Dear Senators, I urge you to watch “bottled life” currently on Netflix before voting. The story of how Nestle (switzerland) have grown their water business to €9bln/yr. The impoverished town beside their plant in Pakistan begged for some water while Nestle refused while exporting “Pure Life” brand water at premium prices from this well. Aquifers drained in USA (Maine). The untold story of “poland spring water” in the Usa. One 30m3 truck costs $10 and retails at $50000….but one town in Maine after years of perseverance fought and beat Nestle. Nestle would give their right arm for Irish Water, not for the domestic market but billions can be earned from exporting a new brand “Irish Water”.

surely these senators can at some stage put the people first and give us a referendum ,,keep out water safe from vulture capitalists

I think I represent the workers that built this country and have funded it since its foundation

It’s a political reality that most Senators want to be TDs, it’s not the way it’s meant to be but that’s what we’ve got. So it remains to be seen which ones will do right even if it harms their party popularity / odds of being nominated and seen as ‘not a team player’ and all that loaded code language. I actually think anyone associated with getting the people a vote on something they actually want (as opposed to nonsense like tinkering around wit the Presidency age limit) will be a shoe in for election in 2016

Spot on Senator

Ryan
I agree with you wholeheartedly,you just got the date wrong should be 2015

Whaf is the point of having a government or seanad at all if everything is to be decided by referendum, politicians are elected to serve the people and make responsible decisions. The time to see if those decisions have stood the test is during a general election not at a drop of the hat referendum.

You represent yourself mate, we didnt elect you…

We saved your bacon senator so we could have a Seanad working for the people… Until that happens next time you might not be so lucky

@Chris to give your question a serious answer we do expect them to represent us and deal with most decisions,

On some issues though, the people need a say. Until now these have been constitutional issues but our constitution does allow for an ordinary referendum (on anything) we’ve just never had one because our establishment is terrified of the public and always has been (it’s why Dev removed the power of iniative from the free state constitution) article 27 says it must be a ”proposal of such national importance” ad leaves what defines that up to the Presidents judgement. On top of that it’s clear from the protests the people don’t want this, and Labour ran against it in 2011 and got their mandate on that basis..so this is not like us demanding a vote on some routine ammendment to the criminal justice act this is a major part of our infrastructure that could end up in private hands in an era where many multinationals describe water as ”blue gold”

Ryan, I think many of the people in favour of this charge are on the basis that those that use the service, pay for it. They might not be upper or middle class as you say, but a lot of people are paying for their own private well or group scheme, plus paying for the public system through general taxation. Those people are indeed paying for water twice.

FG/Lab Chris
Take the day off,spent the afternoon reading the sunday papers, you would need to skip page 2 7 and 9 the Red C poll will only spoil your dinner.

Rat
What a load of cobblers, I can’t make head nor tail of that comment.

Sorry, Thierry Rat
You seem to be getting at the Senator,he is clearly against the water charges, why the threat.???

Thierry
Have you let the cat out of the bag, you seem to be a bit pi**ed off the Senator is against the water charges.

Absolutely Peter, I couldn’t agree more. We have some of the most useless politicians who pay themselves high wages for doing nothing, is it any wonder we are the joke of Europe that they cannot make clear decisions without having to go cap in hand to the people…it’s a disgrace!!

No he is against the current proposed bill

Where does he say he is against water charges

This is where he said it should be paid for in his above comment “Lets us not fool ourselves water WILL have to be paid for somehow some way My issue is the way this has been set up & ability to pay” this is where the senator is missing the point in that we already pay for water. He is the same as the rest of them…useless

Sure we pay but just not quite enough it seems,we need €8 billion to upgrade our neglected water system and stop the disgusting practice of dumping raw sewage into our seas,we have two choice here,we pay through increased taxation or as is normal in every other country through a dedicated utility,one things for sure,after a hundred years of neglect, doing nothing is not an option.

Richard, when you try to explain to people it’s capped, or you explain the importance of diversifying revenue streams…they just tune out…they don’t trust ANYTHING the establishment has to say anymore after all the 2011 election lies
I think if you had said a flat rate of council tax that each council can control, along with an elected mayor and local control, and that one tax coveres everything, I think people would have been ok with that. Whats annoying them is every few weeks they see to be coming up with new charges levies and ways to hit them and this is the straw that broke the camels back

According to Kelly et Al. Where are the costings? Have you seen ANYTHING meaningful published in this regard? No but plenty of blather from people who hope to profit from awarding grossly inflated contracts. Material and labour have never been cheaper in modern terms. This is more figures being pulled from you know where. In due course the CAG and ourselves can tut tut over the criminal profligacy – TOO LATE.

