Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
THE GREEN PARTY in Ireland walks a tricky electoral tightrope – trying to rouse support from voters who may be less interested in environmental issues (and not be ‘too green’ to the point of putting them off) while also vying for votes from leftists and environmentalists who, in the face of the climate crisis, may see the Greens as still not green enough.
It’s been a quest of ups and downs. There was the first go at being a Government party in 2007. The wipeout of 2011. The clawing back of two Dáil seats in 2016. And then, in 2020, Eamon Ryan steered the party to its best ever result in a general election, securing 12 seats and a pathway to the current Government coalition.
But the recent local and European elections were a disappointment for the party as it lost seats around the country, most notably its two MEPs.
It’s in the wake of that loss that Eamon Ryan announced his resignation as leader of the Green Party, a role he has held since 2011. He said, however, that the decision was months in the making and that he will hand over to a “new generation”.
As he does so, what legacy will he leave behind him?
When Ryan became leader thirteen years ago, the party held no seats in the Dáil, having suffered from its role in the coalition with Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats.
That was the government in charge at the time of the financial collapse and the recession. By the time the 2011 election came, there was significant negative sentiment from the public towards the parties in government, and while Fianna Fáil was large enough to partly weather the storm, the Greens were not.
Ryan spoke to The Journal in our offices in 2015 to look back on the party’s time in government. He said he wished it had been stronger in the first Budget of that coalition: “The fundamental problem was that for ten years, we had a politics which was based on low tax and high spend, which is fundamentally unsustainable in the long-run… I think we should have been stronger in the first year in office and said, hang on lads, let’s look at what the real economic situation is.”
In the February 2020 election, Ryan was re-elected in the Dublin Bay South constituency, where he topped the poll with 22% of first preferences. He was joined by 11 other Green TDs, making up the party’s largest ever contingent in the Dáil.
Covid-19 hadn’t been a particular point of discussion in that campaign cycle, but within weeks of voters going to the ballot boxes, daily life in Ireland had changed dramatically as the dangerous virus spread.
As the pandemic wore on, fringe groups of conspiracy theorists were making concerted efforts to spread anti-science messaging. The networks developed in far-right spaces during the pandemic were a breeding ground for other disinformation sprees that spilled over since to other areas, like climate denial. Ryan himself has been the subject of some vitriol – including, he told media after announcing his resignation, hurtful comments made about his late father who passed away in 2017.
After more than a hundred days of negotiations, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Green Party settled on forming a government together. The Programme for Government they developed was not a magnum opus for climate action but it did contain some important plans for how Ireland would play its part in tackling climate change – like ending the issuing of new licenses for exploring and extracting gas -that may not have been on the table if not for the Greens’ involvement.
It was also around this time that Eamon Ryan and Deputy Party Leader Catherine Martin went head-to-head in a leadership contest that Ryan narrowly won – 51.2% to 48.8%.
As Micheál Martin and Leo Varadkar – and later Simon Harris – swapped around the roles of Taoiseach and Tánaiste, Ryan sat in Cabinet as Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications and Minister for Transport.
He was at the centre of the passing of Ireland’s Climate Act and the legally binding carbon budgets, as well as the annual Climate Action Plans.
In the long-term, getting the development of infrastructure for offshore wind off the ground will be one of the most impactful moves for Ireland that he oversaw. Likewise, public and active transport options – while still leaving plenty to be desired – are better now than they were five or ten years ago.
It is on the international stage, though, where he perhaps had the most impact.
At the global COP27 climate conference in Egypt in 2022, the EU made him lead negotiator for the bloc on “loss and damage” – that is, how rich, heavy-emitting nations would support countries like small Pacific islands that are already suffering due to the climate crisis. It was the first time loss and damage made it onto a COP agenda and the most closely watched negotiations of the conference, which ended with an agreement to create a dedicated fund. Eamon Ryan played an important role in that.
He was the co-chair of the North Seas Energy Co-Operation in 2022 and was elected as the co-chair of the International Energy Agency for 2024.
And just yesterday, he saw the fruits of another international labour – EU environment ministers passed the Nature Restoration Law after considerable political push and pull over the last two years. Ryan and Green Party colleague Malcolm Noonan had written to reluctant member states to urge them to vote in favour of the law to get it over the line.
“I love the fact that a small country like Ireland can still have a big voice and use it,” he said in his resigning remarks this afternoon.
Here’s the letter myself & @noonan_malcolm drafted, which was signed by 10 Ministers to try & get the #NatureRestorationLaw back on the agenda today. It worked, thanks also to support from Irish & European NGOs. @IrishEnvNet @Green_Europe @WWFEU pic.twitter.com/d1XRm44VQg
— Eamon Ryan (@EamonRyan) June 17, 2024
There is, however, the matter of Ireland’s emissions. They are not dropping nearly quickly enough to keep the country on track to reach our target of cutting them in half by 2030 compared to 2018 levels. That’s something expert bodies like the Environmental Protection Agency and the Climate Change Advisory Council have warned the government about time and time again but is still not hitting the mark.
Additionally, the implementation of the annual Climate Action Plans has seen lots of actions taken but also plenty of delays. In Q3 of 2022, for instance, the Department of Environment (Ryan’s responsibility) completed only 41% of actions assigned to it on time – the worst of any government department in that period.
While Ryan was at the helm of climate policy, the government was years late submitting its long-term climate strategy to the EU and intervened in a European Court of Human Rights case by elderly Swiss women fighting for states to ramp up climate action.
As Ryan steps down as Green Party leader, it remains to be seen whether he will stay on as Minister for Climate for the rest of this Government – he indicated he would be happy to stay on but said it will be a decision for the next leader.
With a general election looming and Ryan ruling himself out of another run, one way or another, someone else will need to take up the mantle of leading the government’s climate policy. And certainly, the magnitude of the climate crisis means that they will need to do it with even more haste.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
More and more people agree. Repeal is the middle ground. Only pure extreme fundamentalists want to retain it in full.
@KEV: speak for yourself
@BillRochdayle: One extreme is “Everyone must have an abortion”. The other extreme is “Nobody may have an abortion. The middle ground of these extremes is individual choice.
@Peter Smyth: Those aborted never get a choice. That’s the problem.
@Andrew Eager: lol
@KEV: Or those that value life
@Andrew Eager: hahaha zing! My unborn kids don’t get a vote either! The crotch leans left..
@KEV: yeah agreed repeal would be the best course it is the popular opinion, its laughable fg catherine noone jumping on this, when she has been silent for years leading up to this but what can we expect from an up and coming neo liberal. A better example is to look at Deputy Coppinger, Deputy Smith, solidarity PBP’s and the majority of irish’s support for the repeal the 8th to see real activism and protest.
@Andrew Eager: Why would you give an embryo a ‘choice’ ?
@Andrew Eager: “Those aborted never get a choice. That’s the problem.”
Why? They were never aware of any such choice to begin with. A potential life doesn’t lose anything by not being brought into existence… it just isn’t. It’s not meaningful to say they never got a choice.
@Search Eagle: As much as folks like to pretend otherwise, we are talking about humans growing and developing. We also don’t let children vote, and dont make them legally culpable for their actions. Human existence is a matter of ongoing change – any insistence that there is a meaningful difference in the humanity of a fetus, baby, child or adult is entirely self-serving and to my mind, dishonest.
@Andrew Eager: if the woman is 100% certain that she wants to have that non viable embryo/foetus removed from her womb,then isn’t it better that she has it done in a safe,legal environment ? Or do you prefer her having her swallow a few pills alone,& without medical supervision ?
@Peter Smyth: I have never seen anybody suggesting that everybody should have an abortion. The fact is that there is no middle ground in this matter. Abortion is either right or wrong. If it is wrong then it is wrong in all circumstances. It is ridiculous to suggest that is permissible to take the life of the child in the womb in some circumstances but not others. Why discriminate ? Abortion is never necessary and always wrong. Vote No!
@Michael Daly: the referendum is not to decide whether or not abortion should be allowed, it is purely to decide whether or no to remove the 8th amendment. Even if the referendum is passed, abortion will still be illegal here.
@Are U Rosie too: an embryo to someone who wants to abort it, a baby to someone who wants to keep it. I don’t think any woman who has had a miscarriage says “I lost my embryo”
@Peter Smyth: Actually, it’s just ordinary, decent people with consciences who believe it’s wrong to kill unborn babies before they get to pull their first breath who want to retain it in full.
@KEV: Except that people in this country are inherently Catholic and indoctrinated by the church – nobody agrees to that and yet that’s the situation. Plus, Island populations lacking cultural exchange do not support change. Loath me, but I predict a no-repeal.
@psychiatrist: the same argument was made before the marriage equality referendum. The public overwhelmingly saw through the spin then and they’ll see through it here too. Same as the oireachtas committee. and the citizens assembly. We already have abortions here. For those that don’t tick a box, we export them. The public are sick of appeasing the extremists. They’ll pass it and pass it well because it’s the right thing to do.
@Tyrone Williams: You are being either disingenuous or extraordinarily naive. What would be the point of the referendum if not to clear the way to legislate for abortion? And,of course, the plan then is to provide access to abortion in line with the Oireachtas Committee’s proposals for abortion on demand in the first 12 weeks.
@Peter Smyth: excluding of course the right of the child that will be killed.
@Liam Egan: if you know of someone killing children, report them to the gardai, shall every woman of childbearing age be forbidden to travel abroad, just in case they travel to get a abortion?
@Liam Egan: over 80% of terminations happen during and before the 9th week of pregnancy -you wouldn’t mind showing us that image of that “child” ?
@KEV: I am not extreme and I am not a fundamentalist!!!! On yer bike Kev!
@KEV: I’ve said it before and I will say it again – all the indicators are that the referendum will be defeated. A few months ago Amnesty International published a poll showing overwhelming support for repeal – it now looks very like that poll was rigged to get a favourable result. The truth is now dawning on the Government that the reality is very different and Regina Doherty’s statement is the start of damage limitation for what is going to be a very embarrassing result for the administration.
@Clarissa: I said I lost the pregnancy after all four of my miscarriages. 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage most women walking around you have experienced it. Some will be open about it some will be private, some will refer to it as a lost baby some will refer to it as a lost pregnancy, some will hold the pain forever and some will just get on with life and although it was a sad time it was just one of those things that happen. Whatever phrase they use and whatever people they tell it’s their choice because it is their pain. Please don’t get caught up on the terminalogy people choose to use it trivialises the debate.
