TheJournal.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more »
Dublin: 11 °C Tuesday 21 May, 2013

Teachers respond to Taoiseach’s 40-hour-week request

Teachers’ unions say they already work more than 40 hours a week – and more than their counterparts across the globe.

Image: Editor B via Creative Commons/Flickr

TEACHERS’ UNIONS HAVE responded to this morning’s media reports which suggested that the Taoiseach has told Education Minister Ruairí Quinn to extend the working week in schools to 40 hours.

The Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) noted that their members already work an average of 43 to 46 hours per week, while the ASTI pointed to this week’s OECD survey which showed Ireland’s second-level teachers spend more time in the classroom than their foreign counterparts.

The Sunday Independent reported that Enda Kenny has told his ministers to increase the working week in schools and hospitals in order to increase productivity across the public sector. Citing a letter sent to Cabinet members, the newspaper said that the Taoiseach wants an extra €1.7 billion in day-to-day savings to be made next year.

Responding to the reports about teachers’ working weeks, a spokesperson for TUI said, “An independent survey carried out by Behaviour & Attitudes in 2010 showed that second level teachers were working between an average of 43 to 46 hours per week.

“This will have grown since as a result of increased administrative burdens and further cutbacks to the education system. In addition, teachers are also now working an additional hour per week as part of the Public Service Agreement.”

Those sentiments were echoed by the secondary-level teachers’ union, the ASTI. General Secretary Pat King said,”Irish second-level teachers spend 735 hours per annum in their classrooms compared to the OECD average of approximately 681 hours. Teaching is a frontline service and the most valuable work that teachers do is done in the classroom.”

“The amount of administrative and legal duties which teachers and schools are required to carry out has increased significantly over the past decade. This has happened at a time when resources have been stripped from schools including loss of classroom teachers, loss of specialist teachers, and loss of in-school management posts such as year heads,” he added. “Schools have also lost funding and every teacher is doing more with less resources. The preservation of teaching time remains a priority for schools and under the Croke Park Agreement teachers at primary and second-level are delivering almost two million extra working hours per annum.”

King also noted the number of volunteer hours that teachers put in through extra-curricular activities.

Meanwhile, talks continue at the Labour Relations Commission this weekend between the HSE and consultants. The deadline to reach agreement looms this evening. RTÉ reports that the HSE is determined to cut the overall €475 million-a-year consultants’ pay bill despite consultants’ insistence that they have delivered significant flexibility.

Related: Consultants agree to LRC talks on Department of Health budget>

More: Irish pupils taught over twice as much religion as OECD average>

Read next:

Comments (231 Comments)

  • I wonder whats the chance’s of politicians actually doing a 40hr week in the dail instead of pretending they do long hours in clinic’s, maybe they should consider that when they return from their 8 weeks holidays on Wednesday.

    Reply
    • If you think anyone in Dáil Éireann gets away with working less than 40 hours you’re sadly mistaken. And by “get away with” I mean put in such an effort that will give them a chance of re-election. Politics has a natural incentive for work that no other job has.

      Reply
    • @David Higgins ,I dont think I ‘ll be taking lectures from a Fine Gael supporter that two months ago , didnt even know that the Fine Gael and the blueshirts were connected. But you’ve have described perfectly what drives our right wing career politicians IE: “getting re-elected,” not the welfare of the people who elected them. So according to you David our polticians are working hard 40hrs a week and more but only for their own interests. But we all knew that sadly.

      Reply
    • “@David Higgins ,I dont think I ‘ll be taking lectures from a Fine Gael supporter that two months ago , ”

      You have got to be kidding me ??? Bahahahahahahaha :-)

      Reply
    • Explain this to me so, David. Why, when I was accompanying a school tour to Dáil Éireann, did we have to put up with a cross between a siren and a bell that went on for at least ten minutes all just to summon the TDs away from the bar and into the Dáil chamber to cast their votes? The votes were cast, and they very quickly made their return journey. And it was damn sight quicker than the journey in the other direction. Myself and the other teachers were saying to ourselves that ten seconds of ringing a bell is enough to get even Junior Infants to where they need to be. But these eejits need ten minutes of mind-numbing white noise to get them to budge.

      Reply
    • Maria 16/09/12 #

      David Higgins – totally agree with u. I do not support any political party but my work has exposed me to a lot of politicians. I never would have believed it until I saw it for myself but the working hours per week can range from 70 minimum up to over 100. It is an awful life.

      Reply
    • Gerard 16/09/12 #

      @David

      The only positives I can glean from any remark you ever make is that you probably really believe they are true. You have alot of growing up to do young man.

      Reply
    • Martin 16/09/12 #

      @Maria Do you also work 70 to 100 hrs per week as I’m not sure how you would know how long they worked otherwise. I too have had some connections with politicians and most of the time when they are not in the dail, they are to be found looking after their business interests. One guys staff even sent me up to his pub to look for him, when he didn’t turn up at his clinic. On another occaision I was told a different TD was in the Dail for important vote, but when I went on to oireactheas.tv live he was no where to be seen when a number of votes were called. I know they are not all like that but a great deal are.

      Reply
    • No one in the Dáil works a 40 hour week. 70-80 would be standards for most politicians. I’ve seen cllrs, esp. smaller party ones, that work 6 days a week.

      Getting calls from fucppers at 3 in the morning because they have been caught drink driving and think you’ll get them off. Being a TD from what i’ve seen is as big a bolx of a job as u’ll ever get, unless your a politics junkie.

      That said, i’m still in favour of cutting wages and expenses their.

      Reply
  • I know I’m late to this conversation but can some explain to me how getting teachers to work ‘more hours’ actually saves money? I’m curious. They don’t get overtime so it’s not like it will save that cost. Where’s the savings??

    Reply
    • Can anyone answer me? And why is no-one asking this? It’s one thing trying to save money and that I understand… but why increased hours? I’m not a teacher but the attack on frontline staff sickens me. A cap on all public servants pay and a total overhaul of the welfare system would go a lot further than attacking the people who mind us when we’re sick, teach our children and give people like me the opportunity to open and run a business like I do. If I was a teacher I’d protest any changes as its not your fault yet bigots are trying to blame you. I applaud you. Don’t let the idiots get to you.

      Reply
    • Ralph – fair play for asking a very reasonable question.

      I’ve asked this (in a different way) above. I really don’t understand how this would work. My questions around it are: what would the teacher do during this time? would it just be a case of “clocking in” at 8am each day for 8 hours? Doesn’t that just mean that prep and corrections happen inside this clocked time? Won’t it mean that teachers who are forced to do it all within the walls just don’t want to get involved in extra and co-curricular activities?

      I can’t see that it’ll do anything but keep teachers in schools to do what they already do while eroding things that happen from good will. Or at least lump the extra/co-curricular stuff on the new entrants who’s pay has already been raped while they pretty much beg for a full time job for 4 years before maybe getting a CID.

      Actually – maybe an early poster got this more right than I’ve thought until now – it’s just more fishing to deflect from other, more pressing issues.

      Reply
  • More tripe to keep the focus off the wealthy coming up to the budget.

    Reply
  • My wife is a Primary School Teachers. She is contracted to work 30 hours per week. This is what she is paid to do. She spent just under two hours on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday correcting pupil work and doing prep. That’s eight hours over those four days and she will send an hour or so tisevening prepping for tomorrow.
    So what I am trying to say is she does lots of extra work every week and if the Taoiseach brings this in it will not go down well with her. She already is down 19.5% in her pay.
    How about the Taoiseach proposes to cut the amount of pay on lawyers, where the state spent over 500 million last year. Or how about he doesn’t and ask the consultants to increase their working hours per week by 33%!
    Feic off.

    Reply
    • B Lowe
      The States pay to solicitors and barristers and particularly in the Free Legal Aid Scheme has just gone through the floor with reductions.

      Reply
    • Lawyers, people that prey on business and private individual alike. Look at the worst Ministers that we have had in this country and they are nearly always Lawyers and Barristers.

      Reply
    • @EMD, perhaps you should attend my English class and we can clean up all those nasty punctuation mistakes! I’m contracted to be in school from 7:30-3pm. Where I am, school begins at 8. I have hours of marking and prep to do every evening, staff meetings and parents meetings every week, and an extra-curricular activity to run. If you think we have it easy, you’re more than welcome to come to my classroom and supply teach for a week!

