The next government will repeal property tax and water charges. Unless brainwashed bucketheads continue to vote for Fine Gael blueshirts.

The next goverment will be led by FG again…Or maybe like all the polls on journal.ie you seem to think we are going to have this socialist wave and SF will roll into power… dream on..

For the 500 millionth time, there is a budget shortfall EVEN WHEN YOU REMOVE THE DEBT BURDEN.

Water costs a lot of money to collect, purify and deliver. Due to the fact that it is currently free people tend to be more wasteful, impacting the problem. A small tax will encourage more responsible use.

A property tax, calculated and executed properly, is a progressive way to make people who can afford bigger homes pay more tax.

Yes, it is not fun when you have to pay tax, but we really have no alternative. Chanting slogans is not actually a solution to an economic problem.

Neither is pilfering billions of euro of our money to hand to bondholders cliff.

@Rob Just like Fianna Fail promised to abolish rates, car tax etc in 1977. Look where that got us. Parties promising populist tax cuts will be viewed very suspiciously by the sensible majority.

You’re missing my point Too- they are separate issues yet you seem intent on taking them as a whole.

1) We are paying back ludicrous amounts to unsecured bondholders.

2) We have a budget deficit.

We all have a right to be angry about the first part, but we have to address the second which it seems you are singularly focused on ignoring. The taxes focus on fixing that issue.
I am not party affiliated but a decade of tax cuts from FF as well as the infamous abolishment of rates has warped out perception on the issue.

Or, as a great man once suggested, we could hide under a pile of coats and hope that everything works out.

The point is cliff, the government cannot on one hand claim they need the revenue from the household charge and on the other hand needlessly hand out the equivalent of 5 years worth of the charge revenue last month alone to unguaranteed unsecured bondholders.

We’re being screwed. You’re being screwed. Get back to us when your party stop throwing billions at unguaranteed bondholders and put it towards closing the defecit. THEN you can talk with some credibility about the shortfall.

Step 1) Slogans
Step 2) ???
Step 3) Balanced budget.

Makes sense.

Step 1) Stop handing over billions of our money to unguaranteed unsecured bondholders. Separate banking debt from the sovereign.

Step 2) Put the money saved towards closing the shortfall you keep mentioning

Step 3) Return to the markets to borrow the difference at a reasonable rate as you no longer carry the banking debt overhang.

Makes more sense.

I’m not so sure that it does. Your plan is to burn the bondholders and then borrow the balance to cover the running costs of the country.

Do you know what a bondholder is? (Hint: They’re the people who lend money) Your plan is to refuse to pay them and then expect them to lend you more.

I’d have stuck with my version.

Well done cliff, that the full set of fine gael manufactured talking points you’ve regurgitated now.

The rate at which Ireland borrows money is calculated on the likelihood of us being able to pay it back, not whether or not we made high risk gamblers accept their losses.

Are you contesting that doing what the markets expect i.e. following the rules of capitalism and burning bondholders who made bad high risk gambles, will affect us negatively?

You’d nearly feel sorry for Fine Gael Too Trueleft. Things don’t seem to be going very well for them. They certainly picked a sh!te year to be bringing in Water Charges. Shure some eegits might say it’s falling from the sky in bucketfuls.

I’m not paying Water Charges either. This is a typically sly way of the Irish Tory government to privatise water along with anything else they can get their capitalist greedy paws on. What do you think a private company will charge for water? They will care even less about the struggling middle class or the poor in Ireland than Fine Gael. And that’s saying something…

Fine gael donor and photo op friend of the taoiseach Denis O’Brien has a bid in for the water meter installation gravy train tender.. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

Yes. I heard Enda Kenny’s “let’s ring the bell” buddy Denis O’Brien also has a tender in for the Water Meters. I read that his company had actually got the tender but then it went all quiet. Funny that with him controlling Independent Newspapers. “Independent” my ass!

Actually they’re objective, verifiable facts that anyone with any sort of grasp of economic or fiscal policy understands.

Too, as the great Barney Frank put it, trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it.

Good man cliff, nice to see you channeling the words of a politician who isn’t a member of fine gael for a change!

You reckon trueleft… election in the morning and FG would still get the largest number of seats in the house by far…. So in the eyes of many, they are doing a decent job it seems…

Nice set of crystal balls you got there declan….

Oh he’s a hungry little hyprocrite is Dear leader…

Emer, the figure 39% may be correct re actual houses but that figure is not indicative of actual households that have paid. @NamaWineLake did a report a few weeks ago stating that that figure included multiple property owners. The figure of non-payers of this unjust tax is closer to 52%. The government raised €90,000 from just 3 people. Add to this people who registered but are exempt and the many other multiple property landlord properties and 39% isn’t really an accurate figure.

