If Quinn wants a review he might look into why non-fee paying schools are increasingly underperforming.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2011/0920/1224304403174.html

The deterioration of education in Ireland.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/The-myth-of-Irelands-high-ranking-education-system-smashed-111654754.html

Agreed. The standard of education has declined. The teenagers & 20somethings haven’t a clue how to spell. “There” & “Their”, “Weather” & “Whether” are confused as an example & spelling peoples names has gone out the window & the other day in HMV, I overheard a young one discuss a DVD with her pal saying “I seen that” instead of “I saw that”. It can’t be all the students fault. Teachers & parents have to share the blame, too. Paying for education is something no one should complain about & is it a case that many teachers are plain uneducated & dumb themselves ? Regarding this thread – the public purse should not pay anything to private schools.

@declancarroll ‘is it a case that many teachers are plain uneducated & dumb themselves’ what an incomprehensibly dismissive statement to make about a whole profession. Remove the chip from your shoulder, it might help you see straight. And by the way, your post contains ten punctuation and/or spelling errors (possibly more I quit at ten, maybe cuz i dum)

I’m certainly not painting all teachers the same, Fintan. No offence was meant to any teacher out there reading this thread. Something is going wrong somewhere & that needs to be looked at. That is my point & I am certainly not dismissive of a whole profession & I most certainly do not have any chip on my shoulder. If you are a teacher, my point must have hit a nerve. When I was in primary school, we had a teacher all parents gave out about. He spent a lot of his time having cigarettes in the hallway & the grades his students got were not good. The fact is there are some teachers who are not up to scratch & that needs to be looked whether it’s the private or public purse that pays the cheques.

This is what drives us all barmy. ‘When I was in Primary School’: if you’re, lets say 25-40 years old, that means anything between 20 and 35 years ago. How much change do you think has occured in that time in education? How many people spend their that length of time complaining about a lawyer, a garda, or even a doctor? Education now is unrecognisable from the last century, I’ve been teaching for 18 years and I can say what I personally taught when I began is nothing like what I teach now, never mind what I experienced in school. Technology, course changes, funding cuts, students with English as a second language, not to mention a proper inspectorate to please are, off the top of my head some things my teachers, or indeed I had no experience of ‘back then’. Call to a school, see the work being done under very difficult circumstance, for relatively little reward, economic or social I might add, and you will be careful before dismissing the profession again.

No point in trying to debate with u. U seem to be too sensitive about criticism. We’ll agree to disagree. Have a nice day ( which I mean in a friendly manner & not in a “dismissive” way ).

A debate would have meant answering a simple question about when you were in primary school. I know what I’m taking about, the sensitivity comes from being tarred with a brush from 30 years ago!

I totally agree. Taxpayers funds being used for elitest schooling is sick. My niece is in a National School in rural North Cork. Its a great school, brilliant teachers, however, teacher shortage numbers and the moratorium means she is in a classroom with a teacher teaching 2 classes (1st and 2nd)…have a guess how many children in the classroom with that one teacher???? 58!!!!! Yes 58!!!!! yet €100m is still spent on private schools? Beggars Belief!!!

Well said Alex. If parents want a private education let them pay for it. In reality private schools just employ Dept of Ed rejects. Sorry but true!

I want to a private school. My family are anything but elite

*went, bloody iPhone predictive text

People are forgetting this information. If the state stops paying teachers to teach in the private schools, the teachers will lose their jobs. The fact is having private schools saves the country alot of money which people don’t realise. Private schools does not mean elite at all. How it saves money? If the state pays a certain amount to the private schools, it keeps the schools up and running and keeps the teachers in jobs. The other option is let the whole institution of this private school to become a complete state school which means it will cost the state way more money. So, this amount is actually cheaper this way and preventing the creation of further state schools and extra money from the state to create new state schools.

This report is dealing with the excess after the teachers pay. They should not be paying for anything else apart from the teachers salaries.

I accept maybe not all are “elitest”, but they are certainly “well heeled”

Not disagreeing here, just making the point that most schools in the country, including fee-paying, are already registered charities.

1. If every child was to be treated equaly in the eyes of the constitution there would be no such thing as fee-paying schools.
2. By choosing fee-paying schools it is clear the parents wish for their children to be treated differently, thereby ignoring the constitution themselves.

Ok, But they are Private schools, The child can go to the Public school and get the free education. Its not the state treating children in private schools differently, its Parents who want an elite education who pay for it. Why should we subsidise private schools?

I’m not saying I agree with it, but it’s how the constitution is viewed.
Every child in Ireland gets the same as every other child. Regardless of wealth of family. No child is treated differently. Watch and see if anything comes from this. Nothing will.
A parent will take any cuts to the high court and it will be deemed unconstitutional.
As I said, the minister knows this.

If every child in Ireland is treated equally why do we need a Children’s referendum? And urgently too? The fact is that children are not treated equally in this country.

If that is the case they should change the constitution. There’s a couple of referenda on the cards that they can piggy back it on.