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      Ailish, did I make a comment on punctuation? I’m not a teacher and make no claim to be one so what is with the bitchy comment? So if you are contracted to be in school for those hours does it make you a hero, does it mean you deserve to whinge about being asked to do your job? You do yourself no favours making catty personal remarks about punctuation particularly as this is the comment section of an online newspaper and not Leaving Cert English.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      Oh and Ailish please learn how to reply to comments I hadn’t posted on this comment.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      Ailish, are you teaching in Ireland?

      Reply
    • Ailis are those Bahranian hours?

      Reply
  • Haha. I would love rte to run a programme where these people who think teaching is so easy come in and run a class with the teacher observing from the back of the class for legal reasons. I would love to see that. PE and art would be hilarious.

    Reply
    • sounds like a project ray d’arcy might take on – depending who they get it would pull viewers, lord help the poor children though – ‘no children were harmed in the making of this programme’

      Reply
    • So let me me understand…. Teachers who arent working a full year or day for that matter now want another set of public servants to film someone from the private sector who comes in to do the their work for them…… Sounds like typical teacher thinking alright…. Lets find a way to do less work than we’re already doing…. Classic…

      Reply
  • You would think one of his “advisers” would have looked up the average hours before Enda made an eejit of himself.
    Again.

    Reply
    • The average hours are calculated by self assessment together with their Union rather than objective measurement. It has about as much accuracy as Ivor Callely’s mobile phone receipts.

      Reply
    • It is the teachers union who are being economical with the truth re teachers working hours. 43-46 working hours per week for circa 30 weeks of the year equates to less than 30 hours per week on an annualised basis

      Reply
    • My partner is a primary teacher. The contact time with the kids is about 6 hours a day but there are several more hours planning, correcting, making resources. Most teachers will lol at this suggestion, all it means is that they stay in the school rather than work at home to get the hours on paper.

      The Govt. can pretend it has taken action, and everything goes on as normal.

      One thing that is not bloody normal is the money that teachers put out of their own pocket in to buying resources for the classes.

      Anything to distract from the people at the top in the public and private sector here who are on wages that are completely out of whack with international norms.

      Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants, the 3 most likely to support PD type parties, the 3 professions here that rip off the country, low quality service at twice the price.

      Reply
    • A teacher recently told me he had just gotten full time hours this year, 20 hours a week.

      Reply
    • Whinging teachers. What a surprise. Glorified babysitters repeating mostly nonsensical rubbish. There’s more education on the moon than in an Irish school. My heart bleeds for them.

      Reply
    • Just an observation. Any debate involving teachers, especially when criticism of teachers is involved will it cause teachers to become hysterically puerile, thus frustrating any attempt at reasoned argument. Why (if teachers claim to have a modicum of intelligence) is this the case?

      Reply
    • what about the vote on the Senate that we were to get a vote to get rid or keep same

      Reply
  • This week the politicians want to pick on teachers last week it was the health service next it will gardai prison officers and fire brigade, they put this shit out there everyweek so people will pick on each others professions to take the attention away from the biggest wasters the politicians

    Reply
    • Well said the only thing the government have successfully done over the past few years is to divide the country… Convincing the private sector that the public sector is to blame for the failure of the economy. No one had any issue with pensions, hours etc during the good times. Bit like closing the gate after the cattle have bolted.

      Reply
  • Let the Churches teach religion in Sunday Schools and allow teachers paid by the State to educate children! That will free up many hours for extra curriculum teaching.

    Reply
    • Great idea Brian. There’s a person thinking about how to improve a system. A teacher spending extra hours staring at an empty classroom is useless but could be considerably more productive if he/she had extra time teaching kids academic subjects.

      Reply
  • I’m a Newly qualified teacher and I can say that I disagree with the notion of working 9 until 3. I start work every morning at 8 getting class ready everything set up before kids come in at 8.40. I get 10minutes break at 11 and the on Monday, Tuesday and Friday I get half an hours break on Thursday and Wednesday I get no break as I’m on yard supervision. The children go home at 2.30 put the last kid doesn’t leave until 3.00. Go back up to my classroom and start planning for the next day even harder because I have multi grade. I prepare presentations etc for the next day and my notes and leave school around 5 or could be as late as 6 if I have meetings. The only day I leave after the children is Friday and I finish that work at home. I have to plan all this month what will be covered for the year so that’s extra work I do at home mostly another hour a night so that shows I work over 40 hours. I get paid 400euro a week nothing special and out of that I would spend 20/30 on expenses such as classroom materials or things to use for projects etc. so no I don’t think I only do 27hours a week try living our lives oh and how would you be able to handle 28 r so kids at one time.

    Reply
  • Or it’s called typing on smartphones Chris

    Reply
  • I will not lower myself to the level of debate on here by justifying my work and the time I put in. Suffice to say I have my dignity and will not give it up to a bunch of internet hardmen and women who wouldn’t last a week doing what I do.

    I am not a doctor, a lawyer, a shop owner, a bar man,a taxi driver etc. so I don’t make comments on their work unless I am directly affected by a specific one of them. Some of who on here who think you know it all might want to remember that.

    And just because you went to school doesn’t mean you have the faintest idea about what the job is like.

    And for any of you who are parents I would have thought you would want a teaching workforce that was happy and motivated rather than one sick to the teeth of doing more with less while at the same time enduring the constant sniping of all and sundry who, it seems, think of you as nothing more than a glorified babysitter who should be paid as little as possible.

    Or maybe you just don’t care about your kids?

    Reply
    • I think you should be paid much more. With one condition. You deliver results (in conjunction with parents help of course). If you don’t deliver, you get fired/pay-cut. Teaching should attract the best talent. Salaries should be 6 figures. But the accountability should be there.

      Reply
    • As I said, best not comment on things you know nothing about.

      Reply
    • @ Darren: “If you don’t deliver” – the first sign in your post that you haven’t a clue.

      And I’m not a teacher, BTW – not even close. I’m simply a realist with common sense.

      Reply
    • Alan and Sean? So only teachers have a valid opinion?! sounds like some teachers I used to have.

      And Sean. Should we not expect our teachers to actually be good at their jobs?

      Reply
    • You are welcome to your opinion. As a teacher I can tell you that it is completely off the wall. Don’t bother asking why. I am not debating with people who think they know more about my job than I do. I would never be so arrogant as to presume that I can sort out the HSE or tell an architect how to design a better building so I’m not really interested in the opinions of people who have no training in education

      Reply
    • Darren – to an extent I agree with you but I have yet to hear anyone suggest a fair and comprehensive metric to how well a teacher does their job.

      When you look at things people have suggested in the past you run into the same kind of unreliable areas that people talk about when they mention the idea of teachers marking their own pupils for exams and things like that.

      Of course, in an ideal world there would be no question across these issues but we’re not there….

      Reply
    • Darren, don’t dare suggest accountability – you’ll upset the apple cart. That’s only for those outside the club don’t you know.

      For those bleating on about how hard you work, why do you bother? You don’t need to and what you do is largely pointless considering the pathetic, blinkered state of mainstream education. Oh yes, the time off – I’d better not mention that though as it’s somewhat inconvenient to the smug arguments of the self-assessed martyrs.

      Reply
    • Apple Core, your comments are simply a tirade of abuse.

      Can you constructively suggest:
      How to measure the work of a teacher that takes into account the differences between classes, the fact that the same teacher may not have the same class up to the exam classes, the fact that children are all different with different learning styles, how the area of children with special needs fits in your metric, how behavioural issues and gender difference fits in your metric, how influences outside of school fit in your metric? For non-exam classes how can you measure performance?

      Can you also suggest how long you think you could keep kids in school for during a week and if you expect a 40 hour work week to be all contact hours?
      If you expect all hours to be contact hours then when do you expect preparation and assessment to fit in?

      I’m genuinely asking all these questions and would love to hear anyone’s opinion on how to comprehensively address teacher performance. It comes up time and time again and I’ve yet to hear a suggestion which doesn’t have massive holes in it.