@Bee Johnson: it’s just it’s hard not to notice that the pro-choice side always refer to it as an embryo or a fetus. I’m sure if they themselves miscarried when initially being happy they were pregnant did not refer to it as an embryo or a fetus. I’m pointing out that they change the terminology on the same thing based on how they want to get their pro choice pout across. If anything they are trivialising what other people view as a potential baby in order to make it morally okay to kill it. Something I just will never agree with it.
@Clarissa: more emotional hogwash from you…
@Francis Mc Carthy: Emotional? I think killing a baby would make anyone emotional. I think if you don’t feel emotion about that, you must be a sociopath.
@KEV: Repeal means death for aborted babies. Our politicians won’t protect them.
@Clarissa: a 7 week old embryo is NOT a baby.
A baby is a term that is given to a newborn right up until it’s 1st birthday..Quit with the emotional BS…
@KEV: repeal isn’t the middle ground. It is in fact, the extreme pro abortion ground, because it strips the unborn of their protection, opening them up to abortion attack, and their certain death.
Pro abortion extremists (Coppinger, Zappone, Kate O’Connell, Boyd Barrett, Brid Smith, Ailbhe Smith, Colm O’Gorman, B Howlinand co) desperately want to repeal the 8th in order to usher in full abortion on demand.
Thats why they are so desperate to destroy the 8ths protection. If the 8th goes, unborn Irish babies will die by abortion in increasing numbers.
Politicians can’t be trusted on abortion, most of the most voval pro aborts can’t either.
The 8th has, and will, save lives from abortion. Look at Britain to see the alternative 200,000 aborted dead yearly. (1/5 of all pregnancies).
Don’t be conned by the “trust women” trite, empty, slogans. KEEP the 8th.
@Peter Smyth: ” individual choice” is death for the child aborted. NO choice there for him/her, just abortion death.
Don’t trust politicians or the media anti 8th, pro abortion crowd on this one. They lie to push their 12 week (and beyond) abortion death on demand agenda.
Wheres the babys choice or human right to live ?
@Peter Smyth: “Abortion for some, miniature American flags for others.”
The gap is closing. Death is a hard sell.
@DPentony: who’s being killed?
@DPentony: you should report any deaths to the Gardai.
@JJ O Riordan: Sorry fetus, embryo, thing. I forgot to use the repeal playbook & dehumanise.
@Deborah Behan: I hope the repeal campaign have the likes of you canvassing. No would gain a few votes with you going round the doors.
@JJ O Riordan: wtf??
@DPentony: Yea I know, poor Savita Halappanavar.
@Paula Hannon: It not ok for the no side to use Down Syndrome but the yes side can use Savita. Most people have sympathy for Savita but 12 weeks without restrictions is not the answer.
@DPentony: legislators, legislating is the answer. The constitution is no place for this. It never was.
@Deborah Behan: when you shake your head, does it make a rattling sound?
@DPentony: that’s what Amnesty said at the Electric Picnic. – “This is not SSM, killing babies will be a harder sell”
@Paula Hannon: still in denial!
@Sighle A. Ni Chuana: At least they’re honest. I think it was meant for their ears only though & not for wider public consumption. Wouldn’t want to let the cat out of the bag & admit what it’s all about.
@BillRochdayle:
amusing coming from a christian who by definition believes in magic
@Stephen Coveney: care to elaborate? Or is it just one of your tiresome, vacuous musings?
@Stephen Coveney: Kindly care to elaborate on yours?
@DPentony: anti abortion campaigners were asked nicely to stop weaponising Downs. By DSI. Major difference. That’s even apart from the lies they use in relation to it.
@Paula Hannon: an abortion cures sepsis?
@Paula Hannon: educate yourself savita and her daughter died due to mismanaged sepsis. Stop misusing her death to further your sick agenda
@KEV: Our legislators who are mightily paid to legislate are too cowardly to legislate on this issue.
It should never have ended up in the constitution.
@BillRochdayle: Personal attack, is that all you have?
@BillRochdayle: Poor Bill,on the losing side again.
@Ismise Máire: read the hse report. It clearly identifies the 8th as a contributing factor in her death, and recommended legal and constitutional change should be considered
@DPentony: should we contact the gardai and the chief medical examiner for a miscarriage? This can then be investigated as an unexplained death.
@Mark Hayden: That is just the HSE trying to muddy the waters to cover their own ass. They didn’t pick up that she had sepsis which is not exclusive to pregnancy. The HSE are well known for not accepting responsibility don’t the fight medical negligence cases to the steps of the High Court knowing full well that they are at fault disgraceful putting already traumatised families through that. They should accept responsibility when they are at fault.
@Paula Hannon: Savita’s death has nothing to do with the 8th amendment, in fact if the 8th is repealed, women in her position would be worse off.
The 8th amendment has a clause that allows for abortion when the mothers life is at risk. Unfortunately due to our incompetent politicians no clear law has been enacted to legislate for this. It was delayed reactions by the medical team due to the confusion caused by poor/lack off legislation that caused the death of Savita.
@Tyrone Williams: At least with the 8th in place, the doctors could claim that they were acting in accordance with the constitution, once it is removed, until legislation is enacted, they will no longer have even this small protection.
By the way, I will be voting Yes, not because I favour abortion, but because I believe that the constitution is not the correct place for this, politicians need to step up and do their job and stop hiding behind referenda.
@DPentony: Ask Deborah Behan why she got rid of her Repeal the Eight monikor if she is so determined for the appeal to succeed. She is a government sponsored troll.
@JJ O Riordan: the human baby in the mothers womb. Study some 3D Ultrascan.
U can see them being aborted to death.
@DPentony: In this context “repeal” IS death by abortion as the 12 week abortion death on demand folly shows.
How can abortion be considered as a compassionate healthcare to a woman? How can people twist language and make something evil seem as a good thing? Or do they really believe their own twisted words?
Healthcare is a big issue in Ireland. But rather than focusing on already healthy women and their healthy unborn babies (which mainly need just monitoring), focus on improving healthcare for those who really need it.
@Ania_on_coffee: I don’t get your point? I fully agree that our healthcare system is a bit shambolic, but are you seriously saying that if a woman wants a termination, because she is ‘healthy’ , she shouldn’t be accommodated? There is a lot wrong with your logic
@Ania_on_coffee: firstly you either had too much coffee or not near enough.
If you’d bothered to read ANY of the abundant background material on this issue, you’d find out just what is meant by an abortion on compassionate grounds.
As for the mainly healthy babies you mention, well, like, those aren’t the ones that compassionate abortion grounds are concerned with.
@Ania_on_coffee: you seem to be under the mistaken assumption your opinions area facts.
@Ania_on_coffee:
While I fully respect your choice not to have a termination using the word evil kind of contradicts your point of language being twisted. Consider 2 women both aged 40 one has been through 3 rounds of IVF and is over the moon to finally be pregnant the other has found herself already a mother of 4 children with a unplanned but never the less much wanted pregnancy. Both women have been given the sad news that due to their age and health complications they both have a 20% chance of dying as a result of the pregnancy. Woman 1 makes the decision with her partner and doctor that a 20% chance of her loosing her life means an 80% chance both will survive and it is a risk she is willing to take. Woman 2 however after discussing it with her parenter and doctor is of the opinion that although she would very much love to have this baby she has 4 born children who need her now and she decides that 20% chance of her loosing her life and her children being without their mother is a risk that she is not willing to take. Now I’m not trying to convince you that abortion would ever be right for you but to just consider for one second that perhaps you do not have the right to judge a women on the health choices she makes for her or her family anymore then you would accept her opinion if your child was on life support and while discussing the health options for your child with your doctor she was to storm in and demand her opinion should be taken into consideration .
@Kieran Walsh: Yes that is exactly what I’m saying, that abortion is not healthcare, certainly not abortion on demand. If a woman has a medical condition that is worsened by pregnancy, then medics should look into working on this. The purpose of doctors and biomedical scientists is to improve the quality of life, and to save life than to get rid of it.
@Ania_on_coffee: “abortion is not healthcare” – at least you’re somewhat right here, in so far as the woman literally needs to be in the brink of death right now before being granted access to one.
Scary situation. Easy to be high and mighty about this one until you find yourself in that position.
@Bee Johnson: well put Bee!
@Ania_on_coffee: Get off your moral high horse, you awful Nimbyist
@Ania_on_coffee: Well said
@Bee Johnson: Becoming pregnant for a woman when she is older- is not a death sentence. Secondly, no doctor can give definitive statistics about life or death. Human life is quite unpredictable in fact.
I’m not judging women, I’m judging the action of murdering innocent life. I consider it extremely unjust towards the unborn baby, how it’s life is dependent upon the circumstances of the parents or their attitude towards pregnancy, as you gave examples of two women.
@Ania_on_coffee: “I’m not judging women, I’m judging the action of murdering innocent life.” – which so coincidentally happens to be judging the women also, as it is the woman who might request the “murdering of innocent life”.
I’m not judging you, I’m judging the action of forcing moral grandstanding onto an already marginalized demographic.
@Bee Johnson: But I respect arguments like yours a lot more than stupid accusations by people.
The real difference between the two women in your example is the fact that one is afraid of leaving 4 children behind in case of (uncertain) death, and another has not much to lose.
But we should evaluate the morality of an action by focusing on the intention. To save life or not kill it, is a moral intention, we both agree on that. Abortion always has the intent of deliberately ending life, so it cannot be made ‘right’ under any circumstances.
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: are insults necessary? Is it doing any favours?
@Ania_on_coffee: thank you for sharing your ‘opinion’. In a functioning democracy you are entitled to one. And also in a functional democracy women have rights that do not change simply by becoming pregnant. Women are not simply vassals. In a functioning democracy their bodily autonomy remains in place regardless. In Ireland, thanks to our constitution that is not the case. The 8th needs to be repealed – as soon as possible. It does not belong in our constitution.
@Ania_on_coffee: such simplistic reductionism. So if a woman is pregnant and gets a diagnosis of FFA, and continuing the pregnancy could be seriously detrimental to her long term health, then a termination would potentially save the woman’s long term health when the fetus is non-viable anyway.
By your logic the pregnancy should be carried to term, the baby delivered stillborn, and the woman’s health put at risk.
Talk about “loving both”.
@Quango: I’ll give you an example of why it is possible. Even people that we love – can sometimes do bad things. But somehow we don’t stop loving them, and we condemn their action rather than the person.
@Ania_on_coffee: “condemning their actions” like blaming a 14 year old rape victim for not wanting to continue with the resulting pregnancy?
An argument devoid of any compassion.
@Ania_on_coffee: An uneducated fool like you wouldn’t know anyway. Your racist commenting on here proves that. Go out your apron back on and be a housewife if you want, stop getting in the way of other women.
