one sided argument based on the perception that somehow self employed people, regardless of how much savings/wealth they may still have, are entitled to a free state handout (JSB) without paying anything in regards the supporting stamp to back it up and without being properly means tested.

They should have put something away for such a scenario and if they didn’t, they can still apply for JSA, regardless of whatever stories are banded about or hearsay/rumours, if they meet the means test requirements and have provided all that is asked for (why wouldn’t you, you should have all relevant financial details to hand at all times for tax purposes anyway, not to mention your own monetary well being) then you should have little problems.

I’m sorry Trevor, I have worked very closely with small business owners and I can assure you what you are presenting is the theory and it rarely if ever goes so smoothly if at all in practice. Do you seriously think that someone smart and tenacious enough to run their own business hasn’t found the same information as you have presented here? Do you actually suggest that the same people do not explore every avenue? The way the system works is not cohesive and step by step as you clearly are presenting. If it were, many people would not feel so frightened, trapped, stressed and pressurised. Nor would they have recourse to The SVP. This is why it is so hard for self employed people when their ventures become untenable.

@ Róisín,

There is a huge blind spot created by

(i) this being a totally foreign territory for the self-employed and so they don’t even know to ring their local MABS office and

(ii) their self-image of being totally self-reliant and a very hard worker being assassinated by their having to seek what many of them may see (unwisely I have to add) as a charity instead of what it is – their entitlement.

Therefore Trevor Byrne’s posts to this thread/article may in fact have done more to help professionals in difficulty than many a website, because its no use that the information is “out there” in cyperspace or in a local authority pamphlet holder or on a Community Welfare Officer’s desk.

Michael, that may or may not be so. However, Trevor is also suggesting that it is easy to do and easy to get a decision made to support people who need the support. The overwhelming evidence is to the contrary and many many people get very frustrated by people giving such advice when they have already done all of the above. I am not arguing against the access of the information, the information is freely available. What I am saying is that people [small enterprise owners who have had to wind down their operations] I have worked with have not found it to be a straight forward process and often have been turned away time and time again putting great stress on them and their families leading to recourse to charities. The process is what needs to change which is what the author of the article is essentially asking for. 6 months waiting with no income is a long time.

Very well said Trevor and I’m glad that someone finally points out JSA. I know of several self-employed people who have applied for JSA and have been rightfully given it. What is left out of most discussions on this topic is that the whole system is means tested and that self-employed people who lose their income are means tested. If they are found to have sufficient means they might not receive any payments.
I know of not a single self employed person who lost their income, had no means or assets and was still not given any payments.

@ Róisín

No argument from me on what you say.

@ Evert Boop

I concur with what you say and note that -

- More than 20,000 Euro on deposit
- A car bought on the mortgage
- A second home

These may adversely affect your chances of success of getting Jobseekers Allowance or Benefit.

Means testing will require an exhaustive trawl of your accounts and sources of income.
You will also have to show evidence that you are actively seeking employment.
MABS and the Community Welfare Officer are both good resources.

If you have paid your stamps you are entitled to claim.
If you haven’t paid them you may be in difficulty.

Diesel phone bills etc are an expense not a luxury ! Vans don’t run on fresh air. And a phone is needed to contact customers.

You may only off set legitimate business expenses which are wholly and solely in the support and service of the business. And there are some pretty stringent revenue tests and audits to make sure you comply as well as hefty penalties if you do not.

The Revenue are part of the problem. If you are big, you can have full time staff fending off inquires. If you are small you might have one book-keeper, probably part-time, and regular consults with your auditor. The Revenue treat all as equal, but it is an unequal struggle. Wealth has a habit of protecting itself. Isn’t it admirable that so many scions of the Celtic Tiger years have been able to decamp and begin afresh overseas.

@ Yvonne Brandon Byrne

If you want credibility you have to discriminate between the sovereign debt and the bank debt.
Our tax take means we cannot afford our public services – we are living beyond our means.
The bank debt is a separate issue and one this government inherited.

To those who say, leave the Euro, devalue and default, I say this.
Our debts are in Euro and Dollars.

If we leave the Euro, devalue and default we are screwed.
We cannot pay our way year on year – we need to borrow.
Our borrowings become dearer to support if we devalue.
Worse, no one would lend to us because if we default.

Therefore –
We have to maintain our position AND cut costs.
But cutting costs from those who have a legitimate expectation of state support is a terrible vista.
Far better to see where the frauds, the criminals and the wasters are and tackle them head on.

Oh and put every high paid civil servant on €50,000 a year and let them “struggle” on that.
Or perhaps we should put them on Jobseekers Allowance for a while!
Joan might adopt it as a career choice to give good example.

Yes!

@ willy pearse

Here – http://www.ppl.ie/2011-irish-tax-calculator

A single man earning €50,000 pays abut €15,000 in tax.

The maximum tax rate is 41% on income over 32,800 – explain your claim.