Let me know where your buying materials Sheik because I don’t believe they’re any cheaper

You are a joke, but what’s worse is we pay your upkeep..

Thierry you have a very inflated importance attached to your opinion. You certainly don’t pay anything for me. I’m guessing it’s the other way round and I’m paying for your dole, medical card, etc. What is clear is you are a bitter sour person whom I’m glad I don’t know on a personal level. I have little time for people who spend their life moaning and blaming others. Change of name maybe, bitter rat ?

#@Donnacha don’t lock yourself into an ideological cage. Ask yourself what works and does not, not what fits with an ideology. All state ownership is not bad by design.
You won’t get me arguing phone companies and airlines need to be state owned but very basic things like water infrastructure, hospitals, and shools we all benefit from state subsidy or control of them.

The state can’t run an airline well, history has proved that, but history has also prove a private monopoly is way worse than a public one and you only have to look at Berlin and Paris to see what a disaster that ideology was for their water. Or look back to 2008..where did that deregulate eveyrhting hands off credo get us with the banking system? Crash…burn…cut…certain things are not meant to be hands off deregulated and privatized.

Haha

Higgins is as much of a renegade as Norris was , He’d be forever in the history books for being the first President to refer bills to the people. The provision is there, why not use it?
He has to consult to the council of state but he can sit there and do a crossword if he wants, he’s not bound by what they say it’s up to him in the end.

Chucky ár Norris?

Best comment of all time. In the universe.

@WereJammin, was just thinking the same thing! Norris as President and Vincent Browne for Ceann Comhairle.

your universe is pretty small so

The Council of State is just a waste of time and space. You’ll find that Cowen and Bertie and John Bruton all have a say at that forum.

The referendum will not stop us paying for water it will just kill this deeply flawed Bill We will have to find a way to take water production out of the ex checker in time However we can’t pay double tax.

Thomas its about privatisation and feathering the elites nest. The water quality of supply has nothing to do with Irish Water and their Call Center in Cork.

For years working with politicos I’ve been amazed at how quickly the Irish political establishment can work itself into a circle jerk of conventional wisdom and make something sound like it’s as obvious as saying the Sky is blue when it’s not.

There may be arguments to get it off the books (there are). There may be an argument that because of the property tax over-reliance in the 2000s we should diversify our revenue streams (without doubt) but the notion that we HAVE to have it seperatly billed for …there is absoloutly NOTHING stopping the govt funding the repairs and upgrades in phases the same way they fund everything else.
It’s time to get rid of these myriad of regressive charges and just have one local council tax that incorporates everything. We should do the same with the UHI plan for health ONE BILL where you know after you pay that it’s all included and you can realx not having to worry the govts gonna cook something else up a few weeks later.

I think the more the government add separate taxes and charges, ie. Household charge, property tax and now a water tax. We pay privately for bins we pay separately for road tax, which 5% was added many governments ago to look after water. I have to ask the government this, what is my general taxation been spent on. What is 41% from my wages every week actually getting me. And as a firefighter/paramedic we also took a 5% paycut and now pay PRD (tax) 8% per wk extra on top of the 5% i already pay. To tax water is a joke. My 41% general taxation is paying for the banks and bondholders. Enough is enough. Scrap it completely. Give something back to the public who have saved this country from bankruptcy.

@TomKenny I’m paying around €500 per year excluding esb. My point is, it’s swings and roundabouts Tom, consider what your house would cost in the city, how many thousands have you saved there? By zoning in on one element your missing the bigger picture which is our national resource, it was bestowed to us as a gift and should never be in a position where it can be privatised and sold off to some foreign corporation. Incidentally, Not sure if you know but there is talk that Irish Water shall be taking over our wells and forcing us to connect to their system when they get out to wherever we are. Also look at the terms and conditions 1.9.7, with regard to the harvesting of rainwater. They want you to write to ask for “approval” to harvest the rainwater from your own roof! Irish water is a for profit company, they don’t give a hoot about conservation. In fact they are working in the opposite direction altogether, charging people for the harvested rainwater going into the drains. It looks to me that they want to take over every drop of our national resource. I agree that a reasonable price structure is needed but first and foremost we need to ensure that the resource is protected and enshrined into our hands via referendum.

if you have a septic tank what are you paying the €500 for ??

@TomKenny, the €500 is for a company to come and empty the septic tank and take away the waste, and also the government charge / tax for simply having a septic tank. Don’t understand how you don’t know this if you have your own well and septic tank? What are you paying €1000 per year for?

