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This post was originally published on the 18 August 2012 but republished here as the CAO points for 2013 are being revealed tomorrow.
TOMORROW MARKS a big day in the lives of thousands of young people in Ireland, as the first round of college placement offers are distributed by the Central Applications Office.
The offers will dictate, for many, what they will study for the next few years – as well as where they might live, and how much college might cost them – or whether they may have to go back to school for another year to secure the grades they need.
For most, though, it brings an end to the Leaving Cert experience – as students take their grades and book their places in the courses that they hope will lead them into the working world.
While the CAO points system has become a rite of passage for many Irish people, it’s also something which can mystify the other people in their lives, who might never have gone through a similar system themselves.
So, for those baffled by the system through which their children, grandchildren, siblings, nieces, nephews and friends are going, here’s our guide to how the whole thing works.
Let’s start at the beginning: there would be no ‘points’ without a Leaving Cert in the first place. CAO Points are calculated based directly on a student’s grades in their Leaving.
Most Leaving Cert subjects are taken at two levels – either Higher Level (‘honours’) or Ordinary Level (‘pass’). (A couple of subjects are also offered at Foundation Level, but they do not count for the purposes of CAO points.)
While every exam in the Leaving Cert does ultimately result in a percentage grade, this isn’t what students are given on results day. Instead, they’re given a letter grade which corresponds to the percentage score that they got.
Those grades are outlined on this table:
These grades then correspond directly with the points that you get for each grade. For each grade, a fixed number of points are awarded. For ordinary level, these are allocated based on this table:
For higher level subjects, the points are exactly the same - except you add 40. (This is the reward that a student gets for opting to sit a tougher exam.) So, for an honours subject, a D3 gets you 45 points while an A1 will get you 100.
From last year, colleges are also offering bonus points for honours Maths.
The idea behind this is reasonably simple: the CAO only considers your best six subjects for points purposes, while many students actually take seven subjects - meaning they'll be doing one subject which they know will not count for the purposes of getting into college.
Knowing this, many students striving for top grades - and who knew Maths wasn't their strong point - simply opted for the ordinary level paper in order to concentrate their efforts elsewhere. This, in turn, has led to fears about the mathematical capabilities of Irish school-leavers.
In order to try and redress this, from 2012 the system offers 25 extra points for those who keep up their Higher Level Maths - giving them an advantage over other students who are happy to concentrate on other subjects.
So, going back to the second table above, when you're dealing with Higher Level Maths you can first add 40 points because it's a Higher Level grade, and then add a further 25 points because it's Maths. So a D3 in honours Maths now gets you 70 points; an A1 gets you 125.
This means that previously, where the maximum points score a student could get was 600, it's now 625.
What many people misunderstand about the points attached to certain courses is that they are not a measure of the difficulty of the course. Although many of the high-points courses do tend to be among the toughest, the two aren't directly linked. This is why students are always told to fill out their CAO forms by ranking courses based on genuine preference and not based on their actual difficulty.
It might help to think of CAO points as a kind of special currency, created only for use in the college applications process.
Put it this way: if you get a B2 in an honours subject, you 'earn' 80 points. Your six best subjects might altogether 'earn' you 400 points. You then use this money in an auction to buy your place on a course.
That, in essence, is what the CAO does: it runs an auction. This is best explained with an example.
Let's pretend there's a college called 'TheScore.ie Institute of Sportology', which runs a course called 'Premier League Liveblogging'. Let's pretend there are 50 places in this course.
Now, let's say that only 40 CAO applicants put this course at the top of their list of preferences. In that case, there are more places than applicants - and everyone gets in. (On CAO lists this is marked as 'AQA' - All Qualifiers Accepted.)
But if there are 100 applicants with Premier League Liveblogging as their first choice, obviously we have a problem - because the course can only take half of them.
So how does it sort them out? By ranking applicants based on their points. This is the auction - the 50 applicants with the best CAO scores are the ones who will be offered a place.
The other 50 will instead have to make do with a lower preference on their form - they'll be offered whichever course closest to the top of their list, which they have also fulfilled the other entry criteria for (some courses, like those in Science, will demand certain Leaving Cert grades in the appropriate subjects).
The whole point of this explanation is to underline that the points needed for the course aren't simply based on how tough the course is - it's merely based on the results of the people who want to get in.
