Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
A COMMUNITY GARDEN in Dublin has been closed by a local Catholic church after a long running dispute.
Families say they were shocked to find padlocks on the gates when they went to tend to the garden.
The garden in the Balgaddy area of Clondalkin has been used by locals over the past number of years and was previously a wasteland.
Local families had been using the plot it to grow plants, flowers and fruits, it also has a kids corner for children to play in.
Lucan South Parish says the use of the land for the community garden was a temporary measure, adding that “dialogue between parish representatives and community garden representatives has been ongoing for over two years”.
However on 25 June, this sign was erected in the garden:
A padlock was then placed on the gates to stop the community from entering.
It’s understood that the padlock and signs were removed for a time but have now been replaced, leaving the community locked out once again.
In a statement released to TheJournal.ie the Parish Pastoral Council of Lucan South stated:
Lucan South Parish needs access to this portion of land to properly plan for and support a wide variety of parish and community groups, who regularly use parish facilities.
However, Sinn Féin councillor Eoin O Broin has questioned the legality of the action, stating the lands are in fact owned by Dublin City Council.
“The land in question was subject to a Section 183 disposal by South Dublin County Council in 1997. When the elected members took that decision to transfer the land to the Laurence O’Toole Trust and the South Lucan Parish there were a number of conditions attached included the payment of £18,850.
To date this money has not been paid and as a result the title deeds have not been transferred. This means that title for the lands is still held by South Dublin County Council.
A council spokesperson confirmed to The Dublin Gazette that, “The council remains the legal title owner at this time but St Laurence O’Toole Diocesan Trust have an interest in the land.”
Community activists have called on the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, to intervene.
Workers’ Party local representative, Lorraine Hennessy, said: “When families arrived to tend the garden earlier this week they were shocked to see large signs stating that the area was private property and padlocks on the gates.
The community garden is the only place where many local people in Balgaddy regularly meet each other. It was the first focal point for breaking down the barriers within the community, within the different estates and for people from different backgrounds.
She added that, “Community activists have repeatedly attempted to reach an agreement with the Church which would maintain this resource for the use of local families but this has been to no avail.
“We are now calling on Archbishop Diarmuid Martin in intervene and stop his organisation from destroying the garden until a fair agreement is reached that respects the rights of the local community.”
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
there is more to this than meets the eye
“…and so the lord SLP sent them out of the garden” Something tells me there’s a snake in this story too.
What a depressing story, and it is even more sickening as the Catholic Church certainly owes the value of that property in compensation to its many victims of physical, emotional and sexual abuse….
Common sense would dictate that this land is public land and belongs to the people. The church needs toremove those locks and apologise to the local people immediately.
The church has always loved a good piece of land…..
Also, with the Church having a bill of £18,850 – that’s the value of the land in 1997. They haven’t paid it in 1997, so why should they benefit from 1997′s price levels?
In 2015, in the suburbs of the capital city, it’s surely worth a hell of a lot more. Pay the bill at 2015 prices, or hand it back to the council for it to be allowed to continue its good public use.
Its great to see Christianity working.
The church endearing themselves to the people again. No wonder it’s a dying institution.
This is a disgrace. The people of the area have done a fantastic job with the garden and also have given many youth in the area something to do and something to be proud of in an area where they were promised many recreational things and were guven nothing. And before you all start shouting at me I’m not from the area but I take a keen interest in people who try to better their areas.
why is this even news? The Diocese don’t even own the land. Instead of pussyfooting around them why don’t the council take down the padlocks and tell the Church to stop interfering with Council property? Ridiculous how much bowing and scraping is done to these shower of bast*rds.
Has the land suddenly become valuable? Are developers hovering? Why do they want them off the land? The best solution is for Dublin County Council to restate theur full ownership legally and leave the gardens for the common usage of the local people who want to plant it and maintain it as it is. It was wasteland previously. So no one wanted to do anything with it before the families took it over. what has changed?
