That really is an unfortunate situation.

@ Andrew. Thank you for the above. A very clearcut response, assuming accuracy of your information. May I ask, what is the reason for the high importance attributed to "normal diplomatic channels" and why was it so important to operate within these channels to receive info from the Vatican? Was it a fudge? Thank you again.

Game – Set and match !!!!

@ RP McMurphy: A copy & paste from the Murphy Commission Report -2.23. and 2.24.

I think the ‘normal diplomatic channels’ line is a deflection. On the Crimen Solicitationis document the Commission did not ask the Vatican or the Holy See for co-operation, it asked the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) – but the CDF ignored the Commission and the Vatican used it’s diplomatic muscle to avoid answering. That document only came to light because it was referenced in a footnote to a May 18, 2002, letter from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation, to the bishops of the world regarding new procedures for sex abuse cases. Needless to say that if CDF had co-operated with the Commission, Ratzinger might have been compromised.

The Papal Nuncio knew the Commission didn’t have the power to make the nuncio or the CDF to produce relevant and important documents so they acted accordingly.

In addition to the Nuncio stonewalling the original Murphy report, I believe that Kenny’s “three year” reference was to the Papal Nuncio’s refusal to cooperate with the Cloyne investigation, thus frustrating its efforts.
This time, the nuncio declined on the basis that he “does not determine the handling of cases of sexual abuse in Ireland and therefore is unable to assist you in this matter”.

However, this is quite disingenuous, since the report also found that “on 11 January 2009, Archbishop Clifford went to see the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Leanza. Archbishop Clifford told the Commission that he gave the Papal Nuncio a copy of the young man’s complaint as recorded by Fr Bermingham. The Nuncio advised him that he would forward the details of the complaint to the prefect of the Congregation for Bishops in Rome, Cardinal Re.”

Thus the Papal Nuncio, the Vatican’s highest representative in Ireland, was involved with reports of abuse, would (or should) have had records of that which would be of interest to the investigation, and refused under a false pretext to cooperate with it.
It’s not Kenny who has questions to answer here….

Totally agree, Mark. Enda Kenny should stand by his condemnation of the conduct of the clergy and their leaders. If they insist on "playing the innocent" he should threaten to have the church eliminated from our schools, even if it meant legislating for such a move. That’d put the wind up them. Time we stood up for the innocent lives ruined by so-called "men of God"

communist countries u referring too there , just want to know ur agenda . mr stalin

too right. Out. Out. Out.

Unfortunately he does. He made an allegation which cannot be proven – it’s slander. Worse, there was no NEED for him to resort to slander to blacken the Church’s name. He’s completely bungled this one.

Statements made in the Dail couldn’t be grounds for slander cases and likewise for defamation cases. So it’s not legally slander. As to whether it’s ethically slander, don’t be daft. They raped kids and then the rest of them covered it up. Slander requires that the ordinary person would feel your reputation was impuned by the statement and frankly, if you’re raping kids or protecting their rapists, there’s not much anyone can do to impune your reputation!

“Vatican mafia” looked em up on google ed, sorry couldn’t find what u were talking about. oh thats right u blogging about the usual , anti church comments. whos in charge of the country is Europe ed not enda kenny , just needed to point that out also , if u need an up date on the economy i be more than happy to oblige .
1-0 keyes

Ah keyese, wondered where you had taken yourself off too, been busy reading the Vatican reply to Enda have we? You don’t need to search google to see the similarities between the Vatican and the Mafia, just look at their structure but at least the Mafia have a code of honour!. As for Europe in charge, pure nonsense, Enda is very much in charge that’s what he was elected for to take charge after the shambles of the last bunch of cretinous incompetents. You’ll have to forgive me for not taking ‘up ur offr of an upd8 on da ecoonmy’, given you can barely write in English I don’t hold out much hope that you would be very enlightened when it comes to economics, come to think of it your not very enlightened in anything else either judging by your posts!

Archbishop Martin sides with Enda Kenny. He wants Enda to educate the public about the Vatican’s guilt. The archbishop has said that there is a cabal in the Vatican determined to confuse the issue and continue the cover-ups.

Of course silly me! The pedophiles well used trick of blaming the victim for what happened and then silencing them with threats before offering them remorse to make it sound like their sorry. Those pesky orphans and loose women, what’s a priest to do eh! Hope you’ve been on your knees today in front of your local priest Joe? Then again hope you haven’t!

