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Dublin: 8 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

VIDEO: Gerry Adams challenged on economists’ quotes in SF leaflet

A Sinn Féin pamphlet quotes three economists as bemoaning the fiscal compact… but some are actually in favour of it.

Image: Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland

SINN FÉIN PRESIDENT Gerry Adams has been challenged over his party’s Vote No pamphlets for the Fiscal Compact – which include critical quotes from economists who are overall in favour of the treaty.

Sinn Féin’s leaflet includes quotes from four people – SIPTU president Jack O’Connor, the UCD pairing of Karl Whelan and Colm McCarthy, and UCC’s Seamus Coffey.

The UCD pair are both quoted as offering criticisms of the treaty in the pamphlet, even though each is arguing in favour of a Yes vote.

The quote attributed to Whelan is as follows:

… the economics of this treaty are pretty terrible …

…but, as Whelan himself points out on his blog, his full quote – taken from an Oireachtas committee hearing on the treaty – was:

All that said, although I think the economics of this treaty are pretty terrible, on balance, the arguments favour Ireland’s signing up to it.

The comments attributed to McCarthy include the line, “As an exercise in addressing the eurozone’s twin banking and sovereign debt crises, the fiscal compact makes no worthwhile contribution”.

This is the opening line from the second paragraph of a piece written by McCarthy for the Irish Independent on February 28, entitled: ‘A Yes vote is the correct response, unavoidable and in the country’s best interests’.

Although Seamus Coffey has not indicated whether he supports the treaty or not, he has written that there is “little to be gained from rejecting the treaty”.

The leaflet quotes him as telling an Oireachtas committee in February:

Had the Fiscal Compact been in place since 1999, it could not and would not have prevented the crisis in Ireland.




The pamphlet was raised in an Oireachtas committee by Fine Gael’s Paschal Donohue this afternoon, who put it to Adams that Sinn Féin was deliberately using selective quotes because there was a “black hole” in its anti-treaty arguments.

Adams said Donohoe “cannot deny” that the three “eminent” economists had still criticised the economic theory underlying the treaty, and insisted all the quotes were accurate.

“The fact is, he [Coffey] made a judgement on it,” Adams said.

Adams challenged Donohoe to offer counterarguments to the statements included on the leaflet.

“I do acknowledge that – but what I draw to your attention is that they have drawn a value judgement on the treaty,” Adams said.

The economics are pretty terrible, it would not have prevented the crisis, and it makes no worthwhile contribution to addressing the Eurozone’s twin banking and sovereign debt crises.

Read: Taoiseach criticises Sinn Féin for Fiscal Compact legal challenge

More: Gerry Adams calls for ‘austerity’ treaty to be rejected

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Comments (124 Comments)

  • This just goes to show how Sinn Féin do politics and facts.

    Reply
  • What I actually type: I will never vote for Sinn Féin as I distrust them immensely.

    What SF reads:

    David Rochford: “… vote for Sinn Féin…”

    Reply
  • Sinn Fein up to their usual tricks but getting caught out. Funny to think people believe they are honest and that they care. Completely misleading leaflet and yet again, another treaty campaign full of lies and scaremongering.

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  • Regardless of whether or not you agree with the treaty, or indeed the current government, this is just another example of how dangerous Sinn Fein can be. With all their shouting from the opposition benches, theres an alarming lack of understanding on their part of the state of affairs in this country. Much of their policy seems to be based on blatant populism, with no concrete facts to back it up.

    Whether you plan on voting yes or no to the upcoming treaty, surely misrepresentation of facts like this is preventing the electorate from making considered, informed decisions based on realities and facts. Just another example of Sinn Feins mindgames.

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    • So are you saying that u prefer the blackmail tactics that FG Leader Inda Kenny started mouthing yesterday and no doubt will get more intense as click ticks down to voting day.

      Im not voting yes to 20 years or more of borrowing…. Absolute No from me…. And I’m not supporting SF either.

      Reply
    • Kevin 25/04/12 #

      Soooo in your opinion political discourse is “dangerous” hmmmm all I can say is thank the lord you’re not in charge!

      Regardless of whether or not you agree with them we need to ENCOURAGE debate like this.

      Reply
    • Enda Fact both of them said what they are quoted as saying. Also I keep wondering when Populisim (giving in to the will of the people) became a bad thing in a democracy?

