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Dublin: 12 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Noonan: ‘We don’t know who audited Anglo in 2008′

Michael Noonan says IBRC can’t make out exactly who from Ernst & Young was responsible for auditing its 2008 accounts.

Image: Brian O'Leary/Photocall Ireland

FINANCE MINISTER Michael Noonan has revealed that staff at the former Anglo Irish Bank cannot identify the exact personnel responsible for auditing the bank in the financial year to September 2008.

Noonan said he had been informed that the bank – now rebranded as the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation – “is not in a position to positively identify all the principal persons” at auditing firm Ernst & Young “who were responsible for the conduct of the audit.”

Replying to Dáil questions from Sinn Féin finance spokesman Pearse Doherty, Noonan said the bank had told him it was “actively investigating all legacy issues with a view to taking appropriate action to resolve such issues”.

“Due to the sensitive nature of those issues, it would be inappropriate for the bank to comment further on the subject matter of the question at this time,” he said.

Anglo’s accounts for the 2008 financial year indicated an after-tax profit of €664 million – but were not published until February 2009, when the taxpayer had already injected €1.5 billion into the bank in exchange for a 75 per cent stake.

Statements attached to the accounts by auditors Ernst & Young certified that the bank’s financial statements gave “a true and fair view… of the state of affairs of the parent group as at 30 September 2008″.

Current NAMA chairman Frank Daly – who was appointed to Anglo’s board as a ‘public interest director’ in December 2008 when the bank was nationalised – was the chairman of the bank’s audit committee at the time the accounts were released.

‘Astonishing’

Doherty told TheJournal.ie it was “astonishing” that the auditors could not be individually identified for work “they were handsomely paid to do”.

“We all know now what the culture was within the finance sector then and while it’s not fast enough, there has been some change in the banks. There are even, finally, some people being held to account, although in a very limited way,” Doherty said.

Not so in the auditing firms. These firms are still in practice and presumably, the people who oversaw the audits, are still with them.

How is the public supposed to move on, believing that there is now transparency and honesty in the financial services, when not all those involved in bringing the sector into disrepute have been held to account, or more, forced to change their practices?

The Chartered Accountants Regulatory Board announced a year ago that it would undertake disciplinary hearings against Ernst & Young over apparent failings in the 2008 Anglo accounts.

Those failings included the auditors’ failure to detect the scale of Anglo’s loans to then-chairman Seán FitzPatrick, then-director Willie McAteer, and to Irish Life & Permanent – the latter being as part of a ‘warehousing’ arrangement designed to cast each institution’s balance sheet in a better light.

The CARB hearings have been adjourned, however, following a request from the Director of Public Prosecutions – who had expressed concern that a public hearing into any auditing shortcomings could prejudice a later criminal prosecution.

A spokeswoman for Ernst & Young said it would be inappropriate for her to comment on the circumstances of the Anglo audit while the CARB investigation was continuing.

“Apart from the ongoing CARB process itself, the firm is concerned to avoid saying anything which could prejudice the ongoing criminal investigations by the [Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement] and the Garda Síochána into possible ‘withholding of information from the auditors’,” the spokeswoman added.

Both the Department of Finance and IBRC itself declined to offer further comment.

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Comments (76 Comments)

  • sweet Jesus, they must be kidding.

    Reply
    • Not kidding, lying. An unwillingness to review the information, an unwillingness to talk to Anglo staff at the time who were involved in the auditing. A unwillingness to review emails and the paper trail.

      As always with FG and FF, Ireland and the taxpayer come a distant second to cronies and powerful friends.

      Reply
    • And these are the Schiesters that most people are relying on to bring them justice??

      I sure they’ll just make up some expensive, farcical spiel to blame the Quinns for it,
      and get some drones to swallow and circulate it for them,
      all on taxpayer dime.

      Reply
    • sorry typo

      I’m sure…..

      Reply
    • I met a well travelled young woman from Co Waterford recently on an Island in Thailand.
      In honour of Robert Emmet,I had ‘Oh breathe not his name-let it sleep in the shade,where cold and unhonoured his relics are laid; tattoed on my forearm.After exchanging pleasentries she enquired as to its origins and I informed her that it was written by Thomas Moore.She was unaware of him as was she unaware of Robert Emmet.I asked her had she heard the name Sean Fitzpatrick or Bertie Ahern,Brian Cowen .She replied to all three in the affirmative.I didnt feel proud of my heritage at that moment.

