over abortion in case of danger to the mothers life?

Agree. Anyone who was alive in the era of the various abortion referendums will recoil from the rancor that will infect the debate on this – I’m just waiting for it to commence below within minutes.

Kevin – it’s being taken to the Dail by members of the technical group, not Fine Gael/Labour. Chances are it’ll be debated, then quietly disappear again, sadly.

sorry Evelyn but your assumption that no one has an issue allowing abortion in cases where the mothers life is in danger is wrong, i know people that have that exact issue

Well said…

Revolting Peasant, you’re right there are definitely people like that. Some for honestly held conscientious opinions (Hanly Sheelagh), and others for idealogical and frankly fanatical reasons. The problem is that the second group hides behind the first – but that has spawned another problem whereby anyone who doesn’t demand abortion on demand is assumed to be a religious zealot

Lots of atheists and agnostics think life is precious too. It behoves reasonable people to allow for nuance in the debate and not just write off anyone who doesn’t agree as an extremist. Look below and you’ll see people doing exactly that to Evelyn. It’s not something to be absolutist about. Much like abortion itself, in my opinion

Not very well because those of us who are against abortion on any or all grounds know that this issue re mothers life at risk is a red herring, being used to pull at the heart strings for support . How many mothers lost their lives in Ireland due to the non availability of abortion in the last five or ten years? I’d say none because mothers lives are not in danger because doctors don’t allow mothers to die if they are in danger they are treated for whatever they need to be treated for. Such a pity so many people fall for the lie and so many innocent babies have to die. Most abortions happen for social reasons / not a good enough reason to take a baby’s life.

Very surprised to see Wallace, who represents hyper conservative Wexford, pushing this.

Actually Sheelagh, if you ever find the time inbetween spouting unsupported nonsense based on nothing but your own sense of righteous indignation, you should watch a documentary called “Lake of Fire” which goes into great detail about the number of women who tragically die from unsafe or self initiated abortions in countries where they are illegal.
If those numbers are lower in Ireland than in other countries, it is only because it is relatively easy to access abortion in the UK.
Also, if it all possible could you back up some of your nonsensical statements with some kind of supporting reference or statistic?

Hanly Sheelagh that numbers are wrong for women who were in danger traveled to have abortions.

Lovely to see Sheelagh exhibiting so much care and compassion for women who find themselves in a situation where their life is in significant danger as a result of pregnancy. Apparently, suicide for example in her eyes is not a risk to someone’s life! I’m struggling to see the logic in that in any way shape or form.

hyper conservative Wexford ???

Sheelagh I believe that the best advocate for the unborn is the mother that is why I’m pro choice.

Remember Anne Lovett……….rip

I expect they’ll lock arms and block cemeteries…

Have you been waiting to use that line since Bill Hicks wrote it?

well said Sheila

This is a constitutional matter for this country and as such is a public matter and has been debated publicly for some time now. I know that I have never seen any figures for the number of women who died because they were denied abortion when their lives were in danger. There are no figures for women travelling to Britain because their lives are in danger. I know a few women who travelled for abortions who just didn’t plan a particular pregnancy and it was going to make their lives difficult. I also know one person who did this and she is still suffering from serious depression since. Some of those who say aborting a baby is a personal decision but is not as simple as that. Because I am prolife doesn’t automatically make me self righteous, in fact I think people who make laws or support such a law that will make it legal to take the life of an unborn baby for social reasons and try to pull it off as concern for the mother’s life is much more likely to be self righteous. “hard cases make bad law”.

Sheila I totally agree with you, like the divorce debate which thankfully went through…nobody is forcing anybody to have an abortion if they don’t want one, or get divorced if they don’t want to… personal choice, choice being the important word here. I agree with abortion in certain circumstances!