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    • I’m not saying I prefer Enda Kennys tactics, and I went to great lengths not to advocate voting one way or another. Taking into consideration the will of the people is important, but saying what you think people want to hear, without backing it up with sound reason, facts and policy is not going to do anyone any good, nor will it help people trying to make up their minds with regard to how to vote.

      Maybe the word dangerous was a bit strong, but these tactics are not helpful to anyone. Just my opinion.

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    • Sorry Kevin, I meant to say that I agree with you that debate should be encouraged, I’m all for that. It should, however, be informed debate based on correct information, not manipulated quotes taken out of context. I’d say the same regardless of which political party distributed leaflets like this, it’s not an attack on SF

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    • Enda “Taking into consideration the will of the people is important” Makes it sound optional, We are at least in name a Republic, a participarory democracy where the will of the people is paramount. We seem to have forgotten this and our elected REPRESENTITIVES think of themselves as our leaders. They work for us and it is high time we rembered that. and terms liks Populist, vote cathing and Giving in to the electorate should no longer be seen as insults.

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    • Again Francis I agree whole heartedly. All I took objection to in my initial post was the way the leaflet displayed quotes which were out of context and designed to manipulate what was originally said, in order to sway the opinion of the electorate. I certainly don’t consider honest debate and freedom of choice to be bad things. It is the right of every citizen to make up their own minds on the day of the vote, the same as its the right of every political party to express their views. My only objection is with the way these quotes were taken out of context in a way that presented the meaning in a different light, as that does not aid honest, informed debate. Again, I apologise if my original comment didn’t convey this effectively.

      Reply
    • Kevin
      I too would love to see a proper debate too. It is a pity that Enda is so afraid of Vincent Brown to accept his invitation to go on his programe ….Says it all really

      Reply
    • Haha Susie, I really had to read that twice before I realised that you were talking about Enda Kenny…. definitely a sign that its time for bed!!

      But you’re right, a televised debate would be great!

      Reply
    • Kevin 25/04/12 #

      Fair play Enda and I agree with you on that point as well

      Reply
  • Karl Whelan and Colm McCarthy may well be conflicted on the FCT. but that doesn’t mean we all have to be.

    Reply
  • So you think a year after year of increased taxes which FG / FF have always done is a good economic policy?, how about allowing the financial system to create the financial mess Ireland is in because both FG / FF have been in power and still over looked it, Even a report from the ECB said it was not all FF’s fault but a lack of economic policy from all the major parties that created the issues.

    Do you think taking money from people through taxes, charges, cuts is good economic policy? leading experts say otherwise because you can not tax your way out of a recession! businesses would not be collapsing if charges and taxes was decreased as more spending that takes place the more revenue circulates through the system and more tax is collected from it.

    How is privatising water good economic policy?
    How is increasing the vat rate good economic policy?
    How is having to hire consultants to do the job of the Government good economic policy?
    How is Ireland signing a treaty that will take more money out of the economy good economic policy?

    Your either nieve or stupid but its clear to see you have some real issues.

    Reply
  • “The leaflet isn’t being distributed Nationwide,it’s being distributed across this State.The Nation,Paschal, is bigger than this State!” Touché Gerry Adams

    Reply
  • This is hilarious. Where are all the shinners from the previous story now? Mary Lou better be careful coming down from that high horse. It’s quite a fall.

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  • And before it’s levelled at me I don’t support Sinn Fein but I support what they are trying to do in this case. And that is look out for the interests of the blind electorate in this country. Even all you FG hacks on here…

    Reply
  • I hope no one forgets that FG/Lab tried without success in stopping the Irish people having a say in this treaty.

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    • That makes absolutely no sense. They said from the get go that if the attorney general said it needed to be voted in, then it would. The attorney general reported saying that yes, it would need to be voted in. So, the government agreed and are now holding it.

      Should they have held the referendum anyway, without the attorney generals advise? I don’t think we can have a treaty for everything European related and on everything. Especially the cost of such to the state is pretty big.

      Anyway, if the government didn’t want the treaty going to vote – it wouldn’t have.

      Reply
    • Eamon Gilmore in front of a Dail committee admitted they sought to avoid a referendum as did members of FG.

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    • It’s on the public record that the Government did their best to avoid calling a referendum.

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    • Kevin O’Sullivan
      Wash your mouth out with soap ! FG/Lab did every thing to prevent this referendum.