The points value that you'll see listed beside the name of a course on the newspapers, or online, is merely the point beyond which applicants are going to be successful or not - it's the 'minimum price' determined by the CAO auction.
The first round of CAO offers - revealing the results of the first round of auctions - will be released on Monday. Further rounds will be offered over the next few weeks as extra places become available - if, for example, some people don't take up their offers or colleges increase their capacity.
To all those awaiting their offers, and to those standing by their sides: good luck.
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And by the time you get into college, get your degree the Leaving Cert is as relevant as putting your Junior Cert results on a CV.
I’m writing to you a year to the day since you posted this. Bet you weren’t expecting that
Hi Seán, I’m writing to you a year to the day since you posted that reply. Bet you weren’t expecting that either!!
I can’t stress that last point more that high points does not mean a more difficult course!
My own course MSISS in TCD was 385 and is basically business, maths and computers rolled into one. Had the highest fail rate of any course in Trinity last year!
Ignore the points. Put down what you WANT to do in college!
Well, gaining high points gives you options and I think most students would like to be in the position of not being limited by their Leaving Cert. But I take your point, as I did an very high points course and the TCD engineers kicked my ass in terms of work!
What do you work at after that David? Just curious
I have very mixed feelings on the CAO. My daughters received their results last Wednesday and on the Thursday one of them who had applied to a UK university received an offer from UCAS. (The UK equivalent)
Why does it take the CAO five days to release the offers? Can it really take five days for the CAO to liase with the various 3rd level institutes?
Would it not make sense for the offers to be made simultaneously with a students results even if it delays releasing the Leaving Cert results by a few days. For many kids stressed enough as it is, the five day gap is too much and with technology is unnecessary.
In the.meantime the other daughter has chewed her nails to the quick.
Eh this is Ireland and that would mean cutting down from two days to drink and celebrate to one day no can do
Would it not make sense to release the LC results a week or two earlier and then have final completion of the CAO a couple of days after the results. That way the students could tailor their course choices more closely to their results and take a little of the trauma out of the waiting.
The CAO system exists precisely so that isn’t necessary.
Excellent article Gavin. Having put my three through the points system I couldn’t have put it better myself.
Sorry, Gavan. And I hate it when people do not spell my name correctly!
The points system is not fit for purpose. The same points are awarded no matter what relevance the subject in question has to the course applied for. You can get to study medicine having failed biology! Daft.
You can get to do Medicine in TCD without doing Biology!!! As is the case with some of my first year students
I know a girl who is studying English having failed it in the leaving cert. It just makes no sense to me.
While some courses have a ridiculous minimum grade, in an irrelevant subject, as an added requirement to points.
Strange that! If you fail one of the core subjects- English being one of them, then you have not passed your LC & cannot go to university. I don’t know if the same applies for I.Ts but surely it’s a very sad reflection on someone who fails a subject at LC level and then is so deluded that they think themselves capable of going on to study it at 3rd level.
I know. That’s why all of us were shocked. She is in UCD.
I spoke to her the day of our debs and she said she was still accepted because she had the points and they had no actual additional requirements.
I think her degree was combined with other subjects too.
The year I sat my leaving English across the board was marked really harshly. We had a board member of the SEC in our school who advised sending the majority for re-checks.
Seriously? Go on her. Some schools simply don’t push students enough. Take it from expirience.
Antiquated system. There’s no reason to say that you won’t be good at a course in University because of the points you have, high or low. Leaving Cert is far too broad and has no reflection on research ability or independent thought…. essential in University. And nearly all University Courses have not been thought at a second level standard, so students have never seen them before, they could hate them, and everyone starts on an equal footing. More often the CAO points reflect supply and demand… which is related to the current economy…. 4 years is a long time… could be a whole new world by the time you have your degree.
Eight years ago I sat crying having narrowly (5 pts) missed out on my 1st choice in the CAO in Sciences. After much deliberation I accepted my 2nd choice in Business & Language. Thankfully, I couldn’t be happier with how everything worked out! To all those waiting on offers tomorrow, the very best of luck to you!! Not getting your 1st choice may be a perceived missed opportunity but it can also be the start of an incredible, unexpected experience!
Couldn’t agree more. I missed out on my first choice, not even by points, but by an irrelevant grade requirement!