@catherine
“The best solution is for Dublin County Council to restate their full ownership legally and leave the gardens for the common usage of the local people”
A likely scenario.
I live at the back of neilstown church and credit union where there is a plot of land ,the priest sent around letters to all residents with back gates leading on to the land to close up gate ways or they will do it .the priest says the land is owned by the church and are selling it to the credit union,on the understanding the gates will be blocked
Go home yank. T’is my patch.
How to lose even more support….dont they know they are not in chargr anymore?
Same old ding ding from the righteous holy Joes
To be fair. I can bet you the people who don’t want the community using it are the statue kissers who love to show off their false piety. Genuine Christian people would be delighted the community are using it but hey, Genuine Christian are going the way of the Dodo here.
I ‘ll say a prayer this gets resolved ….. done.
You say a prayer and I’ll light a candle, that’ll solve it.
Are you sayin your candle > my prayer?
“Is there anything to be said for saying another mass ? “
Why is the Catholic Archbishop being asked to intervene? This is a legal matter regarding the use of civic land and Ireland is not ruled by canon law. The land is owned by SDCC.
Proper order.
Who are these people?
The Church was very charitable to them and now they think they own the bloody place.
Squatters, that’s the term for these types.
Wonder do any of them go to mass and support their local church? I doubt it very much. Probably more interested in filling their shopping trolleys with drink on dole day.
And it wouldn’t surprise me one little bit if they were drinking flagons in the sheds on the allotment either.
We all know what goes on in places like this.
They depend on the charity of the Church but when it comes to putting their hands in their own pockets they turn into political activists.
Backstabbing Judases.
I’d ban the lot of them from receiving the sacraments for life.
The church doesn’t even own the land, south Dublin county council do, the church it says has an interest in the land. And prior to it being used as a community garden it was a wasteland. Your comment is invalid.
Niah the bloody Catholic Church still hasnt paid the €18 grand to the council, its nothing to do with them, typicsl arrogance from a discredited institution which held the country back for generations!
Noah…
Not sure you read the story it’s civic land the deeds are held bye the council, much like payments for child abuse and other sins the chef magically forgot to pay and thought the land was theirs for free
@ Noah the church does not own the land so they have no right to tell anyone to leave the garden and your generalizations about people are pathetic , I suggest you build yourself a big boat , fill it with you and your Catholic Church buddies and sail off into the sunset.
the church don’t own the land.
Right across Ireland in every little parish in the country.
@Linda.
It seems there has been an unwritten agreement between the council and the Church that the land will pass into Church ownership which is a positive step for many community groups in the area who will have access to it.
Dublin City Council taking the high moral ground?
Don’t make me laugh.
They’d flog it off to the nearest developer with a wad of cash in an instant and presto..some ugly monstrosity would occupy the space and the locals would be shut out permanently.
Much better that the Church takes ownership.
The Catholic Church has always been generous in allowing community access to parish lands.
They have a long and proud history in that regard.
You are deluded
@Noah I’m afraid I’ll have to ask you to stop commenting on this thread Noah. There’s long been an unwritten agreement between myself and theJournal.ie that this comment thread would pass into my ownership. I think you’ll find that I have a long and proud history of allowing people to comment on public threads, and that my ownership will be a positive step for many community groups online. While I have yet to pay for this privilege in any way, despite agreements made as far back as 18 years ago, I feel the comment section is mine regardless. To leave it to the control of its actual, still unpaid owners would only see it flogged to grubby software developers, and then no one could use it. I know you feel you’ve made quite an effort, posting and pruning and nurturing your comments to this thread and others, and while I’m sympathetic, I’m afraid the metaphorical padlock has snapped shut. I’ll have a sign up shortly. Sorry!
the deeds are not handed over,neither is the money,neither matters. what matters is if the sale documents are signed,if they are ,then the church owns it.the people should be asking this question.
you are right Gus, the church has s ne nothing for this country (apart from provide free secondary education for 1000s, free and efficient healthcare for 1000s, the odd care centre for the homeless, the odd campaigner for social justice). The entire organisation should be shut down and exterminated (because as Irish people we don’t believe in individual responsibility and much prefer the collective punishment employed by our colonial masters – they taught us well).