      Reply
    • I have washed my mouth out with soap Susie. Said it again. :( So this time, I tried bleach. Who knows, maybe I will agree with you in this post after using a dose of the powerful stuff?!

      Did the government want to hold a referendum? Doubtful, I know I wouldn’t even if the vote was guaranteed in my favour. Its time consuming, head wrecking, and a financial strain on everyone. But, it needs to be done and so personal thoughts aside – you ask the experts on whether or not we actually need to. If they say legally yes because of our constitution, you better damn will get onto it so. If they say no, that’s that then (unless there was a massive public outcry and people wanted their say anyway)

      So, the government said from day 1 – if we are required, it will be done. The opposition said they were not going to hold the referendum, it was a disgrace, bla bla bla. Sinn Fein were gasping for another court appearance and so were threatening legal action once again. Gotta love the shiners, they just cant leave a court room! Anyway, yet again the government stated – If it has to be done, it will be done. We will act on the advise of the AG. Still, the drama lamas were running wild shouting even more nonsensical statements from the opposition benches. Sadly, this is how opposition government works – even if its FG/Lab. *sigh*

      Anywho, the AG gets in contact with the government and breaks the news. A referendum is required. Sinn Fein will need to look for another excuse to appear in court. I’m sure a few thoughts were going to the poor shiners who will have to live another few days before a court appearance – there a lot slower these days for them. No sooner as the AG confirms, the government sprint into action to break the news to the government parties and the people of Ireland. Stunned, the opposition clearly don’t know what has just happened – after all the scaremongering and convincing people they wouldn’t ever call it, they do just that.

      In conclusion on my long winded story telling rant – the government did everything to confirm whether or not it was needed. They didn’t find excuses or try dodging bullets. They went straight to the AG and after her nod, they went straight to the people with the news. No delay.

      Sorry folks, but that’s clearly indicative of a party which did exactly what they were supposed to do without excessive qualm much to the disappointment of the naysayers who said it would never happen and the government would do everything in their power to stop it.

      Reply
    • Kevin
      Just so as you know ,I am not a ”shinner”. I am glad that we are having a referendum and I will be voting No. If anyone is scare mongering it is the Government . They introduced the blackmail clause . Look at the lies that this government has consistently told , the scarey thing is that you believe them. I reckon you will have to live with your own conscience . I will live with my decision and I will continue to vote NO.

      Reply
  • u cant rob the people any more cos they dont have it,and like a dog with its last bit of food if u try to take it he fights back,that day is very close for the irish people.the thing is they will be so angry at that stage all them blood sucking leeches in the dail banks n EU will pay a heavy price for screwing the people,vote NO NO

    Reply
  • “All that said, although I think the economics of this treaty are pretty terrible, on balance, the arguments favour Ireland’s signing up to it”

    This in itself is reason to vote no. Its a disaster of a treaty

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    • The fact that “on balance, the arguments favour Ireland signing up to it” is a good reason to vote no??

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    • mattoid; Its okay. Its the Sinn Fein economic approach. Makes absolutely no sense and people look aghast wondering “What in the name of god are they at now?”!

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    • If the economics are terrible and its an economic treaty then how can it be good, on balance, to vote for it? I mean what spaceship did these guys get off of? If I shoot myself in the head I will die. But on the other hand, if i shoot myself in the head I will never feel pain again, never have to worry about paying bills or the kids education. Never have to listen to some smug asshle economist speaking financial newspeak and twisting his words and arguments so much that I can feel my brain melting as the will to live slowly drains out of my body and I start to plan what to wrote on my gravestone.

      Yep, on the balance of probabilities I’ll just shoot myself then!

      Reply
    • mattoid 25/04/12 #

      Mark, quite simple really, they’re saying that its not a great option but the alternative is worse.
      Unfortunately when our last administration gave away our economic sovereignty and left us at the mercy of lenders they also left us with nothing but a range of bad options.

      Reply
  • I don’t get what the big deal is. These economists think the treaty stinks even if half of them tiredly speak of advocating a yes vote.

    Reply
  • Paul 25/04/12 #

    Sinn Fein’s Aengus “the Wolfe toner” O’Snodaigh has said the misrepresenting of an economist views on the literature was a printing error….