      Reply
    • ?.? 01/10/12 #

      It’s funny how they think so little of the Irish, knowing they’ll sit there and take it that they don’t even bother covering stuff up or make up any excuse, they care so little it’s gotten to ‘I don’t know’. Which I’m sure is followed by, what are u groin to do about it and I’m still gettin paid

      Reply
  • They can! Just check the emails going back and forth btw IBRC and E&Y!!! There is always some form of communication. This is madness

    Reply
    • But first they would have to actually have those emails to view! Doubt they’re still in existence somehow.

      Reply
    • Legally they HAVE to have the communications archived for retrieval for 7 years. It’s all there, just they don’t want to release it. Considering they “audit” companies they are well aware of their legal obligation.

      Reply
    • If IBRC were to sue E & Y then the audit files become evidence. Each individual who formed part of the audit team will be named in that file. They will also have initialled each worksheet they were responsible for and the engagement partner will have initialled each section he/she reviewed.
      The question is why have IBRC not commenced legal action against E & Y?

      Reply
    • well it just goes to show all the change we I ; voted for seems like im not going to get it. well Michael not Much difference between u Michael Martin and the rest.

      Reply
  • Nobody will be pulled up for this,heads should roll but as usuall this will just be swept under a carpet

    Reply
  • Sleeeeeeeeeeeeveeeeeeen Feckers.

    Reply
  • B Lowe 30/09/12 #

    Plain out lies. Complete rubbish.
    Does anyone for even one second believe that.

    Reply
    • No!
      Another exibit of the widespread culture of fobbing, rigging statistics, data cleansing, retrospctively altering records, tainting of audit trails, and concealment and tollerance of falure that has caused our decline and failure. Wait for the narrow and ambiguous scope of any investigation to what will be cast as legacy issues.

      Reply
    • You’re dead right, Noonan is telling huge porkies when he says it is not known who audited Anglo. It is known who audited them and it is known well in auditing circles in Dublin. The exact individual who lead the auditing team for the Anglo account was revealed by the Phoenix less than 2 weeks ago. To the best of my knowledge he hasn’t sued the Phoenix so it looks like they are right in their assertion of who it was.

      So if we now have the name of the auditor in Ernst & Young who audited Anglo then why doesn’t the Minister pick up the phone to him ?

      Reply
  • OU812 30/09/12 #

    If they can’t identify the individuals, then the directors of E&Y must be held personally responsible.

    Reply
    • This is about protecting E&Y. That is all it is, if the audit details come out, then it causes a whole lot of problems for that company, damages their reputation and make leave them liable for damages.

      The FG/FF gombeenarchy prefer to have the tax payer pick up the tab than golf buddies, business associates etc be held to account,.

      It’s the same Golden Circle Ireland B.S. that so blatantly defined the last Govt. and it still stinks.

      Reply
  • Of course they know! That’s ridiculous! If they won’t make it public knowledge that’s one thing – but to say they don’t know just sounds totally stupid.

    Reply
  • The auditors report in the financial statements would be signed by the auditor. I.e joe blogs on behalf if Ernest and young, I’d say asking whoever that person was might be a start..

    Reply
  • I wonder if the same auditors do the accounts at NAMA. There has been a mass exodus of top executives leave Nama recently because of Noonan’s interferance in their “decision making”. Ironically some of the ones that remained in their executive well paid posts were named in the investigation into money laundering at the HSBC bank and they have Noonan’s full support. The apple is rotten to the core and is spreading. Transparency, false accounting and money laundering go hand in hand with some people.

    Reply
  • IMO The Three monkeys carried out the audit and you guess it their names are “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil”

    Reply
  • A don’t know, don’t ask policy, like with bondholders.

    Reply
  • Earnest and young did it, just charge the directors of the company with the cover up.

    Reply
  • Seriously !! did you expect anything different from them. They have and continue to lie and decieve their way through their term.
    This is gombeen politics at it’s very best.
    (wonder how many red thumbs will come out in favour of them)

    Reply
  • Noonan doesn’t know anything about it. ,,,,Only when it suits him. More lies minister

    Reply
  • This is a ruse. Why would Anglo know who at E&Y was responsible for the audit? The question needs to be put to E&Y not Anglo. The people at E&Y know!

    Audit firms didn’t rock the boat at major clients for fear of losing lucrative gigs. Not enough been done in this area to bring accountability. No lessons learned from Enron.

