All the good nurses will get jobs elsewhere, in private or foreign hospitals. Leaving all the rubbish nurses to get the frontline jobs. Enjoy septicemia.

Graduates are asked to accept a two year decrease in wages in return for a permanent, pensionable job. Lots of other graduates would bite your hand off for the salary only, not to mention the security aspects. The salary they offer is a fair **starting wage** for a graduate if it leads to solid permanent employment with benefits.

Ireland is not the country it was five years ago. Their hands are tied with CPA, but then it’s the unions young nurses should be turning against as they cement CPA and prevent fair streamlining of services from happening. Mr Doran is preaching from the choir, having pulled the ladder up.

Mathew it won’t come to that some of the Very Good nurses we train here will stay some will go its a fact of life always has been in nursing. And nurses don’t give you septicaemia

Gastophrase its a two year fixed term contract not pensionable and no increments it’s good luck and thanks after two years.

Mathew, you’re almost right – good nurses will go, more will get burnt out from working in understaffed wards and leave – they will replaced temporarily by inexperienced nurses (who could be good if properly mentored) who will have not enough senior nurses to mentor them because theyve either emigrated or retired under another hair brained HSE scheme, and the rest will be (and are) agency nurses who are only there for a day or two and often dont have much experience in the specialty that ward concentrates on.
This is not the situation anybody needs.

@OP How do you know that? It seems that there’s a popular refrain in this country more commonplace than moaning about the weather or Maaaary Bleedin’ Hard’ney and it goes along the lines of “the HSE is full of lazy admin staff doing nothing all day”.

Do we have any statistic or evidence backing this up or is it complete hearsay?

Also, I think 22k for someone in their very early 20s just out of college is alright. Not great, just alright. Started on £14k myself in ’99 so allowing for inflation, recession and the euro changeover that seems reasonable enough.

Graduates aren’t being asked to take a pay decrease. They haven’t got the job yet. There being offered a job that pays X. If they don’t like it they can apply else where

People see nurses and they recognise the good work they do. Which is absolutely fair enough. But I do think we need to get past the barstool commentary and realise that the background staff everyone seems to hate on are fairly essential too.

A hospital’s pretty useless without power, an appointment system, computer network, patient files, food or water, no?

@Gastrophase There is no guarantee of these people receiving a position at the end of this 2 year contract. It isn’t permanent either. They will also be displacing people who are being paid the correct wage, so this is effectively just cheap labour.

How deluded is a snide comment like that – private hospitals do not equate to better hospitals – they cherry pick their caseload and procedures leaving the hardcore emergency and critical care to the public teaching hospitals, where strong unions ensure a better staff-patient ratio than many private hospitals and nursing homes in elderly care facilities. I’m community based but see what challenges my hospital colleagues face, and your insulting comment is totally unwarranted.

how much is Liam Doran and all the other so called great union leaders pay; what perks the also get?

They have to move PS staff around…nobody gets fired in the PS unless you blow up a building or something.
So they manufacture roles for people (I’m talking the CS here..not nurses) and pad out places with terribly poor ‘admin’ staff.
Just ask any decent PS worker and they will tell you countless stories of such employees who do nothing all day long.
And they get a ”1′ grade as they greatly exceeded expectations and collect their increment and move on…it’s madness.

Well said Pauline however you will be unable to get through to the ‘you should count yourself lucky’ brigade. Employment is a human right, not a stroke of luck and if you work the hours nurses do, get the degree and look after the sick on a daily basis then you should be paid very well. I really can’t see how anyone could argue otherwise

You may notice that the ones who say ‘you should count yourself lucky’ are young males who obviously have no experience whatsover of being in a hospital and a very poor understanding of what it is front line staff like nurses actually do to help them when they need it most.
They will learn.

Point 1) generally these staff are agency – hence paid more in some cases – gov at fault!
Point 2) completely agree salary should equal responsibility so reduction for other non essential state employees should be greater but wont happen because of Croke Pk agreement
Point 3) long hours – your not alone there I’m afraid but tell me how many hours per week should you work and how many are paid overtime?
Point 4) no argument there – you guys and gals do a great job and go through a lot, but that was your chosen career path and, dare I say it, you must have known what to expect when training for it.
Point 5) work through breaks – wouldn’t it be more sensible if the unions called instead for a ‘work to rule’ policy (serious situations aside) the gov ‘should’ then see the scale of the problem and ‘possibly’ open up more jobs?
Point 6) grateful to have a job – anyone making stupid or unhelpful comments like that should be ignored – I’m well aware that you folks are under appreciated but (at risk of backlash) are you really that under paid?