I also have my own well and septic tank and pay yearly for the up-keep but I’ve been to the last three major protests and will go to the next one and the one after that. Why? Because I am sick to the back teeth of this Government and their lies. They have reduced spending on the infrastructure since coming to power so could not give two hoots about the infrastructure.

Tom, this is the way rural group water schemes operate we paid just six euros last year for water. The bio-cycle tank costs us €200 each year to get de-sludged and certified plus esb for the air pump.

2 new pumps + €200 for desludge, paid the government charge last year. Septic tanks don’t need to be emptied (unlike biocycle) when they are working right, I thought you’d know that.

I’m not on a group water scheme Chris, share the well with my neighbour.

yippy yappy you better get back on to who ever charged you over €400 to empty your septic tank, you have been way over charged. Well either that or else your talking sh*t (pardon the pun)

TomKenny, Well mine does, and has been emptied every year for the last 15 years. As for your charge of €1000 euro per year, do you have to buy 2 new pumps every year? If so, may I recommend you get a different system in, €1000 per year sounds mighty expensive. Or are you actually looking at the €200 figure for your de-sludge and certificate yearly? Which is it? The €1000 figure you quoted in your first post, or €200 ?

I never said I have to pay €1,000 every year, I said I had to put two pumps in it this year. you are full of crap, In my home of origin the septic tank has had to be emptied once in over 40yrs.

TomKenny Yes I have got back to them, on a few occasions over the last 15 years, they are the cheapest I can get where I am situated. Give me the name and number of your people and I’ll certainly try them.

Anyway we are gone way off the point, water meters make sense. reduce some other tax to balance it back out and reduce the pressure people are under but the more you use the more you pay has to make sense. At the moment if a person leaves a tap on the whole week it doesn’t matter (I realise most people are responsible though)

TomKenny you said your “biocycle cost over €1000 this year alone, not counting electricity”..
Forgive me but that gives the “impression” to the reader that you are paying €1000 per year.
And no I’m not full of crap Tom, my septic tank is emptied every year for the 15 years I have lived here.
So now, I take it your not paying €1000 per year, but somewhere around the €200 mark?
In which case, I refer you back to my original recommendation. to contact your house insurance company and car insurance company, and see how much you are saving on insurance compared to your city counterparts.
I would suspect, that the €200 (approx) your spending on your own water supply / disposal is gained back in whole or in part when you consider this. You are not subsidising anyone Tom, every Irish citizen pays for their water already.

Don’t know why when I posted name it appeared above, Mulwaste, louth, peter a pure gentleman. If your septic tank isn’t working right he may help you get it back working, but the whole idea of septic tanks is that you don’t have to empty them

I don’t want to see anyone pushed to the edge or over the edge, but water charges make sense. If it is being paid by a % of the vat or whatever, then reduce that. but you have to see that fundamentally it makes sense. It should be enshrined that it can never be privatised and in that way politicians can be held responsible for cost, that should stop over charging

TomKenny, thanks for the recommendation, I’m living way down south, and out in the middle of nowhere, not sure they’d service down this far. The people I have coming come from Carlow, and are cheapest I can get. Nobody has alerted me that my septic tank isn’t working, they’ve always said its fine. I can’t say I know much about it, I tend to keep away from the area when they are doing their thing. Yes we are getting off the point, as for water meters, there is some debate about their safety, and the pros and cons I’m sure can be thrashed out at a later date after our national resource is securely in the hands of the Irish people and is no longer in the vulnerable position its in right now. Regardless of what we are paying now Tom, I’m sure, at the very least we can be agreed upon the basic tenet that turning our most vital national resource into a commodity / privatising it and the probable sell off to a multinational corporation in the future is something we should all be united against. Whatever we are all paying now (both the rural and city dwellers) will be a drop in the ocean compared to whats ahead of us if our water falls into the hands of foreign multinational corporations.

I don’t agree with privatisation full stop. I’m knowledgeable about septic tanks etc and have fitted many. I service my own biocycle unit. People genuinely used to throw a small dead animal, cat etc into a tank after it was emptied to get the correct bacteria needed in your tank to function. If your in a wet area that could be your problem and you may need better percolation, but you should get it looked at

I live in the country and i disagree with you. They will get us on the septic tanks. And they will tell urban dwellers they are subsidising YOU!!!!!! You idiot, dont fall for this rubbish divide and rule tactic. Have some solidarity with other people who are struggling you cretin.

Joe in simple terms i’d like to just say to you…..Go F*ck yourself