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'Swords question' dominates submissions on Dáil boundary changes

Of the 533 submissions published by the Constituency Commission so far, 238 relate to Swords’ placement in Dublin West.

THE THORNY QUESTION of where to put the town of Swords accounts for around half of all submissions sent to the Constituency Commission, ahead of its decisions on how to redraw Ireland’s electoral boundaries.

Of the 533 submissions published so far by the Commission – which stopped accepting public submissions on the proposed boundary changes on Tuesday – 238 deal specifically with the question of which constituency Swords should be put into.

Another 27 submissions address the matter of Swords – which was moved into Dublin West for the last election, divorced from its historical home of Dublin North – as part of other comments about reassigning territory between the two constituencies.

A large chunk of the submissions on Swords are the result of a petition organised by the local branch of Fianna Fáil – who point out that 280 voters are currently assigned to vote in polling stations three miles away, instead of the one across the road.

Among the parties complaining about the Swords move is Fingal County Council, whose territory corresponds broadly with that of Dublin North – which complained that the county town was no longer in the same constituency as the rest of the county.

Another regular submission includes the complaints that Dublin areas like Terenure and Harold’s Cross are divided between two constituencies.

Other complaints

Many of the submissions from Kerry – including those from the Kerry South branch of Fianna Fáil, Labour senator Marie Moloney and independent TD Michael Healy-Rae – argue against the amalgamation of the Kerry North and Kerry South constituencies.

It is widely anticipated that the two constituencies – each of which currently boasts three seats – will become one large five-seater, and many submissions complain that a single large constituency would provide too great a geographical spread for candidates to represent.

As yet, only three submissions have been made about the restructure of European Parliament constituencies, which are also up for review by the Commission.

Each of those three submissions reaches a separate conclusion: one from the Fine Gael party recommends the status quo, another from an expatriate group recommends the creation of three four-seaters (replacing the four three-seat constituencies currently in place), while the third advocates the adoption of a single national 12-seat constituency.

A new Constituency Commission is formed every five years after a census is held, in order to ensure that the average population per TD or MEP remains broadly in line with a national average.

The Constitution requires that there be at least one TD for every 20,000 members of the public, and a maximum of one TD for every 30,000 people. This year the commission has been told to cut the number of TDs to between 153 and 160.

Ireland is entitled to elect 12 MEPs, but there are no fixed rules governing the size of any European Parliament constituencies.

How should Ireland arrange its European constituencies?


Poll Results:

One national constituency (335)
Four three-seaters, like now (156)
Three four-seaters (51)
Two six-seaters (21)

Residents claim TDs do not represent ‘middle class’ in Dublin suburb

Explainer: How are Ireland’s constituencies being redrawn?

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31 Comments
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    Mute David Higgins
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    Jan 12th 2012, 10:31 PM

    Michael Healy Rae’s submission is the funniest. No figures on population, just simple minded South Kerry nationalism. He argues urban areas should have less seats than rural ones. He doesn’t understand “proportional” representation at all :D

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    Mute Niall Togher
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    Jan 13th 2012, 12:43 AM

    He doesn’t understand geography either. Mayo is a much larger 5 seat constituency.

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    Mute Liam Ó Néill
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    Jun 21st 2012, 6:37 PM

    Also, I don’t think he understands what the word “ironically” means.

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    Mute Dónal
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    Jan 12th 2012, 10:56 PM

    The self serving Healy Raes have been calling the shots for far too long. Take for example the isolation of 10,000 voters from the Fianna Fáil heartland of West Limerick, tagged onto the north kerry constituency in order to protect kerry’s 6 seats. This corner of West Limerick now has no representation in Dáil Eireann, and what’s even more baffling is the support given to this Healy Rae demand by our great Collins Dynasty.

    Glad to see it being put right!

    Fianna Fáil – NEVER AGAIN!

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    Mute john g mcgrath
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    Jan 12th 2012, 11:11 PM

    And when we add F G and Labour to that list we are running out of parties probably no bad thing

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    Mute Jennifer Flynn
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    Jan 12th 2012, 10:42 PM

    It is ridiculous the way Swords has been divided into two to fit the quotas. how is a small area like supposed to get proper representation when the local TDs of Dublin West are more concerned with their original constituency. Hopefully this issue will be carefully considered and rectified.

    There is a small typo in the text. It should read ‘county town’ not ‘ county down’.

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    Mute hjGfIgAq
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    Jan 12th 2012, 11:29 PM

    Oops – right you are. Fixed!