What has religion got to do with anything? If you want to go to a private school then you pay if you don’t then you go to a normal school. Religion shouldn’t come into it and should be kept out of education.

I see your point. My view may seem callous towards it but I mean no offence. But it’s my view that all schools run by religious organisations (of all faiths) should receive no state aid. For far too long (particularly catholic schools) they have been subsidised by the state. It’s immoral. If parents and churches want their children educated in the faith they have they should pay for that education themselves. No religious organisation should be receiving aid in delivering their ethos education. That burden must be carried by the faithful themselves. That’s my view. I doubt it would be shared by all.

You are correct, Mark. Schools should not be run by any single religion.

@Aaron, unfortunately, you can’t take religion out of it as the vast majority of public schools are Catholic based -if you do not want your child to have a Catholic education, then you have very little choice as to where to send your kids -the main (if not only) option being a fee-paying boarding school.

While I agree that religion should be kept out of education, as long as the vast majority of public schools continue to be run with a Catholic ethos, some parents have very little choice.

Personally, I think that funding to all schools should be made based on the pupil numbers, regardless of their status as fee paying or not, changing things is clear discrimination

Mark I can see your point. But this goes into a hole separate area of rates of inter marriage within the c of I and the fact community is a tiny minority trying to preserve elements of its culture and religion .
End of the day. I think this money is actually the money every school gets. There is a fee per child in every school which the government pays. I think this money is what is being discussed. The government can’t not pay this fee to the school if it’s private . As that is treating the child differently and that child’s parents are paying taxes.
While taking religion out of school appeals to some and those schools should exist for those that seek them. If religions were taken out of school . The government would have to buy vast quantities of schools from the churches and religious communities . Also very often the local church fundraise for their school the government would have to replace this funding . Has it got that sort of money ?

By that logic childless people should get that rebate too as they have no kids and therefore don’t use it? Maybe healthy people should get a rebate based on dept. of health costs, or people who have neither been the victim of, or involved in crime should get rebates on justice and policing costs.

If you are well off enough to send your kids to a private school fair play to you, but everyone must contribute to ensuring there are certain things in place for all of society to use, for the whole society to benefit from…such as educated children.

Why??? Is there no benefit?? What about most private schools belonging to a minority faith in Ireland ?? Do these people not have a right to be educated in their ethos?? Do you even realise poor church of Ireland people do not pay fees for their private secondary schools while rich prods pay full price , These schools are anything but your elite d4 schools that the media create hype about ,

@charlesFitzgerald: two corrections:
1. the TUI doesn’t have a presence in those schools as most of their members are in the VEC and Community and Comprehensive Sectors. The ASTI however has a presence in those fee-paying schools, although not in grinds schools which do not allow their employees to organise.
2. the funding in both fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools is much the same, the fees paid by parents in fee-paying schools are on top of state funding. The audit is to find out what the extra money is used for

I agree, and parents who pay fees should be allowed to claim an income tax deduction for the amount they save the government when they pay and the government doesn’t.

Unfortunately for them, no. If the State provides a scheme whereby the Exchequer funds a service and you opt not to avail of that service, you don’t get your tax back. Not even Thatcher thought like that and she wanted the State to find nothing.

Thatcher…oh dear Ireland is in a bad place when she gets trotted out in support of a policy. The reality is that parents of private school children are not rich and the stemming of govt funds would cause an exodus from private to public schools which would cost the govt a lot more than they now pay. The fair an equitable thing to do would be to allow tax deductions if the govt withdraws funding, but then Ireland has never been a far and equitable place, not even in the boom times.

The State pays exactly the same capitation for every student, fee-paying or not. The Minister’s problem sees to be the ‘top-up’ fees provide and whether a reduction in state payment is feasible. As I said if you opt out of the system, you can’t expect to be rewarded, it’d be like not paying health insurance and expecting not to have to contribute to the health budget or because you’re working, not contributing to social welfare. Fee-paying schools may or may not generate a profit, if they do, it’s the State who should get the rebate.
And by the way I wasn’t supporting any *policy*, nor using Thatcher to prove a point, I was simply pointing out that even the most tax resistant Prime Minister in Europe since WWII wouldn’t have followed such a course.

Ah, go on. Gis a thumbs up !!

No! Make up your mind and I’ll decide then Declan

We’re all stuck here in the unseeables now thanks to you Luke! Ah well might get away with a few more comments before someone tells me to shut up and to get the Hoover out.

I missed whatever word was used that had you fuming Reada, but that “…UP DA RA…” comment above says much more about its author than the subject matter of the rant! Now, I betcha I’ll have the Hoover out before you do. Lol.

Hey William. Glad to have some nice company down here. The rest of them are all smacking me  And I’m just trying to make them behave themselves. Always a mammy!  Happy New Year to you. Lol. 

So so true . The tui hate private schools why??? Because it’s rare to find a tui union member in a private school . All my teachers were Asti .