      Reply
    • No I can’t. I don’t have a ‘metric’ or any other buzzword. I was a secondary school teacher myself for five years and it became apparent to me that the system is a joke. I didn’t have answers so I left for a more rewarding career. However, just because I don’t have answers to your (not my) so called ‘metric’ doesn’t mean I can’t identify the problems or have an opinion. I’d certainly pay teachers far less. State-sponsored babysitting doesn’t warrant the money they receive. there’s nothing abusive in what I said. It clearly touched a nerve though!

      Reply
    • I asked the question because I’d like to hear the answer. And while you’re entitled to your opinion of course, I don’t think you’ve only given some negative viewpoints. I thought that seeing as you were so specific in pointing out problems you may also have some solutions.

      Also, if you wanted a genuine discussion you might even try to attempt to answer rather than place others words in commas and call them buzzwords in an attempt to undermine what is a very reasonable question.

      I don’t think anyone in Ireland thinks that the education system is perfect – but so many are willing to lash out at it rather than take an objective look and apply their opinion as to what direction it can go.

      Reply
    • I did answer. I told you I don’t have the answers. I’ll lash out at a system that is patently broken if and when I please. I’ll also criticise teachers if I feel like it. Don’t take it personally, we all make our own choices in life which is exactly why I decided to give up my job as a state-sponsored babysitter and brainwasher and do something else.

      Reply
    • If that’s as much as you put into the job I’m delighted you’re not teaching anymore.

      Reply
    • So glad to have made you happy. Keep clocking up those metric contact hours.

      Reply
  • Why don’t you try doing the job since you have it figured out to be such an easy touch?

    Reply
  • 173 comments on the story about teachers doing more hours and yet only 23 on the story about the government finally returning to the Dail after two months off. Thank god everyone knows what’s wrong with our economy.

    Reply
  • I think Teachers should begin working to rule, this witch hunt of the Public Service needs to be answered.

    Reply
    • No one in any sector should pull such a stunt. You either carry on debating , continue as you are or withdraw your labour. Having some cake and eating little bits of it only develops into further turmoil. No one group should abuse such a position of power. To do so would only further alienate any potential support and play right into the hands of the government. They’d have a field day with that. I can just see Irelands number 1 propaganda peddler,Terry Prone, rubbing her hands with that one.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      And your concern for the children is where exactly in this? Vocation my arse going by your comment

      Reply
    • And there it is… Teaching is a vocation? I never heard any voice calling me – it may be altruistic but it’s not a vocation for most.
      If it do you expect teachers to just take the pain without standing up for themselves? Where does that stop?

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      So you don’t give a crap that your so called “standing up for yourself” is going to have an impact on children? You may not have been called by anything but surely as someone who has responsibilty for small people your first thought should be them? I’d expect the same of a nurse or doctor otherwise why bother? It is a little bit different to a job like a factory where a work to rule will affect profits etc. but children?

      Reply
    • I get what you’re saying EMD but there is a limit. If the gov were to slash teaching wages in half tomorrow would you expect teachers to take it?

      For any job there is a value. If those working it are made feel undervalued then you’re going to have problems. I know that kids would suffer but like what are people supposed to do (in any job) when pushed hard? I’m still coming at this from a(n unemployed) new entrant perspective so please don’t imagine you’re talking to a 40K/yr teacher here!

      What I find a bit amazing about all this is that when nurses strike they get big support because people have direct dealings with those frontline staff. It seems very different when teachers talk of industrial action.

      Again though – I’d like to see change, I just don’t think this particular proposal is of any value.

      Reply
    • working to rule means just that, if you get paid for 40 hrs you do only 40 hrs, no working in your own time for any reason, what is wrong with that?

      Reply
  • The sad reality is that most of the people on here who are roasting teachers are either just trolls or are clearly misguided and gullible. education in Ireland is founded on a good will system where teachers are paid for less than half of the hours they actually do. Planning, class preparations, corrections, dealing with incidents etc are all done outside of paid hours. Currently there are dozens of teachers in every school picking up the slack from the post of responsibility moratorium that has crippled schools. Secondary teachers who are acting as year heads, school planning co-ordinators etc, who put in a huge extra amount of work voluntarily to ensure that the highest level of a learning environment is maintained; despite the fact that they have next to no resources and are working in a prefab. Likewise there are dozens of teachers involved with everything from coaching teams to pastoral care all of whom do so outside of their teaching hours! A full timetable may consist of 22 teaching hours but the reality is that any half decent teacher will be easily doing 50 hours a week and coming up to exam time how many teachers will remain back with students to help them finish practical projects or revise work? Sure teachers get great holidays but believe it or not that is because children cannot sit in a classroom for 12 months of the year.
    Currently schools are full of young newly qualified teachers who are not paid for their holidays and are on paid timetables of 10hrs per week, yet in an attempt to prove themselves worthy of getting a full time contract put in huge work in terms of extra curricular activities. It’s time people wise up and realise that teachers, nurses and gardai are not to blame…..

    Reply
    • Well said Joe!! I have said it here before, most people laughed at teachers wages during the good times, nobody wanted to know about a public sector job, but they are easy pickings when it all goes belly up! There is no comparing education to industry, education was never intended to teach people how to get a job or a career, it was about teaching people how to live in the world, in society! Unfortunately we view our world and country as an economy and not a society! Perhaps that would explain the level of violence, substance abuse and just plain bad manners that has increased over the past number of years!

      Reply
    • Imagine not being paid for their holidays!! How do the poor things cope?!

      Reply
  • Wait until they go after the teachers there will be a revolution.

    Reply
  • There are HR managers in this country on 70 k a year, there are marketing managers on the same, there are operations managers on 80-100. There are accountants on 70k+.

    None of these wages are justifiable or make economic sense, yet they are still paid. Why is that. All of the above are none productive staff, they rely on others to actually make the money.

    Reply
  • I’m glad to see that many people can actually see through the spin (from both sides) and see that the measure of a teacher’s work is not about contact hours.

    The 735 quoted is CONTACT hours. Teachers are trying to make the best of the time available to them in the classroom – very challenging in itself. Work practices have changed, new entrants starting wage has been massively reduced and central to the role of a teacher is to monitor progress.

    I don’t understand why people seem to get the idea that every hour of teacher’s work should be logged. The job is about education, not productivity in terms of output – it’s not an assembly line and the “product” is very hard to put metrics on when you look at the effort to do more than just academia. The annual salary is about getting taking on all aspects of the responsibility of teaching and ensuring that the job gets done to as high a degree possible.

    Many people are paid this way – if a job is to be done and there’s a price to get it done then that’s it, it’s not about hours then, it’s about value.

    Stories like this are designed to pit public and private service against each other – and it sadly works because people are so short sighted to look at it in a broader perspective.

    I’ve worked in the private sector for 12+ years in both unionised and non-unionised jobs and when made redundant went to college to study to become a teacher. If anyone thinks that teachers have it handy, they need to try homeschooling – or maybe just open their eyes.

    Reply
    • What are “contact hours”?

      Reply
    • Well done Tomy, up to 8 comments now and you had the neck to comment that I had been repetitive with 2 posts! You are clearly either a teacher or a full time employee of the teachers union and are defending what is a ridiculous situation where teachers work less than 30 hours per week on an annual basis!

      Reply
    • Ok Paul, well done, you got me….

      I’m a qualified teacher – an unemployed one who got little or no support through college (before that’s attacked) after being made redundant from my private sector job of 12+ years.

      And while I’m unemployed, I’ll be taking the bus over to Limerick Educational Centre on Thursday evening to attend the first of the required courses for the national induction programme (for which I won’t be paid) so that I can meet the requirements of the teaching council conditional registration (which cost €90).

      My agenda is to hope that the effort I have put in over the last 4 years serves young people well on a salary which is much reduced compared to those who started a year before me.

      Yours appears to be (by the limits of your comments so far) to attack me and to measure education by “clocking in”. Keep the blinkers on pal.

      Reply
    • @Sean – contact hours are the hours spent in class.

      Reply
    • Thank Tony.

      Reply
    • * thanks. “FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU”

      Reply
    • Being self employed I work up to 80 hours, including my admin, accounting and requisition and barely making it due to his downturn.

      To hear some spoiled teacher moan about how hard things are while I have barely enough to keep the bank from kicking us out of our home makes me want to vomit to be honest,
      Irish teachers are spoiled, have a stupendous amount of free time and should get to grip with the fact that the golden age is gone.