@Quango: How is the foetus non-viable when a woman has frontal fibrosing alopecia? If a foetus is non-viable then taking it out of a woman is not the same as abortion.
@Gary Casserly: Racist commenting? What are you on about, do you have proof? ‘Go out your apron back on’ – so you call me uneducated while you cannot even spell or construct sentences.
@Quango: Is your issue rape or the fact that a girl is 14?
A 14 year old is developed physically as a 17 year old. She can give birth to a healthy baby.
Rape is a separate issue, and very serious. I think we should listen to rape victims who got pregnant. But my view about abortion stays the same.
@Ania_on_coffee: the example from my comment is completely plausible, and the expectation illustrated of how that pregnancy would unfold is exactly in line with the ideology which you are promoting.
Your response is attempt to skew the debate off topic, and stinks of the not-in-my-back-garden grand standing we see so prevalent today.
Admit it, you would have the woman carry the pregnancy to term, risk her health, and have the birth delivered stillborn anyway.
@Ania_on_coffee: You ARE judging women.
@Ania_on_coffee: my issue is with the very real X case from the early 90’s where a 14 year old rape victim was detained for attempting to travel to the UK for a termination.
Compounding the trauma which that victim underwent already you would force her through the mental, emotional and physical turmoil of being pregnant and giving birth to her rapists baby.
@Dave Doyle: What’s wrong with judging women? What’s wrong with judging men? What’s wrong with judgement? ” Everybody judges all the time. Now, you got a problem with that, you’re living wrong.”
@Andrew Eager: judging women undermines the argument of “love-both”.
@Ania_on_coffee:abortion IS healthcare ..you can actually look that up..
@Andrew Eager: So you’re happy with people who don’t know SFA about you or your life judging you?
Yeah, right.
@Ania_on_coffee: You think a grown woman life, a woman with a husband, family, friends, commitments, etc. is not much to lose to continue a pregnancy. But apparently when it’s an embryo or foetus that’s at most the size of a lime, and absolutely can’t survive outside the woman’s body, it’s morally unacceptable to end the pregnancy to protect the woman’s life. Says it all really.
@Kieran Walsh: if both woman and child are healthy physically and mentally then why is there a need for termination
@Carol Oates: A newborn baby is fully dependent on an adult for survival. A newborn is lighter than a watermelon. A newborn baby doesn’t have the life experiences of a grown woman. It is still human, just like the unborn, and equal to the life of a woman.
@Ania_on_coffee: an embryo cannot be looked after by another human-a newborn can…who’d thunk it ?
@Ania_on_coffee: Absolute nonsense. A new born bady is not reliant on a single human being’s body for survival. A new born baby can be cared for by anyone. When was the last time you saw a woman handing her 12 week foetus to someone to babysit for a couple of hours before safety taking it back into her care? If you don’t know the difference between a 12 week foetus and a new born baby, you don’t really understand the basics of biology.
@Kieran Walsh: no i think that the point is not to end the life of a healthy innocent baby. #savethe8th #punishtherapistnotthechild
#humanrightsforall
#fathershouldhaverightstoo
@Are U Rosie too: Definitions, definitions.
Let’s see now.
Health care: efforts made to maintain or restore physical, mental, or emotional well-being especially by trained and licensed professionals.
Abortion: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus.
Kind of like saying a bullet in the head is a dose of aspirin. Kind of.
@Carol Oates: I understand far more than basic biology since my degree is biomedical. If you want to debate biology with me, then go ahead. I know the physiological difference between a 12 week foetus and a newborn. Genetically they are exactly the same, but they are at different developmental stages.
It is natural for a newborn to be cared primarily by the mother, and father. If it was normal to be cared by ‘anyone’ then we wouldn’t have a society and civilization.
@Carol Oates: one wonders how a newborn baby (or bady, nice Freudian slip there, Cazza
@Bee Johnson: Hard cases make bad law
@Ania_on_coffee: The Joint Committee on The Eight Amentment of the Constitution sat for quite some time and examined all the scientific evidence put in front of them, naturally scaremongering, unscientific evidence and religious hoo-ha was discounted. The concluded the need for changing our current laws based on several points including the medical and scientific evidence presented.
On Point 2.37 The Citizens Assembly recommended that termination of pregnancy should be lawful, up to 22 weeks gestation, on socio-economic grounds. The Assembly also recommended that termination of pregnancy should be lawful, up to 12 weeks gestation, without restriction as to reason.
The Citizens Assembly made many other recommendations including the need for better services for pregnant women and more effective ways to avoid crisis pregnancies.
The Committee recommended the introduction of a scheme for the provision of the most effective method of contraception, free of charge and having regard to personal circumstances, to all people who wish to avail of them within the State.
The Committee recommended a thorough review of sexual health and relationship education, including the areas of contraception and consent, in primary and post-primary schools, colleges, youth clubs and other organisations involved in education and interactions with young people. Sufficient time must be provided in the school’s curriculum for such education and it should be taught by suitably qualified personnel. The information should be provided in an impartial and factual manner that is independent of school ethos.
@Ania_on_coffee: “Abortion is not healthcare” Abortion can be healthcare, as we’ve seen recently in this country, and denial of it in some circumstances can certainly prove fatal. It’s misrepresentation to say something like this.
May I ask if you’re a member of any organisation or religious group? Are you a practicing Catholic? Cards on the table.
“No doctor can give definitive statistics about life or death”. Rubbish. Yes they can, it does however depend on what statistics you’re requesting. Life is 100% fatal, nobody survives it.
“I’m not judging women, I’m judging the action of murdering innocent life”. Nonsense, when you use inflammatory language like “murdering innocent life” you’re hardly being neutral, are you? Judging women and provoking a deliberate response is precisely what you’re doing, you’re not respecting anyone you’re attempting to shame those who disagree with you. Morality is not yours to judge.
@Ismise Máire: But you are punishing the woman or girl who was raped and doesn’t want to carry or give birth to her rapist’s child. Pregnancy and birth leave emotional, physical, and mental scars. Not to mention having people ask who’s the dad and having to lie or admit a deeply personal trauma. Then what about when the rapist serves their sentence, if they are convicted at all, and is awarded access? Don’t say it wouldn’t happen because I heard it directly from a judge that it absolutely can. I have absolute respect for any woman who decides to keep a child of rape and she should get every bit of support and protection she deserves, but it’s monstrous to deny a rape victim an abortion if she requests one.
@Jed I. Knight: here here
@Ania_on_coffee: to go back to your original comment “how can abortion ever be considered compassionate healthcare” well for one in the case of Savita. When her cervix was open and a miscarriage was inevitable and at 17 weeks gestation her baby was far from viable. She asks for a termination because as a health professional she knew the risk of sepsis she was refused because there was still a feotal heartbeat . She died because of a direct result of the 8th and this has been confirmed by more then one doctor who reviewed her case. If she was your sister or mother or daughter would you brand her a murderer or say she had nothing to loose by respecting the 8th and not intervening medically for her own health. I very much doubt her husband or parents felt she had nothing to loose. I think perhaps along with your biomedical degree you should perhaps learn a little about empathy as it seems you have very little.
@Ania_on_coffee: What is the norm for care of a newborn is irrelevant. A newborn is not physically reliant on the body of a single human being for it’s existence. It can survive separate from the mother once cared for. An embryo or up to 12 week foetus can not. It survival is dependant on the body of the woman and in some cases the body of the woman against her wishes. You would think, someone with your claimed background would know these things.
@Jonathan of Toast: Says more about the reader than the writer when they suppose meaning where there is none.
@Dave Doyle: No problem at all with people judging me. It does strike me that people who choose elective abortions are judging the foetus unworthy of life and not as important as their own needs and wants, so I’m rather puzzled as to why you have such a problem with judgement.
@Andrew Eager: the majority of women who’ve had abortions,would already have brought ‘life’ into this world,many would have done it multiple times..best to let these decisions to the woman and her doctor…
@Bee Johnson: Savita Halappanavar, was pregnant and she went to a doctor to request an abortion. She wanted an abortion due to fear of mental trauma, and she had no symptoms at the time. Later her physical health became poorer. The doctor failed to diagnose her with an infection even though her white blood count was elevated. Her infection progressed, and she was admitted to a hospital. Her baby was monitored whether it had a heartbeat, and whether it was alive. It was still unknown that she had an infection, they thought it was simply symptoms of a miscarriage.
Only when the infection spread to other organs and when she had a fever, the infection was diagnosed. But her infection was resistant to antibiotics. She died of sepsis. There is no evidence that abortion would have saved her life. Her case is an example of medical negligence. If her infection was diagnosed on time, her life could have been saved.
“Delay or refusal to terminate the pregnancy does not in itself seem to be the cause of death. Even if the law permitted it, it is not as if her life would have been saved because of termination,” she said. “Severe septicaemia with disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), a life-threatening bleeding disorder which is a complication of sepsis, major organ damage and loss of the mother’s blood due to severe infection, is the cause of death in Savita’s case. This is what seems to have happened and this is a sequence which cannot be reversed just by terminating the pregnancy.” – Dr. Divakar — president-elect of the Federation of Obstetric and Gynaecological Societies of India
@Jed I. Knight: Pregnancy is not a disease or a medical condition, and a foetus is not a parasite that deteriorates the health of a mother. A woman may require medical treatment which can cause harm to the foetus, -this is why in many cases ‘medical’ abortion is carried out. This only suggests serious flaws in medical research. In modern day and age we should have medical treatment that can ensure the health of both the mother and the baby – and this is what needs to be worked on.
Doctors do give statistics. But even doctors and surgeons often encounter very strange events, of the survival of a patient that was strongly predicted to die. Statistics are not certainties, and it is wrong to be making decisions based on statistics alone – especially when the decision involves ending human life.
The fact that you even ask the question about my religious background – suggests to me of your own weakness. In case you run out of arguments to debate me, you can then attack me personally? Yes I am a Christian. But this is not a card that I use.
@Andrew Eager: Good. But you’ll never get pregnant will you?
@Carol Oates:
Are you suggesting that I don’t know that a 12 week old foetus cannot be born prematurely and survive? Is this the best you can do?
Yes a very young life still needs the nutrients from the mother’s body. The environment of a womb allows for the development of a foetus, in order to be able to physically survive in the environment outside the womb. Note a key word here – environment. This is the difference between a newborn and a foetus, apart from developmental differences. One is in the womb and one is in the world. The environment of a womb does not diminish the human condition of the unborn, likewise the environment of the real world does not make a newborn more human than a foetus.
@Boyne Sharky: Sorry, but what point are you trying to make?