Look, the nature of the beast is that we all want more money and a better work/life balance but at some point we have to step back and say – the economy of my country is foooked – how can I play my part to fix it! Anyone who blames bankers is also deluded as it was us who went to get that loan that we couldn’t afford etc etc.
Our whole economy is based on greed – it really needs to change.

Pauline I agree with u 100% but you forgot to mention Prison Officers who work hours similar to the hard working nurses you have mentioned. But as I said I agree 100% with ur comments!!

Sean a lot of the nurses & midwives affected by the salary cuts had nothing to do with the economic downturn so u can’t tar everyone with the same brush there lad. They work mad hrs and and the pay doesnt reflect the workload or the stress that is created from working in the hospitals of our country. Despite u saying they chose the career path that’s besides the point, the wages 5-6 years ago was a lot better than it is now when a lot of the current staff began their careers. Why should they stop doing what they love or leave the country just because the gov are too tight to pay them the wages they deserve??

That’s exactly the point though Shane – it’s supply and demand! Just suppose the government were Ryanair for a second (ok bad example but any normal airline)
1) Do you think that there would be any universal agreement protecting current wages?
2) Do you think that there would be the same level of job security?
3) Would you not agree that a pilots job could be tough and full of long unsocial hours and pretty important to people’s lives?

Yet there are thousands of people who want to be pilots who would accept a job with any basic wage just to get onto the ladder and this is why businesses like Ryanair thrive.

The Government had, up until a few years ago, been the Aerlingus of employers, offering very generous salaries, perks and unrivalled job security. As Aerlingus found out, this is unsustainable and its only really now that the government is waking up to that same fact.

So, and I know it’s ruthless but, if you have 5000 freshly qualified nurses who are looking for work and you are currently paying twice as much for agency staff as you would pay any new recruits, why not cancel agency contracts, open up 1000 new positions and save money, give those same levels of job security and, after 2 years, standard rates of pay plus stop 1000 of our newest talented youngsters leaving the country.
Now you can’t turn around and say its not fair because that IS the nature of economics and the world we live in – supply and demand and the public service should not be exempt from this.

Coor, I don’t half go on a bit, sorry!

Sean, If we work over our hours, we don’t get paid at all, let alone get over time.. it’s just tough.
And no most of the kitchen staff etc are not agency, they have been working in the hospital for years.
And yes I do believe we are paid badly now, when you take out all the deductions the government make.
My neighbour works part time, gets social welfare, FIS, back to school allowance and communion allowance (I kid you not), I get nothing. She has more money coming into her house than I do.
There is no incentive in this country to work.
And as nurses, we have to continiously update our skills, and keep training. Yes it is the nature of the job.
This crap of people saying ‘nursing is a calling, you knew what you signed up for’. What utter crap. Becoming a Nun or a priest is a calling. Yes not everyone can do nursing, but that doesn’t mean we are saints, that ‘our calling’ will provide for our families, put a roof over our heads. We train damn hard, work long hours, and deserve a living from our hard work.
Shane, I am sorry, I did forget Prison officers. I have the uttmost respect for you guys.

Thanks the feeling is mutual.

it’s realligning wages with what the employer can afford to pay.

Here’s just oen point.
30% of salary is guideline for mortgage payments. nurses starting out are now buying houses much cheaper than nurses employed for the decade, its only right that wages are realligned.

It’s not just nurses, but all employees whose employers are making losses and borrowing money to pay wages need to be realligned with realistic wages

It’s insulting. Earning a degree to be paid minimum wage is not fair and it’s not smart. Educated people have a knack of knowing when they’re being screwed. We’ll be waving goodbye to all our nurses as they take better paid jobs in other countries and private healthcare facilities.

No Ted they are not training posts, they will be contracted for two years and receive no increments. They will however get premium pay at the usual rates. It is insulting but they may have no other option if they want a job. I qualified in ’93 and we got work for 6/9 months before we left for the uk/us/oz came back in ’97 and had a permanent post the following week it’s a 20yr cycle in nursing so it seems to me. They would be better off leaving if they can.

€22k seems completely appropriate as a starting salary. Lets be honest just cos you are a ‘graduate’ you are still just a nurse, let’s not over blow what a nurse is. If McDonalds set up a burger flipping degree would all their employees be entitled to bigger salaries? Exactly! Thank you.