@Joe Actually Joe your are closer to the ‘truth’ than you know. The Rosminians ‘managed’ two Industrial Schools – Upton & Ferryhouse and they wrote regular reports to Rome about their activities in Ireland. These report were sent three or four times a year. Some of the reports mentioned that their members were in danger of breaking the Sixth Commandment with the children … that the children were a danger to them! These parts of the reports were written in Latin.

From the Child Abuse Commission:
Clergy members were “indiscreet with boys” and had “sinned against the sixth commandment (thou shalt not commit adultery)”. A letter to Rome from Ireland in 1956 said one member had been “indiscreet cum pueres (with boys) and is in periculum (danger)”. Senior Counsel for the committee, Mr Noel McMahon, referred to a letter from 1948 where a member was described as “in admiratio” (enamoured) of boys.

And the kicker in this is that the Holy See itself had overall authority of this Religious Order AND the Irish Christian Brothers – who also sent regular reports to Rome and many of those reports also mentioned child abuse by their members. So there’s a few corridors in Rome with masses (no pun intended) of documents mentioning child abuse by Irish Religious Orders

Actually, quite a lot of parents are very happy to send their children to a Catholic school. It’s their choice as it should be a choice for those who want other options. The ball is in the government’s court. They’ve failed to provide schools for the differing requirements of modern Ireland.

Maria your blaming then goverment for not having religious schools and your suggestings parents are happy with the current setup.

The facts remain that you can try blame the goverment but the church has had alot of power in this country and that has put a stop to any plans to seperate school and religion.

Even now mr quinns very progressive work regarding seperating the two isn’t exactly speeding along due to the church.

As for parents being happy…..this is a lie and you know it well, parents have no choice affectively. While there may be some non religious schools it could mean 90 plus min journey time.

Given the numorous faiths now in Ireland and the fact that more and more people have no religion it is only right that religion be removed from schools

This leaves religion which is very much a personal thing down to the parents who’ve you’ve previously said are happy so I’m sure they will have no problem teaching whatever faith they follow.

Also there’s always mass and Sunday schools could also be setup too

I don’t think all parents are happy- quite a lot want another model and that choice should be available. I’m all in favour of choice in education.

This is the logical outcome of this battle: That any organisation or individual who doesn’t sign up or agree with the Children First Guidelines will not be allowed access to children. Hopefully when Children First becomes the law of the land they will be extended to all vulnerable communities in Ireland.

Eh…and will the parents of the kids have a say? There should be choice in education not a one-size-fits-all approach steered by those who don’t want any mention of religion at all. I’m totally into the study of world religions, but I hope children wouldn’t be taught that belief in God is just a fairy tale for deluded, blind fools. This is not the belief of most Irish people. To me, brainwashing would be an attempt to pretend that everyone is the exact same and has the exact same beliefs. I think it’s better to teach children to value diversity. Someone believing something different should not be perceived as a threat. Vive la difference!

@Maria Fair play to you for being into studying world religions – in which school in Ireland are you doing this studying?

Maria all state schools should be secular. We live in a Republic that means that the Church and state should be separated. This country is no longer a Vatican statelet. The option of religious education should remain an option within the Education system but if people chose to educate their children in a religious ethos then they should find a private school that will provide that sort of “education”.

Maria if you people want to believe in religion, be it christian or any other religion then do it on your own time, don’t expect the schools to do it for you, schools are for educating children in real subjects, the parents of children who want religious studies of a particular brand should do so in their churches, mosques or temples. Wasting school hours on preparing children for religious sacraments or other rituals is just sheer madness especially when they could be using that time to do maths and literacy two areas where Irish school children are falling behind in. I have no problem with children being thought about world religions and then allowed to make up their own minds on the subject, how they interpret the various beliefs of those religions is up to them. Let them make their own minds up. But remember when it comes to science, evolution is the reality and whatever creation myth you wish to follow is just that, a myth so “vive le difference” indeed. What you teach your kids in sunday school or in your own time is up to you but in school kids must be thought the facts and the truth about life that’s what education is about, that’s what real life is about!

I believe in evolution, Ed- I don’t think there’s any problem embracing science and religion. As I see it, all parents pay tax. There are varying opinions on what type of education they want for their children. Some would be happy with your model, some want denominational education and others would abhor any mention of religion at all. I believe that there shouldn’t be just one approach. What’s wrong with diversity? Choice is the key, imo.
By the way, I don’t believe that education is just about teaching facts and truth. I see the key role of education as facilitating children in a journey of exploration and discovery, and encouraging a love of learning.

Maria, the group being objected to have a track record of raping and abusing those entrusted to their care.

