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Dublin: 18 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Gilmore challenges Boyd-Barrett to find alternative to property tax

The Tánaiste accuses left-wing TDs of failing to come up with their own proposals for how a property tax should be levied.

THE TÁNAISTE Eamon Gilmore has challenged opposition TD Richard Boyd-Barrett to disclose his proposals for how a property tax should be levied – accusing his fellow Dún Laoghaire deputy of failing into indicate whether he supports such a tax in the first place.

The challenge came during an ill-tempered session of Leaders’ Questions, when Boyd-Barrett advised that the revolt seen over the €100 Household Charge “will be nothign compared to the revolt you’re going to see if you impose hundreds of euro more of austerity taxes”.

“It makes a mockery of your claims that you’re going to protect children if you’re going to levy a property tax that will drive the parents of those children into poverty,” Boyd-Barrett accused.

Gilmore, in response, said a large number of households who had taken Boyd-Barrett’s advice to boycott the Household Charge had found themselves having to pay increased amounts through fines and penalties.

“Take up your pen and set out for us: what are your proposals in relation to a property tax?” the Tánaiste quizzed. “In principle, are you in favour – or are you not – of introducing a property tax?

“Set it out for us. What it should be based on, what level it should be charged at… you want to tax the super-wealthy? Right, let us have the detailed proposals,” Gilmore challenged.

Boyd-Barrett said the Tánaiste’s comments that over a million householders had boycotted the household charge ahead of the original March 31 deadline, simply because of his own advice, were an “insult”.

“They did it because they recognised it was an unjust and unfair charge,” he insisted.

Health and child-proofing

Earlier, Fianna Fáil’s Dara Calleary had asked Gilmore whether he had held discussions with his party colleague, junior health minister Róisín Shortall, to discuss her reservations about the activity of James Reilly and the Department of Health.

He said comments from Gilmore, who said the government had “an urgency and an impatience” to ensure free access to GPs for all people living in Ireland, were disrespectful.

Gilmore countered: “When it comes to gall, Ceann Comhairle, Fianna Fáil has it in abundance,” saying the team of health ministers were merely focussed on undoing the mess that the present opposition had made of the health service while in power themselves.

For Sinn Féin, Mary Lou McDonald urged the government to affirm that Budget 2013 would be ‘child-proofed’ and would not place children in danger of entering poverty.

Gilmore said all legislative proposals, including those which will form part of the Budget, were examined by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs before being discussed at cabinet level.

“Our efforts at economic recovery are not an object or a need in themselves,” the Tánaiste said. “They are a means to achieving a more equal society, a fairer society and a society in which we have far fewer poor people.”

VIDEO: Róisín Shortall’s not-so-ringing endorsement of James Reilly

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Comments (90 Comments)

  • Beside social welfare handouts to bondholders what about the 800 state quangos we don’t need? What about cutting TDs salary by 50%? What about sacking Librarians earning more than the prime minister of Spain? Labour’s way or Frankfurt’s way Gilmore….take a hike!

    Reply
    • What about cutting social welfare by 50%, allowances by 50%!!!! Or at least make everyone who gets tax money do something for it!!! How is that for an idea….

      Reply
    • Martin 20/09/12 #

      What about a 75% wealth tax for every cent earned over 100,000 to make those earn most pay most. And what would you have those on disabled allowance do for their welfare payments, polish your right wing shoes .

      Reply
  • Not handing a billion to bondholders in a couple of weeks would do it, Mr. Gilmore.

    Not paying other peoples gambling debts will do it for the years after that.

    Reply
    • Perhaps but that does not address the deficit. If we don’t pay these gambiling debts then, for a while anyway, we will not be getting any loans to cover the deficit. That would mean massive cuts in Government spending. Maybe that’s the right thing to do but people need to understand that and what it would mean for education, health, welfare etc.

      Reply
    • @Diarmaid, What happened with Greece would suggest you are wrong. They burnt their bond holders to the tune of €100 billion and in exchange were lent even more money. Do you really think the EU want the poster boys of austerity to be seen to fail?

      Reply
    • not paying the bond holders .. Really

      When the govt runs out of money , Theres no more cuts that can be made because everything wud have to be cut to the bone , the country wont be allowed borrow money because we’d be seen to be debt defaulters , what then Brains ??

      Reply
    • Kerry , do u really think we’d be lent money after greece doing that .. come on

      Reply
    • Kerry, if it’s down to EU-determined optics like you say — and I don’t believe it is — then it would not be in their interests to facilitate this at all. It would represent an abandonment of austerity in favour of another previously refused solution. The only thing worse than failure of the poster boys for austerity is success under a different approach.