It’s a trap!!

Think you need to get out more Simon if you consider a degree in flipping burgers in the same light as a nursing degree.

As mentioned by Cliodhna limited contract of 2 years no increments. Exploitation pure and simple. Hopefully the nursing unions will go to the courts / employment tribunal on this.

How many hours p.w will nurses be expected to work for this salary? €423 before deductions seems like a small wage for the amount of responsibility that goes with the job.

Simon, have you or any member of your family ever been in hospital? Have you or anyone close to you ever been seriously ill where these people had to attend to your EVERY need?
You wouldn’t make that statement if you truly knew what work these people do.

@ Simon Blake….. U cannot be serious. U must be trolling….. Either that or you fell and hit your head and didn’t get to a hospital on time.

Being caring is not an justification for earning better than average money. The Irish need to stop thinking everyone has to be really well off no matter what job they Have. A nurse is a nurse regardless if they have a degree ir not. Well if 22k is exploitation then I encourage them to go to countries where they can earn more.

€22k would probably be acceptable if it was nett pay.

Unfortunately it’s gross

@ Simon, “a nurse is a nurse whether they have a degree or not” what an idiotic statement. A nurse is NOT a nurse without a degree. Would you call someone from macdonalds to do your electrics? Or how about a doctor to do your household plumbing? Would you call a fireman to fix your car? Get the picture?? Foolish boy.

I’ve done the burger flipping and also am now a nurse seriously there is a big difference !! http://wp.me/p32Fo7-2 the age of the yellow pack nurse is now upon us, work harder with more patients for less. I don’t criticize what anyone else earns nor should you

Perhaps when he’s unwell it would be more advantageous for Simon to go to McDonald’s

Speaking as a person who has just got out of Beaumont hospital today and has nothing but good thoughts towards the nursing profession. I have a nasty graded malignant brain tumour that has just resulted in a second brain op in 12 months, I cannot except that nursing is all about money. Yes it helps. We would all like to pay nurses 100 k. A year. From what I witnessed over the last 12 months supports that……but given the fact these people enter collage knowing that once they qualify they have a choice of a few years in the agency merry ground and benefit from the positive and the negative effects of this or they move abroad for contact work and to gain experience., just like the choice I had when I left school in the early 80s, my options were go east to the uk or west to the us. Or stay and fight it out with the other unemployed for wash up jobs. To be told i was over qualified because I d a leaving cert..personally I would take the contract to guarantee two more years being mentored by some of the senior ward sisters that I have witnessed, who can only be described as brilliant. Two years down the road if this country ever faces up to the brainless admin side of our public sector and gets us back where we an get the nursing numbers back to international standards. IF I had a choice between a nurse who stayed in our system and worked and learnt from these wonderful sisters. I would employ them in a heart beet. Is not all abut money

Do one 12 hour shift on your own with 12 patients! I bet someone with your mindset would be in tears. I suppose you think nurses are like Mary poppins Give out a few pills and wind their patients and pat them on the head. You wouldn’t know one element to a nurses job without googling it.

Therein lies the main issue – if the PS unions accepted the state their company (Ireland PLC) is in they they would accept that cuts are needed on all existing staff – not just heaped unfairly on the lowest paid new entrants.
Massive savings could be made if the PS pay bill was cut but instead they laugh at us behind their beards that we keep accepting ‘Croke Park’ as some mythical saviour when in fact it is an exercise in smoke and mirrors.

completely agree
there is room to renegociate the croke park agreement but it means upsetting his cronies in the upper echelons of the PS who are on the gold plated pensions and perks.
Remember this is the guy who looked at 1100 public services allowences and cut 1, but yet he can come up with this plan.
my blood boils every time i see his face.
he is doing everything he can to drag his heels on the banking enquiry

Frank
Forgive me for being so unreasonable as to question you on the daily rants you make with complete anonymity and without any facts being allowed to get in the way of your usual ungracious digital belch. Could you, in the interest of fairness or honesty or decency define what you mean by the use of the word “cronies” in respect of Minister Howlin.
I think it’s about time that people like you are challenged to come up with some supportive evidence rather than the daily bile.

Michael/Paddy Rodgers
If it was anybody else I would dignify that with an explaination and an answer but it would go completely over your head so I’m not going to waste my breath

Frank
Again you weasel out of a reply while making a gratuitous insult on the way. What is it with you guys that truth and facts become so inconvenient for you..
Maybe I’ll ask you one for time for an answer Frank?