I don’t care what religion you are or want to be; allowing this specific group the right to operate schools and thereby be in a position where they supervise children, that is the real issue here. What effect their ideology has on the standard of the child’s education is not the point here.

block ur ears at 6 ok if u have a problem m8, thats ur problem solved

Child protection procedures should be in place and strictly observed in all places, including schools,where adults interact with children. Have you statistics that point to priests being more of a risk to children, Mark?. I haven’t seen any such statistics.

Just a handful of reports Maria, like the Murphy report and the Ryan report, which point out that priests who rape kids have been moved to other parishes instead of being handed over to the Gardai and DPP for prosecution, and that those who moved them covered up the abuses they carried out.
It’s not that being a priest made them paedophiles, it’s that the other priests (and their higher-ups) acted in concert to protect the rapists and move them around, thus enabling them to rape and abuse again. It’s the systematic institutional nature of this that means that the RCC itself should be taken out of the school system permanently.

or pray with them gavin , like ur mother did and her mother before , and hers before that , god bless u young gavin hoey . from the planet of the apes.

Life’s too short

Isn’t that what is says in the Vatican response- that Canon Law doesn’t stand in the way of cases being reported to the civil authorities?

Fair play to you

Or provide more choice in education, Pilib. Governments have failed to build schools to meet the demands of those who aren’t Catholic or who don’t want a Catholic education.

I see the point I was responding to has disappeared!

So, you’re a paedophile if you wear certain decorative clothes? I don’t think I’ve ever come across such an unusual suggestion. In fact, most paedophiles probably look just like you or me and can’t be picked out from a crowd.

Can you name any other Irish institution where the rape of children and it’s cover up was more widespread than that of the catholic church?

I believe the real point of contention/animosity was the covering up that followed the abuse. The institutionalised lying, avoidance and dishonesty. The lack of morality from an organisation that purports to be the guardian of morality. There is law and there is morality and when you try to use the law to avoid moral responsibility then you are by definition acting immorally.

Don’t be confused Kay – it’s an awful generational institution of men built in power and treasure on the back of an extraordinary man named Jesus Christ.
It has been a power craving, secular, self involved power hoard since the Nicene council. It exists to further itself. It may draw good men, but it appears to quite regularly draw the worst of men.

The Roman Catholic church is a political, despicable, self aggrandising work of men. In the second world war, in the inquisitions, in the treatment of the vulnerable in our island, it has never been anything else.

It is a pernicious institution – feeding off, and demanding mastery of, our own truest, inherent better impulses.
It disavows contraception, seeks to lash broader enlightenment society when it can, it devoutly protects its pedophiles, hoards its wealth, and demands fealty from its christian conscripts.

If I have a child I will be damned if that child will be baptised in the light of these grimy, aged, gimlet eyed old men.

Enough no? Our elected Taoiseach has now spoken on our behalf to the issue – and we are to the better for it. An Irish Taoiseach long pre-dates a roman pope and by God I know which one I trust.

Kay,Your points are the best I’ve seen here. I’m often quite surprised by the level of vitriol in some of the responses. I’m not surprised at the anger towards those who abused children, but the general level of anti- Catholicism is quite alarming at times. It’s strange, but when cases come to light which aren’t linked to a Catholic priest or bishop, the response is much more muted and the story fades from public interest very rapidly.

Kay, what other groups operating in Ireland today systematically, with a large organisation of men sworn to obey orders from their higher-ups in that organisation, covered up child abuse, protected the rapists and moved them from place to place, thus enabling them to abuse and rape with impunity for decades?

Nobody’s saying forget the other abusers; but the RCC is complicit in a monumentally evil series of acts spanning decades, and so far, nobody has dealt with them.

I seem to recall a member of a political party being questioned for loitering in an area of the phoenix park frequented by rent boys. although no charges were brought against him, he is a member of a government party and a sitting TD. Perhaps hounding the rent boys out would invoke unplesent memories for FG’s newest member who, on record, referred to “a few bastards” in the Gardaí for either breaking the story, or questioning him. I cannot recall which.

What is your point?

hold on a second , if enda kenny and his government are against the church laws and fighting against them , why do they attend a catholic church ceremony the they before they are sworn in to the dail ,?? why does he allow his family members have a catholic burial .?? eamon gilmore is an atheist and he attended the ceremony , they all just people pleasers , so ppl wake up , the state has no agenda against any one . banks , church, etc , they do nothing about anything ,so let it be the way it is. ppl moning is what makes this country sick .

Ha Ha