    Reply
    • Hairy lemon. You say that not enough’s being done in regards to accountability. FFS nothing’s been done. If Noonan and his cronies really wanted to know what happened, they could find out tomorrow. They don’t want to have to be seen to come down heavy on friends and fellow criminals. Can you imagine a finance minister getting away with this kind of bullshit in the UK or France? Every time you think you’ve heard the biggest far fetched fairy tale, the brass necked liars invent something even more unbelievable.

      Reply
    • You’re right rodrigo. They dont want to dig too far into this as all of their own names will be brought up

      Reply
  • I hope that we’ve hired proper forensic criminal accountant experts from overseas to carry out this investigation and not some beat detectives who happened to take accounting in their leaving cert.
    When there is a coverup involving hundreds of millions, you must hire experts. Anything less is gross negligence as the defendants shred documents and delete servers.
    I would not be surprised though if it is the latter.

    Reply
    • When you say “we”, what do you mean?
      There is us, the peasants and there is them, the rulers.
      I’m sure I’m not only one who is getting completely sick and tired of the corruption in our government.
      Surely someone is going to crack soon and turn to violence because nothing else seems to have any effect.

      Reply
    • Can you cite an instance of corruption in the Government that you’d like to prosecute; if yes, please name the individual and the crime.

      It is ‘we’ as we are responsible for who we elect. The whole population cannot sit in the Dail.

      Reply
  • Nonsense! Of course they could be identified….get the fraud squad to seize all computer records.

    Reply
  • Real gangsters run the world, f**k what you believe. Telling it like it is, some soothing Sunday morning listening :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeE3-rOG7i4

    Reply
  • Michael Noonan would not be able to track an elephant in the snow he should be put in charge of cutting the bull rushes in the Shannon valley

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    • Wrong, there is nothing incompetent about Michael Noonan…he’s much worse than that…he’s a slippery weasel, who knows exactly who performed that audit. There’s a big difference between someone not being capable of and someone not willing to….and he’s definitely in the latter category…

      Reply
  • The identity of the particular individuals who performed the audit is largely irrelevant. Accountancy firms are partnerships where each partner is jointly and severely liable for the actions of the other. In relation to non-partner, the same firm would be vicariously liable for their actions. Thus, in practice all partners would be sued or prosecuted, as appropriate, and they can then fight amongst themselves at trial, if separately represented, as to who is individually liable.

    Reply
  • Is this a white wash or a cover up ?

    Reply
  • another cover up to protect the guilty.

    Reply
  • Meh 30/09/12 #

    If you’ve ever heard a mouthful of shite from a politician, this is it. He should resign for that nonsensical gaffe alone. Everyone who works in Ernst & Young know who the auditors were, stand around a watercooler for 5 minutes and you’ll find that out.
    E & Y must have some dirty on the FG lads for him to come out with that nonsense.
    ITS NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Reply
  • This is complete and utter tripe. Every audit is planned in detail and staff assigned according to their experience etc. E & Y would have an audit file with a list of who carried out what specif task in relation to the audit in 08. Also staff time sheet system would have the billable hours assigned to Anglo..The problem here is that there is no political will to get to the bottom of any of this.

    Reply
  • Time for another costly tribunal, more money for the boys!!!!!!!

    Reply
  • Isn’t is a bit irrelevant ? If E & Y signed off on the audit then they are legally responsible i.e their board of directors are . They should be sued and then watch how fast they come up with individual names of who carried out audit !!!!!

    Reply
  • This is more than shocking and the wall of silence around it particularly disturbing. The secrecy of NAMA, an auditing firm that doesn’t know who their auditors are and a mute finance minister . Still its hardly surprising – this carry on has been entrenched in Irish politics since the Charles Haughey years. With no transparency or accountability it’s poor democracy.

    Reply
  • Wouldn’t it be audit partner in E&Y who would ultimately sign off on the audit. LinkedIn might have the answer

    Reply
  • Of course the engagement partner (s) are known. The only reason for not naming them in my opinion would be that it would prejudice an investigation, why he won n’t say that rather than pretending they don n’t know is beyond me.

    Reply
    • The original engagement contract still exists and the Partners of that date would continue to hold responsibility unless they had stood down. In the event that all of them had left the organisation over time then the entire Partnership base would have personal responsibility as they derived continuing profits from the account.
      If negligence were to be proved it would include the firm in general and the Supervising Partner(s) in particular.