@Ania_on_coffee: keep going, Ania, I reckon her husband will sue you soon enough. You are becoming more outrageous and disrespectful by the minute. Is it just coffee you’re on?
@BillRochdayle: Why do you see calling someone a Not-In-My-Backyard-ist as an insult, because that’s what the so-called pro-life side are, a bunch of hypocrites, happy to have women travel or procure unsafe and illegal abortions, as long as they can close their eyes and pretend it doesn’t happen, because of the almighty 8th
@Ania_on_coffee: Are you even able to vote?
@Ania_on_coffee: Could you show me where I claimed pregnancy was a disease or medical condition, and when you can’t retract your comment or apologise please.
If you wish to argue with the medical and legal community then by all means, I invite you to do so. In fact if you feel so strongly about this I assume you made a submission to the Citizens Assembly? Didn’t you?
The idea that the medical community come across these events where people who are supposed to die, don’t, does happen. They’re called anomalies – not miracles. They’re extremely rare and in most cases have an explanation. Bear in mind there are quite literally thousands of people in rural USA who claim to have been anally probed by aliens, as statistical evidence of ET, or anything else this is poor to say the least.
Your damn right I’m asking about your religious background, if it mattered so little you’d let everyone else live their lives instead of preaching to them. And I’m asking more. Remember Jesus is watching. Have you and others joined this and other forums, social media etc. in order to push an anti-abortion agenda when the topic arises? No fudging, it’s a yes or no answer.
@Ania_on_coffee: Look, that’s the recommendation of the Citizens Assembly, as Jedi indicated you’ve clearly been sitting here for the past few weeks waiting for an abortion topic to arise. Whoever you’re representing has hung you out to dry.
@Jed I. Knight: @Jed I. Knight:
Where exactly did I say that you said pregnancy is a disease/medical condition, or if a foetus is a parasite? I have nothing to apologise for.
Healthcare is required in cases when there is a medical condition such as a disease, in prevention/treatment of disease, or when testing for a medical condition. You said that abortion is a form of healthcare. So, in relation to pregnancy, where does the aspect of a medical condition come into play, I wonder?
The answer to your question about whether I am representing a pro-life group/being funded – No.
You see, it is too easy to veer off the debate and get personal, which is exactly what you do. I simply don’t see you as a worthy opponent in debate.
By the way, it’s “You’re damn right”, not “your damn right”.
@Dave Doyle: No, and neither will you. What’s your point? You seem entirely perplexed and stumped by the notion that there might be more than one person involved in a pregnancy.
@Andrew Eager: two people involved but only one gets pregnant.If that person doesn’t want to bring that pregnancy to full term,& for whatever reason,then her right to her bodily autonomy has to come first..
@Ania_on_coffee: Every medical association in the industrialised world defines reproductive care and abortion as healthcare. Anti choice folks do not get to change the definition.Awww
@Ania_on_coffee: We’re being led to believe that an account from someone claiming to be from the Ukraine which has only been active a few weeks and posted relatively banal posts suddenly came to life when the topic of abortion came up.
This person claims to be Ukrainian yet her english is so good she can spot grammar mistakes like the difference between “you’re and your”. When asked if ” she and others joined this and other forums, social media etc. in order to push an anti-abortion agenda” she answered evasively. She answered “whether I am representing a pro-life group/being funded – No.”, that wasn’t what she was asked and suggests the original question was therefore true. I actually know it is and had been told of this several week ago but, obviously, not the identies bening used.
Incidentally abortion in the Ukraine is legal on request during the first twelve weeks of pregnancy. Between 12 and 28 weeks, abortion is available on a variety of grounds, including medical, social and personal grounds, and for any reason with the approval of a commission of physicians. It’s somewhat hypocritical for someone from there to come here and criticise us on changes to our abortion laws.
@Kieran Walsh:”logic”?
whats logical or compassionate about deliberately killing a healthy baby in the mothers womb ?
If u want to kill someone, will we “accomodate” you ?
@Jed I. Knight: and there’s the xenophobe in action. A Star Wars fanboy xenophobe, no less. What a combination.
@Jed I. Knight: “When asked if ” she and others joined this and other forums, social media etc. in order to push an anti-abortion agenda” she answered evasively.”
Saying clearly “no” to your moronic question is evasive, is it?
Pilchard.
@Jed I. Knight: “not the identies bening used.”
Star Wars fanboy is all worked up in to such a frenzy, he can’t even control his tubby fingers.
Calm down, fanboy. You’re getting all worked up, you silly twit.
@Jed I. Knight: and, by the way, just because someone is from “the Ukraine” (you didn’t Wikipedia the correct use of language when it comes to Ukraine, did you? Tut tut tut), that somehow means, I’m your xenophobe-addled mind, that they can’t speak fluent English?
Well, given that your own standard of English is piss-poor, I can see why you’d be amazed at someone from another country being able to speak it fluently.
The pro-abortion, anti-immigrant, Star Wars fanboy… aren’t you a fine hodgepodge of idiocy.
@Mick Rick Jones: ” killing a healthy baby in the mothers womb”
80% of terminations are carried out before and during the 9th week of pregnancy – you wouldn’t mind putting up the image of that ” healthy baby” :-)
@Jed I. Knight: “had been told of this several week ago”… and not just a tubby-fingered Star Wars fanboy, but a conspiracy theorist too. How perfect.
The cry of “Mom, more hot pockets!” echoes from fanboy’s basement.
@Francis Mc Carthy: ah yeah, kill ‘em all at 9 weeks.
I suppose you don’t have to be an infanticidal lunatic to post here, but it helps, eh Franny?
@Jonathan of Toast: you ok,hun ?
I’ve never killed an infant in my life,pet :-)
seek some help
@Jonathan of Toast: Such aggression, one would almost think I hit a nerve. Ok as you asked nicely I’ll attempt to address your concerns regarding me in the order you ranted them, bear with me there are quite a few. I must point out at this point that I can only be honest, you may or may not appreciate this.
Xenophobe and Star Wars fanboy? I can assure you I’m not a xenophobe, that would be very hypocritical of me as my father was not Irish and I have a son living abroad, in fact my first grandchild is due later this year. We’re very excited. Star Wars fanboy? Yeah, you jumped to the obvious, and wrong, conclusion there. I got that moniker because of a severe respiratory condition, I tend to sound a bit like Darth Vader and have to take nebulisers which add to the similarity. Sorry, but the image you have of a fat Star Wars teenager in a basement being waited upon by an elderly mother is probably more indicative of your own situation…
I’m really not sure what you meant by the ‘pilchard’ reference, I’m assuming it was meant as some sort of insult, so if it helps I suppose you can consider me insulted.
Tubby fingers and getting all worked up…? I suppose I could do with loosing a little weight, and I’m told meditation is very effective to aid stress reduction. But then I wasn’t the one posting five consecutive posts complete with insults. Have you tried meditation?
There you go with more insults, you seem to be highly strung, I really feel you’d benefit from meditation. As you may have guessed by now I’m probably old enough to be your father (enough said on that, a horrible thought for both of us) this also means I’ve been around since before Bill Gates got any ideas. While one may ‘Google’, one does not ‘Wikipedia’, it would be akin to saying one ‘Britannicaed’, one may refer to or cite Wikipedia. (although this isn’t recommended in academic papers)
Now, one very important point that I must point out is an assumption you’ve made and language you’ve used, that of ‘pro-abortion’. Please point out where I said or even gave the impression that this is my view, then if you wouldn’t mind, withdraw that remark and/or apologise please. In fact, while I’m an atheist and, obviously have no religious views, abortion is not for me, having said that I cannot deny it to the next person, and I’m not about to question them on their reasons why. I’m ‘pro-choice’. I had a very good friend many years ago who desperately wanted children, she became pregnant and it quickly transpired the foetus had a FFA, extremely rare and unheard of at the time. The birth and the psychological trauma almost killed her. It took her years to get over it but, as she wanted children she spoke to the doctors and was assured it was a one in a million thing and couldn’t occur again. So she got pregnant again. She had the checks to be sure… and it did happen again. She couldn’t cope, she went everywhere, spoke to everyone. Tough, sorry but nothing they could do. Some privately suggested or implied England, an abortion. So that’s what she did. This time she didn’t recover. Without going into details she died a few years ago. So please understand when I say I’m Pro-Choice, I’m not anti immigrant, to be that would be to be anti my own existence.
A conspiracy theorist? I’m afraid with a background in the sciences and having picked up a few degrees along the way this is the last thing I am, I want proof, credible, tangible evidence. Conspiracy theory stuff is sometimes amusing but at the end of the day, nonsense.
Now I’m going to have to make an admission here I had no idea what ‘hot pockets’ were and had to resort to google, did you know those things contain 35g of fat? My cardiologist would have, well heart failure. Anyway, sorry, I’ve never even seen one let alone eaten one.
@Jed I. Knight: “Such aggression” – that’s just you projecting.
“severe respiratory condition” – haha… ahahahaha… hahaha… haha.
Having skimmed through your nonsense Mein Kampf chapter, that immediately caught my eye.
I’ll still be laughing at that tomorrow.
Oh, if it’s true, and I hope it is… aaaahahaha… etc. etc.
Pilchard.
@Francis Mc Carthy: “hun”, “pet”, Vince Clarke picture.
I see, I see, I see. Roll out the cliches.
Can you quote exactly where I said that you did kill an infant? I think you’ll find that I asked a question, Franny.
What’s an Erasure fan who can’t figure out what to do with commas (never mind understand the difference between a statement and a question) supposed to do?
Titter.
@Jed I. Knight:
Dear Darth Vader,
I apologise for laughing at you.
Rather cruel and mean-spirited of me.
I’ve been shown the light, and the error of my ways.
Yours sincerely,
JT
@Jonathan of Toast: And you presume to have the temerity to look down that pathetic excuse for a nose at others and question their beliefs, to laugh at and insult them. Yes it’s true, I have a number of chronic conditions. I’m dying. Maybe a few years, they’ll be unpleasant as my heart and lungs deteriorate, maybe not. I really do look forward to seeing my first grandchild, it’s something to aim for and look forward to.
What a pathetic excuse for a human being you are, if you’re an example of what pro-life is then I really want no part of it, if I was ever in any doubt (I’m not) you’ve put my mind at ease. I felt sorry for you and tried to be polite in my response, I explained why I have my beliefs. I wasted my time on a waste of time.
the unborn child has a right to protection from the state ,this is clearly stated in the constitution ,no to repeal ,every unborn child has the natural right to life ,not a death sentence .