Not to mention industrial schools, mother and child homes, magdalene laundries for fallen women, rampant child abuse, slavery, torture, imprisonment and most of all, essentially stealing the march of a nation and helping maintain the status quo after independence. We should all be so grateful!
Thomas, can you point out to me where the church provide free education and healthcare? I think you will find all education is paid for via the states budget and the same for healthcare
@Linda
“You are deluded”
I categorically reject that assertion.
Surely people this guy Noah is a wind up merchant. Nobody could be that ignorant. Nice one Noah, now f@ck off !
the church provided free education and free healthcare until the State started to pay for it. The church is demonized (not unreasonably) for all the bad stuff they have done but people forget the good stuff they did. A little balance is all that is needed. Someone elsewhere has posted a link to the Lucan Gazette story which explains the background in a bit more detail. Worth a look. The Journal might have included some of that info.
Reading the Gazette , it confirms that the church doesn’t legally own the land so how can they stop anyone from passing onto it.
The roman Catholic church is not a charity, it is a business with money and land assets. People need to stop and think more about how the church operates at gaining control over peoples lives and manipulating their childrens lives.
Sacrements are the teachings of the church, nothing more. Idle words for idle people.
are section 183 proposals limited by time constraints in any way. for a property price to remain static for 18yrs is wide open to abuse..
Well now Thomas, the church has indeed been a wealthy land-owner for years, as were the landed gentry – the fact is that all our ancestors and our parents paid into the collection trays every week to pay for that land and the buildings on it, and the salaries of the priests who taught in and ran the various schools, hospitals, etc.
In a very real sense those resources belong to the community and to the people who I understand are considered to be the real church – ie the individual members, not the clerical hierarchy.
Consider also that those church and hospital buildings have over the years all been refurbished, extended and in many cases completely rebuilt at the expense of the state – while remaining legally the assets of the church. That means 90% of our schools, our university hospitals like St. Vincent’s – all paid for by us but run by the church in line with its ethos.
Consider how many millions the church owes to the state for the reparation we all had to pay instead to compensate victims of crimes committed by this private organisation’s staff members. Perhaps they could sign over to the state some of those lands and buildings they legally, but not morally, own.
Consider further that the state is a cash cow without which the Catholic Church in this country would be reduced to just its lay members. As a private organisation it receives preferential access to contracts and massive state funding to deliver services that it is the responsibility of the state to deliver – such as health and education and a range of social services in communities. The church does not put its hand into its own pocket at all but it gets by this arrangement privileged access to funding and a special dispensation to deliver these state services in a way that is non-inclusive and proselytising. That is a disgrace.
I am sick of all of our community assets being paid for by us but run by the church in line with their ethos – sick of so many of our community services and youth clubs run by the church – even our national marriage guidance service – which received nearly 2 million from the state in 2014 – part of that to run marriage preparation courses for Catholics who would be marrying in the church only – and I don’t think they provide relationship counselling to LGBT couples.
We need badly to be giving our scarce state funding to organisations who can deliver inclusive secular state services in local communities – and that is not the church.
Has the country and society in general improved since the church has been abandoned? Not at all.