Michael
you said in a comment yesterday that your intellect lets you down
who am i to argue
you have the cheek to accuse me of complete anonymity when you yourself try to hide behind an anomyous name (and i use the word try) because everyone knows you are infact paddy rodgers, a guy who used to comment on hers a while back but was banned.
i dont debate with self obsessed people.
I have looked at your posts and its says something when for all the mouthing off you do that you have never made one stand alone comment on anything. all you do is make snide comments on other peoples posts, so this leads me to the conclusion that you really for all the bluster ,have nothing to say.

Frank
My apology for the delay in returning to your expected response and yet again it doesn’t disappoint. Oh Frank, yet again you avoid my question and merely go on a another rant while accusing me of being somebody else.
Let’s get back to the crux. I am now asking you for the third time as to what you mean by the use of the term “Howlins cronies” ?
It’s a very simple question Frank and it is extraordinary that you are going to such trouble in avoiding an answer. Is this your behaviour at a family level Frank. Is this the way you behave at work or in any social setting you may invade from time to time. Do you consider yourself a trustworthy and honest individual? Answer the miserable slander you offer Frank and stop slithering like a trail of slime.

no apologies needed michael/paddy rodgers
i will explain cronyism in two words michael
familiar words at that
‘James Reilly’
now do you want me to move on to stroke politics or have you had enough for one day?
i also would love to know why howlin has put every obsticle in the way of the banking enquiry?
maybe you can enlighten me

and for the record
i will stop my daily rants the day your government cronies stop lying to the electorate to get elected
so i wouldn’t hold my breath

hahah
your thumbs are working anyway
good man mick!

Frank
Hello…..so you’re not able to define your slander other than using the name of another Minister. Frank you’re sad!

sad but true, michael, sad but true
and anyway,
howlin,
banking enquiry?

Well said Frank. I agree with you 100 per cent.

PS pay bill has been considerable cut. Where have you been in the last few years.

How do you know there are too many managers or admin staff? This has become a popular refrain yet I’ve never heard any facts to back it up.

I’m not saying there is or there isn’t but I would like to see at least one objective report into it. Seems like this particular tidbit of wisdom was heard in the back of a taxi in 1996 and everyone’s taken it as a given since.

All kinds of staff are needed to keep a hospital running, you know.

Leartius
That’s a nice anonymous and totally unacceptable rant. I personally believe its a great starting salary to give you the clinical experience you really need after your degree course and to be paid twenty two thousand as well.
Your comments about the Minister for Health are the type of social media bullying that have been so damaging in Irish Society in recent times and it is completely unacceptable. If you’re a nurse which is more than a suspicion you didn’t get anywhere near enough clinical experience in the psychiatric field. Even if your from outside the field you need to consider the damage you may be causing.
Just wait to see how quickly the nurses accept the jobs!

Unfortunately Michael J you may be right and some nurses will accept it for personal reasons. But I hope those who have the choice and chance vote with their feet and travel.

And then they can role out two year contracts to all nurses. Then two year rolling contracts for garda, soldiers, firemen. It always amazing me how people think the public and private sector are exactly the same and can be operated in the same way.

seems right for a graduate wage, there’s plenty of engineers, lawyers, accontants etc all finshing college with Degrees and starting on 18K -23k.

Couldn’t agree more with you Brian. The swathe of unwashed civil servants, lazy and feckless who loiter here will disagree with you.

Who are you calling lazy Simon?

@Brian. Some engineers may find themselves working 7/24 shifts pretty sure not many lawyers, accountants etc., will be working those sort of hours.

Well said!!!

I think I’m going to puke. When you add in shift allowances that brings the wage u to 26k . Then you get the extra experience in this country. When nursing numbers increase the ones who stayed will get first crack at the permanent positions. What’s the option stay in agency area with no job security working in nursing homes and similar, if you don’t want an Irish job leave just like thousands of others did in the 80s and are currently. The last time the nurses kicked up about 10 years ago. I can remember the dispute outside galway hospital. Honk if you support us. After about week of doran spouting they lost the public and got abuse at the gates. Nurses have a special part in our healthcare system but all of the reports say that the medical profession in Ireland are too highly paid. I’ve looked up the salary scale and see what happens when you bide your time and get into the increment and grading system to overshoot the national average ind wage. It took me to stay in the country in from 1984 to the year 2011 for me to get near the aver int wage. Do the math that’s 28 years. So who’s kidding who that this is not about money.grow up before the people who still support nurses loose all patience with your attitude..