@Anthony Gallagher: This is the question though isn’t it, Anthony. Who has more rights, a feotus or a citizen. And at what point do those rights start and end? The majority of people would, sanely, say that a woman has more rights than that of her womb.
@Anthony Gallagher: will you take care of them all?
@Kieran Walsh:
Why would a majority “sanely, say that a woman has more rights than that of her womb.” That would be insanity.
Surely there would be equal rights unless the life of the mother was in danger.
If those in opposition to abortion can get the humanity of the unborn across to the public in spite of the mass media dehumanising propaganda the debate shouldn’t even be close. To support abortion most people have to deny the humanity of the subject of the killing.
@Kieran Walsh: all oc this has been debated over and over. Have ypu even read the 8th Amendment? Both the mother and child are protected under the amendment and as you probably know Ireland is one of the safest countries in which to be pregnant. Before you use Ms Halapanavar’s death; she didn’t die because of no abortion; she died because of negligence in diagmosing she jad sepsis.
@Kieran Walsh: where is the sanity in destroying life?
@Seth Cheffetz: what a selfish unprincipled question ,who took care of you ,or did you make it all on your own ?
@Fran Lonergan: so a sperm and an ova meet. Two cells become four, become 8 etc. Our constitution says that life is equal to the woman it lives it. I respectfully disagree and will vote accordingly.
@Anthony Gallagher: Well said, the reality is that an unborn child is not a woman’s property or body part but responsibility and the love and care that emanates from this is what defines parenthood and the family, that is my solemn belief and why the right to life supersedes all other exigencies no matter how compelling they may be.
@Brendan Kelly:
And that is your prerogative, however, in your comment, you have already dehumanised the subject of the killing.
So that really only proves the point I made, to justify the killing, it must first be dehumanised and abortion advocates are well aware that that has to be achieved.
@Anthony Gallagher: a right to life? Doesn’t that mean that ejaculating for non reproduction is killing too? The rights of those unborn, etc?
@Anthony Gallagher: So any woman who becomes pregnant takes on the role of incubator, a mere machine.
@League of shadows: Another advocate for women as mere machines.
Women are human beings. How does that fact escape you.
@Gary Casserly:
Don’t you know the difference between haploid and diploid cells Gary?
Your comment is a demonstration of biological illiteracy.
@Sighle A. Ni Chuana: read the hse report!
@Dave Doyle: It doesn’t. But they along with men have inescapable responsibilities towards the unborn when it comes to procreation. Play the chauvinist card all you like.
@Sighle A. Ni Chuana: have you read the report properly as to why she developed sepsis in the first place? And why there was a delay in commencing the treatment.? I think you have taken very selective pieces to suit your own agenda.
@Fran Lonergan:as ANY pregnancy/childbirth can result in fatal injuries to the woman-then she has a right to protect herself -and if that means ending that pregnancy,asap-then so be it
@Anthony Gallagher: Who did you give birth to?
@League of shadows: I’m playing the reality card.
Tell me, as a man, when will you ever have to take “that” decision?
@Are U Rosie too:
She has it within her own hands not to get pregnant; when it comes to killing another human I think her rights should be measured against the competing right of the subject of the killing.
@Dave Doyle: Thankfully never and if this world was the way we wanted it to be nobody should have to make it, instead we are left with this moral dilemma which calls to the fore our core values regarding life or liberty and where our priorities lie. My consciencous alliegance lies with the right to life of the unborn, there is however a compelling argument to be made to the contrary which I can empathise with but cannot support. Just because I follow my conscience does not make me anti women anti liberty or anything of the sort and I don’t entertain those who insinuate otherwise.
@Kieran Walsh: A “foetus” fyi is a potential future citizen that unfortunately has not reached a stage of self determination and accordingly should be afforded the pertinent rights and protection from the state as all citizens.
@Anthony Gallagher: answer the question about child care, who is going to care for all the unwanted children? Had you not thought about that? Answer the question above that was out to you and stop refusing to address an issue you raised.
@Seth Cheffetz: I’m sure the answer lies among all the loving couples/individuals worldwide who would love to have children or more children of their own but for various reasons cannot but would be more than willing to adopt.
@Fran Lonergan: you do know that contraceptives fail,yes ? When they do fail,then she will have that embryo removed from her womb…you do put up some pathetic sh!te :)
@Francis Mc Carthy:
The answer to that piece of sh!te is, play adult games, accept adult responsibilities.
@Fran Lonergan: Good point, in this current entitlement driven society of ours certain (not all) pro choice followers of a more leftist disposition would aspire to a society where there is action without consequence and freedom without responsibility, a dangerous mindset if infiltrated in the collective mindset.
@Gary Casserly: Another stupid argument you are grasping at straws to justify the killing of unborn babies.
@Gary Casserly: ejaculating a
@Gary Casserly: ejaculating and fertilisation are totally different things Gary. Once the sperm is fertilised the cycle begins and a baby starts to grow, did you not study biology in school. Who will look after the unwanted babies?? Ahh, plenty of people will if they are not wanted. There are plenty people that have kids they don’t want and there are plenty of people that would love to be able to conceive and can’t and will adopt that baby. The baby in the womb is an independent person and if women don’t want to fall pregnant then they should abstain or do everything in their power to not fall pregnant, if they do fall pregnant then they should not kill it because it is an inconvenience to their life at that point in time.
@Dave Doyle: It’s not impossible. How about as the lone-parent father of a child that becomes pregnant?
@Fran Lonergan: “play adult games,accept adult responsibilities” -eh? sex isn’t as game…and the woman is being responsible if she decides that an abortion IS best for her….
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: “killing of unborn babies” <- cannot kill an "unborn baby" <- funny guy/gal :-)
@Clarissa: “baby starts to grow” – a baby is born..
@League of shadows: I don’t care what you’ll ‘”entertain” or won’t “entertain”. You come up with some find words about your conscience and “compelling argument” Yet when you deny the right of women to choose what is best for them, its all bollix.
@Nydon: He wasn’t doing much of a job of as a parent if his child got pregnant. Was he?
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Francis, you’re a fool!
On one of your comment frenzies again.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Is that not what an abortion does
@Fran Lonergan: I’m no fool,Joe .
By the way-I can reply to whomever i like :-)
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: An abortion ends a pregnancy.What is removed from the woman’s body,would be a non viable embryo or foetus.
You can look that up.
@Dave Doyle: You come up with some fine profanities for your argument too, however it doesn’t make it ethically superior to mine. It all comes to respecting liberties or protecting life in a horrible moral dilemma. Where your preference lies is what you value more, that I’m afraid is the salient reality of the situation.
@Francis Mc Carthy: It would be viable if allowed to if it wasn’t RIPPED from its mother’s womb by abortion.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: wrong! When the majority (99.9%) of abortions are carried out,the foetus is NOT viable..(you need to look up the meaning of ‘viable’ ..)
@Kieran Walsh: every individual human has its entire genetic code, unique to them, laid down in every one of its cells, from conception. Study the unoque DNA.
Unique, got it ? thats why police use it to identify people.
There, in every cell, from conception. killed by abortion.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Read what I said. I know what viable means. I said that if the baby wasn’t Ripped from its mother’s womb it would be viable if it was allowed to continue to develop like it is supposed to.
Grasping at straws to justify the killing of unborn babies.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: & the foetus isn’t viable..
poor pet
Its about time All the people of Ireland of all walks of life stood up and got out from under the Cloak of the Church..Repeal the 8th and let Women who need to have an Abortion have one without being afraid of all the Stigma that goes with it today. .We need to vote of our own free will and not be led by Individuals into voting their way …The people of Ireland need to ask themselves …will my Daughter..or my Granddaughter in the future need to access an Abortion …Not every woman will…. but for those who do we need to make it easier for them ….
@In the paper: Your first sentence is an embarrassment, people like you should not be allowed to vote on any issue, ever.
@In the paper: Ehhhh…….you’re full of crap. This country is under the cloak of the Church? Yeah that must have been how the Marriage Referendum was passed. Must also be how you find anti-Catholic articles in the mainstream media almost every day of the week. Also, do you honestly think a referendum on this issue would even be considered if the country was still under the cloak of the Church? Finally, you do know that there are atheists out there who oppose abortions??
@Nick Drake: You must be just in from mass
@In the paper: the whole getting out from under the churches cloak argument is dead and an insult to the Irish people we make our own decisions and very few today vote for or back issues influenced by catholic dogma as shown in the marriage equality vote.
@Nick Drake: well actually despite the past few years of scandals in the Church, there are still a significant number who will do what their local PP says they should, because unfortunately a lot of those people have been quite literally brainwashed for so long that they will literally ask their priest how they should vote
And guess what that white collar guy is gonna tell them?!
@Thomas McGilly: Marriage Referendum….
When have 2 men or 2 women being married in the Church ????
@Clare Love: Well done Clare
@In the paper: What’s that got to do with a country opening marriage up to every citizen in the State regardless of sexual orientation?
@Tricia Lowry: it’s actually scary how many still are influenced by the church. I’m shocked that some of them are young women of child-bearing age, who I can only assume were schooled by Iona.
@Clare Love: 78.2% of people in Ireland are Catholic. So if the church argument is valid, there is no point having the referendum.
@Clare Love: You wish that was the case. You can have a pro-life viewpoint without being a Catholic. You can also be Catholic without having been schooled by a Catholic school. You also can be a woman who’s an atheist and be pro-life!! Mad isn’t it?
@In the paper: I see you are using gbe advice of the pro abortion lobby “link prolife to the Catholic Church”. Just another tactic that people are sick listening to and realise they have nothing else to contribute to the debate.
@In the paper: whenever I read these type of comments, I am more and more convinced those making them have nothing else to say.
@Pat Bateman: whilst it is valid, and people who mention it should not be derided, it is definitely worth having this most important of referendums. It also means that the campaign to repeal still has work to do to get us there.
@In the paper: I’ve been in a church at most ten times in the past thirty years for funerals, weddings and baptisms of friends and family. I know you think it’s important to portray the pro-life demographic as populated by god-fearing folk, but pretty much everyone now knows that’s a nonsense and that ‘even’ the secular-minded can find elective abortion morally and ethically wrong through an assessment of all the facts and perspectives to hand.
@Thomas McGilly: yes we have all those real life scenarios in our country. That’s why we can’t really go by all these polls. It’s a long way off getting the 8th repealed yet but I’m hoping there’s more common sense than religion or whatnot by the time the referendum comes round.
@In the paper: You don’t have to be “under the cloak of the church” to have principles or human values
@Tricia Lowry: And as will be shown when the 8th is repealed.
@Andrew Eager: the only morals that count in an abortion,are the woman’s and the medical staffs.