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    Mute Frank2521
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    Jan 13th 2012, 12:09 AM

    I suggest that the constituency system be abolished as it is the root of all that is wrong in Irish politics. I suggest we have 4 constituencies (provinces) and that the maximum number of TD’s in a constituency would be 20 measured by population and proportionally allotted to each province. This would leave us with about 60 or 65 TD’s which would reduce our overhead and associated costs for the Dail. Will it happen ——Turkeys and Christmas

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    Mute On the Dole
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    Jan 13th 2012, 12:34 AM

    Great idea frank if only .

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    Mute Ciarán Ferrie
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    Jan 12th 2012, 11:24 PM

    Good summary of the issues. I’m surprised the diaspora community hasn’t submitted a proposal for an overseas constituency though.

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    Mute DaveC
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    Jan 13th 2012, 7:02 AM

    So a bunch of FF muppets get together to overturn a ridiculous decision made previously, while they were in power?

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    Mute Eoin Ó Nialláin
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    Jan 13th 2012, 9:15 AM

    The boundaries are drawn up by the commission which is a totally independent body. It doesn’t matter who’s “in power” (personally I dislike that term myself, they should be in office not power) at the time, the commission will make their own decisions regardless.

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    Mute DaveC
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    Jan 13th 2012, 9:45 AM

    This ‘independent’ commission was set up by order of the FF led government in 1997.

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    Mute Niall Togher
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    Jan 13th 2012, 12:41 AM

    Michael Healy Rae shouldn’t complain about the size of his constituency. Mayo is a 5- seat constituency and is geographically larger.

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    Mute Dave McCarthy
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    Jan 13th 2012, 1:05 AM

    One’s head can be geometrically larger, but the question is – how many brain cells are functional within it?

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    Mute Deirdre Bates
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    Jan 13th 2012, 8:20 AM

    I’m a “Dublin West” Swords voter. Funny how we got loads of leaflets in the door from FingalCoCo & local swords councillors fighting to bring us back to Dublin North and not one from Dublin West fighting to keep us. Speaks volumes…

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    Mute Michael McTague
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    Jan 13th 2012, 7:31 AM

    Not a mention journal of the 60 submissions in the regards to the splitting of Leitrim ?? Do you consider the burning question surrounding swords to be more important ?

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    Mute Ailbhe Grogan
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    Jan 13th 2012, 8:18 AM

    “Another 27 submissions address the matter of Swords – which was moved into Dublin West for the last election, divorced from its historical home of Dublin North”….The town was actuaslly divided into two, which one part remaining in Dublin North and the other being placed in Dublin West. Ridiculous!

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    Mute Ailbhe Grogan
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    Jan 13th 2012, 8:21 AM

    Sorry typos there – *actually *with

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    Mute Jennifer Flynn
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    Jan 13th 2012, 1:35 PM

    Yes! That’s the craziest thing about it.

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    Mute Dave McCarthy
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    Jan 13th 2012, 1:03 AM

    The question is – who is gonna own what sheep?

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    Mute Aaron McKenna
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    Jan 13th 2012, 10:13 AM

    3-seat constituencies are not particularly proportional, as you can win 66% of the seats with less than 50% of the vote. FG took 66% of seats in Cork North West, for example, with 48.8% of the vote, same in Cork SW with 48.5%.

    In Kerry South the two independent TDs won 66% of the seats with a combined 29.49% of the vote.

    This can be the case even in our bigger constituencies: In Dublin South, FG won 3/5 seats, 60%, with 36.35% of the vote.

    In other countries with PR they have 10, 15+ seat constituencies.

    The more seats to be won, the more proportional the result.

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    Mute Ken Mitchell
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    Jan 13th 2012, 10:39 AM

    The downside of that is that more “fringe” parties get elected meaning more coalitions and I personally have had enough of ineffective coalitions unable to make hard decisions. What we need is single seat constituencies with PR. That way TDs will have smaller areas to look after meaning less parish pump politics and more national politics. Less TDs asking questions about the local sweet shop not getting the LOTTO machine and more asking about the economy I say.!
    It will also lead to more majority governments which will likely lead to a complete changeover of government every two elections on averagefor. FF got away with been in power for so long because every time they went to bed with a new minority party, they were able to call it a “new” government.

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    Mute Aaron McKenna
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    Jan 13th 2012, 10:46 AM

    Coalition government with many small parties doesn’t work… Such as in Germany? I would say that with the right political system coalition government is no bad thing. The last single party majority government was that of Jack Lynch, which exploded the national debt and screwed the country royally.

