The problem is if both Houses are democratically elected, then both can claim to have democratic legitimacy over the other. See for example US politics when the Senate is one party and the House of Representatives is the other party. Or the President represents a different party than the majority in Congress.

Don’t abolish it. Have representatives from all 32 counties and make it a worth while upper house. Proper reform is what should be done instead of the simple option of abolishing it.

Reform it ? They knew that a vote was coming on their very existance. You would think that they would of been working overtime, getting stuck into juicy problems (loads of them out there) & showing us their true worth. But instead – nothing !

Surely the media (the “fourth estate”) is the watchdog? I don’t ever recall the Seanad exposing any political scandals.

@Les Rock.

I agree with your comment. The Senead has to stay. Yes, it needs to be reformed and yes, maybe less Senators are needed. But if we’re talking about reforming the Senead surely the Dail needs reforming also. Absolutely no need for the number of TDs in the Dail. The arrogance of Kenny is hugely bigger than aherne’s &co. Never thought I’d ever make that comment! My preference for a watchdog is the Senead! Senators would have a more educated idea and understanding than I of what the Dail is trying to do, changing and bring in new reforms/laws.

I need Senators to keep me updated on these. The Senead must stay!

If you can find it, Michael McDowell wrote an excellent paper some years back on why the Seanad should stay.

It’s also the only time you’ll hear MCDowell say ‘i was wrong’.

I was firmly of the belief that the Seanad should be abolished. After watching the total lack of accountability and what passes as debate now days in the Dail I have come to the conclusion that the Seanad needs to stay. It needs huge reform but I would be uneasy if only the Dail was available to hold government to account. I’d agree with Sheila the number of TD’s should be cut to possibly to 100 TD’s.

Ryan did not the ex business journo now TD who’s name completely escapes me at the moment make total fools of FF in a previous government when he rubbished some legislation they were trying to bring in?

@ Ryan Allen

The government is introducing new legislation to curb the press/media into keeping an eye and reporting in the antics of those elected and selected for such government buildings.
They are doing this under “Privacy issues” excuse.

Add to this they have already cut back on information they are willing to release under any freedom of information opportunities available to the people and press – and even when this is possible they are charging €700/€800 for each application – another way of forcing the press to cut back on making information research near impossible and/or intensive.

So NO, this excuse that the media (the fourth estate) will be of use (thanks to the government deliberately) is no longer applicable.

@ Kerry: It is Shane Ross you are thinking of. However he was (and still is) a journalist, so would be part of the “fourth estate” who are supposed to be the watchdog on the other three “estates” – politicians, religious leaders and the judiciary.

@ Biggins31:

1) Going on a story that was published on this news source, the Minister for Justice is reviewing the current legislation. He has not stated whether new legislation will be introduced or not. Given the ongoing Leveson Inquiry in the UK (which indirectly affects Ireland given that several of the media outlets there also operate here) and the RTÉ defamation case earlier on this year, it seems like a good idea to review the legislation.

2) The charges for FOI requests are set out at the link below and nowhere near that mark. Secondly the current government has extended the number of bodies to include The National Asset Management Agency, An Garda Síochána and the Central Bank (second link).

http://foi.gov.ie/chapter-7-charges/
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0707/1224319601528.html

@ Ryan Allen

The REQUEST fees are minimal
.
Those fees you linked to have the following conditions – but you forgot to mention this:
…Any records relating to you personally, whenever they were created.
All other records created after 21 April, 1998.
They are fees for applying for information related to YOURSELF via government bodies who might have information upon yourself and you wish to check such information.

…However for a business such as a media application, looking for information about TD’s, the expenses of the Dail and any other government department and their ever building paper documentation you wish to see, another level of fees comes completely into force.

The bottom section of this will give you a hint: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/national_government/standards_and_accountability/freedom_of_information.html

“A charge applies to most internal and independent reviews (Information Commissioner) concerning access to non-personal records. There is a reduction for medical card holders. THESE WILL BE NOTIFIED TO YOU at the appropriate time by the relevant public body.”

The charges have subsequently been raised again!
Or how do you explain Mr Fleming (as in your link already staing) “€500 should be the maximum charge for an FOI request”

…Guess what!
Its higher. I know. I have made such submissions for information!

@Ryan Allen

I always thought, until lately, in the past year, that F Fail, aherne & co were dangerous, sneaky, short of the truth with the electorate that pays their salaries. But now I feel F Gael are worse. Cunning. Kenny & Co have listened and learned a lot from his predecessors. To me, Kenny is more dangerous. My opinion is, is that the Senead has to stay.

Let the Referendum begin.

Dear Ryan, just to be clear, PERSONAL related request fees are the ones you refer to: http://www.dohc.ie/foi/fees.html

Different ball game ALTOGETHER!

Reduce the number of TDs per consistituency, make the Seanad fully electable by all, prevent the sitting government appointing enough Senators to obtain a majority in it. Then we will have a full system of checks and balances and then the Seanad will be effective….. But the Dail would hate that of course!

1) Several other European democracies function perfectly well without a third branch of government.
2) The Opposition and the Committees need more power, not necessarily the Dáil. For example the Opposition could compel Ministers to explain matters to the house and should be able to propose legislation more often. The Committees should be able to compel witnesses or public servants to attend.
3) Local government should have more power.

Local governments are the most unashamedly corrupt “boroughs” in the country.

You’re welcome.

Great stuff & well reasoned.