@Clare Love: how does one literally brainwash someone?
@Thomas McGilly: Did they take that decision for themselves?
@In the paper: what church you speak of.
@Thomas McGilly: how many atheists are there.
@In the paper: This is not a religious issue it is a MORAL ISSUE which is why many atheists support retaining the 8th amendment.(#athiests for the 8th). Retaining the 8th gives protection to future generations of Irish unborn children sure you couldn’t do a nicer thing for them. We cannot trust politicians to do this.
@Nick Drake: bit of a dictator, aren’t we?
@Thomas McGilly: The country is in fact under the cloak of the church. Blind nuts don’t see that though..
@psychiatrist: Please provide evidence. I’ve provided three separate examples to show it’s not. Blind nuts deny facts and logic.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: your morals are happy that over 1,000 Irish women are procuring ‘unsafe’,illegal abortions in Ireland every year…
Your morals are happy that over 2,000 Irish women are choosing the slightly riskier surgical abortion in the UK,instead of the safer medical procedure…#loveboats
@Francis Mc Carthy: It wasn’t safer for the women who died after abortions in supposedly safe clinics or for those who had on going mental health problems following abortions. Of course if you deny to yourself what you are really doing killing your own flesh and blood then you may escape the mental anguish of what you have done.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: more women have died from going through with a full term pregnancy than have died from procuring a safe,legal 1st trimester abortion..Women can get mental health problems from becoming pregnant,too .Did you not know about this ? Most women don’t have any mental health problems after procuring an abortion.However,they still have to put up with people like you
you’re welcome
@Francis Mc Carthy: Looks like the TRUTH about abortion touched a nerve. Pro aborts will not be able o sell the killing of unborn babies that easily to the Irish people by using language that tries to dehumanize unborn children. What kind of person would kill their OWN FLESH AND BLOOD.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: i just provided a couple of facts to you.Did they hurt your ickle fweelings ?
i’m pro choice -which means that i’m pro what the woman decides.
By the way,are you pro abortion to save the woman’s life ?
@In the paper: …and kill babies by abortion.
the people of Ireland should oppose this evil viciousness.
As the Catholic Church, and many others, bravely does, to their great credit, despite vicious opposition from pro abortion media/political ideologues, who have NO problem killing the unborn child in the womb..
our pro abortion media are disgusting. KEEP THE 8TH, to protect lives.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Pro choice is choosing to end the life of the unborn child.
To answer your question about treatment of pregnant women.
For instance if a pregnant woman developed cancer then of course she should be treated for the cancer if that treatment caused her to miscarry then so be it. That was an unintentional consequence of the treatment not a DELIBERATE act to end the life of the child.
Nobody has a problem with that type of circumstances.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: you’re ‘pro abortion’ – that is refreshing to see..
Pro choice people understand that a certain percent of women will not want to bring a pregnancy to full term.
We want them to be able to procure an abortion in a safe,legal setting…
Anti choice people want women to procure unsafe,illegal abortions-force rape & incest victims to go through with a pregnancy-and force women to go full term with a FFA pregnancy…
Your lot are ‘pro suffering’,'pro illegal abortions’,'pro surgical abortions’ |\\7 pro death
Shame on you!
@Francis Mc Carthy: Can you read? How dare you misrepresent what I said. I am pro life and it is the 8th amendment that protects BOTH the mother and her unborn baby. The mother will always receive any necessary treatment to save her life and every effort will be made to save the baby as well.
Abortion is the DELIBERATE killing of the unborn baby.
You are deliberately twisting peoples words to try and justify the killing of unborn babies.
It is you who should be ashamed what kind of person would kill their OWN FLESH AND BLOOD. Is that not SHAMEFUL.
@Thomas McGilly: ” individual choice” is death for the child aborted. NO choice there for him/her, just abortion death.
Don’t trust politicians or the media anti 8th, pro abortion crowd on this one. They lie to push their 12 week (and beyond) abortion death on demand agenda.
Wheres the babys choice or human right to live ?
@psychiatrist: actually, this country is now under the cloak of the viciously bigotted, anti Catholic media in Western Europe pushing relentlessly their secular, pro abortion agenda.
Politicians, fearful of a belt of bad publicity, jump to their agenda, afraid to incurr secularist wrath.
The campaign to repeal the 8th Amendment will be defeated. They simply don’t have the lead they need three months out to sustain a majority at the end of May. The NO side always gains during the campaign and this will be no different. In fact, the gains for NO will probably be much bigger once people are fully informed of the extreme abortion proposals they want to replace the 8th with (abortion with no term limits on vague mental health grounds, taxpayer funded abortions, the possibility of sex-selective abortions and abortion on the grounds of disability, to name but a few).
@Emma Murphy: The decision on whether or not a woman has one is very much up to them to make so the option should be there for those who want to go through with it, whatever their reason.
@Emma Murphy: No it won’t.
@Emma Murphy: you can dream, Emma. But stop with the scaremongering about sex-selective abortions etching. And please do a little more research. Maybe even talk to someone who has endured the harsh realities of the 8th. Or better still, read the committee’s submissions to be better informed.
@Emma Murphy: “the possibility of sex-selective abortions” -are you talking about the IVF industry ?
@Emma Murphy: very true, gap is narrowing significantly
@Clare Love: disagree on Committee submissions no study on when human life begins key question
Never asked science ansewers definitivEly human life begins at conception
@Keith McDonagh: and should potential fathers have a say in such matters?
@Emma Murphy: What would your idea of a non-extreme abortion proposal now? Seems to me the current system is quite extreme.
@League of shadows: in the majority of cases,most men are involved when a woman makes her final decision…why would a woman have to tell some complete stranger that she is going to be having a termination…?
@Emma Murphy: Hi Emma once you come back to reality come back and post here.
@Francis Mc Carthy: potential father, twists to complete stranger? How did that happen
@League of shadows: Nobody should be forced to have a kid they mightn’t want just because their partner wants one. It’s either meant to be or it’s not meant to be. If it’s meant to be then great. If it’s not meant to be then you should find someone you’ll want to have kids with.
@Tony: ‘most’ men ARE involved when a woman makes the FINAL decision on whether she does or doesn’t go through with the pregnancy..in other words,they’re in a relationship..you can look these stats up…
@Emma Murphy: our pro abortion media and their political allies, will do everything they can to destroy the 8ths protection of the unborn, as they push their abortion agenda like Britains 200,000 aborted dead per year.
Our politicians can’t be trusted. The 8th has saved countless lives since 1983, and should continue its good life saving work.
@Mick Rick Jones: the 13th saves REAL lives :-)
@Keith McDonagh: no it isn’t only their “choice”.
There are two other people involved.
The baby killed by abortion, and the father of the child killed by abortion.
Forgot them, did u ?
@Emma Murphy: The no side support lowered during marriage equality referendum. The gap is absolutely enormous at the moment. A landslide. How you think it will go from a landslide yes to a no in two months is beyond me.
@BillRochdayle: No it’s not.
People who don’t support repeal much like marriage equality outwardly say what the popular vote is. Privately they hold different opinions and the referendum is the only poll worth considering.
@Hank_Scorpio: very true. And no one took in the Home to vote votes. This will be close.
@Deborah Behan:
Home to vote votes = Vote fraud.
@Fran Lonergan: Home to Vote votes = woke Irish nationals fulfilling their civil duties as Irish citizens whichever way they vote.
@PJ:
Most reasonable people realise that the planeloads of home to vote emigrants were committing voter fraud but the authorities chose to turn a blind eye and did nothing about it.
@Hank_Scorpio: you know everyone then
@Deborah Behan:
trust women ?
200,000 babies “trusted women” in the UK last year. They are ALL now aborted dead.
ALL women are such saints, aren’t they ? They NEVER abort babies for trivial, selfish or reasons of inconvenience – would they ?
200,00 dead aborted babies in Britain last year.
@Mick Rick Jones: you would prefer the “good old days” when women would drink bleach to get rid of that ‘inconvenience’
@Mick Rick Jones: A few thousand Irish women had abortions last year. Nearly 150000 Irish women had abortions in the last 30 year’s. Statistically it’s likely quite a few women you know such as friends, family members or work colleagues, have had abortions. Almost 1 in 10.
@Mick Rick Jones: “ALL women are such saints, aren’t they ? They NEVER abort babies for trivial, selfish or reasons of inconvenience – would they ?”
A baby isn’t an “inconvenience”, it’s a lifelong commitment. There’s a weird vibe from certain posters here. It seems less about protecting “babies” and more about punishing people for having sex.
I never believed the opinion polls that had Trump and Brexit loosing and sure don”t believe this opinion poll either.
@GO GREEN:
Trump did lose. He was beaten by 3% in the popular vote. The polls were pretty much spot on.
For Brexit it is untrue to say that polls all showed Remain winning. In the run up they were split.
@Brinster: spot on!
Those polls got it right!
Gap is closing.
I would urge everyone to google an image of a baby at 12 weeks. See their little bodies and decide could you poison this little baby and stop their heart beating.
@Pconor: Should google meat being processed too, google an abattoir. Do you eat meat? I want you to watch that, watch videos of animal slaughter, watch the entire video and don’t look away. Do it now.
@Pconor: Advocating abortion porn, where they use pictures of miscarried feotuses as the result of “abortion”.
@Pconor:
I don’t need to google that image. I had a miscarriage at 11-12 weeks , and unfortunately the image of which you speak is burned onto my heart and soul. That baby was very much wanted and grieved over. It my head and heart it was a baby, but there is no way in reality it was a baby with the same right to life as a woman. It was something quite different to a baby that was born at term.
It is grossly insulting and insensitive I feel, to use images of a 12 week old foetus in this debate, or images of children who have Downs Syndrome. I have no idea what will be the outcome of the referendum, but I wish you would have some sensitivity around the things you say. You will have your say at the ballot box, just as I will.
@Pconor: ah are you the one that’s being reported for posting disturbing images of a miscarried foetus post D&C?? And passing it off as an abortion pic?
Medical term for miscarriage: spontaneous ABORTION.
The only thing achieved by these images is upsetting every women who has had to undergo a D&C after a miscarriage.
@Joan Ryan: my sincere sympathy and condolences to you, Joan. And I apologise if my reiterating this point upsets you again
@Pconor: did you watch that video? Hello? Are you there and did you watch the abattoir video? Watch it.
@Pconor: more scaremongering from the ‘pro suffering’ side…
@Clare Love:
No apology needed, we are making the same point I suspect, but your kindness is much appreciated.