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    • They need a good few more printer cartridges to correct that so :)

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    • Hilarious! Did you read how much An Taoiseach’s office spent in expenses over the past year. €17million reported on Vincent Brown on Monday night! Yeah, you Fine Gaelers are a bloody scream alright.

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    • Did you see the party printing costs from the year before? no? FG=1, FF=2, Labour=3, ULA=4, & Sinn Fein=5
      1 being the highest amount spent on ink 5 being the lowest.

      You have to laugh at peoples lack of intelligence when they quote the cost of ink as a reason not to vote Sinn Fein, while the continuously vote for the same parties who turn their backs on their party policies and election promises.

      Do you think lying about party polices / breaking election promises is less of an offence to the Irish people than how many ink cartages are used? Do your self a favour don’t vote you might actually end up with a party who cares about this country and its people!

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    • Very good Barry. Can you now break that down into cost per TD?

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    • You do know that the ULA are only in the Dail for one year….

      So how did they have ANY printing costs for “the year before”?

      More SF spin

      RE-PAY THE 50K!!!

      Reply
  • Adams, a charlatan and a gangster

    Reply
  • dont forget since fg/lab have taken office we`ve back in recession TWICE

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  • Credit where credits due. You have to hand it to the FG spindoctors, they really are the best taxpayers money can buy.

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    • It was Sinn Féin doing the spinning on this occasion!

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    • I find it amazing no matter how low FF, FG or Labour lie to Ireland. Sinn Fein go one lower…
      Look at their economics policy in the last election. It wouldn’t have passed the a 1st class maths test….

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    • Not really. By AMAZING coincidence on the same day the story about sinn fein challenging the legality of the referendum website due to it’s blatant and unlawful one-sidedness, indas spindoctors pull this little counterargument out of their arses and get fine gael mouthpiece Paschal Donohue to do the neceessary.

      Nowhere on the leaflet does it say the economists quoted either do not support the treaty or intend to vote no on may 31st. It quotes verbatim their opinion of the economic aspects of the treaty: That it makes no difference, would not have prevented the current crisis, and does nothing to solve it.

      Spin, spin, spin. Time for another couple of advisors to break the paycap methinks.

      Reply
    • Ok looks to me like SF quoted what they said as economists and left out what they said politicaly, as they’re being quoted as economists I’d say this is fair comment.

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    • It was also the same day Sinn Fein launched their campaign and leaflet, so it was obviously going to be responded to by the government…

      Sinn Fein did the spinning, got caught red handed, and are now trying to spin the embarrassment away by deflecting and blaming everyone but themselves. Remind you of anything? Oh that’s right, the ink gate scandal! Sure it wasn’t the shinners fault then either, it was the Oirechtas for not stopping them!

      The mind boggles.

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    • How many of us here have been asked to do a job a certain way and said “This won’t work…But if thats the way you want it” The “This won’t work” is the important bit. This is the same thing, And when the suicide pact drags us and half of Europe down Whelan will be the first one saying “I tried to warn you I said the economics were terible”

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    • Great to see the FiannaGael heads out in force. Good to know ye are so rattled. Apparently there was nothing inaccurate documented in the Sinn Féin leaflet. What about all the inaccuracies, scaremongering and lies in the government one.

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    • To quote Reada

      ” Sinn Fein leaflet all inaccuracies, scaremongering and lies.”

      I agree Réada

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    • It’s amazing that the blueshirts are attacking Sinn Féin economic policy (which is actually pretty sound) at the last election when they went around flogging their pathetic 5 point plan promising free GP care, big political reforms and 100,000 new jobs. Fine Gael don’t even have economic policies, they just do what the banks and Merkel tell them.

      Reply
    • Good man Sean Beag. No need to ask what party you support. FiannaGaeLabour? Take your pick. They’re all the same!

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    • Enough of the party political broadcasts, please. Six months ago I was seriously considering supporting and voting for SF as the only party in Ireland that may offer some alternative to the self-centred career politicians currently in most of the positions of power. But thanks to all the SF supporters and mouthpieces who comment on the Journal, your arrogant bullying tactics and constant spewing of insults over anyone who dares disagree with you, your refusal to act like anything other than stroppy per-teens, and your hijacking of every story to push your agenda further, congratulations, you’ve lost my vote. If you’re anyway representative of your party, you’ll have driven the country into the dark ages with six months.