Thanks Lois & Joan; this is such an naturally emotive subject for everyone – after all there’re is nothing lovelier than a baby ;-)

Hi Hanly; Yes it is a constitutional matter and as you know, means that that we get to vote on changes; The problem is that emotions/passions run very high on this issue and the initial reasons as to why the change was required gets lost in the furore. But in the end, just because something is enshrined in law or not does not mean that it’s “a fit” for everyone in the country. (I’m not saying that we should pick & choose the laws we follow – there lies the road to unfairness and anarchy)

” There are no figures for women travelling to Britain because their lives are in danger” . There are no figures for women travelling to Britain – full stop – and that is part of the problem – how can these ladies be assisted when we’re not even aware that they are thinking of going, never mind actually going, or their reasons for doing so – i doubt anyone takes such a drastic step lightly.

I believe people of all ilk and opinions can be self-righteous; that doesn’t make them either right or wrong – and I don’t think I ever said that you were. ;-)

I too know quite a few women who had terminations (some from here in Ireland, some from when I lived in the UK) and I can honestly say not one of them regrets their decision. Now I’m not saying that given different circumstances that they might have gone ahead with their pregnancies but they believe to this day that their decision was the correct one for them.

I think we have to be careful with our use of “social reasons” – what’s important to one person (and I’m not talking about “what the neighbours think” here) might be of little concern to another.

If we had a society that absolutely cherished (not just claimed to) all people and all children, then I’d be hopeful that abortion wouldn’t be here – but we do not live (or ever will) in an ideal society where absolutely everyone is supported to the utmost. That is why I do include this decision as a personal choice.

I think we’d also be very surprised at the demographic of people who do have terminations – we’re kind of indoctrinated in this country into thinking about the young single girl; the ill mother; the rape victim – but I believe that if the demographics were recorded we’d find that the decisions are being taken by people who previously would not have considered it at all and now cannot unfortunately see any other way of coping. And whilst I hesitate to raise the current austerity program and the crash of the boom in this thread, I think that people now considering and/or going for a termination are more “silent” victims of those events.

You are not entitled to your opinion when your opinion consists of jailing women and doctors who do something legal in the vast majority of democracies. What happens if we become the majority and decide to jail your priests?

William, “pro-life” is not a synonym for “religious”.

There is a VERY high correlation between “pro-life” and religion so I was correct.

@William in my experience you are right, and don’t worry, it won’t be too long before you are in the majority if that isn’t already the case

@William- who do you think you are? EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether or not you agree with it.

“You are not entitled to your opinion when your opinion consists of jailing women and doctors who do something legal in the vast majority of democracies. What happens if we become the majority and decide to jail your priests?”

She IS entitled to her opinion and she didn’t call for anyone to be jailed. We are under no obligation to follow other countries. She didn’t mention religion.

Can you not challenge her argument based on what she DID say?

Mathew, how about pedophiles, rapists, child abusers, con artists, people who manipulate vulnerable children, slave owners…….oh that’s a lot of the Catholic hierarchy.

Evelyn, William Grogan is hitting on the truth, even if he is approaching this from the opposite end of the debate of this than me and you. This is a clear cut case of right and wrong, and there is no way to sit on the fence. Whether you view the mother’s life more important, or the child’s life, the opposite side is WRONG. The clue to why this is, is in the meaning of the words “LIFE”, and “CHOICE”. These words have ideological significance, as they are human rights. The problem is defining where they apply.

Personally speaking, I back this amendment. I’m pro life, and the mother has the right to life as much as the unborn child. She has the right to decide whether to sacrifice her life or not. Although strictly speaking, the unborn child cannot speak for itself, and should be made a ward of court, I’m disinclined to accept this. The child’s life depends on the mother, and this leaves it to the mother (de facto, if not de jure) as the legal guardian who make the moral choice on her own conscience.

Besides, the mother would feel guilty afterwards, and that is punishment enough.

“Mathew, how about pedophiles, rapists, child abusers, con artists, people who manipulate vulnerable children, slave owners…….oh that’s a lot of the Catholic hierarchy.”

I’ve heard it’s a lot of non-priests too.

Fiachra, I think you are reading too much into William Grogan’s comments. They seemed more reactionary than that. Also – you seem to be agressing with Evlyn?? Pro-life but allowing abortions where the mother’s life is under threat?