Ah! Mary come on now been offered 22k for 25+ years experience to-day for your years in the job has probably
more to do with other factors, for instance what would a male counterpart as compedent as you are earn.
Good luck looking for employment hope things work out for you in the jobs front

@Mary McCarthy You seem to be missing a very crucial point here. THESE ARE NOT NEW JOBS. These are existing jobs. They are issuing P45′s to people and then attempting to re-fill the roles with people on this new pay scale.

Irregardless of the fact that a job which requires such responsibility deserves to be paid accordingly, this is fundamentally immoral.

Beg to differ there Amy, these are new jobs for the public sector. The people who will make way for these new jobs are agency staff. You cannot class working for an agency as permanent employment. It would make sense in any business to employ new hires at a lesser rate than to pay agencies extortionate amounts for staff who can technically* do the same job.
Whilst I feel for those who will lose their work, it makes business sense. There could be a legal challenge though if the jobs aren’t offered to everyone equally. (I can’t see any seasoned nurse opting to take that big a drop in pay though.)
*technically – without the experience.

Sorry Sean,

They aren’t new jobs. They are posts which have not been assigned. And in response to you not being able to class agency/bank as permanent employment-you’re right, you can’t. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who have been given no other option than to have this as their soul source of income.

Two-tier system already happening in teaching I’m afraid. It’s part of bigger plan. They’re cutting new entrants in order to justify further cuts to existing teachers. New entrants to teaching are being cut through a lower basic salary and non payment of “allowances” with more cuts to follow. ASTI leadership made token protest but nothing of note. Standard fare from ASTI leadership.

Yes exactly Hugh. You are deluded if you think this spree state employees enjoy can continue. The party is over.

@Simon There was a party. Some benefited more than others. Nurses were not major beneficiaries. Ordinary public servants have noticed government spending cuts. 17% cut along with the same tax hikes and increased costs that everyone has had to endure. There is no spree when it comes to nurses. Same for teachers, paramedics, gardai, firefighters. A member of the society for the St Vincent de Paul said in an interview that a large and increasing number of their new clients come from low and middle ranking members of the aforementioned professions. That’s the reality facing a significant number of public servants.

Spree Simon ? Really ? I earn 13.00 as a qualified nurse per hour, I don’t go on holiday or buy clothes. Spree is an insult

Hugh. Think teachers are in a very similar situation. They do their collage, pass exams, then hawk themselves for a further time for their h dip. Only after all this hey can start applying for full tim teaching posts. I have members of my own family that are surviving on substitute scraps and suffer the attitude from the banks reading financial support to keep them going. They knew that this was the case when they decided to go down this road. They know it could take 5 to ten years before they get the plum job. Then they know that one the increment and grading system kicks in they have a well paid career. The nursing profession seem to want everything straight out of collage. It doesn’t work that way. Fine here are parts to nursing that re hard like the hygiene side of patient care. I’ve shared a room with men and woman who re bed bound and are wearing nappies. This s hard fr a nurse to deal with but also very degrading for the patient as well. A curtain gets pulled around them . Nurses need to remember this.

Lots of graduates do work for free to get their foot in the door of their industry, however. I earned a Diploma and a Degree in Journalism and it wasn’t until two years later that I had a full-time job, which involved me moving across the country and earning just above the minimum wage (my initial contract offer was a minimum wage salary). In the two years previous I written plenty for free to build up a portfolio and when I began my new job it wasn’t unusual for unpaid interns – many of whom were graduates – to work for a while with us.

Thankfully I’m no longer in that position but people have to be reasonable and understand that supply and demand and their employers budgets will dictate what will be offered to them. The country doesn’t owe people a career – especially when it’s broke and making harsh cuts – and if the pay of a guaranteed job is “insulting” to you then assess your options and do what’s right for your future. In my case that means that I no longer work in Ireland, which is a shame, but again, you have to be proactive about these things.

Because the country badly needs another journalist.

Clearly it doesn’t, as there’s an oversupply of journalism graduates and an abundance of unpaid internships and the likes. I acknowledged the reality of my situation, worked hard and eventually got a full-time role and moved on from there. In the case of public sector nursing roles, it doesn’t matter about the supply; it just matters what the country can afford and it cannot afford the 2009 salaries. And to all the people saying “they deserve more, they work hard”, I ask: “Don’t you work hard too?” Why are you advocating higher deductions on your own wage slip?