      Earlier someone made some great comment:if you claim to make the hours, clock them at school and proof you do what you say!

      I’ve never seen teachers at school at 8am and leave at 6pm, I see them in offices and other work places all the time!

      Reply
    • @ mark… I’ve yet to read one comment from a teacher who is “moaning about how hard they have it”…. Instead what I’m reading are comments from teachers who feel forced to justify their profession. Teachers who are being attacked by people who clearly have no understanding of what their position entails and who are basing their stance against the teaching profession on jealousy. Without a doubt the current economic crisis has left you having to work far harder just to ensure your businesses survival. But this does not give you the right to question something you have no first hand knowledge of. The first thing you need to know before you pass any further comment is that, the actual hours teachers work and the hours they are paid for are two very different things.

      Reply
    • @ Joe…..The first thing you need to know (and i expect you already do) and accept is that when looked at over an annual basis the average weekly hours worked by teachers (contracted/paid and the ‘unpaid’ ones prepping for classes, marking homework etc) is less than 30 hours per week. This is absolutely farcical and if you cannot see why people working in the private sector are annoyed at this and the uproar from teachers when they are asked to work more hours then you are either blinkered or blind

      Reply
    • @ Paul:
      “when looked at over an annual basis”
      Straight away your argument is void – teachers get paid for 9 months only – but their wages are spread out over 12. Working the average out over 52 weeks gives you a false result – so your whole point is based on a dud number… good job, genius.

      Reply
    • I will direct you to several other comments which outline that teachers are paid for WHAT THEY WORK and are NOT paid for a summer off.

      Reply
    • @Paul I’d love to know where you actually came up with you figures. I know exactly how many hours a teacher works. I am a secondary teacher myself… One who is currently voluntarily filling the role of a yearhead because if I do not the system in which I work will not run effectively or efficently. This involves spending the time I should have for class preparation and corrections meeting parents organising study skills for students, dealing with discipline issues of which there are plenty. I therefore have to spend hours on end at night catching up on planning, class prep and corrections. I currently co-ordinate all our Gaa teams as well as personally coaching two hurling teams. Every year I give up three or four days of my holidays to take a group of students on a school trip which I personally spend months organising. Two years ago I ran a three day national film festival through our school, that took about 5 months to organise. Most years I make a short film with a group of students all of which is filmed outside of school time. By February I’m spending on average another 6 hours a week staying back with my junior cert class working on their project work. A side from all of the above not a week goes by without having to deal with a serious issue that requires an additional few hours meeting with the relevant authorities and parents. I currently do 33 further unpaid hours work thanks to the croke park agreement and have a take home pay which is less than I did 5 years ago. I have a department budget that does not cover a quarter of what is needed to fulfill my subjects curriculum and teach in a room which can barely accommodate the sizes of my classes and will be working in a 40 year old building which will have the heating turned on for less that an hour a day throughout the winter.
      But I guess your right, I’m clearly not carrying my weight and considering all the bonuses, overtime, company cars and raises I got during the good times.

      Reply
    • Fair play Joe. So if you add up all the voluntary hours you do with school related stuff and your ‘contracted hours’ and divide by 52 weeks do your average weekly hours even come within 25% of the 40 hour week regarded as the ‘norm’? BTW I work in the private sector for a large multi national company and am ‘contracted’ to work 48 hours a week but actually work 60+ hours per week excluding commute (70+ with commute) for 50 weeks per year so this rubbish about it being a new phenomenon to be asked to work ‘unpaid’ hours and this phenomenon only affecting teachers is enough to make those of us in the private sector retch at how completely out of touch with the real world our teaching profession are

      Reply
    • @ Paul … Incredible despite not having figures and ignore what was pointed out to you by several posters, you actually still managed to come up with the average number of hours I work. Then you include your commute in your own hours! Where do you think I live? In the shed at the back of the school? Hilarious.

      Reply
    • @Joe…incredible indeed that you did not bother to enlighten us as to whether your average weekly hours (factoring everything in) comes close to 40 hours per week? BTW I actually gave my average weekly hours with and without commute but true to type you ignored that as it did not fit your agenda and/or reply! BTW this BS about 9 months pay over 12 months is a red herring. The reality is that teachers get paid every month for 12 months a year every year no matter what way you or your unions spin it

      Reply
    • @Paul actually the way teachers are paid is in the public realm … An hourly rate by their contractual hours per working week plus their qualification allowances paid over the duration set out in their individual contract. So basically if your on a full time contract your wages are when you earn during the working year paid over the calendar year. It’s not spin it’s fact. My own exact hours are not something I normally keep track of because it is pretty much irrelevant. It’s not like I get over time for it. The work has to be done regardless. Considering I currently do an estimated 60plus hours and am paid for 22 I’ll leave you do the math.

      Reply
    • @Paul – here it is lined out for you….

      735 contact hours + other duties NECESSARY (not desirable – necessary) to any form of education = 27418 starting salary currently.

      I call bullshtt on your claims of being contracted to a 48 hour work week by the way. 48 hours is the max average you are expected to work through employment law. You will say, I’m sure that “going above and beyond” is what you need to do and I’ll call bullshtt on that too. If you’re doing 60 hours a week and you are using that as an argument then you’re a fool and being taken advantage of while you expect teachers to babysit for you.

      http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

      It’s amazing how hard done by people are while they allow themselves to be so helplessly ill informed, yet paint it on others that it’s “poor me”…..

      Reply
    • @ Joe…you can call BS on whatever you want, if anything it shows how utterly out of touch you and your profession are with the real world. BTW I never played the ‘poor me’ card and tbh I am just grateful to have a job when over 400,000 people are on the dole. As another poster has pointed out the purine and hysterical reaction of your profession to suggestions that you should begin to work something approaching the norm does a disservice to your profession

      Reply
    • @Paul… I didn’t ‘call bullshit’ on any thing, (that’s a phrase I particularly dislike) nor am I looking for your vote of sympathy. Simple put I am informing you of the actually reality of the teaching profession… Something you clearly have very little understand of. Likewise I too am delighted to I’ve a job… Believe it or not unemployment is quite high among qualified teachers too. The point of the argument is fundamentally simple. Formally structuring a teachers working week to 40 hours will not increase productivity because almost all do more hours than that already, instead it will result in an even more unmotivated and unhappy teaching workforce who will be less inclined to voluntarily donate their own time to improving a child’s development and well being through extra curricular activities etc. And in addition to this it will do nothing to improve our countries economic position. There are no savings to be made. All it does is distract from the governments failure to provide suitable school infrastructure and services to children that need it most, how many children with special educational needs have lost out on resource hours, on SNA’s? How many schools are over crowded and understaffed? There are no savings to be made or additional productivity to be gained by increasing teachers contractual hours! But if it helps you sleep better at night knowing that the teachers are being punished for a system that fell asunder due to the greed and mismanagement shown by in majority by the government and the private sector, then that’s all that matters!

      Reply
    • Joe, your argument is weak. Like the majority in your profession. Repeaters not educators. Responsible for putting children in boxes so they’ll be good, unquestioning citizens once they leave the big babysitting club. “But we work so hard” they cry. Not in comparison to the average worker I’m afraid. Another bunch of unaccountable, overpaid, mollycoddled, state-employed whingers with an inflated sense of entitlement when they create nothing and contribute little. The martyrdom is sickening.

      Reply
    • So James – with the education system so worthless you must have figured that out by your 2nd or 3rd kid? did you homeschool the last 2?

      Reply
    • Tomy, I figured it out far sooner than that. I was a teacher for five years so experienced it all first hand. I made the decision to switch careers (and country) and my children were and continue to receive their education abroad.

      Reply
  • You all do realise that teachers are only paid for 9 months of the year, and this is spread over 12 months. We are all expected, quite rightly, to assist in extra-curricular activities and preparations, without quibble. Only a certain percentage are lucky enough to have full permanent hours, while many others are forced to make up the shortfall working in a different venue. So it’s not all ‘roses’ on our side!

    Reply
  • Anybody know how long the working week of an invisible bond holder is! How many hours do they put in so that all the previously non existent money gets printed and the tab stuck on to my incomes tax bill. It’s not teachers fault we’ve got a useless puppet government so stop buying the divide and conquer tactics of them. How many hours a week do our politicians put in to do nothing except impose the will of bankers on us so as to retain their position if privilege, that should be the question.