The assumption that the mother would feel guilty is just that – an assumption. Selfish people exist, and some of them are women

im not saying matthew is right when he says anyone should not have an opinion, just that most pro lifers ive met are also religious and that they are becoming less numerous

sorry, i meant william

The only problem with a referendum is that it would bring all of the crazies out of the woodwork. This would put mothers seeking abortions and those that have under more pressure. I don’t think this law will pass but at least it puts it under the spot light

another problem with a referendum is that it would try to appease most if not all viewpoints; thereby the chances are that it would be so diluted that it would not appease or help anyone.

Couldn’t agree more. Allow both sides of the argument to present their cases to the public and let them make up their own minds.

How would the text of the referendum read? Would it just pertain to the removal of the right to life of the unborn from the constitution? What would it be replaced with, respect for the life of the unborn or completely removed? Will the referendum ask when should abortion be legal and in what circumstances?

I too would love to see a referendum, but before we are ready for a referendum, at the very least a commission on the issue needs to consider the issue before it is put to the people. In past abortion referenda, such as the 1983 one where right-wing pressure groups pressured the government into inserting legal rights for the unborn into the Constitution, or the hurries 1992 referendum in the wake of the highly emotive X-case, time was not allowed to consider the issue in an enlightened and rational way.

We’ve already had referendums on this. Why is it that the same people calling for another are often the same that decry the two votes on Nice and Lisbon?

@Chuck Farrelly Yes, 20 years ago. Public opinion changes and I welcome another referendum on this issue.

And if abortion on demand is ratified by the people, continual referendums every 20 years to see if they’ve changed their minds again? Or do we stop when you get your way? I think I know the answer

@Chuck Do you realise how a democracy works? It is not about getting what I want! I think it is quite obvious where I lie on this issue, however that is besides the point. Opinions change over time and thus I think it is only right that a referendum is called on this issue.
Let’s say the bill is passed tomorrow. I for one would have no problem revisiting it again in 20 years time if the public wish to do so. Nothing is set in stone Chuck. Peoples viewpoints change and the law of the land should reflect that.

In fairness it’s not just a female issue. I don’t see your point – a baby is a baby and whether it’s unborn or not, the right to decide whether it lives or dies is neither the choice of any man or any woman IMHO

The term you are looking for is zygote, not “baby” or “unborn”.

“I’m a man and will never have an abortion. Why should I get to decide what a woman does with her body?”

And if the woman was carrying your child would you feel you should have some kind of say? I’m not being nasty, I’m just genuinely curious as the “it’s a woman’s body and she should do with it what she likes” argument frustrates me as a reason for abortion. By the same logic nobody should intervene if they see a woman in the street dousing herself in petrol or a woman threatening to throw herself of a building.

The article relates to a Bill which is being presented before the Dáil tomorrow. Would you rather news outlets did not report on current events? There’s been quite a few articles in ‘The Journal’ lately about a number of broad-ranging issues that are topical. The great irony here is that you are a frequent commenter on abortion-related articles in ‘The Journal’, so it obviously interests you enough to express your viewpoint on the issue.

Same Bill as the article two days ago, yeah?

“There are so many reasons why a woman might not want to have a baby.”

And for every single one, there’s a form of contraception. And if you don’t trust it, there’s the morning after pill. How much choice does a person need?

What a thoughtless comment! A woman might choose to get pregnant, but medical complications may deem it necessary for her to have an abortion. Or she may not choose to get pregnant in the first place!

Karl Power’s comments clearly referred to abortion on demand as opposed to medical abortion which is totally different and really, not a much of a choice at all.

As for women who didn’t want to get pregnant, well my whole point was that there are more ways than ever to avoid that. If you think maybe the various method(s) used didn’t work – there’s the morning after pill.

Crime control by abortion. Like I said earlier; there are ALL shades of opinion

Read again, I said, I am not suggesting crime control through abortion. I was merely pointing that crime fell as a result of this.

Three of the most irrelevant and ignorant questions to this debate that I’ve seen so far.

Couldn’t agree more Adam.

Why are they your views? Is it because you think a foetus has a right to life? Well then, what’s the difference between ‘dictating’ that that right be upheld and dictating that murder, theft or fraud also be prohibited?

Stopping someone from needlessly interfering from someone else’s rights is NOT the same as just interfering with someone’s personal choice that affects no one else