To be fair my initial comment was a bit flippant. Fair dues to you for being committed to your career choice and following it through. The country needs more good journalist though there are a few.
I presume your point is to do with taxation. It is a key point. People in this country seem to want better public services without paying more for them. Those on the right normally want low level of public services but low tax and those of the left usually advocate high levels of public services with associated higher taxation. Of course we want the best of both worlds. I for one would have no problem with more taxation if we got the services to match.

Problem is a lot of people were in the middle of collage when these changes were brought in. They had no idea their wages would be so low.

The issue is not about entitlement, it’s about what the job is worth. This is a way of exploiting desperate people. 12 hour shifts are no picnic, especially when people’s lives are your responsibility. I know I’d rather be taken care of by a well paid nurse who doesn’t have to cope with the additional stress of not being able to make ends meet.

And you Donncha need to be aware that we need nurses, and this deal is actively discouraging nurses. Its not all about the nurses wages – this is a bad solution which will not end up saving the money they say it will, and will not fix the very real staffing problems.

@Donnche if we all thought like that we world all be working for nothing, and shame on you for suggesting otherwise. Matt is right when he says that they are exploiting desperate people. The problem with this country is greed, and it effects every part of our lives.

Would they really? Other graduates would be glad that their industry is being “revamped”, to push out people on a fair wage, and introduce lower wages for the same work! Lets be honest, we all know nurses, guards etc never were over-paid! You hear about 35-45000 but this includes nights, weekends, unsocial hours! If ya want to pay people Mon-fri 9-5 wages, then only expect those hours to be worked !

Nano the street, engineers, lawyers, tradesmen were also in mid education and didn’t realise that there would be no jobs for them, your point is mute.

I’m a graduate and if I was offered a job in Ireland tomorrow in the same line of work as i do now, I would gladly take a pay cut so I could come home.

@Pat Power- Well it is different when they are replacing people who are being paid the correct wage.

Even if the wage they were offering meant it was not possible for you to support yourself or your family? I’m a nurse training to be a midwife and I know for sure that if I had to accept 22,000 for any job i would not be able to keep up my rent or my car. You either have A LOT of disposable income already or have been out o Ireland so long you’ve forgotten that while these wages drop and drop, the cost of living here has not!

I only have myself to look after so I could survive on it while still considered a graduate. I survived on less than half that paying rent and other bills while in college. It’s about 25% more than the minimum wage so i’m not quite sure what you realistically expect a graduate to earn?

James,

I suggest you look at the news or even read some of the above posts to gain insight as to why people are so angry with this because you seem to hnave missed the point wildly.

Not all graduates are the same. Not all jobs are the same. Not all situations are the same.

Do you think that terminating people’s employment and then attempting to fill their positions with people who are on significantly less money is moral or just? Can you honestly say that it is acceptable for a minister to lie about creating 1000 new jobs when this simply has not happened?

Do you actually care or are you just looking for an argument?

You, like most people, will at some point in your life understand the value and importance of what nurses and Midwives do. See how you feel about the 22,000 then.

They’ve already done their internship this is a job that they are qualified and registered to hold the same as those who already hold posts and are being paid 20% more are pensionable and permanent. If they qualified prior to 2012 they may not be eligible to apply for the jobs and may as a result not get work as these jobs are to stop outsourcing to agencies.

Nonsense, if the person working behind you is getting better results then they should.

Communism is a failed ideas.

Yes John, well said. Very well structured argument and thoughts.

@Amy…Nurses must be the only graduates with an en masse offer of employment upon leaving college in Ireland today.
everybody has to do their apprenticeship when starting out on their career and this might involve low pay for a few yrs while gaining experience…so in my opinion if nurses dont like the offer,then feel free to emigrate…most people in Ireland wont care…because too many at the moment are facing the prospect of losing their house,facing forced emigration for themselves or their children or losing their job in the private sector….Nurses are being badly represented by the unions this time…a job offer in Ireland is not a bad deal leaving college…

My god you don’t have a clue. Not all nurses have a job offer on graduation. With the recruitment embargo over the last few years none have got jobs. If you want to debate the issue get yourself correctly informed.

what do you work at Charlie?…what makes you feel so hard done by? what makes this subject so emotive for you?