    Reply
  • I work as a teacher in England. I get into work for just after 7 each morning and often leave just before 6. I go home and do more work. I easily work 50 plus hours a week and have less holidays than teachers in Ireland. I know that most Irish teachers do work very hard but there a large minority who are coasting. They ate causing an image problem for the rest and unions are not helping by not dealing with the right issues! To them I say, I’m willing to their jobs for longer hours and less pay!

    Reply
    • For the love of God Criostoir, please tell me you are not an english teacher?

      Reply
    • Mick 16/09/12 #

      Well done. Says it all really, proper real life comparisons at last. Any arguments out there??

      Reply
    • I’d be the same as yourself Críostoir – I’d love to see the school year spread out a bit further and real change to LC & JC that could make use of some extra hours. Personally I think the new entrant monies have been hit too hard though.
      The unions’ idea of solidarity needs some kind of shift in perception too.

      Reply
    • I’m sure there are plenty of teachers in eastern Europe who would gladly move to England, take over your job, arrive into school at 6am and leave at 7pm, and do it or half your pay.

      Then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding a few Africans who would do the eastern Europeans job who just took your job and go to work earlier and leave later and work for less.

      Pathetic post.

      Reply
    • I’m sure there are plenty of teachers in eastern Europe who would gladly move to England, take over your job, arrive into school at 6am and leave at 7pm, and do it or half your pay.

      Then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding a few Africans who would do the eastern Europeans job who just took your job and go to work earlier and leave later and work for less.

      Pathetic final sentence

      Reply
    • Eric, there’s a big difference between talking about immigration and an emigrant returning home to where employment obviously wasn’t available after qualification.

      Reply
    • Stay where you are Críostóir… You could single-handedly destroy the British Empire…

      Reply
    • English schools finish at 3pm every day. Irish teachers work longer hours and teach more classes per year than their British counterparts. Yes, English teachers are paid less but when you see the resulting poor educational standards and demoralised workforce you really have to wonder what the point is. As for your early starts and late finishes – we all put in the work. I would also argue that coping with the insane bureaucracy of the English schools’ system is hardly a productive use of time.

      Reply
    • Tim, you speak of the poor educational standards in the UK. Ireland is fast heading that way.

      Reply
    • They certainly will if Ruairí Quinn’s plans to get rid of the JC go ahead. The system, as it stands, is old-fashioned but fair. Replacing it with one assessed by the kids’ own teachers with little or no moderation will make a mockery of our educational system.

      Reply
  • Guys go out and enjoy the sunshine, seriously

    Reply
  • 735 hours is literally half of the hours I am expected to work annually. Unions trotting out figures that may or may not be true will only fuel the fires of the anti PS brigade. Some teachers do work long hours, but not all. So what needs to happen is that all hours, voluntary or otherwise should be formalised and officially counted.

    Reply
  • I’m not too bothered either way about how much time teachers work. My biggest worry is the total lack of spelling and grammatical ability of school leavers, especially in the last few years. The basics seem to have been completely ignored. It is frightening that after approximately 14 years in education, people still cannot use simple words such as , their, they’re & there in the correct context. As for your & you’re….don’t get me started. Teachers, if you were being paid on the quality of your pupil’s spelling then I’m afraid you would probably owe the state money.

    Reply
    • What if I were to tell you… that not all students are created equally?

      Reply
    • Sean. This is basic english we’re talking here, not nuclear physics. There can be no excuse for so many people leaving school without the ability to spell.

      Reply
    • They can only be shown so many times though, before you need to move on. I have excellent grammar & spelling – I pride myself on it. I was in the same class, and had the same teachers, as many of my classmates who don’t – I see them on Facebook saying “their”, “weather” and “pacific”, instead of “they’re”, “whether” and “specific” – yet they were taught it the same way I was. Your argument holds no water. You can only drill it into an idiot’s brain so many times before you need to move on for the sake of the rest of the class. They either get it or they don’t – they’re either paying attention or they’re not. It’s a simple concept. A teacher can’t just move the class at a speed to accommodate the lowest common denominator(s).

      Reply
    • Sean. So basically what you’re saying is, if a pupil is weak then they get a ‘three strikes and you’re out’ rule? Teachers have a duty to persist with pupils who need the extra guidance, not just help the stronger ones. The grasp of spelling comes before secondary school and this is why I believe that the onus is on primary school teachers to ensure that before a pupil enters secondary school they are equipped with the tools to learn. Primary school is the bedrock. If we were to use your logic, we may as well let the weaker kids out to the schoolyard all day, is this what you propose we do with those children who require more patience?

      Reply
    • “So basically what you’re saying is, if a pupil is weak then they get a ‘three strikes and you’re out’ rule?”

      I didn’t say that at all – I didn’t even imply it. Nice strawman argument there.
      I’m being realistic – your solution is great in an ideal world with unlimited resources and individual tutors assigned to weaker students. But in reality, like I said – we don’t have that luxury. Each class of 30 kids in primary school gets 1 teacher to cover 7 or 8 subjects. If we kept to your standard of everyone’s grammar & spelling being up to par by the time they leave primary school, it’s not realistic, viable or practical within our current schooling system. SO how long do you suggest a teacher spends working individually with 3 or 4 weak students who can’t grasp basic grammar, while the rest of the class wait to move on?

      You’re demanding teachers do X, Y, & Z, when they can only operate within the funding and resources they’re given, and the practical issues that arise from dealing with 30+ kids not created equally. Get real, FFS. It’s a fantasy land you live in. I’m not even a teacher, but I feel sorry for how misunderstood they are by back-seat critics like you.

      Reply
    • To be fair Chris, Parents are pretty well placed to address this too, whether that be to point it out to teachers that it is something that concerns them or to help their own kids.

      I’m not trying to pass the buck but trying to ensure everything gets picked up in a class of 30 ish is pretty hard. If parents notice something like that while helping in homework, surely it’s reasonable to point it out to the teacher as an area of concern?

      Reply
    • Chris if they do that then they’ll probably drag the rest of the class down to their level. Why don’t the parents give them a bit of extra tuition? I remember when I was in primary school every night my mother wouldn’t let me leave the kitchen until I could spell out loud a list of words.

      Reply
    • Tommy & Felix, I completely agree that parents need to step up. Sean, I reiterate my earlier point, in that we are not talking about nuclear physics or complex equations, I’m talking about BASIC spelling. Primary school is where children are supposed to be equipped with the basic learning tools required in secondary school and hopefully on to 3rd level. If you were a builder would you put the roof tiles on before you had the foundation in? This is not a dream land I’m living in and I understand that there a re differing levels of ability, but we are talking about the fundamentals of grammar, I don’t expect primary school teachers to produce qualified scientists by the age of 12.

      Reply
    • Think of it like this Chris, would you like your child to be held back because a teacher can’t move on until one kid that isn’t as bright as everyone else gets it right? I don’t think so.

      Reply
    • No Felix, I would not like to see ANY child left behind. There will be plenty of opportunities in the future to put people down and exclude them.

      Reply
    • He hasn’t thought about that (or any other) scenario, Felix. He just wants it done – reality doesn’t come into it.

      Just look at all of his replies – he just keeps going around in circles & reiterating WHAT he wants done, but offering no solutions for HOW it can be achieved within the current resources provided to teachers.

      Reply
    • Chris – you’re completely missing all of our points. Nobody here would like to see any child left behind – we agree with you. But that’s in an ideal world.

      1 teacher + 30 pupils + 8/9 subjects + a curriculum to cover in an academic year, means you cannot keep going over the same things with the same kids if they don’t understand it. Otherwise, the other 95% of the class get held back. That is REALITY. If a kid can’t grasp it, you need to move on and simply advise they’re parents that extra time needs to be spent by them helping their kid getting brought up to speed.

      Reply
    • Sean. I’ll say it again because it doesn’t seem to be sinking in for you. Is it too much to ask that after FOURTEEN (14) years in mainstream education that a person would have a basic grasp of grammar and spelling? If you think that this is too much to expect then you have very low standards indeed.

      Reply
    • Chris – it’s really sad that you have to move the goal posts to make your point. In your first post, you said “The grasp of spelling comes before secondary school”, and we based our entire discussion on that, and now you’re trying to include secondary school.