      Reply
    • @gordan I think u will find s/fhave before and will again come up with a credible budget proposal all (and this bit is important gordan) costed by the dept of finance but I guess you have just decided to go for the lazy option to just have a go at s/g

      Reply
    • No offence Darren but its spelt Gordon .. don’t take the lazy option and not look above to see that ;) many thanks .

      If they have Darren well and good , i’ll support anybody with credible solutions ,

      Reply
    • @Kerry – Greece is in a far far more serious situation then we are. The cuts there are far in excess of what we have had and the scale of serious poverty is horrendous. Our debts will have to be written off at some stage and the sooner the better. Just as we will, at some point, have to deal with peoples mortgage debt and right that off too.

      Reply
    • Here darren is there anything in it for €50,000 to be spent on cartridges by one man ????

      Sorry cudnt resist that :)

      Reply
    • Without the banking debt burden, this country is on target to be producing a surplus in 3 years time.

      Reply
    • jrbmc 20/09/12 #

      To the comments below and above , people would give up everything if it meant that the country would recover , the problem is they are been asked to do so while the bondholders still get their money , stop paying the bondholders and everyone will come together and sing from the same hymn sheet .

      Reply
    • Kerry, Are you seriously using Greece as an example for the path to follow….

      Reply
    • censored 20/09/12 #

      The deficit is already out of control and it doesn’t look like our esteemed leaders have the wit or courage to fix it. The argument that if we stop paying back the money we borrowed to fund the deficit means that we won’t be able to fund the deficit is an idiotic one.

      Reply
  • Wallace will probably tell Gilmore to increase the VAT rate

    Reply
  • Have the government considered alternatives?

    Reply
    • No! It’s typicle of them to redirect their ineptness by asking the opposition for alternatives most of which are ignored. Gilmore is fooked come next GE. Total let down.

      Reply
    • Why shouldn’t they ask the opposition for alternatives? That’s what they’re there for!

      Reply
    • To be fair to EG, he is well within his right to ask for alternative and plenty have come from the opposition. Some have been considered, some shot down. However in this case, I’m yet to see a single viable alternative to anything put forward from RBB. All he seems to do is to repeat “No, no, no, no” consistently. May as well have elected a faulty gramophone in his place!

      Reply
    • lets see if RBB can come up with anything or is he just another SF type no no no politician with nothing credible for an alternative …. We can all say no no no to all the govt cuts , This is the time to prove there is an actual alternative out there ..

      Reply
    • If Gilmore wants some alternatives he could start by asking his cabinet colleague one B. Howlin why he only managed to make €3.5 million in savings from a reported €75 million? He could also ask across the cabinet table of the health minister he so admires why has he not moved with more urgency on talks with pharmaceutical companies about generic drugs. Reilly has been min for health for 18 months and talks only started mid August this year.

      Reply
    • jrbmc 20/09/12 #

      I watched it this morning on the TV , Boyd- Barrett asked Gilmore several questions and as usual all he could do was answer a question with a question !!!!!

      Reply
    • In fairness RBB wouldn’t have the resourses to come up with a propper alt. The government have and major parties have huge bugets for advisors and the like. Antthing RBB comes up with will be from his own head.

      Reply
    • Pádraig, so you are saying he’s allowed to criticize a policy but not be able to back up his opinion with any facts because he’s independent? That’s ridiculous. Regardless, he get’s leaders allowances and staff allowances.

      Reply
    • Here’s an alternative: don’t pay the promissory notes.

      These payments alone will cost us at least 2 percent of GDP for the next 10 years. Now, was that hard?

      Reply
    • Suggestions?
      Drop your wages Gilmore
      Reduce the size of the government and senior civil service.
      Stop wasting our money.
      And tell the bondholders to F Off.
      In other words do your F@@@ing job.

      Reply
  • Emmet 20/09/12 #

    We the people can not take anymore. Have they not seen the report today regarding mortage defaults and the governements solution is the add more tax to each household, the primary residence,…

    This government like to compare our services and structures to other Europe countries when it suits,(the latest being Scotland regarding the Gardai). Now if we are to do this let’s compare apples and apples lads. We do not need half the TD’s if you look at the population to representive ratio so lets start there and work our way down.

    The most worrying thing is where Ireland is going to end up,Stephen Donnelly had a damning view of where we are heading confirmed by professors in the US,IMF representatives etc. With regards our GNP. The advice he got was we need to adopt the Iceland model,food for thought maybe.