Where I work seems irrelevant to me with regard to this debate but for the record have worked in both public and private sector and hate this public/private divide that is being pushed by the media and do many others. The public sector is not the same as the private sector and cannot be run the same way.
On your other points, I don’t think I’m being emotive and I certainly don’t feel hard done by. Far from it. I’m am absolutely sure we as a country can get out of the mess we are in but only through engaged honest effort including debate. But the cynicism, fingerpointing and demonisation of certain areas of society is only a pointless attempt at demonisation and will contribute nothing to the recovery of this country.

Apologies for using ‘demonisation’ twice… Nice word though…

and why cant the public sector be run like the private sector?….if you have worked in both the private and public sectors you should be well able to have a crack at answering this question??…

Because when it has been tried it had often been a disaster, American health care and British train system for example. I am not against learnings from the private sector being applied to the public sector but a blanket private sector business model applied to the provision of services us often problematic. Again the problem is the public/private ideological divide. Many people commenting seemed to be raving capitalist and if you suggest any other approach your portrayed as a union loving communist. As in all things the best path is often somewhere in the middle. By the by its murder finding the original comment to follow up on this site.

I agree the best path is probably somewhere in the middle…the problem is public sector workers are so far from the middle in their mindset ,that they are actually demonising themselves …its not the media or capitalists or private sector workers …its the fault of the unions who are badly led….unions who whip up a frenzy at the drop of a hat…unions who don’t have the best interests of the country or their members at heart….only their own vested interests….if they were any good at negotiating with a bit of give and take they wouldn’t have been given an ultimatum of 22k take it or leave it,by the government

But you see your doing it again… Putting all the blame on the union side. You have no idea what negotiations if any were involved with this process and neither do I for that matter. You continually argue from an inflexible pro- private sector ideology which is the very ideology which landed the country into the arms of the IMF. I am not writing off this proposed scheme but it has to be properly thought through and implemented well. But so many on here don’t debate the scheme and instead attack nurses, unions and the entire public sector which is a pointless divisive exercise.

John Paul,

The HSE is a crumbling joke that is literally buckling under the pressure. Nurses and patients are frequently the punchline.

Ireland has one of the highest patient to nurse ratios in the developed world and people are working in highly pressurised environments, going above and beyond their call of duty in order to provide care to people.

So please, PLEASE, do not tell me that these new graduates are lucky to have a job. The HSE is lucky to have them.

Would you though Joanne at 20% less I think not you’d fight too for the 100% pay like any of us would.
I too had to leave Ireland after qualifying to get work in the NHS I personally found my skills improved I was mentored and developed in ways my classmates that remained in Ireland didn’t I came back to Ireland a more confident competent nurse.
Ever think you may be the one at fault not the NHS.

Well I feel that it’s been a worthwhile move Iv been in London for 3 years and I’m in no rush home.
I’m just saying that there has been plenty of graduate nurses in recent years that would have jumped at the opportunity of a job in Ireland and not have to leave the country in search of work. I probably started on the same salary when I first qualified and often worked 10 days in a row. I’m not doubting that nursing don’t deserve more I am one and of course I feel we don’t get paid enough for the job we do but then again we are not in nursing to make millions, but we all have to start somewhere and having a two year contract post qualification is a good opportunity.

Joanne,

I graduated the same year as you. Do you understand that they are basically offering these graduates over 11,000 less than you and I would have gotten?

Yeah well… you’re from Westmeath.

Poor you Westmeath when you are lying on a trolley in A+E for days on end because all the beds are closed from understaffing

You twonk! They will only be understaffed if they have to pay them more, not less! Nice own goal.

Simon, you obviously have no idea what nurses do or the conditions they work under.
Understaffing has been brought about by a recruitment freeze ( another stupid idea that saved them no money) and retirement schemes. You get a domino effect on a ward when too many people leave, the rest leave too because they are doing 2-3 + nurses jobs, and so it goes.

I agree Dave, the recruitment freeze was a disaster, my sister works in an overstretched ward and is exhausted after each shift. My husband qualified just before this freeze came into effect and due to family commitments was unable to go abroad to get work, and since he hasn’t been able to work as a nurse for over two years his degree is now obsolete, the money wasted on his training in addition to the amount he received on social welfare made no sense what-so-ever, where was the savings?

You too Shane. Excellent point. Play the race card as well. Everyone is against you if you’re Irish.

Are you f-ing serious? I’m so glad modern Ireland has moved on from the stereotype…..