@Dave Doyle: If you say it is pornographic then it must be shocking. Technology can show exactly what happens during an abortion.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: It is porn. No other words to describe the scam that portraying the results of miscarriages pretending they are aborted feotuses.
@Joan Ryan: We lost our first. Miscarried at 6 months. My wife might as well have given birth. All we were told was IT wouldn’t have survived. Nothing else. Left to go on our merry way. We were naive.
@Pconor: it’s not a baby at 12 weeks – it’s a non-viable foetus. Google that.
@Dave Doyle: You missed the point I was talking about the actual procedure of an abortion. If you Google it I am sure you can find it online. Stop grasping at straws saying that the pictures the pro-life campaigners are showing are as a result of miscarriage. There is no shortage of aborted babies to show aren’t there thousands of them in OTHER COUNTRIES every year.
@Pconor: Google an image of a chimpanzee fetus at the same developmental stage and it’s almost indistinguishable from a human fetus… If your point is that just because something looks vaguely like a human it should be given the same rights as one I wouldn’t Google early stage mammalian fetal development where a human fetus looks pretty much like a feline of canine one…
@Dave Doyle: I’m sorry to hear of your and your wife’s loss. I’m sorry to hear about the way you were treated too. Take care of yourselves.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: I’m not grasping at any straws. the pro-birthers are, they use the pictures of miscarried feotuses as abortion porn.
I’m not in the least interested in googling your porn.
@Dave Doyle: Truth hurts it seems
@Pconor: try googling any invasive medical procedure and the images will turn your stomach, doesn’t mean they’re bad though
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: yeah and over 3000 of them are exported by our lovely island.
I won’t go in to the “abortion/miscarriage” definition with you again cos it clearly didn’t hit home with you the last time you pulled that stunt.
@Clare Love: People have a choice if the laws and constitution in this country don’t SUIT them perhaps they should CHOSE to move to a country where the laws are more suitable to their needs and the killing of unborn babies is allowed
@Dave Doyle: u can see 3D Ultrascan of moving babies in the womb — and then see them dead from abortion.
Pro aborts NEVER mention the baby aborted to death, in case people see the reality of dead, aborted babies. Pro aborts selectively twist the language to hide abortion reality.
But the 3D Scans of aborting babies in the womb, don’t lie.
On one of the FB pages that supports the Repeal the 8th movement a discussion took place the other night that was a real eye opener.
It started with a woman stating while she doesn’t agree with abortion, or could ever see herself having one, she supports the right of women to choose what is right for them.
The thread ran into hundreds of comments, 90% of which were from women. A huge number of those comments were from the point of view that though many women personally don’t see abortion as being right, they will support the Repeal movement, in that no woman takes the decision to abort easily, no woman goes out to have an abortion for the fun of it. Abortion is a fact of life in Ireland. Like it or not. Why should any woman be forced to endure an unwanted pregnancy, just because it may go against the moral objection of others? Why should any woman be forced to make a journey on her own, without support, to have a medical procedure that will have taken much thought and soul searching on her part? Why should any one reduce any pregnant woman to the status of no more than a machine, because this is the way your morals leads you?
The Repeal the 8th is all about choice. About every woman’s bodily autonomy. About every woman’s right to decide for herself what is best for her. It is not about abortion, it is about the right to decide.
@Dave Doyle: “Its not about abortion, it is about the right to decide”.. Actually it IS about abortion. There will be certain people you can decieve with that statement, Dave. The abortion industry is based on deception and lies.
@Sinead Hanley: What’s “the abortion industry”?
@Sinead Hanley: “The abortion industry” tell us more Sinead as you apparently have knowledge of this “industry”
@Sinead Hanley: The Repeal the 8th movement is all about CHOICE.
Those who think women have no rights to bodily autonomy, or the right to choose, those pro-birthers, see it in terms of abortion.
Like it or not, abortion is a fact of life in Ireland. Women are choosing. But they can’t choose in their own country. Their medical treatment is restricted to the point of death because of the 8th amendment.
And you support this.
@Dave Doyle: Its easier say CHOICE than ABORTION isnt it. Ye want abortion on demand and a huge part of the population are very uncomfortable with abortion which they see as the ending of a tiny life. Abortion doesnt make a distressed vulnerable woman unpregnant. It makes her the mother of a dead baby.
@Sinead Hanley: no such thing as ‘unpregnant’ really. An abortion ends a pregnancy so a woman who has one is no longer pregnant. There is no dead baby. Whether a woman is a mother or not depends on whether she has given birth to a baby. We don’t refer to woman whose pregnancies end as a result of miscarriage ‘mothers of dead babies’ for several reasons. One is that it is a horrible, hurtful thing to say. So please, even if you can’t feel any compassion, choose your words more carefully.
@EvieXVI: “whether a woman is a mother or not depends on whether she has given birth”.. Tell that to the thousands of mothers who lost their much wanted babies through miscarriage, who never got a chance to hold their babies. If they are not mothers to you, (cos you say they didnt give birth) then what are they? Please chose your words more carefully.
@Sinead Hanley: please read what I said before commenting – I asked for sensitivity. You don’t know me. You don’t know what I’ve experienced.
@Sinead Hanley: why did you have an abortion,Sinead ?
@Dave Doyle: “not about abortion” – get real.
Every abortion “choice” you advocate, kills a baby in that abortion — with NO choice for that child, just death.
wheres your concern for that childs ” body autonomy”..? and their “human rights” ?
Interesting, and amusing, how pro aborts like u, use every euphemism and claptrap to hide abortions end result, that is death for the child.
So Simon Coveney was reflecting a lot of the middle ground thinking. A long way to go still on this one.
@kevin: That is exacrly why Coveney supports repeal. The Constitution currenly prohibits middle ground thinking. Legislation can deal with complexity and compromise in a way that constitutional absolute cannot.
@Terry McClatchey: what is the line in the referendum going to state? If it’s just one question then why do we have pulls on whether you support repealing the eight and up to 12 weeks for abortion as a second question? Your either for abortion or against abortion at the end of the day..
@Lad: the government will publish the heads of a bill that will legislate for abortion before the referendum. So the people who vote for remove can see what will be put in its place.
@Lad: You don’t get it, do you? All the keep the 8th campaigners are doing, is expressing a severe case of Nimbyism, because fact is, whether you like it or not, abortions have been happening as long as humans are around, and they’ll continue to happen, the only question is, do you care enough about women to allow them access to safe abortions in their own country, or are you content in plugging your ears, closing your eyes, and pretend that abortions don’t happen, while thousand’s of women are forced to travel abroad and face judgemental @rsh0les like you
@Lad: A simple binary question. Repeal the 8th v retain the 8. IF repealed, legislation is then the place to deal with the complexites of gestational boundaries, medical inputs and impacts of rape, incest and ffa etc. Those are complex matters that cannot be reduced to a managable referendum question.
@Lad: If the vote to repeal the 8th amendment is successful, you will never again have a say on this issue because you will have handed over to the politicians the power to legislate whatever aay THEY like. That legislation can be changed anytime depending on who is elected in the future.
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: Very well put. Thank you!
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: I’m NIMBY about many things, murder, child sex abuse, rape. These are all things that are facilitated abroad in some places in some shape or form, through cultural prejudices and legal malfeasance. If you are consistent, then you will be happy for those same things to be permitted here, and that we should rid ourselves of any prohibition of these on our Statute books.
Let’s be quite clear. The country’s electorate is not made up of lemmings. Just because another country is doing or not doing something, is not in and of itself, a reason for us to follow likewise. You’re going to have to do a lot better than “because other folks are doing it.”
@Andrew Eager: Where does our government tell it’s citizens to do those things that you have mentioned ,Andrew? They don’t… However,they do tell our women on where to go for a safe,legal abortion..
@Andrew Eager: What an unbelievably stupid argument.
@Dublin_Den: I agree Dublin_Den, that’s what I was trying to point out to Larissa – just because something is the norm elsewhere, doesn’t make it legitimate. If that was the case, we’d have to accept that the Saudi attitude to women reporting rape was legitimate, which of course, we all know, is entirely nonsense.
@Terry McClatchey: where exactly is this “middle ground ” u speak of, between life and death, to be born or be killed by abortion ?
The word ‘ fundamentalist’ is thrown around a lot mainly aimed at people who want to preserve life in the womb except in cases of real medical necessity where the mothers life is threatened. Who would an impartial observer say was a fundamentalist. Would it be the person who permits tearing a developing baby apart limb by limb, finishing by crushing the head, and just or permits chemical poisoning unto death of the developing baby. Or would a fundamentalist be one who supports preserving life where practically possible. All of our rights are conditioned by the rights of others, even as grown adults.
@Rob_Kennedy: A fundamentalist on this issue is anyone who thinks they have the right to demand that women see the issue only from their point of view. It is really fundamentalist when it is men telling women what they must do when pregnant. It is those who believe their morals are far above any woman’s right to choose, and those morals gives them the right to decide for other women.
If you believe that women have the right to decide what is best for them, then vote to repeal the 8th.
If you don’t believe that women have the right to decide what is best for them, then vote to retain the 8th.
It’s that simple.
@Dave Doyle: By that measure, fundamentalist would have to include those that deny that the foetus in a human female’s womb is anything other than a human.
It is hard to sell death.
@Adam Reid: All that is required for evil to thrive is that GOOD PEOPLE DO NOTHING. Go out and vote to save the 8th you don’t want to be thinking later I helped to let 8th is happen by not voting.
Is it OK to smoke during pregnancy as it does not harm your cluster of cells?
@BillRochdayle: Bill, you’re not exactly making any point.
@BillRochdayle:
Repeal Regina full stop.
@BillRochdayle: daft comment
I have a question, how many people who support repeal the 8th and commenting here voted yes in the Children’s Referendum? Truly oxymoronic!
@Alan Beirne: Very good question
The leftists believe this poll, but not the 2 polls which have Fine Gael Inca commanding position to lead the next government. Interesting.
@BillRochdayle: sorry, should have said Aztec
There is, of course, only one poll that matters. I am confident that when people see the immediate threat to the life of the child in the womb up to 12 weeks if the 8th Amendment is repealed they will baulk. Vote No!
@Michael Daly: The amendment is about repealing the 8th, do keep up
@DJ François: The Amendment is about keeping the Eighth or replacing the Eighth with an enabling article enabling the Oireachtas to legislate for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks gestation. An Taoiseach’s use of ‘enabling ‘ has unfortunate connotations as anyone who learned history in school will know that Hitler as leader of a minority government in 1933 persuaded the German Parliament to pass an Enabling Act enabling him to rule by decree. This Enabling Act was the basis of Hitler’s dictatorship until his suicide in 1945.