      Move on – you don’t get it. I too would like to see everyone with basic grammar – we agree on that. But I’m being realistic by saying that you can’t blame teachers for this – some students are slow and some don’t want to listen, and at the end of the day, the teacher needs to move on.

      It’s really sad that you start the conversation about primary schools, and then you try to move the goal posts to make it look like my standards & expectations are lower – really sad. You were the one who made this discussion about primary school only. The proof is above.

      And finally; you have still offered no solutions for HOW to achieve this – you just keep saying WHAT you want to achieve – so you essentially offer nothing to the discussion other than demands. Demands are easy to make – solutions are not.

      I bet you also want tax cuts, more jobs to be created, better transport & infrastructure, and more funding for everything yeah? Wow – you’re such a forward thinker. But how can this be done? Doesn’t matter, eh?

      Reply
    • Sean. I have not changed my viewpoint in any way. Read above. What I have said is that it is a crying shame and a terrible indictment of our education system that pupils can spend 14 years, on average, in the Irish education system and yet still not be able to spell. Most subjects are taught through the english language and therefore this should be the foundation for future learning and thus be focused on in primary schools.
      As for moving the goalposts…well I believe you may be guilty of that. I have never mentioned ” tax cuts, more jobs to be created, better transport & infrastructure, and more funding for everything yeah?”.
      Changing the subject does not make you clever, it nullifies your argument.

      Reply
    • Christ must have been left behind in school :(

      Reply
    • Sean. You’ve heard the phrase ‘Never run before you can walk’? Am I to take it that you want to see most kids sprinting and the remainder on crutches? I’ll let you think about that for a bit, yet I fear you will misconstrue it, as you have done my entire argument.

      Reply
    • Large classes,lack of resources, restrictions on training in proven literacy programmes such as Reading Recovery… Need I go on?

      Reply
    • Let me summarise my frustrating discussion with Chris:

      Chris: all kids leaving school should have good basic grammar and spelling.
      Me: I absolutely agree – it certainly would be ideal – but there are a lot of variables in the current system that prevents that from happening [lists them in detail].
      Chris: [strawman] So are you saying we should leave some kids behind?
      Me: No. I didn’t say that.
      Chris: [strawman] Do you not think ALL kids should have basic grammar skills leaving PRIMARY school?
      Me: I do – I’m just saying it’s not realistic.
      Chris: you have low standards if you do not think kids should be able to spell after leaving PRIMARY school.
      Me: I never said that – I merely presented a tangible list of obstacles that prevent it from being a reality – funding, class sizes, resources, differing aptitude of kids, etc.
      Chris: [ignores list again] Why are you saying kids shouldn’t be able to spell when leaving SECONDARY school??
      Me: Weren’t we talking about primary school up until now? I believe you just moved the goalposts.
      Chris: I don’t own any goalposts – stop saying I own a set of goalposts!!
      Me: It was an analogy.
      Chris: So you want everyone to be able to run before they can walk?
      Me: No – never said that either – but I notice you’re still not offering any rebuttal to my list of obstacles that prevent teachers from achieving OUR ideal goal. I want what you want, but it’s currently not achievable. I’m telling you why and you, for some bizarre reason, keep thinking that means I don’t want to see kids equally educated.
      Chris: Why do you hate education?
      Me: facepalm…

      Reply
    • Sean. I have taken liberty of copying and pasting my original post for you.
      “I’m not too bothered either way about how much time teachers work. My biggest worry is the total lack of spelling and grammatical ability of school leavers, especially in the last few years. The basics seem to have been completely ignored. It is frightening that after approximately 14 years in education, people still cannot use simple words such as , their, they’re & there in the correct context. As for your & you’re….don’t get me started. Teachers, if you were being paid on the quality of your pupil’s spelling then I’m afraid you would probably owe the state money.”

      As you can see, I spoke of 14 years of education.

      I then went on to say that I believe that it is at the primary stage of education where pupils should be taught the fundamentals required to further their education, i.e. the basic grasp of spelling and grammar.

      What do you not understand?

      Reply
    • Chris – complete the following sentence:

      I realise that there are certain obstacles (such as funding, class sizes, resources, differing aptitude of kids, etc) that prevent all kids leaving school with equal and basic grammar & spelling. I’m not suggesting that we leave these kids behind – but I also realise that if a teacher spent too much individual time with these slower students, it would inhibit the other 95% of the class – but my very simple solution for this, despite the lack of any additional resources, would be to…

      Reply
    • You just posted a link to a book with no description, no ratings, and no reviews. Is that really your reply? And is “read this book” really your solution to all of the problems I listed? Get a grip, FFS!

      Reply
    • This book was first published in 1945. It outlines the deficiencies in basic subjects and how teachers can help pupils overcome them. The basics of the english language have not altered that dramatically since then and therefore this would still be a useful tool for teachers to use. It costs next to nothing to buy. As I have said all along, we need to get the basics right first.
      Have a good evening.

      Reply
    • So, “read this book” is your solution to underfunding, budget cuts, large classrooms, differing student aptitudes & attitudes, etc.

      I rest my case.

      Reply
    • Sean since you are determined not to even attempt to understand my argument and just bicker instead, I shall humour you.

      Let us play a simpler game which produces the same result.

      I’ll type a word and you reply with the opposite.

      “Black”.

      Go!

      Reply
    • Here’s the bottom line: I presented tangible problems and asked you to rebut them with solutions – you replied with “read this book”.

      You should be embarrassed.

      Reply
    • Chris – looks at all your posts in this article – add up the red thumbs vs the green thumbs; it’ll give you a small indication of how idiotic, illogical, useless, and nonsensical your posts are.

      Reply
    • “I’m not too bothered either way about how much time teachers work. My biggest worry is the total lack of spelling and grammatical ability of school leavers, especially in the last few years. The basics seem to have been completely ignored. It is frightening that after approximately 14 years in education, people still cannot use simple words such as , their, they’re & there in the correct context. As for your & you’re….don’t get me started. Teachers, if you were being paid on the quality of your pupil’s spelling then I’m afraid you would probably owe the state money.”

      Did you even read it?

      I am not asking for teachers to rid the world of poverty, split an atom or fly to the moon.

      Reply
    • Sean. It really IS that simple. We need to have teachers get back to basics.

      Reply
    • Chris – “get back to basics” is nothing more than a catchphrase. It’s not tangible in any way. It solves none of the issues i brought up. You’ve clearly no experience in the real world or any knowledge of teaching.

      Reply
    • “Chris – “get back to basics” is nothing more than a catchphrase. It’s not tangible in any way. It solves none of the issues i brought up. You’ve clearly no experience in the real world or any knowledge of teaching.”

      Sean, firstly, you replied to MY comment.

      Also, you know nothing about me nor of the experience I have, so I’m not sure that you are best placed to comment on that either.

      My issue is that of the levels of ability in the use of the language itself. It appears that this has been overlooked for far too long. Getting back to basics is not just a catchphrase it is a call to our teachers to focus on getting the fundamentals across to pupils.

      I’m sorry that you find this so difficult to comprehend.

      If it is too much to ask that a child can at least spell correctly upon leaving school then I fear that we must have sadly let our expectations drop alarmingly and rather than being this wonderful ‘knowledge based economy’ we hear so much about, we instead, are in a race to the bottom.

      Reply
    • Lads, at this stage why not just exchange phone numbers?!

      Reply
  • 40 hours per week x 52 weeks is 2080 hours. Teachers are on class for 735 hours where is the rest of the work done. Why not stay in class till 5 do all planning and correction and then go home and during the summer months the department of education can run English classes in those schools for funding ? Private English schools are full every year and we have empty class rooms and fully payed teachers sitting at home ?? Teachers already paid for 52 weeks they should work 52 (well minus 4 weeks holidays ) the same as everyone else

    Reply
    • You said it David, I mean, all this talk of preparing and correcting, how long does it take to correct a two page essay ‘My Summer Holiday’, or decide which ‘chapter’ of Ann and Barry we’re going to do, let’s see, we did 10 times tables today, so tomorrow, maybe 11 times tables? Yes, I am being very simplistic here, but teachers are the biggest whingers out of the private and public sector, incredible victim complex, and to the poster above who mentioned teachers doing courses during the summer, that’s so they can get extra days off during the year outside the standard school holidays, I though teaching was a vocation anyway

      Reply
    • You thought wrong.