I had cleared the course by 60 points and couldn’t do it. I had the option of repeating the subject I needed the grade for, but I felt I worked hard enough and wasn’t going to put myself through the stress again.
In the end I took a year out and returned a year later to a similar course. Again honestly the best thing I ever did. Sometimes these things happen, and while they may seem like the end of the world more often times than not they are in fact a blessing in disguise.
Everything happens for a reason and all that. :)
@Jillian. Well done. We’re you not a bit scared of accepting the offer considering science and business differ alot?
The sooner we move away from this ridiculous way of 3rd level options the better. Cant get into science with irish. Cant do architecture because you dont have french. Simply does not make sense. Assessment and aptitude the only way forward.
Wow.. I scraped my Leavin cert a long time ago.. Didnt apply for college for obvious reasons!!!!.. Plus my parents didnt have the money.
Achieved 120 points according to the table above.. Wonder what courses wouldve been available to me.. Flower arranging??!!
By the way i am earnin 35,000 a year now… See u dont need to go to college to earn a decent livin.. I am sure it helps tho
Good luck to all.. I admire all those young uns who study hard..
Signed
A thicko
Your attitude is great. So true, my parents didn’t even get as far as the LC the were told to go out and work. Later on in life the went back to education (with out a lc, through link schemes of course) and their doing well for themselves and one only has a level 6 certificate from plc, but were comfortably living. Just a saying the LC is a good indication to your career path but depends on how you approach further education it doesn’t determine your life or what you’ll actually do. I know someone who got 420 points in LC and dropped out, and then other people who have dropped outta school many years ago. It’s very much a case of life’s what you make it! Fair play!
I take a different view to those expressed. If someone wants ,vocavtionally, to study ,say, Dentistry why should a points race be the criterion? The vocational aspect does not rank in a points system. A student may be inclined to one course but “because I got the points I studied (say) Medicine”. What kind of a Doctor does that produce? The solution may be hard to find ,but it seems that more attention ought to be paid to it and a system devised to accommodate it. Difficult , but we have very highly paid Civil Servants (?) to come up with answers. To pressurise our youth with thec current system is harsh beyond words.
Best of luck to everyone getting offers tomorrow. It’s one of the most nerve wracking things.
I sincerely hope that points for some courses don’t sky rocket, such an unfortunate kick in the guts when that happens.
I wouldn’t worry about the CEO to much . This government just wants you all to emigrate .
Get the point, not the points.
This article highlights the obvious failure of the education system.
A well educated student, ready to begin third level education (after 13 years of school!) should be capable of understanding how the CAO points system works without the need to spell it out to them.
I assume it is more relevant to parents and others, not the students themselves.
The article clearly states it is for those who may have a loved one awaiting results and wish to understand the system but are a bit mystified by it.
The only thing this highlights is your failure to actually read it.
Hope you read the questions in your JC and LC better than you read this article, Pauric. It clearly says in the fifth paragraph that it’s meant as a guide for those of us who didn’t go through the CAO system ourselves.
Hmmm.. Still mind boggling to me. I should really be worrying. Lol I also don’t understand how someone would have psychology as number 1 and settle for drama and theatre studies. I think if you don’t get your first option and unless your also 100% sure about your second option should you only then take your second option. If that’s not the case take a PLC, I know in my town there is a stigma around PLC which is off putting. However better dealing with that stigma and you knowing the truth about it and getting to where you wanna be then doing something your not happy with and dropping out. P.s stressful time for us teens!
Fair enough. I overlooked that bit.
What if I do Higher Level maths and it’s not in my top six grades?
Or even more importantly, if I do Higher Level maths and I receive the same grade in another subject, ie, two joint 5th highest grades.
It is about your top six subjects in terms of points, not grades, therefore maths would be included.
Itm ust be used in the top six to earn extra points
Two questions:
Q1 – Take a course that has 50 places .. 75 applicants.
30 applicants with highest points get place ….
45 applicants remaining (with exactly same points) to fill 20 places …
How are the remaining places allocated .. ??
Q2 – Am I right in saying .. that the points allocated to the course the following year .. is derived from the lowest points it took to fill a course in the current year …
(money riding on this one !!)
This would be more credible if there wasn’t a very basic error in it: B2 was quoted as being worth 80 points whereas it’s only worth 75! By the way I left school with only a Group Cert.
Nope a B2 is 80 points.
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