@Hello, you are clearly on the attack at anyone and everyone right now. Truly I am sorry you are under such strain. However, your tone and approach is far from encouraging workers amongst others to sympathise with you. I do as a matter of fact understand your frustration. I have worked very closely with small business owners and know only too well the situation faced by many. As for you it is clear from your posts that you too are facing some challenge. This I too understand which is why I’m not becoming emotionally reactive to your highly emotionally charged posts. The bottom line here is attacking all comers will not garner understanding or support from anyone. Calmly explaining the situation you and others face without resorting to a divisive us and them scenario might.

@ HELLO SPRUIKER

Enjoying what you do is a state of mind.

sorry willie but you a bit of an ass what a stupid statement people who and pay tax are entitle to some kind of assistance, some of those people worked in the paye system for year,s before they went to work for themselves and contributed there taxe,s people get off boat,s and planes never paid one iota and get everything now people who did not want to go on the dole who went to work for themselves are getting punished through no fault of their own , if that,s not discrimination somebody will want to redefine the definition

Name the who willy, what a comment.

Quit while your not ahead, don’t comment on things you clearly don’t understand

Actually there are PAYE tax reliefs for public transport tickets and cycle to work schemes as well as approved fees for education courses.

Mmmmm take a look on line there are many things that the paye worker can clam, if they just get off there back side to look for, I’m self employed and don’t get overtime and holiday benefits, I’ve no back door, so I have to keep going. Not looking for prase or sympathy, in the end weather your employed or self employed were all in the same boat and sorry this country will "not" be able to keep up the funds for the unemployed, drop taxes and rates and save the state money by getting people back to work.

If they’ve earner it they can spend it on anything they like.

Besides there is something all you begrudgers are forgetting. The guy in the 100k car has already paid â

Willie, grow up will you! I work my arse off every week and if I choose to spend some of MY hard earned cash (even after the government take 50% of it) on a high end car, then I will bloody do so!

Once we start looking at what people spend their money on, you might find that a high end car driven by someone who doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke and who not prone to road rage [someone like me for example] could reduce stress and the risk of accidents and actually end up enhancing a person’s life expectancy.

On the other hand someone paying out about the same as a high end car lease per month on drink, fags and drugs would see a significant decrease in life expectancy, absenteeism from the workplace, increased anti-social behavior and would be more likely to be a burden on the state due to illness and incapacity in late life.

The guy sitting outside the local at 3.00 pm on a Sunday can point a finger at the guy in the car, but both are spending the same amount.

Willie you don’t have a clue!

You have got to be deluded! Self employment particularly when employing people is a long round of paying very one else before paying yourself. VAT, PRSI and money for income tax. Professional indemnity Insurance. All utilities and rates. Rent on office space. I think I might have earned about 5k this year. And I work probably 50 hours. I can’t afford to fold. The upside is I am in control as opposed to waiting for employer to tel, me I have no job. But Mercs????

Willie – you are totally clueless. Unless you are talking about Bono.

Being ignorant is one thing. Letting everyone know you are ignorant is foolish. The last thing this country needs right now is another ignorant fool.

? What a stupid I’ll-informed comment. Do you think all self-employed people are rich and drive BMWs? Is the local shop keeper rich? The person who started a small business rich? Self-employed people pay their way! They pay taxes and should be entitled to state help like everyone else!

@ Willy pearse

There is a huge difference between most self-employed people I know and the eejits who took out huge loans to buy their house, extend it, and buy new cars on the mortgage.

@ HELLO SPRUIKER

I’ve worked as -

A dishwasher
A kitchen porter
A sweeper in a flour mill
A truck delivery man
A spark’s mate
A fitter’s mate
A blockie’s mate
A chippie’s mate
A plumber’s mate
A draughstman
A motorcycle courier
A voluntary worker
An architect
A middle manager
A planning consultant
A business consultant

I’ve an NFQ Level 8 degree and a separate Level 6 qualification.
I enjoyed all of the work I was lucky enough to do.

Right now I’m a recovering workaholic.
Its the hardest thing I’ve ever done.

NFQ – National Framework Qualifications

8 = Honours Degree or Equivalent 4+ years

6 = Major Award at Fetac Level

9 is a Masters and 10 is a Doctorate.

http://www.nfq.ie/nfq/en/FanDiagram/nqai_nfq_08.html

Just to clarify, I didn’t start work until I was fifteen.
It was summer work to help pay for fees and school books.

Hot, sweaty kitchen work washing up and making lunches and teas.
But it taught me a lot about the tourism trade, people’s expecations and exploitation by employers.

- “There is a limit to how much money a man can make without expoiting others…”

Business expenses are legitimate write offs for sole traders just as they are for limited companies.

Employees have a raft of protection in Irish and EU Employment Law, from the TUPE regulations to NEMA and all points in between.

There is a huge onus of responsibility on both company employers and sole traders in relation to employing people and their rights.

There are no entitlements and rights if you are an entrepreneur, or a sole trader – the buck stops with you!

So if there are things that need to work both ways, we’d need to take a long look at how some employees can abuse the system.

Just as there are social welfare fraudsters (and I see some 300 Million Euro has been saved this year alone) there are jobsworths in employment who need to cop on.

All of us are being tested at the moment.
You cannot just cheery pick the benefits from the other groups and say “I want that” – there is a total package and you have to accept the rough (and it can get very rough) with the smooth.