      Reply
  • If it included a change in the state curriculum then maybe it should be looked at.

    Reply
  • Teachers may well work ‘on average’ 43 to 46 hours per week but the teachers union conveniently forgot to include the caveat that they only do it for circa 30 weeks of the year! On an annual basis this equates to less than 30 hours per week. It is time for less spin from the unions and more work for teachers

    Reply
    • Well done paul – you’ve managed to get that said twice now.

      Focusing solely on contact hours makes for a very blinkered argument.

      Reply
    • That’s quite ironicTony considering that you have now posted 6 comments in relation to this article with all of your comments containing the same sentiment and peddling the same spin as the teachers union. The reality is (‘contracted hours’ or otherwise) that teachers lead a charmed life in comparison to those in the private sector and when looked at over an annual basis they work less than 30 hours per week no matter what you spin it

      Reply
    • Actually, you might want to read them again – none of them contain spin, one actually acknowledges that spin comes from both sides and one makes it clear that I have worked in the private sector.

      If you want to limit the job a teacher does to contact hours then that’s up to you – I’m expressing my opinion (which I would express as fact if I didn’t expect the blinkered to attach it as such) that a teachers job extends well beyond contact hours and wondering why it is that so many seem to think it should be a clock in and clock out job – it’s simply not.

      Reply
    • Teachers working hours may well extend well beyond contracted hours per week but they do not extend to anywhere close to an annual average of 40 hours per week

      Reply
    • And still you insist on imagining that teaching is a job that is only about the hours. As explained in other posts it’s 9 months pay spread over 12.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      Tomy, whether it is 9 months spread over 12 or not it is still good pay AND you have a summer free with your own children if you have them. The crappest teacher I ever had to endure as a parent was one who quite clearly was doing the job for the holidays and the convenience of having the summer off when you have kids. The pay is good when compared with other professions and all those “B” posts and course days eh?

      Reply
    • I won’t deny that there is attractive time off – that’s self evident. Personally I’d be in favour of lengthening the school year to accommodate certain post primary assessment changes I’d like to see.

      I just don’t get the bitterness that comes up with this subject. I don’t think any commenter here didn’t know that teachers are off during the summer – it’s not a job for everyone, so why begrudge those who have gone after it? I’m not trying to be argumentative here I’m just saying I don’t understand how people have gone through school with full awareness of the length of the school day, full awareness of what days are off, decide they want to do something else and then complain that they don’t have what teachers have.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      Tomy, I actually like my kids teachers and admire them to be honest but unfortunately I had the misfortune to come across 2 of the worst teachers possible in my time as a parent of a child in primary school. Both these teachers worked to rule, were patently uninterested in kids and most certainly were doing little more than the very basic in terms of lessons, homework, prep etc. Sure these can be seen as the exception to the rule but unfortunately the experience of teaching extra curricular classes in schools has led me to believe there are many of these types of teachers around. What makes me angry is that these teachers are well paid, get the extras that really should be just part of the job, can’t be fired, no accountability to parents and children and then bitch and moan about their job. I mean please what other job would allow all of this to continue and wouldn’t expect some overtime?

      Reply
  • Cowan was THICK.
    Kenny is DUMB AND DUMMER

    Reply
  • If I do a 40 hour a week job and its just under 2000 hours per annum, including holidays. Is this what teachers do? Or do I need a math teacher to explain?

    Reply
  • my son starts school at 9.30 and finishes at 3.00pm which is 5.5 hours a day multiply by 5 is which is 27.5 hours a week and believe me the teachers are gone at 3 well short of a 40 hour week. they get how many months holidays off during the year on full pay its a joke.

    Reply
    • If you think that’s the limit to it then try homeschooling and see how you feel then.

      Reply
    • Paul 16/09/12 #

      Lazy feckers! Sure don’t the fairies who come out at night correct the children’s work, write the plans, prepare the resources and do all the other paperwork while the teachers are at home relaxing in their mansions!

      Reply
    • And they only get paid for the hours they work unlike our politicians, with ridiculous expenses and huge salaries not to mention totally unjustifiable pensions.

      Reply
    • Try being a teacher for one week yourself before you make such a comment. You obviously are not aware of the long hours of planning, collaboration and research so that each child’s needs are met. Teachers also attend courses and seminars during those long summer holidays at their own expense to enrich the life of your child.

      Reply
    • Try being a teacher for one week yourself before you make such a comment. You obviously are not aware of the long hours of planning, collaboration and research so that each child’s needs are met. Teachers also attend courses and seminars during those long summer holidays at their own expense to enrich the life of your child.

      Reply
    • I agree some teachers might leave at 3 but that doesn’t mean they have stopped working! I am a primary school teacher with young kids myself. School starts at 9.20, most of us are there a good half hour beforehand. School finishes at 3, I never leave before 4 unless family commitments. I pick up my children, spend time with them and once they are in bed at half seven, I sit down to do another 2 hours. This is nearly every night apart from a Friday night. This is just my story but I know its the same for the majority of teachers. I can’t stand this impression that teachers do a 9 to 3 and thats it!

      Reply
    • Does your childs teacher not prepare class plans, mark homework, do extra classes and supervision? Do you think this stuff just appears out of no where? Seriously, stop and think before making sweeping statements like that.

      Reply
    • Actually no!
      My son primary school starts at 9:20 and only the headmaster will be in by 9. Other teachers start from 9:10.
      Homework is marked in class while the kids work and the fast majority of teachers leave school within ten minutes after 3 or earlier if no kids have to stay over waiting for the bus.
      Excluding breaks, primary teachers have a 25-hour teaching week and I seriously doubt there is another 3 hours a day for preparation involved.

      Reply
    • When do you think the work that’s set out for you child in class is done. or their homework corrected most teachers don’t sit down and read from a book in class it has to be researched and presented to the class in Such a way that the child understands it. A lot of them are still working at weekends setting out work .

      Reply
    • I know, that is like farmers saying that they do a hard job. No they don’t, sure all you have to do is go to the shops to get the milk.

      Doesn’t your son, arrange all the lessons and the plans, create all the resources, correct all the home work etc etc etc.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      I’m contracted to work 37.5 hours per week, I work at the very least 4-6 hours more than that each week. I don’t get the summer off to spend with my children, there are no “B” posts available, no bench marking and certainly no Croke Park Agreement.
      Yes teachers do so called courses during the first 1-2 weeks of the summer but they presdominantly do so to claim their “course days” during the school year. Yes teachers prep for school but once a teacher has been teaching for a few years then this requires decreasing levels of effort. Yes teachers have homework prep and corrections but this is largely done in class.
      Yes some teachers may be in school up to 30 mins before hand but they are generally to be found in the staff room and are most certainly not killing themselves with additional work. most teachers arrive to school 10mins before and like the rest of us working people they have a cuppa and get sorted before actually starting work.
      If their official working hours are school hours plus additional correcting etc. then why can they not stay in school and do their prep etc. until 5pm and then go home which would then be a normal working day? I find it insulting as a parent and friend of teachers that teachers comment on sites like this and try to persuade us they have it hard. Teachers in Ireland need to be properly evaluated on a yearly basis, given warnings for poor teaching, fired if not up to the job and generally kicked into modern life where teachers are expected to perform well in their jobs, are not given additional money for things like yard duty, greenschools etc. I am really happy with my childrens school, have really liked most of their teachers but I still don’t think teaching is a challenging job for the money & perks given even taking into account behavioural problems rife in modern society.

      Reply
    • My wife is in her school at 8 every morning, get the class room set up. As are most of her colleagues.

      Lot of this bitc5ing about teachers and public servants are down to the fact that people in Ireland always prefer to resent their neighbours rather than someone in D4 like Dermot Desmond.

      Look at the tax breaks in the country, were else would they be done? There sure as hell aren’t for the benefit of people on less than a 100 a year.

      If you are so envious of teachers, then get off your butt and become one. There is a baby boom in this country, so unless your love of complaining is stronger than your love of doing you should be fine.