Resist the bullying. If you receive a letter from the Council ignore it and join your local nohouseholdtax branch.

Protest re nohouseholdtax this Wednesday. Assembling at Central Bank Plaza at 5pm. Join us after work. We’ll be heading to the Dáil around 5.30 or so. Let’s give our TDs a nice send off before they start their summer holidays. ;)

Up to 52% of ALL households have NOT paid the hhc .

Collapse this government and replace it with what exactly? Be careful what you wish for.

The following are the alternative governments at this point in time.

Fine Gael / Fianna Fáil
Labour / Sinn Féin
Sinn Féin / Fianna Fáil
Fine Gael / Independents
Fine Gael overall majority

The present government is far from perfect, but it’s the best we’ve got!

Up to 52% of all Households have NOT paid or registered for the hhc …

David’
Just for once could you give a run down of all the positives about this Government instead of the careful what you wish for crapology. Seems to be a hangover from the fiscal compact referendum.
Tell people why to support the Gov instead of why not to support alternatives.
Should keep ya busy for a while.

Oh believe me, I’ve tried time and time again on this site to explain why I think this government is doing a good job but as always it falls on deaf ears.

But in the end politics is about choosing between those that put themselves forward for election. And out of those parties that do stand for election I know which ones I prefer.

“The Present government is far from perfect”! What are you talking about David Higgins? Those pesky socialists don’t seem to be causing Fine Gael much of a problem. I wish to goodness they’d hurry up and join the Fine Gael party. Looking at the arrogance of Gilmore and Rabbitte it’s obvious they’d be at home pulling on the “blue” jersey. Thanks for the laugh though David. You’re always good for one :D

Member of party in government thinks government is doing a swell job.

Jaysus, didn’t see that one coming….

@ Thanks Micheal

The household charge is only for this year. While it is clumsy both in terms of introduction and execution it won’t be cancelled. The details of the property tax have yet to be announced. Jumping the gun I think.

Given this governments actions so far reg i.e. aiming the pain at the unwashed mases while leaving the wealthy laughing all the way to the bank, do you HONESTLY think the property tax will be fair and progressive??

Whoever wins the next election, a property tax will likely be dumped period. They need to introduce a third band of income tax on the rich and anyone earning above €90,000 a year.

I remain hopefull Too! I doubt it will be perfect and it will have to start fairly low. We’ll have to wait and see.

Good point, TooTrueLeft. Reg sounds like a shill for the bondholders.

@Tim No it won’t be dumped. Reformed or changed maybe but it won’t be dropped. An annual charge is a reform it itself as high stamp duty rates are far more unfair.

@Petr In favour of property tax reform does not make me a shill for bond holders.

Reg it sounds to me like you can afford it. What about the 40% of Irish households that only have €100 left after essential bills every month? How are they going to afford Household and Water Taxes when they rise to well over €100 a month?

Lets be completely honest reg. If you’re in favour of a property tax, you are in favour of paying twice for the same services.

Ireland already has massive difficulties attracting the skilled labour we need for our multinationals. Our marginal tax rates are already above 50%. Creating a third tax band above €90k does nothing to help our skills shortage. It only acts as a disincentive to work. It’s a tax on jobs.

David, did you read the report about the high earners being better off despite our crippling austerity? Should th burden not be shared more fairly? Your party is widening the gap between rich and poor in our society.

Oh and marginal tax rates mean nothing. Millionaires in Ireland pay on average an effective tax rate of around 35%. If they were paying 50% we would be able to ensure more kids don’t go to bed hungry.

But sure fine gaels donors won’t like that come next election, will they?

No Too. I belive that tax has to be reliant on multiple sources. We’ve had a form of property tax (hight stamp duty rates) that were very unfair. Multiple sources of taxation that include a property tax are the norm in the majority of developed countries. Now may not be the ideal time to make these chnges. If Fianna Fail had done so when they reduced income taxes it may have been more acceptable.

Reg, we are not other countries. The services that they pay for through a household tax, we pay for through direct and indirect taxation. Even the IMF know this and suggested that the tax be brought in in a revenue neutral manner. The tax is to plug the hole left by fine geal pilfering the tax take to cover bankers gambling losses i.e. we are paying twice for the same services.

Too I thought I was going to be able to have a semi sensible debate with you regarding property tax reform. Obviously I won’t be able to!

↑

Shill.

For the record…Ireland has one of the most progressive tax systems in the world…So to be honest your comment is complete rubbish trueleft..

Another in a long line of soundbites you can’t back up declan??

Do your research trueleft…You will find its correct…

It’s not my job to prove your soundbite statements declan, it’s yours.

Whenever you’re ready. I’m sure you’ll find something on fine gaels website.