      Reply
  • It is time for a firing squad, these people are corrupt from top to bottom.

    Reply
  • Who sent the invoice for the work ?
    Who cashed the cheque ?
    Where are the Revenue ?
    Where are the Gardai ?

    Reply
  • I simply do not believe that the investigation cannot identify those responsible for the audit.It is just more lies from those in the sector protecting their asses again.Noonan is to inexperienced to deal with these guys.His record so far indicates a minister with a very poor grasp of the ins and outs of the problems concerning the banking sector and its intention to protect certain individuals from prosecution.He is simply not up to the task and is almost delusional as far as his understanding of decisions taken at meeting he has attended. It has to change…we need someone who can deal with these characters and who understands how this numbers game is played at home and abroad.

    Reply
  • Most accountancy practices only ever signed the audit with the firms name and never the supervising partner who of course is responsible to the partnership for the audit and its fees.
    The reason nobody wants to own up for this is simple. The biggest single consumer of accountancy services is the State and nobody wants past mistakes or oversights to get in the way of the most lucrative and securely paid work in the sector

    Reply
  • Lets have a Garda lineup. Should look like a scene from d movie “usual suspects”

    Reply
  • And guess who has been getting a nice bundle of fees from working for NAMA the last few years. That’s right folks-Ernest & Young.

    Reply
  • This is ridiculous. The bank was broke in 2008 . They should be in prison ! Auditors all doing work for NAMA now .

    Reply
  • Until these guys,stop moving within the inner circles of this system
    we`ll never really know….

    Reply
  • Where is CAB when all this is happening please?

    Reply
  • The usual bulls**t from these white collar criminals, ask no questions hear no lies should be their party slogan!!

    Reply
  • Perhaps they should write to E and Y and ask them ? Joined up thinking. Boycott and burn .ie

    Reply
  • C Hall 30/09/12 #

    Did they try checking the employee register? I often find that helps.

    Reply
  • It is amazing that so many ” ordinary ” Joe Soaps know what’s going on, and can see through the vale of bullshit that is thrown up as excuses, yet our Min for Finance and his Dept , the Financial Regulator ,and all the other bandits that are elevated to “experts” cant read the paper trail . Even E+Y don’t know who they sent ….joke of the year . They should have a line-up of all the E+Y staff ,and invite all the former Anglo bank staff in to point fingers at the guilty ones . Problem solved , no long costly inquiry . AS IF……no no , too simple , too many red faces…cant have that . the bullshit cover up must continue.

    Reply
  • They can’t identify them. Why???? because they don’t want to of course. The country is rotten to the core and while old folk are worrying whether or not they will get to keep their travel pass, Seanie gets free flights on Aer Lingus. It’s a great little country alright.

    Reply
  • Auditors the world over have been involved in the global financial system fraud, which has been reported over & over by people like Max Keiser, Terri Buhl & others. At the heart of every single “banking failure” there’s an auditor involved, who some how manages to walk away unscathed even when the audit practices involved are called into question.

    For example, PWC were fined £1.4m by the Accountancy and Actuarial Discipline Board for wrongly reporting to the Financial Services Authority that JPMSL had complied with client money rules which govern the segregation and protection of client funds. PWC called it an “honest mistake.” That was a cheap ‘cost of business’ for what happened.

    The sooner people wake up & realise the entire industry auditors & all are actively involved in perpetuating the global financial fraudsters & their activities, the sooner this issue can be addressed in a meaningful manner. These firms, their auditors & the ratings agencies have engaged in widescale fraud, misrepresentation & done so with almost complete immunity as their fines were issued without any need for admission of guilt & so small, they were points of a percent in terms of the profits made off the back of the actions being sanctioned.

    Free market capitalism is dead as the market is not allowed to act as a price discovery mechanism while regulators, auditors & those supposed to be at the wheel willingly left it, nevermind ‘fell asleep’.

    Reply
  • The wrong sean is in mountjoy. it should be Fitz and Eand Y.

    Reply
  • The wrong Sean is in mountjoy. it should be Sean and Eand Y.

    Reply
  • Sh***t,,, they couldn’t even be bothered to make up some half thought out excuse any more,, why is that, could it be that just don’t think the irish people could be bothered anymore, or that we are not listening,, or maybe they have just come to the same conclusion as most…..

    WTF are you going to do about it,,,

    history says sweet feck all………………………

    Reply

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