    I am concerned as to what will be left for our Children.. They are the future

    Reply
  • How about asking people to borrow an extra 9 % on their mortgages to be paid off over say 20-30 years plus interest, call it stamp duty not property tax……oh wait…

    Reply
  • as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike

    Reply
  • Leaders ‘Question Time’ in the Dáil is turning into a farce.
    Does Eamon Gilmore think that by giving ‘smart replies to legitimate questions, that it is living up the the Governments promise of ‘open Government’?
    If it continues on the way it is currently being used, then it should be scrapped as it’s a total waste of time and is currently only used by both Eamon Gilmore and Enda Kenny for scoring points over the opposition!

    The way that they both carry on at question time seems to indicate that the opposition are only a source of annoyance to them and that they ‘the Government’ know best!
    We are only too aware as to where that way of thinking got us and Governments, even those with vast majorities, should not act like they are dictators!

    God knows that the Country is in a bad way and that all Parties should be brought together, for the good of the Country, and let them put their ideas on the table to try and find the best ones that will help this Country forward.

    The likes of Shane Ross, Peter Mattews, etc., have vast knowledge and it should be put to good use, but I won’t hold my breath on that, as things stand now!

    Reply
  • David 20/09/12 #

    At the end of the day, he has no say about how it is implemented because he like the rest of us works for the banks. The banks now control the destiny of the people in this country and there is nothing we can do about it. They have decided to afford us hardship and there is no one in this country fit to stand up to them. So anyone thinking that we live in a democracy, will be getting a reality check at the next budget.

    Reply
  • Just tax the wealthy. Im sure a HSE consultant on a salary of 300k plus would not feel too much pain of they were shoved into another tax bracket. They can keep their fat salaries but the govt can just take it another way.

    Reply
    • They dont get 300k plus Kevin. And as for the weathy…People earning 70k or more pay the vast majority of income tax already….Some level of fairness please.
      Also….A new tax bracket for the super rich would actually generate very little revenue so in truth you woukd have to start at about 70k….

      Reply
  • Housing Bubble – Pay Bubble – Pensions Bubble

    The Irish were delusional in believing that their houses were worth twice their real value.
    The Tooth Fairy wasn’t adding extensions to their houses at night while they slept, to increase their wealth. Hence the property bubble. ( A belief society NOT a rational logical society)

    The Irish are also delusional in believing that their value, in pay and pensions, is worth twice the EU average.

    “Government spent €20.2 billion more than it took in last year.” – Dan O’Brien – to pay for this delusion.

    http://ronanlyons.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/eurozone-teachers-salaries.png

    The refusal of 600,000 householders to pay the household charge of 100 euro, to pay for these delusional pay and pensions is the start of this bubble bursting.

    The Croak Park Agreement on public pay and pensions cant hold back the unstoppable force of reality.

    There is a clear alternative Eamonn!

    The loss to the economy can be made up by stopping the 6Billion Euro pa outflow on new cars due to the daft annual road tax law that has a tax bias to buy new cars!

    Ray (Engineer NOT Economist).

    Reply
  • Boy Brat seems a combination of being loud, sounding articulate, while uninformed, ignorant and not being self-aware of his own limitations.
    I’ve yet to witness him put together a cogent argument on anything. The hot air burns to a confused fizzle after he has launched his soundbite.
    Here’s his big chance to impress. I’d love to see him come up with something of value, rather than ranting.

    Reply
  • FF/FG and Labour are as useful as a chocolate kettle not one original taught between the lot of them !!!

    Reply
  • gilmore is worse than dick spring, and thats sayin a lot

    Reply
  • i have struggled for the last year, not even been able to feed my kids properly, i am going to be one of those people out side the dail, homeowner now homeless and living in a car,, sad country they just cant start at the top, paying tv celebrities over the top, most of the ads on tv are taxpayers money, tv licence,and rsa, they still live high on the hog in government and big pensions, and nothing to consultants over pay, thats where are tax money is going, thats where are home taxes will finance, and we are not fools to know its just lining for politicians pockets, sad,, but good news is they will have to house me and pay more than i owe on my mortgage, and thats ireland politicians for you, every cloud has a silver lining,, just the thought of living in car with kids is going to kill me,,, better than other thoughts i have had on how my life is ending up,, terrible to be 50 and not afford to live, while we take bankers to court,, ha ha,, most they will pay is 3500 ,, and what will it cost the tax payer for judge, barristers,, oh stupid me,, tax payers pay again,, welcome to ireland,

    Reply
  • They just don’t listen ! they just do not want to know any alternative to their austerity measures….
    Gilmore should be ashamed of the way he has killed Labour !