Hey Declan
Can you post a link to back up your comments on our great tax system ,Please ?
I would be interested to know if you include all the double taxation and stealth taxes in your idea of a great tax system .

@ Tim … Where is the Protest .. Have you more details?

@ Ronan

5pm at Central Bank Dame Street. March to the Dail.

Think i will go protest against the protest…. maybe i will bring the law abiding majority with me..

Declan Cotter,

Say that to their face – not behind a computer.

Rob…I have no issue saying it straight to your face or any of the others for that matter…but your right…I saw first hand the behaviour of the ‘protestors’ in Galway when the Labour convention was on…
I see the posters all over referring to the Minister as a bully….Thruth is the only sad pathetic bullies i see are the ones trying to ram this lost coase down everyones throat..

Declan- So you WILL be getting a group to counter protest on the 18th? The ‘majority’ that you speak for? Will you be bringing a big sign? Will it say ‘we love this government’? I look forward to seeing it. People are meeting around 5. Will you be there around then, or 15 mins later to get the dramatic entrance? You could all wear blue suits!

leave out the blueshirt stuff..its getting boring….. This site is getting less and less relevant each day…

Declan. It’s fairly obvious that you were probably on duty at the Galway protest. Either as a pepper-spray wielding security member employed by Labour Party or as a member of An Garda Síochána. Just remember your oath. I’ll post it for you below. Heed the “equal respect to all people”. You seem to have a bit of a problem with that! And I’m not a Garda basher, my Dad was a member. I quite like the uniform too – Freud do your worst! I was out with my friends lately, three of whom are married to Gardaí. None of them have paid the Household Tax. Are they criminals too?

“I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,
-while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and
-I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”

Reada- did you not hear him earlier? He said he was going to lead the ‘majority’ in a counter protest on the 18th. He likes to claim people on this are full of steam, so let him do it. Get them all out with you Declan! Should be an interesting day out. Put your bravado where your gob is…

Not a copper i am afraid… But i was in that area on that day and you crowd were a complete disgrace.. What i saw was the police acting with respect while they were abused and attacked by thugs…
I love the way you guys gang up like it gives you some kind of influence or strength..
It does not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So insult away…

Declan I wasn’t insulting you. If you read back most of the insults came from you. I’m surprised that you take my thinking you’re a member of the Garda Síochána as an insult. And btw re you not being a member…yeah right ;)

Another essay!!!! well for some to have the time….
Why do you go do something proper rather than hanging around websites writing thousands and thousands of worthless words..

I’ll always make time Declan, Always! It probably takes you a while to type up a few sentences, but on a smart phone it is only a few minutes. The Journal has not started limiting us to few words yet, but if it does you will be sorted.

Good man Kenneth…TBH…Nobody cares..

The journal.ie is just not that relevant… the articles are devisive often poorly written and do get me started on the polls…So far from reality it says it all really… If we ran a poll on here in the morning asking who would you vote for in next election then SF would probally get 50%…in the real world they will get more like 15%…
But if it makes you happy knock yourself out… I just wont be reading them..

Declan- very few people comment as much as you, so pretending you don’t care and this is ‘irrelevant’ wont wash with anyone. Your actions on this thread tell us all the real truth.

Dont you dare judge me Kenneth…I could speak frankly and say what i think about the vast majority of armchair critics that infest this site but ill bite my lip…..my comments are short in no way as frequent as yours or trueleft or any of the other fulltime commentators…

Declan is always good for a laugh.

Declan- You are in denial. It’s understandable, given how frequently you comment on threads. You ARE a full-time contributor Declan, regardless of how many times you click your heels and wish it wasn’t so…
And I know nothing about you, and have no interest whatsoever in your life, so I have no intention of judging you. I do not know, or care, if you are a Garda, as others suggest. I just find your contributions amusing, particularly given how many their are, and on a daily basis aswell! Are you not working Declan? You are quick to point out others regular contributions, but you have failed to notice how prolific your comments are, particularly given the fact you believe this site is ‘irrelevant’? If you are working, they must be paying you for doing nothing, as you have said to others. You are ALWAYS on this website, Declan. It’s quite entertaining to see you denying this reality so much. Thanks for the giggle.

There seem to be a fair few IT roles that are being advertised continuously.

Do you know any sharepoint team leaders?

Eileen in the High Tech sectors foreign investors find it impossible to source the numbers of qualified people they need to run their operations here. In such a situation the State has no choice but to approve work visas as a part of attracting them here. The dole queues don’t really help here.

Look to our educated emigrants . Give them a reason to stay and give them more than minimum wage. Also , retrain people !