      And before anyone starts to out me as a FG puppet, I’m not. I’m just a p*ssed off former socialist. The FG voices here are just as vexing, the only difference is that, rather than being permanently outraged, they’re smug and satisfied. If the sum of you all is the future of this country, then it’s Game Over already.

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    • @ John. You’re a blueshirt, admit it. The only bullying going on is this government trying to bully people into handing over all our sovereignty to the ECB.

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    • @ Brendan – you’re just proving my point. How the hell do you expect people to vote for your party when you ignore what they say to you and instead state that you know more about them than they themselves do. You have insulted me by calling me a blueshirt, so that’s a clear sign of where my political sympathies lie. I’m sick of the SF arrogance, belittling people is no way to gain people’s support and belief. I will admit that I am more bothered with the SF comments here than the FG, but that’s only because I would have voted for SF, and there was never a chance that I would ever do the same for FG. Go back to picking on the first year kids, it’ll make you feel big and strong. You’re damaging your party, not supporting it.

      Reply
    • LOL.

      John puts forward an opinion based on SF’s negative approach to everything, and the pervasive infantile contributions made by their supporters, as he sees it.

      And within seconds, like a true Whack-a-Mole, waiting to be belted on the head with an inflatable hammer, up pops Brendan.

      You couldn’t make it up.

      Reply
  • I think Adams comes out looking the better of the two. Donohoe is constantly interrupting Adams who didn’t interrupt once. Seems to be a favoured strategy of this government in both the Dail and in committees too shout down opponents.

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  • I just heard the discussion on Matt Coopers show. I have to agree with the SF side, and say that what they published was 100% accurate. All 3 economists all stated economic arguments against voting Yes, and these are the arguments that SF published. The reason the three economists said they would vote “Yes” in the referendum, is political rather than basing it on economic arguments … which is NOT a valid reason to vote Yes for me personally. Its the economy stupid, and i for one dont give two craps about keeping the Governments Political masters happy.

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    • Sorry I hit red thumbs down by mistake :( very true what your saying…

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    • The old SF propaganda machine doesn’t know what the other hand is doing. Thankfully the vast majority can see through their manure

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    • So you’d be ok if i selectively quote you? OK.

      “the three economists said they would vote “Yes” in the referendum”
      “a valid reason to vote Yes for me personally”

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    • Sean, i gave both sides …. I heard what the three economists said in full … You can chose to vote Yes for political reasons, or No for economic reasons… I know which i would vote for. But I am apolitical. You on the other hand are a Political person, through and through, so obviously, you will support the Yes camp. I respect your views, and i hope you respect mine.

      Reply
    • Haha! Nice one Sean!
      Game, set & match :-)

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    • Sorry Cal but you are incorrect. I depise the whole concept of political parties.

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    • So they call these three economists experts, right? Yet, they selectively quote part where they express concern with part of the treaty and fail to inform voters of the overall thought its beneficial to Ireland and the experts advocating a Yes vote. That makes absolutely no sense. You cant selective quote experts like that. These three experts outlined bad points, but even considering the bad points, they recommended a Yes vote. Sinn Fein called on their views as experts, and so, people should be voting Yes seeing as the downsides are not worthy (in their view) of calling for a no vote.

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    • Kevin I think the point is even the Yes experts don’t realy think it’s a good idea.

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    • But, on balance, it is. As in, its far better than the alternative.

      Do we go with the evil or the down right evil? I mean, we all know Sinn Fein do evil but this advise is just cruel.

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  • Who here can openly admit to supporting Sinn Fein and secondly if you do so, why?

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    • Keith ask the question another way ….and i will give you a sraigt answer…

      EG Does anyone support SFs economic Policy?
      Answer, Yes, i do!!!!
      Why? FFg/Labour and FF policies are killing the Irish economy. There are no 2 ways about it.
      SF are offering an alternative similar to the Icelandic model that has seen that country emerge from the same crises that faced this country, and it is working.

      Let me pose a question to you… Do you support FFg/Labour FF economic policy? Can you give one single example in the world, where this policy has been proven to work as a basis for your argument?

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    • I do and because they are one of the parties actually caring about this country and its people. “Your a FG supporter based on your picture” your party cares more about austerity than actually solving the problems, your supported party even tries to blame FF on everything that has happened in Ireland all the while FF / FG / Labour / Greens have been in Government either individually or as a coalition and still run this country into the ground.

      Reply
    • Who here can openly admit to supporting FG, FF or Labor and secondly if you do so, why?