Not quite true, there are plenty of unionised teachers in fee pay schools. While I can see the argument for removing funding, the state simply cant afford to support the number of schools that would enter the state system should they scrap the 100m, at the moment at least.

@charlesFitzgerald: two corrections:
1. the TUI doesn’t have a presence in those schools as most of their members are in the VEC and Community and Comprehensive Sectors. The ASTI however has a presence in those fee-paying schools, although not in grinds schools which do not allow their employees to organise.
2. the funding in both fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools is much the same, the fees paid by parents in fee-paying schools are on top of state funding. The audit is to find out what the extra money is used for

It’s a pity Michael that you can’t black out the word. Loads of other innocent commentators’ posts got lost down the back of the class too thanks to the use of that word. It’s something ye should look into perhaps. Maybe?

@Fintan -most schools prioritize their intake based on where you live and what religion you are, so by no means do they take “all-comers” -if you are not a Catholic, you get put at the end of most entry lists, meaning that if you are not part of the majority religion, you can either hope that you are let in, or look to one of the fee paying schools.

Yes, to a certain extent they can choose their students, but the reality is that it’s fairly rare for any given year to be massively over subscribed, so really they only get those students that are willing (or able) to pay.

As for students who need counselling, or students with little or no English, you commonly get both in fee paying schools -spoiled brats who have never been told ‘no’ in their lives, and kids of ambadassadors for a start -private schools aren’t the rosy world a lot of people seem to think they are -I suspect a lot of the people falling on the “slash their funds” side of the coin have never seen what it’s like on that side of the curtain -there’s similar problems in all schools to a greater or lesser extent

@Al let’s put the myth that school *exclude* students on the basis if religion to bed: many secondary schools in my experience do not discriminate on the basis of religion for entry. I teach kids of various Christian denominations, Muslims and indeed children from no faith backgrounds. They aren’t labelled on entry. They aren’t forced to convert. They are treated as equals, that’s the Christian thing to do it strikes me.
Many fee-paying schools do not actually operate in a specific catchment area, in fact this is one of their main arguments for continuing: they only mainly take in students of a particular background, so in that way they are doing exactly what you accuse other schools of doing.
Finally I can’t agree that children with family difficulties are as often found in fee-paying schools, that just won’t wash, and if Central European immigrants are sending their kids to boarding school, I would love to know the numbers for that.

@Fintan, I didn’t say they exclude, I said that they prioritize their intake, meaning if you aren’t baptized Catholic, you are at the end of the entry list, and can be bumped for a Catholic student at any time before you start.

I also didn’t say that kids from different backgrounds were forced to convert, but they are taught through the Catholic ethos, and certainly in the past (when family members were in school), they were still forced to go to Mass etc on the holy days, which some people may not be comfortable with.

As for catchment, as I said, they have a generally lower number of people looking for entry so tend to accept anyone who applies, but their behaviour is no worse that that of free schools.

Finally, I suspect you haven’t seen the make up of many of these schools, but there are plenty of kids who don’t have english as a first language, Spaniards, Germans etc, as well as kids of ambassadors, and they need plenty of extra help to get up to scratch (note that I’m not saying, and never said they were Central Europeans, yes they are kids of wealthy Europeans, or embassy staff, but they do get sent to fee paying schools from time to time). -as for troubled kids, there might not be as many, but you do get your fair share in private schools -maybe not as many, but it’s still and issue, and is probably similar to public schools were some areas/years are worse that others.

@Al
First of all it’s good to read comments which are reasoned and calm, many can’t manage that so thanks.
Any school drawing up an admissions policy is going to have to mention their *ethos* but I can’t think of a single example where a student was displaced on the basis of faith from a Secondary School (I’m not as familiar with Primary). Schools have tightened up on admissions and the law in recent years.
Regarding being taught in a Catholic style, this is no longer a practical or realistic assumption: how do you teach Maths in the Catholic way, or follow a History course? Yes religion will come up but it isn’t an opportunity to indoctrinate. And as regards forcing kids to attend Mass, if you don’t want to go and your parents make that clear I can’t see any school dragging you in and risking calls to Joe Duffy.
Regarding catchment: one of the valid reasons for having faith schools is to protect minorities, thus they don’t have a catchment area but a catchment religion. In fee-paying schools the extra money pays for smaller classes, extra study etc, which is all fine but skews results.
And I have seen how fee-paying schools work , I’ve been a teacher for 18 years and involved in the ASTI for 13, so this issue is something I’m very familiar with. You cannot equate the children of embassy staff with rural kids from Central Europe or refugees from Africa or the Middle East, they just aren’t the same people. If you look at number of special needs students in fee-paying schools it a fraction of other schools, no SNAs, no disadvantage to speak of because ordinary workers and unemployed can’t afford to send their kids to fee-paying schools.
The work teachers do in those schools is great, they work as hard as any of us, but separate the funding issue out and the playing field would be far more even.
Thanks

What he said.