    Single constituencies with PR, the AV system, is the same as we see in by-elections here (you must get to 50% on transfers to win); but it’s no less local… Indeed, I would say it is more so, as you have to get 50% of constituents to give you a high preference.

    First past the post gives you majorities easily enough, but do you really want to be ruled by a government that wins 37% of the vote?

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    Mute Eoin Ó Nialláin
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    Jan 13th 2012, 9:21 AM

    I think the 12 seater national constituency is a non-runner as, under PR-STV, a disproportional number of seats would go to candidates from the east of the country and vast areas of the country would be left without representation.. The North & West constituency is already very difficult for candidates to canvass and subsequently MEP’s to get around seeing as it stretches all the way from Loop Head in West Clare to Malin Head in Donegal. The larger a constituency is, the harder it is for the ordinary citizen to get a hold of their representative.

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    Mute Alan Mc Menamin
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    Jan 13th 2012, 9:32 AM

    Eoin, I agree. It should not be solely based on how many live in a specific area. The main issue surrounding the commission is that it focuses on this as a benchmark as opposed to geographical regions. Parts of Donegal may no be moved back in Leitrim having been moved from there in the late 80′s.
    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/01/13/ballyshannon-to-be-kicked-out-of-donegal-in-constituency-shake-up/

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    Mute Andrew Murphy
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    Jan 13th 2012, 4:02 PM

    How do you reckon this would happen? If every province voted for someone from their region, you’d still end up with 3 from each (though Dublin is a little bigger, so maybe they’d have 4). Only if people from the NW preferred the Dublin (or South, or East) based candidate would your concern come though, but isn’t that democracy?

    As one commentator states, three seaters really cant be considered proportional, as the submission linked above states.

    As for size – other European countries manage with much bigger constituencies. So I really don’t see the problem.

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    Mute Alan Mc Menamin
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    Jan 13th 2012, 9:07 PM

    @Andrew Murphy: Name the european constituencies that have similar regional variations as us and i will point out the deficiencies compared to ours e.g. network of transport etc. I dont agree that its should be purely about population size as this would decrease Democracy as it would be the bigger a town/city you are would have more say/power than the smaller one. I live in an electoral area that has 3 biggest population in Donegal, yet we have less cllrs than some areas and we have not ever received the same level of funding as others. Given this regional variations seem best way forward in terms of the MEP situations.

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    Mute Eoin Ó Nialláin
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    Jan 14th 2012, 6:52 AM

    Andrew, other countries don’t have PR-STV (only other one that has that is Malta) so in these larger constituencies votes won’t float away from the general “locality” as they invariable have to under the design of our system. The weight of first preference votes for a Dublin candidate in a small area, along with quick access to national media, plus the best transport links in the country would always keep Dublin candidates at an advantage to others. Going to a single national system would have to also incorporate a first past the post system to make it fair in my opinion. As Alan pointed out, the transport links make getting around much easier in other countries for them to have larger constituencies, coupled with their own electoral system. It’s not comparing like with like I feel but I do understand where you’re coming from. We already have seen though in the NW constituency that Galway based candidates get a disproportionately high vote compared to national averages for their respective parties. Same happens Cork based candidates in the South.

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    Mute Andrew Murphy
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    Jan 14th 2012, 11:32 AM

    You’re right, I’m not sure if they would float away from their locality. But that’s not the main objective – the main objective is a more accurate electoral system, which we don’t have under 3 seaters and which as a result breach EU law. While we may be unique in using PR-STV, other countries such as Finland operate systems where you vote for a personality and a party.
    I think you’re both overstating the transport and access problems. How do you reckon Scotland manages it? Or Finland and Sweden? All massive constituencies with isolated areas. Candidates have cars, and most campaigning is now done through the media. And I don’t accept your fears about a lack of media access either; Ireland has one of the highest rates of local media and RTE have extensive networks of correspondents.
    Also, I have to object to this “Dublin” fear. Look at our recent Presidential election – Galway, Cavan and Derry candidates came first, second and third. And we haven’t had a Dublin a non-Dublin Taoiseach about as often as a Dublin Taoiseach.
    As I say, at the end of the day, this is about making the system more proportional so that the MEPs we elect actually match how people voted. I think that should be the central objective of the system, and its what should have the highest priority.

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    Mute Ken Mitchell
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    Jan 13th 2012, 10:56 AM

    you say germany, I say italy and ireland! I dont like first past post either, i prefer PR but the uk hasn’t done too bad with first past post. In relation to Jack Lynchs majority FF government – one swallow doesn’t make a summer – we’ve had a lot more coalition governments to prove they dont work in ireland

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