Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
THE HEADS of Ireland’s seven universities had made a joint submission to education minister Ruairí Quinn, suggesting the most radical shake-up of the Leaving Certificate and college entry system for decades.
The submission proposes overhauling the college application system so that applicants are awarded points based on how well they have done in comparison to other students taking the same subject.
The proposals would see 100 CAO points issued only to the students who come within the top 1 per cent of the entire country’s applicants, with those in the second percentile getting 99 points, the third percentile 98, and so on.
The report also suggests simplifying the Leaving Cert grading system – scrapping the B1, B2, B3-style system and replacing them with simple ‘B’ grades – as their current purpose of differentiating between different students would be superseded by the other proposals.
Grades would still be awarded in order to rank students if their overall CAO points scores were equal.
Among the other suggestions made in the report is the introduction of a State-wide exam in key subjects like Irish and Maths at the end of Fifth Year, as a precursor to college entry.
This would operate as a straightforward competency exam in those subjects, ensuring that students seeking to go to college had already met minimum standards – freeing them up to concentrate on other subjects, or encouraging them to keep up those ones, for their final year of secondary school.
Further suggestions include reforming college acceptance procedures so that a common entry procedure is in place for several courses – a move which would artificially increase the number of places available to entrants, and therefore help to relax the entry requirements.
The report cites the example of large Arts courses as a good example of how students can apply to a single large course, with lower entry requirements, while still being able to study a wide variety of disciplines and specialise as they choose.
Other proposals are the elaboration of bonus points system, similar to the one introduced for Higher Level Maths this year, to incentivise students to concentrate on areas which would benefit the larger educational landscape and Ireland’s overall economy.
While the report praises the current Leaving Cert system as “utterly transparent”, “highly efficient and cost effective”, and “a reliable predictor of student performance in higher education”, the current system is criticised as allowing “the more advantaged to game the system”.
The current system is also found not to “promote positive educational values or personal development, but rather a very narrow instrumental approach to education and development which distorts approaches to teaching and learning” at both second and third level.
The current benefits “come at a significant price”, it says, meaning the entire system overseeing the transition from second-level to third-level education needs to be “rebalanced in favour of positive educational values”.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
This sounds a bit like the US style Grade Point Average system (GPA). E.g. Using GPA it is possible to get 90% on a paper but still fail, not something I would like to see in Ireland. Would it not be better to just admit that the leaving is only good as an entrance exam to third level. Would it not be better to focus the leaving cert years towards college subjects. For example if students want to study Engineering is a leaving cert Honours Irish a necessity? If they want to study for an arts degree in Art History & French why would Honours maths be required? When was the last time an emergency room Doctor saved a person’s life because they could quote Line 5, Scene 3, Act 2 of “A Mid Summers night Dream”?
GPA is how they assess most NUI courses now.
@Culm – “Would it not be better to just admit that the leaving is only good as an entrance exam to third level.”
Yes it would indeed – but it would be good to admit that so that we can change it. Not everyone goes on to college so the Leaving Cert could be of more value to all IMO.
You’re last sentence there – I get the point (if your point is about rote learning) but in terms of studying something you may not need in your job, that isn’t a bad thing. We’d have nothing but work in our lives if the only learning we had was about work.
so duz this mean i can go collage now lik??
Sounds better to me.
Gary, it is worth trying this (or anything feasible) to get out of the straight points system we have now. We must get to the vocational aspect and not the “I got the points so lets try medicine” idea. What type of a Doctor does that make?
I agree but any system that asks teenagers what they want to do for the rest of their lives will never work, I didn’t have a clue when I left college, I went on a course I didn’t like, dropped out and got a job. I’m 30 now and heading back to college in Sept to persue a course I know I’ll like cause I now have experience enough to know what I will like.
We’re you vocationally assessed on leaving school? Thought not.
There is a difference between doing a job you could be good at and doing a job you like
So then, why is Irish a key subject, now?
Would it not make more sense structuring our whole education system so that it resembles the Finnish education system which is considered the best education system in the world. Obviously it would take time but surely it would be worth it and a whole lot better then our current system
What about the further education courses and those trying to access university through those channels?
The current syllabus is ultimately geared towards solely testing a students ability to memorise facts and books of information rather than their ability reason and understand them. Most people can memorize things given enough attempts, after all, repitition is the mother of memory. Little emphasis is placed on teaching students to learn by analogy or allowing them apply real world information to something with which they can understand it better. I have a vivid recollection of a common phrase I heard during my Leaving Certificate preperation and indeed many of the exams I sat through school, “you don’t need to know why, you just need to know it”.
At the start of 6th year I was directed by my business teacher to purchase a very uselful revision book for business studies, the book contained huge numbers of questions that have appeared in past papers, at the end of each question a model answer was supplied. As there is a certain ammount of predictability in the Leaving Cert as to what topics will come up the goal was to identify the likely topics in the book and memorize the answers provided.
I did particularily well in the subject.
To which syllabus are you referring? There are many. I’m assuming you mean curriculum?
It’s a common misconception that the curriculum and/or individual subject syllabus drives “towards solely testing a students ability to memorise facts and books of information rather than their ability reason and understand them”. It doesn’t. Assessment methods do and unfortunately for a lot of subjects, the assessment method is not only set for lower order questioning but is also mismatched against other subjects.
Change the assessment modes and you change the value of the result. If you assess for understanding, the grade gives an indication of the depth of understanding – same for knowledge, same for application.
The assessment method then drives the learning experience. IMO the quickest way to get value from the education system is to change assessment methods.
A key requirement of a system is that it should be simple and easily understood. I’m not sure this qualifies. I am also against interviewing all candidates a) our university teaching staff do not have enough time and b) it introduces a level of subjectivity quite nicely removed from the system as it exists at present. I am not sure how the idea of a common entry point to a lot of courses would see a reduction in the number of first year failures either.
I think there are some questions to be asked about their percentile plans given that we already differentiate between students at grade levels – how much more precise do they want it – we brought in the A1/A2 grading scheme to provide more granularity in calculating points and anyway how do you evaluate the merit of an A1 in Irish, versus an A1 in mathematics? What about those subjects traditionally thought of as easier (viz, history Geography) and those thought to be more complex (say physics, chemistry).
We have a relatively good balanced and blinded system in place at the moment. I’m not sure it needs too much messing around with it. Where we have issues, and what this does little to address is in curriculum design for the primary and secondary system,. Tinkering with Leaving Cert points scoring does not address this; it’s just a symptom of wider problems.
Get rid of the Irish exam!
The Irish education system.
What do you propose?
So much to overhaul. Pity our educational system didn’t come into the 21st century along with us.
The only thing I propose is a common sense approach to the overhaul.
have your say