@DJ François: And why,I wonder, do they want to repeal the 8th? Oh yes, now I remember. To legislate for abortion on demand up to the 12th week. I think you’ll find I am well up with what’s going on. You, on the other hand, were just trying to be smart and failing miserably.
We need clear definitions from both the medical and the legal profession on “what is considered a life” and “ what is considered taking a life and then again on “what grounds are justified in taking a life”. We take life in war which is apparently justified, we take life in executions which is apparently justified, in abortion we also take life and in many juridstictions it is justified (or legal) given certain paramarers. So lets drop the fudge and the pretence …. the question is “is it justified” and if so in what circumstances. The people have to decide and in doing so they can not be lead by vested interests. People have to decide. Remember, never allow the freedom to form your own opinion to be taken away from you. You must ignore the spin and misinformation of vested interests.
@Moderate Man: excellent post, well done and thank you
The polls were sooo reliable with brexit and trump weren’t they???
Seem more about trying to sway voters than reflect the reality – we will see
The public do not know what legislation the government will bring in,and future governments can change it.thats a big problem because the public cannot trust politicians.
@@mdmak33: If the 8th is repealed it doesn’t matter what legislation they say they will bring now as it can be extended right up to birth at the stroke of a pen at any time in the future and the Irish people will NEVER again have a say.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: hysterical and unfounded claim
@DJ François: Not so Repeal means giving the Oireachtas a ‘ blank cheque’ to draw up any kind of abortion law they wish. The lives of future generations of children will be effectively in the hands of the 150+ members of the Dail. A government majority in the Dail and Seanad and a pro-gov. President could legislate for mandatory abortion/ one child families or a pro-life majority could vote punitive penalties on all who seek or carry out abortions. The electorate would be powerless to prevent either possibility. Be very careful what you vote for. It could turn out to be very different to what you want.
@DJ François: No if the 8th is repealed abortion right up to birth can be legislated for at any time by our untrustworthy politicians 100% FACT.
@DJ François: O’Gradys prediction is absolutely spot-on. Look what happens elsewhere when abortion is introduced.
Had this out with the misses the other day. my point was once the babys inside you its yours but once it comes out its ours. Shes didnt answer
@The flute smoker: did you forget to remove the masking tape ?
@The flute smoker:
Expect constancy from ideologues and dogmatic thinkers – they dont have a consistant view – simply a demand.
They don’t care if it makes sense – the basis of all injustice and revolution – totalitarianism
Demands that men and women be exactly equal – against reality = crazy
Demand that we ignore the baby in the equation = crazy
Demand that we have equality of outcome when men and women make different choices = crazy.
Demand we accept gender is a social construct = crazy
Demand we accept trans genders are not social constructs but based on “birth” = contradictory and crazy.
etc etc….
All these ideologies are linked and flawed equally – they stem from profound anti-science anti-science anti-rational social pressures from bitter lobby groups – without a fully thought through rational….
gonna be an interesting decade….
Say what you want. Its not black and white. Its not a vote for murder. But this comes down to a vote about choice. I would never be in favour of an abortion due to anything other than a fatal abnormality but I also understand that my morals are my own and I cannot force them on others. People will continue to go to the UK so why not keep them home?
@Mark H:
So do you believe that morals are totally subjective Mark? Or is there a standard against which morality can be measured?
Would it be morally acceptable for someone to keep a slave if their morals deemed it okay?
@Fran Lonergan: Is it morally acceptable we allow females travel to the UK for an abortion or should we check every female who’s travelling abroad to see if she is pregnant before allowing her to travel?
@Kerry Blake:
We cannot act immorally by technically imprisoning a person by denying them liberty.
@Fran Lonergan: But it’s ok to deny women the liberty to choose what is in their own best interests.
@Dave Doyle:
How is denying someone the means to kill another human denying them liberty? You do not have the liberty to kill.
@Kerry Blake: if you believe, like scientists, that human life begins at conception then abortion is the intentional killing of human life. That is the only purpose of abortion; to kill human life which,without direct intervention to cause its death, would continue to live. That being so abortion is intrinsically of itself always wrong and no circumstances can justify it
@Kay Kehoe: That’s your opinion, most people can see that there is little in life that is so black or white.
And you are wrong to say that there is no scientific consensus about when human life begins. It has been debated by scientists, and theologians, for centuries. ‘Conception’ isn’t even a single moment, and there is no consensus about when this occurs.
If you want to believe something, fine, but please don’t resort to blatant untruths.
@Fran Lonergan: thanks, but I know how to use Google.
And that this is one article, on one web site, that doesn’t even pretend to be anything other than one view.
@Fran Lonergan: Where did i say anything about killing?
@EvieXVI: Sorry This is the opinion of scientists like US gynaecologist who was the medical mastermind behind the campaign to legalize unrestricted abortion across US. In 1973, year of the Roe v Wade judgment legalizing abortion, this doctor Nathanson was asked to lead a research unit in New York into fetology. His researches led this Abortion King to declare , ‘Fetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception. As a scientist, I know, not believe , know that human life begins at conception’ and never did another abortion. Professor Reville UCC explaining that human life is a continuum beginning at conception and ending in natural death wrote in 2008, ‘Each point on the continuum is fully human with the full human properties appropriate to its stage of development.’
@Kay Kehoe: one man, one opinion
@EvieXVI: my point is simple. As I said already, there is no consensus. Even if this opinion is taken as fact, it ignores the fact that ‘conception’ is not a simple, single instant, but, again, a point of contention. All a bit mundane and irrelevant, perhaps, but better to stick to facts, surely?
@EvieXVI: Hi Evie, can you point to a scientist who believes human life does not begin at conception? We’ve had two scientific opinions to the contrary of your assertion now.
@Fran Lonergan: Dr Condic ? lols ;-) The “expert” that say that a foetus can feel pain at 10-12 weeks :-)
Nice try though :-)
@Mark H: because our abortion rate,i.e. more dead babies, will soar — with an abortion clinic convenient at hand.
“force your morals on others”? what a cop-out. Everyone should oppose abortion killing.
Like the Nazi Holocaust, we will look back at the abortion death toll and ask why we stood by and let it happen.
This referendum is not about whether or not abortion should be legalised. It is about whether or not the constitution is the way to deal with such issues.
Even if the Yes vote wins, abortion will still be illegal in Ireland.
@Tyrone Williams: Finally a sensible comment
I am totally against free abortion up to 12 weeks. At 12 weeks the helpless baby is fully formed. There are so many people out there who would love to adopt one doesn’t have to keep the baby after it is born
@Vera Reidy: if the foetus was fully formed at 12 weeks, how come it’s not viable outside the mother’s womb?
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: because thats how human biological nature and nurture works.
u can see the child on 3D Ultrascan formed, — before abortion kills them.
killing babies by abortion in the womb is still killing.
Majority of the electorate! About a third won’t bother voting.
the so called ` citizens assembly` 12 weeks is going to sink this referendum..just watch
Pure propaganda! Hitler used the same tactics to convince an overwhelming majority of Germans that it was necessary to murder millions of Jews. Here we are falling for it again so we can have a legacy of murdering millions of babies.
@Phil Swan: ***Godwin Alert***
It’s somewhat disturbing, if not alarming, to note the amount of accounts which are only a few weeks old, a month or two at most. These have made a few comments on trivial issues, always being polite but rarely engaging. However, when a topic related to abortion arises suddenly they emerge and begin posting in earnest- and every one is Pro – Life. They’re seeding forums like this and I’m told others too, I’ve been told of similar cases involving social media. This is clearly a planned campaign.
Give women the chance to get the results of CVS/Amniocentesis and decide whether they want to continue with the pregnancy from that point.
@Stipe Miocic: Eugenics FTW!
A look over the wire of Irish media: http://youtu.be/CFZDhM5Gwhk
Fingers crossed the Yes side don’t get their May date. Although in that event i reckon Leo would box clever and push it to the autumn. If the students are gone for the summer it won’t pass. Hopefully there’ll be some sort of delay ;)
Noones pro abortion Committee — supposedly “impartially hearing” from experts. What a biased farce, a Committee stacked with its mind already made up.
They heard from 28 “pro choice” (ie pro abortion) witnesses, like say BPAS, the British abortion supplier, and 3 token prolife people, dragged in late, when the lopsided pro abortion bias became too embarrassing, even for Noone and her fellow pro aborts “on their journey” towards abortion on demand, like Leo.
Interesting to see pro abortion Fine Gael cheerleader Regina Doherty “selling” 12 abortion on demand “to people” .
She, and her fellow pro aborts, are living proof that ONLY the 8th can now protect unborn children from abortion, before Doherty and her ilk, “do a job of work” on them.
So, keep the 8th. Dump the Fine Gael pro aborts out of office, before they do more damage.
@Mick Rick Jones: the pro abortion NWCI guff about “compassionate healthcare” is nonsence.
Killing healthy babies deliberately by abortion is not “compassionate”. In fact, very often it is driven by selfish lack of compassion for an inconvenient pregnancy and results in a dead aborted baby.
The NWCI Orla O’Connor pro abortion pushers are, incredibly, funded by every taxpayer.
Any woman, or womens group, who genuinely opposes abortion, should disaffiliate NOW from this pro abortion front group.
Remaining only adds your name to their pro abortion anti 8th drive, which will result in abortion on demand, their aim.
Dump them.
@Mick Rick Jones: Are there any cases where you think abortion should be allowed?
@Search Eagle: not when as the scientists know human life begins at conception. If you wish I can fill one of these posts with names and quotes of scientists, embryologists, etc who believe human life begins at conception. Know I gotta this you are never going to agree to abortion. However I don’t blame you. The two Committees and the media studiously avoided the question when does human life begin. I now know why this question is not and won’t be asked.
Amazing ? prolife people opposing babies being aborted to death.
Our pro abortion media pave the way for their political pro abort mates, to soften public opinion into accepting abortion on demand.
Boycott pro abortion media. Place your ads and money elsewhere.
@Mick Rick Jones: lols
No apology required. I think we are making the same point. I appreciate your post and your kind response. J
No point arguing when we both truly understand the other side’s point. It’s all been said, you’ll never convince the other side, if they’ll come around to your way it’ll be done by them alone and for the right reasons.
I don’t believe polls anymore !
Interesting how the Fine Gael spin doctors got R Doherty to radically change her pro abortion, anti 8th tune between the 1 and 6 o’clock News bulletins (“it won’t pass/will pass”).
BIG spin panic at FG spin HQ with Dohertys “won’t pass” gaff.
Only 1 pole matters
To much speculative analysis, does not help either side IMO
But it kills babies???
have your say