I think the fact that there isn’t widespread paedophilia would be considered an improvement to a,lot of peopke
Well it hasn’t disimproved if that’s what your getting at.
my point exactly.
the grounds of the church behind where i grew up were always open for kids to play football and play around. There was very little trouble and if anything they were a deterrent to anyone trying to gain access to the homes that backed onto this green area. But with a change of parish priest a plan was put forward to build on this land. A small area of a few hectares completely surrounded by housing, the planning permission was rejected due to complaints from residents, so the church decided to close the grounds to the public. Punishment for the locals who had scuppered their building plans. Walls were erected to fence off the area. So the above does not suprise me in the least. What also doesnt suprise me is that all these church lands weren’t transferred to public ownership on foot of payments to abuse survivors. Again the citizen is footing the bill for crimes against the citizen and the vested interest gets to keep what it has. I also think it is this kind of injustice that pope francis is trying to fight against as it is this kind of attitude that has people fleeing from the church in droves. The government should have cleaned them out at the time, imagine the amount of greenland amenities in urban areas that could be opened up to the public. Why do they need this property? Does the church not believe in a life of poverty for its members?? The socialist in me screams seize it for the people as compensation for years of evil acts and influence. But i’d rather they do the christian thing and donate it. That would be in line with the teachings of the man they purport to follow.
@ Brian O’Faoilain ,,, they can’t do THE CHRISTIAN THING and donate it because they haven’t completed the original transaction & paid the agreed purchase price £18,500 for the land in question, therefore under common law & the law of the land the original contract is invalid as it was not completed . SDCC are still the owners of said land by deed of title as it’s still registered to them in the Alan Registry Office. This piece of land was neglected & overgrown for years in fact it was used as a dumping ground but the locals cleaned it out with the help of SDCC & at their own expense & donations from local business spent hours upon hours getting it into the condition it’s in now & providing a focal point for the community. Now it came out recently that the local PP was charging them rent for the property , which he doesn’t actually own so isn’t entitled to, but now claims the church needs the property back ,,,,,,,, methinks there’s something NOT QUITE RIGHT GERE
If the garden is not owned by the Church because it didn’t pay the money to the Council, then the Council still owns the park because they are in possession of the Deeds. So whose public liability insurance is the Park under? If someone has an accident in the Park will they sue the Church or the Council? It is better off closed until clarification is determined on ownership and insurance.
The church uses parables to teach about the forbidden fruit.
To the author, out of interest, did the church give a definitive list of activities they wish to pursue on the ground? Couldn’t they church have waited until October to allow the people to enjoy their garden over the summer months? Sounds like there is more to this story.
Someone else just posted this: http://www.gazettegroup.com/news/parish-appeals-paved-garden-row/ Apparently the church would like to build a car park there instead. So I presume the list of activities will be short, limited entirely to ‘parking cars.’
they are building a new community centre and want to turn in into a car park to facilitate the centre , the church has asked the council to provide another garden space for the community .
Is the land owned by Dublin City Council or South Dublin County Council? Article says both, and Lucan’s in SDCC.
Owned by South Dublin County Council
if the local council own the land tell the church to fcuk off and open it to the public.
“Pastoral” Council. How ironic.
down with this sort trying
down with this sort of thing damn autocorrect. I blame dougal… ;-)
My instinct says the parish allowed the people to use the land in order to make something of it, to make it something other than wasteland. Now it is a going concern, they can’t conceive of keeping their grubby hands from grasping at potential rental income.
The great Cult of Ireland Show themselves again for what They Are…….
Where theres muck theres brass.
Unfortunately, where ownership is disputed, liability is also disputed. If anything happened to anyone using that garden, who would they turn to for compensation? It’s an easy way to attack the church or the local authority but neither party would accept any liability in the event of an accident. Until the ownership issue is sorted out, there cannot be any proper resolution of public liability issues which may arise.
A bit of a non-story really, the basic facts are quite mundane.
whoever owns the deeds is the legal owner. in this case the council own the deeds.
If the council ‘own the deeds’ ( is that the same as owning the property?) then all they need do is take down the sign, remove the locks and throw the gates open to the public. Seemples!
The Catholic Church yet again shows how out of touch and unchristian they are. Well done to that community for the tremendous work they’ve done!
They’ve done the same in the African Missions in Blackrock in Cork, put up this awful fencing to keep us out……the kids loved to cycle about, but now there’s a sign up saying no cyclists
the old adage ” closer tonthe alter further from god” rings true again!
have your say