    Reply
    • paul mc 20/09/12 #

      What do you mean ‘they don’t listen’? There’s nothing for them to listen to, because opposition ragemeisters like RBB are keeping schtum on their alternative masterplans.

      Gilmore is actively soliciting alternative views here. I don’t see what he could possibly be doing to better convey a desire to listen.

      Reply
  • Talk sense Gilmore will ya. Your asking Boyd-Barrett to take up his pen and work out his alternatives. Wheres the governments alternatives, I understood they had overpaid advisers to come up with this advice. Pay Boyd-Barrett for his advice and I’m sure he would come up with alternatives to these unfair taxes. Your suppose to be Tanaiste and yet your expecting someone else to gave you alternatives while your overpaid advisers sit on their arses doing nothing. I say the lot of you should resign and not wait to be thrown out on next election day. I have young people coming to me who are afraid of having this these taxes taking out of their wages. Isn’t this not legal extortion?

    Reply
    • surely boyd barrets €96,000 a year salary plus expenses paid for out our taxes to him shud be enough for the man to pick up his pen and bring the alternatives to the table , afterall we as a country will benefit from them …

      Reply
    • He has. He’s also on vincent browne regularly outlining the alternatives.

      Reply
    • Vincent browne and Michael o’leary to run the country next , No messing around with those 2 , we’d have surplus within a year with those 2 at the helm .

      Reply
    • So you’re not denying, contrary to your post, that Barrett has disclosed (whether you agree with him or not) his alternatives in public?

      Reply
    • Going on vincent browne and claiming this and that will work is one thing , Bringing solid alternatives to the govt is another , If the man can do that and the alternatives are viable money saving or money generating options , i’ll vote for him or anybody else that does the same

      Reply
    • censored 20/09/12 #

      I think Vincent Browne probably did a better job of grilling BB on those alternatives than any govt representative would be capable of. So let’s clarify exactly what standard of proof you’re really looking for here in terms of “solid proposals”.

      Reply
  • Gilmore is bye byes next time out ! He accused FF of Economic Treason. He has since joined them in the Traitors Dock. He leads the race to the trough and his party are history and will be decimated hopefully along with the Blueshirts who are now displaying their true origins – Fascists!

    Reply
  • Unhappy Gilmore would not be saying that if he was in opposition. Here’s a solution, Grow a Set of Balls and explain to the IMF that the Irish people say no to this tax. The Irish Government refuse to criminalise it’s people By bringing it into legislation via a back door.

    Lead Us or pay the price in the next election.

    Our national history should rule out a property tax.

    Not just the people who gave their lives for the Republic but the parents and children who live in these overpriced houses who were betrayed by the Irish Government and the Banks

    I am sick of all the spin and lies.

    Ireland Just Say No!

    Enough is Enough!

    Reply
  • alan 20/09/12 #

    i am surprised that boyd barrett doesnt come forearmed with figures

    it shows a lack of preparation. gilmore is easy meat. what he is proposing is clearly unfair and will be counterproductive(for a variety of reasons) as a number of posters have pointed out. i cant fathom why the opposition are so unprepared. even if you agree that the bondholders should be paid in full (i dont) there are far better and fairer ways to go about it than this. why are these ways not made explicit? and not in the hackneyed ‘socialist’ rhetoric of higgins adn the rest but in terms that people can understand and relate to?

    thier assumption that gilmore and the govt’s approach is predicated on the assumption that we all want to maintain a particular type of society should be stated clearly. this will help kill off the view that govt is desperate to propound, that there are no alternatives, that if we dont follow current policy we will be unable to borrow a penyy and that everything will collpase in teh mornign (clearly, not the case. but the more it is asserted the more people begin to believe it).

    i certainly don’t share gilmore’s vision of a kind of soft, caring capitalist society but wish that representatives in the dail who are also opposed to this would get their act together (and i dont mean in the ridiculous media stunt manner that someone like flanagan appear to prefer)

    of course, this raises anothe rissue: why do the media give so little space to real oppositional voices outside the dail?

    Reply
  • The children are indeed the future Emmet and Ireland needs to urgently address the craziness of the 80s, 90s and noughties, using the combined financial brains of the EU to do it. However, the strict attention to financial detail needs to start very much at the top and work down using economic outsiders to oversee the process of culling.Carpe Diem.

    Reply
  • Richard Boyd-Barrett is right to challenge Eamonn Gilmore about the property tax, which is very unfair to everyone who is vulnerable in this country, there is an alternative which is to tax the super wealthy like bono and enya who get tax exemptions, when they should be paying their way, and pulling their weight, and TD’s wages should be reduced and the number of them too, as we don’t need 166 in the dail, and it is too much for a small country.