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    • Can I ask Cal and Barry to admit that Sinn Féin is in fact two different parties North and South of the border. They are in a powersharing situation in the North, where they are cutting Billions out of the economy. They support a house tax. They support a water tax. Austerity my eye. They are opposing their own policies in the Republic and are too stubborn to see it. They mis-quoted these economists and were caught red handed.

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    • I do too Keith. At least when I hear Sinn Féin talking about Ireland they talk about its people, they don’t refer to us as Ireland Inc like Enda Kenny. God I can’t stand that phrase. ;(

      I think it would be great to have Sinn Féin and ULA forming our next government. A government that will put people before financial institutions. Also they are the only parties that realise that Anflo Irish debts are #NotOurDebt

      Is that a good enough reason for you, or are you happy to enslave your children because Europe says so?

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    • Ahhh christ MJ, how many times are FFg/Labour going to come out with this crap…. Firstlym, water charges are every on the British mainland. Sf (along with the DUP) forced Westminister to withdraw the proposed charges in the North (they threatened to bring down the executive if the British government tried to introduce the charges). All your other comments, show your total ignorance as well …. yeah, there is a household charge in the North, it covers your Bin Charges, it pays your GP visits, it covers your prescription charges it covers your school feels (including books, uniforms etc) …… What the is your point Einstein..???? More dirty FFg/Labour tactics i presume, beacuse the same question is asked every day on this site…. But dont let the truth hit you on the way out the door… BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!

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    • Oh here we go, one of these. MJ Murphy, could you explain to me why it is Sinn Féin’s fault that there are 2 jurisdictions on this island? Don’t you know that the budget for the 6 counties is decided in London? At least they are trying to rectify this situation, not hell bent on handing over our sovereignty on a plate to Brussels like our current government.

      Next question!

      Reply
  • All three economists should have the right to be represented in the context in which the comments were made . Hijacking is a normal activity from the shinners

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  • Ah to be honest if people are that stupid as to believe in FF/ Labour/Fine Gael – well we’ve not come very far since the civil war really. Morons will be morons!! Can’t think for themselves and don’t know what is good for them.

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  • I really don’t see a big issue here, yes Sinn Fein quoted comments made but as anyone with intelligence can see and has seen the means in which pro FG / FF / Labour supports do is they say they are against austerity and certain policies but then at the end of their speech’s they make suggestions that austerity is the way and policy changes needed, its all in the means of trying to look neutral in their actions while supporting the parties in which they vote for even if they are well aware that they are pushing for what Government wants.

    FF / FG / Greens / Labour are all mirror copies even if their polices are different they all end up following the same lines even if they turn their backs on their promises and party policies.

    Anyone remember all the lies FF / FG / Greens & Labour have told over the years? The people do not forget!

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  • *to

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  • Hmmmm dont know how that duplicat comment happened :O(

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  • I cannot trust Sinn Fein, to tell the truth therefore i will vote yes as i trust the government

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  • Bit of an oul woopsy. Someone did not do their homework. Suppose its better than being bare faced lied to

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  • jus so you all know the household charge up in the north also covers ur bins being emptied and it also cover school buses and school books and its a fairer system than the eu muppets down here are doing and dont forget it was fg/lab that allowed and support the blackmail clause in the esm treaty theres a lot of blueshirts on here tonight ye have been quiet for a while did enda let ye out for a while???

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  • Typical Sinn Fein really. At this rate I will withhold my vote in the next general election.

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  • i see all the fg/lab supporters are out in force tonight and its a school night tut tut tut

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  • Shell to shore

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  • We could print our way out of this financial mess? Got to love the shinners.

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  • oh,dear. Must have touched a nerve there.

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  • its easy to say no…what have s/f actually said that is any way practical or achieveable when it comes to economics or effective goverment in the republic?

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  • Gerry ‘line my pockets ‘Adams migrating southwards with his witch doctor politics and bandwagon of British agents evangelising the lost causes with his hocus pocus republicanism an anathema to the ideals of tone and pearse but delivering
    For his British masters.

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  • Most of these economist did as much damage to the economy as the shinners. Although I think this government is the one we’ll have to put up with for next 4 years, I’ll still be voting NO. Please God whatever happens the Celtic Bear will have begun in 4 years time.

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  • Boom! Lawyered!

    Reply

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