Andy- it’s sad that the banks, which you now own, will not lend to you. The governments hands are tied and will not help you, but not when it comes to paying the banks debts, it seems. Its a joke that we are allowing this situation go on. Maybe if you Knew Denis O’Brien he could help? He could meet you at one of the FG fundraisers and put in a word for you with Enda and the boys? :) They love to help, as long as you are not selling Feta Cheese. Jesus, Michael Noonan hates that bloody cheese!

Amen Brother.

Michael that was last week!

Considering its Michael collins he probably meant July 8th 1914.

You can try explaing why the transactional based property tax system needed to be reformed. You’ll be accused of being a rampent Fine Gaeler! Good luck with it!

You wouldn’t have a vested interest would you ?

I clicked like to your comment. We will both be torn apart by the wolves!

I hammer back and they don’t like it. I think it is important for our voices to be heard to counter the ill informed, indignant rants of the mob. They would have you believe their is consensus on this issue and that tax evasion is something to be proud of.
I would rank tax evaders as equal to petty criminals and a step below sex offenders

God you are a tool Irish Renters – your comments are disgraceful.

We are being forced to pay a tax that our glorious leader is quoted saying it is unjust. We are being forced to pay a tax that is unfair with a 2-bed semi-d paying the same as a 25 bedroom mansion. We are being forced to pay a tax that was designed by politicians that one the one hand are saying “we need these taxes to pay for vital services” while on the other hand they are taking world beating salaries, perks and pensions. We are being forced to pay a tax that is once again hitting Joe Public for every red cent while the civil service is completely inefficient, overpaid (at the top) and self-serving.

I’ve had enough and will be joining the Anti-tax march on Wednesday.

These muppets are going to have their protest march on Wednesday wasting Garda time and costing this state,that they profess to care about, money we cannot afford.

Please don’t insult me.

Yes the household tax is unfair in the manner you suggested but it is being replaced by a proper progressive property tax. It is also only e100 so quit your social justice whine.

Politicians have every right to change their opinion especially after 20 years.

You are nothing but sheep. Lets do whatever the Government says. Baa Baa.

I can afford the household charge but refuse to pay it on the grounds I have mentioned above. You lot that did pay are exactly what is wrong with this country at the moment – sit on your hands and do nothing as long as I’m all right Jack mentality. The Government know this and that’s why they are getting away with so much and will continue to do so. The only way they will listen is if the public protest and that’s exactly what I’m going to do on Wednesday.

I always think for myself. That is why I rent and that is why I won’t be paying the household charge.. ;-)

Actually it’s a really solid source of additional income for 2013 since the Croke Park Agreement lasts until the following year. I think we will see the average being around three hundred for a three bedroomed semi and five hundred for a three bedroomed bungalow. Due to the so called defaulters spoiling the generation of a proper database they will simply levy those sums on all except the unemployed and make provision for another couple of relatively minor categories. The charges for those refusing to pay will increase to serious level penalties. This is my prophecy for the day!

Irish renters- you said people who didn’t pay this tax were a step above sex offenders, so that speaks volumes about your outlook. Also, for many this 100 euro is too much. It may be a social whine in your opinion, but to others it is too much. Maybe if you got down from your ivory tower you would have a bit of empathy, and come across like less of a troll.

I meant that sex offenders would be below them in terms of decent people, sorry for the confusion.

It’s called having a smart phone, on a break, working different shifts, some people started work at 6am and are on there lunch now. 9-5 is not the norm anymore. Still confused?

not all jobs are 9-5…I’m working today but I’m not in until 12.30…

not all jobs are 9-5…I’m working today but I’m not in until 12.30…

Great point Mick… Some of the comments are more like a thesis in fact… I really wonder how the employers of those people think its acceptable..

Why don’t you speak on the employers behalf declan? On this thread alone so far you have undertaken to speak on behalf of the voting public (“election in the morning and FG would still get the largest number of seats in the house by far”), and on behalf of the ‘law abiding majority’, so you may as well speak for the employers too

Hey Declan
How about yourself ? are you working to posting so many comments , your own emploter may not like it either ! Oh wait , maybe this IS your job ?

Think you will find my comments are not that frequent and are also short… Most of you guys live on here…post comment after comment and some people write complete essays…. its pathetic…
Write away…but you guys have not got the bottle to change anything..

I have never given the two fingers to any one who has paid this unjust unfair immoral tax, However I( have been subjected to insults and condemnation for standing up and saying just how unfair this tax is to the ordinary decent people of this country . I am one of those people , I refuse to be bullied or brow beaten by Government faceless thugs, like the ones that swarm these threads on occasions . We are the majority .We will NOT be beaten ,I challenge any one of you to try it .Ordinary decent people paid the hhc through fear ,and intimidationonly in the final week prior to March 31st.
Bring it on you shower of bullies .

You are actually in the minority and you are not an ordinary, decent person. Decent people pay their taxes not matter how much it galls.

Keep drinking the kool aid Renters.