    Reply
    • Reg 20/09/12 #

      An annual property tax is fairer and more sustainable than the system it is replacing, high stamp duty rates.

      Reply
    • Reg just a question people that have less than 100 a month left after they pay everthing,any thoughts on what they do?
      I have listened and read comments from all the pro property tax side but have heard or read no opinion on what people with no more to give do.So if you can please explain the alternatives for people with negative equity,no job,no hope,very little money,how do they pay this tax.Do they decide which members of their family eats or not?

      Reply
    • Reg 20/09/12 #

      No Norman it’s not a good time to be changing the system to an annual property tax, it should have been done ten years ago when income tax rates were dropping. However the change is the correct thing to do. Unfortunately for many the timing is not great.

      Reply
    • Thanks for the answer Reg,but like many other pro tax commentators you didn’t answer what i asked of you.

      Reply
    • Reg 20/09/12 #

      It’s difficult to provide answers for you when the method of calculation, waivers, payment etc has not yet been announced.

      Reply
    • Looking after Mé Féin Reg? Once you’re ok and can afford it, that’s alright. But thousands upon thousands of people cannot. They have lost their jobs. But they still have mortgages and bills to pay and children to rear. They simply cannot afford a property tax which will make them criminals when they cannot pay!!!

      Reply
    • Reg so you don’t what waivers excemptions etc will be in place.So how can you suggest it will be fairer?Fairer on who?

      Reply
    • Reg 20/09/12 #

      The principal of an annual property tax is fairer Norman. High stamp duty as a means of property tax was very unfair. Many people never had to pay it to start with while people who had to move house for whatever reason may have paid stamp duty several times. Many people had to borrow the money to pay the high stamp duty and will be paying the interest over the course of thirty years.

      Reply
    • Sasha. Do you actually believe that. Tax the super wealthy like Bono. Our defecit is C.12 Billion per annum.
      Oh my sweet Jaysus I despair

      Reply
    • censored 20/09/12 #

      There’s an argument for that, but at least the cost is paid and then you’re done with it. A property tax based on house value can be very dangerous with fluctuating property markets. What happens once you’re retired/out-of-work and you happen to live in an area that is afflicted with property speculators?

      It’s not fair, unless it’s somehow tied to the value and cost of services provided. Not property value.

      Reply
  • Boyd Barretts constituency has one of the highest compliance levels in the country for paying the HHT. Shows what they think of him and his advice, the 1 term merchant…

    Reply
  • @ Derek Rochford

    “Does Eamon Gilmore think that by giving ‘smart replies to legitimate questions, that it is living up the the Governments promise of ‘open Government’?
    If it continues on the way it is currently being used, then it should be scrapped as it’s a total waste of time and is currently only used by both Eamon Gilmore and Enda Kenny for scoring points over the opposition!”

    not only question time, the whole shaggin dail! its an annoying pretence of democracy.

    Reply
  • Boyd Barrett…the a la carte Socialist…he is laughable!

    Reply
  • Put everyone from the top to the bottom on minimum wage that should do the trick

    Reply
  • Gilmore is Nothing but a Turn Coat and A Fool, He Knows Nothing About The Economy, Go Away Gilmore and Get the Hell out, Do your Homework and maths you Stupit Gutless man, Richard was Right to Let you Have It” , Ha

    Reply
  • He shouldn’t be a TD… The mans a socialist idiot with little or no comprehension of how the country runs. It’s bad enough DLR elected Mary Lou but Boyd-Barrett is just a laughing stock…

    Reply
    • The whole of Irish politics is a laughing stock. What absolute foolery.

      I liked Ray’s observations above on the pension bubble- I know it’s mean, but I can’t wait to watch that pop…….all the little piggies finding themselves without a trough.

      As for alternatives- Ireland should be aiming for at least some degree of self sufficiency in terms of food and energy so that we are not at the mercy of oil price hikes etc and rising food prices. Problem is, we’re stuck in a medieval mindset where ‘power’ is still respected instead of pitied. The will to power is an illness and we are all colluding in it.

      It’s the future already.

      Reply
  • @ fintan , wot computer game is that little chick from on your pro picture :-)

    Reply
  • A WEALTH TAX !!!!! God almighty, is it really that complicated ?

    Reply
  • Why should they answer?

    Reply
  • They should put a levy on fuel instead. Businesses should be treated separately.
    Much easier to collect. Very widely diffused.

    Reply

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