      Reply
    • EMD 16/09/12 #

      But I don’t want to be a teacher and for that reason I didn’t choose to be one. If your wife chooses to be in at 8 then that is her choice just as it is mine when I start work earlier than necessary, it is called having a job and getting your work done. The thing is if I stop getting my work done there are repercussions, if teachers don’t get their work done the only thing that happens is the kids suffer. Teachers really need to face facts that they get paid a good amount for what they do, there are too may extras they get for doing things that are really just part of their job, they may get paid for 9 months over 12 but the salary is better than that earned by many AND the summer months are there to be enjoyed.

      I live next door to teachers, 2 primary and 2 secondary, all would agree that teaching is a great job and that the current system takes the piss in terms of holidays, b posts and hours. Both sets are often off shopping or having coffee in the afternoons once school finishes so if they work at home then that is down to their time management. I don’t care about the public vs private debate I just feel annoyed by the constant whinging by teachers who really don’t seem able to see the bigger picture and worse from my point of view they are not subjected to proper CPD and job reviews. So not only are they well looked after it is also impossible to fire the under performing ones and there are many! Again I ask where are the children in all this, teachers seem to be primarily thinking of themselves on The Journal.

      Reply
    • EMD – I’d like to know what is meant by “a great job”.

      Personally, the limited amount of teaching I’ve done so far has been massively rewarding. It’s also very challenging – rising to that is part of the reward of course.

      I get what you mean about what you are contracted to but in support of my point that it’s more than the contracted hours I’d point out that preparation and correction is contracted but not as part of the contracted hours. Look at it this way; you’re contracted to X hours but those are contact hours – you’re obviously going to have more than that in preparation too.

      I know that’s the “same old stuff” that you’ll always hear, and I’ll admit maybe that I might be being a bit naive as I’m not rightly into my teaching career yet but I think you’ll find many comments of teachers I’ve seen on this and other stories are in favour of change – but the right changes.

      Trying to commit teachers to a 40 hour work week means what? I’m not sure – does it mean anything really? Does it mean all preparation and correction happens in the school? Does it mean teachers saying “if I can’t get home for a few hours now, there’s no way I’m coming in to coach that sports team later”?

      It just seems pointless to me – I stick by it, hours are not the measure of what a teacher does – and even if such an idea were implemented, what would the effect be? I can’t see it having anything but a negative effect. I reckon teachers are willing to change but if the government had any sense they’d take these bad times and use it to put in some real valuable changes rather than this worthless idea.

      Being a newly qualified teacher I can see parts of both sides that I’d like to defend. I think the new entrant money isn’t great at all but that’s a different issue. I was earning more before I got a degree. I’m also wondering if I want to work in a job where my value is constantly called into question. It’s no wonder teachers are defensive……

      Reply
    • Myself and some mates paid a visit to a friend one Friday night while she was living with other teachers. We had intended to hit the town, but the non-teachers among us didn’t realise how inundated with work they’d be. The teachers were working all evening until almost midnight, so in the end we all just stayed in and a few drinks at theirs.

      People who say teachers finish work at 3 or whatever actually haven’t a clue.

      Reply
    • I hear a lot about “correcting”. My two kids 6 & 9, when they have an exam they bring home the results with them the same day. And as far as coming in early & staying back, justdrive by any school 30mins before & after time and count the number of cars !

      Reply
    • Don’t forget to take out the lunch breaks. That takes off another 1hr a day, bringing the total down to 22.5hrs!

      Reply
  • If Irish teachers do work longer hours than our european counterparts for the school year, why do our kids score much worse than theirs? Are our kids stupid? Are our teachers worse? Or do we spend too much time on subjects that don’t matter?

    Just curious!

    Reply
  • If teachers have so many working hours then how come the kids have so mony days off and free time when they should be at school????

    Reply
  • I think I have the solution to this dilemma. Why don’t teachers work the same hours as politicians in that they attend class while TD’s are in the Dail and just say they are doing other important work outside that time just like TD’s do. Then we could do away with teachers allowances and just give them expenses like TD’s get. Based on a lot of the comments in this thread that would do away with the national debt in one fell swoop. This nation saving is no where near as hard as I thought.

    Reply
  • A long winded way of saying NO then…

    Reply
  • So how much per hour of actual class room and work out of the class room is paid to full time teachers? I fear the figure will be rather interesting.

    Reply
  • Enda just wants teachers to do an honest days work for a more than honest days pay!
    What’s the problem?

    Reply
  • @EMD, keep the junk coming. :-)

    Reply
  • How many months time off/holidays do teachers get a year? 4/5 months paid leave. Shocking amount of paid free time.

    Reply
  • Mick 16/09/12 #

    Guys, people are missing the point here. This is not about wat teachers do in side or outside of their contracted hours. The problem here is that they are paid over and above other countries. This needs to be straightened out because it’s a crazy way to run a country. Now all that needs to happen is for the IMF give us a dose of reality and sort it out.

    Reply
    • Mick don’t know why you got so many negative comments have to agree with you completely

      Reply
    • Only appropriate measurement is of wages is purchasing power parity which takes account of cost of living – or you can make comparisons across sectors within a country and compare it with similar trends in other countries – Ireland according to Eurostat is 20% above the European average in terms of cost of living – anyone working in Ireland has to earn 20% more than the Euro average, = Germany by the way, just to retain parity in terms of purchasing power. All these comparisons across countries conveniently obscure this fact. When compared to fellow graduates teachers are worse off in Ireland than their counterparts in other countries. Furthermore in most European countries employers are required to pay a far higher PRSI equivalent contribution and this should be included in calculating salary comparisons since they fund decent social services that save families money on crèches, health, transport, etc) etc) . IF Irish employers were required to pay the European average PRSI or social insurance contribution it would raise an additional 9.5 billion and therefore entirely eliminate the structural deficit.

      Reply
  • At the end of the day its time teachers starting doing a full days work and the next thing to be tackled is the fact they only work half the year. Vastly overpaid and hugely under worked and a sheer brass neck to contradict whats blatantly obvious.

    Reply
  • @EMD. your comments are hilarious. I look forward to reading more of them as im only new here.

    Reply
    • EMD 17/09/12 #

      Top Tip *Learning how to hit reply to a comment will be a real help to you.*

      As a parent, taxpayer and Irish citizen I have every right to criticise or comment on people providing services to the public. Teachers need to realise that at the end of the day they are service providers and as a customer I want good service which means professionals who are subjected to ongoing performance appraisals and are qualified to teach and care for my children. Irish teachers need to realise that on a daily basis parents entrust the care of their precious children to them and hope that you are committed enough to adequately teach them.
      I expect the same effort in that service as I myself give in my work, what on earth is so hilarious about that?

      Standardisation of days should work in your favour if you are all so overworked already? As for extra curricular activity I only know of a single teacher who provided same one day per week, chess which the kids loved, but other than that I pay others for all after school activities. Teachers get paid for doing yard duty on top of their regular pay and yet they still get a break when they go in from the yard, so why are they geting paid extra for working their break when they still get a break? Can I also remind you that up until last year primary teachers would not have staff meetings outside school hours so I had the kids home early the first Friday of every month which meant I was unable to do my working hours on those days. Yeah it is hilarious alright if you are a teacher perhaps.Much as I like my kids teachers I still think they are not given to doing anything other than working to rule and would like to see the standardisation of their hours and proper reviews of their work.

      Reply
    • EMD – specifically on the teacher performance appraisals – I’ve asked the following above and I’d genuinely like to hear a comprehensive answer:

      Can you constructively suggest:
      How to measure the work of a teacher that takes into account the differences between classes, the fact that the same teacher may not have the same class up to the exam classes, the fact that children are all different with different learning styles, how the area of children with special needs fits in your metric, how behavioural issues and gender difference fits in your metric, how influences outside of school fit in your metric? For non-exam classes how can you measure performance?
      Can you also suggest how long you think you could keep kids in school for during a week and if you expect a 40 hour work week to be all contact hours?
      If you expect all hours to be contact hours then when do you expect preparation and assessment to fit in?
      I’m genuinely asking all these questions and would love to hear anyone’s opinion on how to comprehensively address teacher performance. It comes up time and time again and I’ve yet to hear a suggestion which doesn’t have massive holes in it.

      Reply
  • Ok give him the 40 hours and reduce your work load. Simple as…

    Reply

Add New Comment