throwing shapes and taking stances is easy done in opposition

@john johnson- as FG proved as they vied to succeed FF- empty promises and hollow criticisms abound, now they continue on FF’s legacy of rot in government.

SF have never had the chance to lead the government here, I would love the opportunity to call them on their convictions and see just what they can do for the Irish people.

Ailis, they have that chance in the North and look what they’re doing- £128 Million in budget cuts, rural schools being closed and teachers losing their jobs, and no mention of abolishing the property tax up there that is on average £1,000. Because that’s the reality of facing up to the figures.

SF are playing the populist card, making people think there is a painless way out of this recession. It’s populism that got us into this recession in the first place. It’s a joke. The current opposition is a joke. The only opposition TD I can see who has made any constructive contribution to democracy in this State is Stephen Donnelly. We need more of this constructive opposition rather than populist venting.

Trueleft,
your party, the labour party is putting country before party, doing the right thing and coming off the worst for it. That you are prepared to ditch that for a party with a bloody past, a dodgy present and insane policies speaks volumes. Truly, labour is better off without you and Sinn Fein welcome to you. Given your fondness for “links”, you’ll be glad to know Sinn Fein can be linked to lots of things. As for Connolly, don’t sully his name like that…

@Ailis, I disagree, for the record I voted for Sinn fein & put up posters for them in the 80′s.
I’m not a supporter of any political party, but it is my intention to vote labour next time round.
I believe that they have “tried” to act in the national interest, even though it has cost them a lot of their supporters. That is the tough reality of power, You have to make choices you know will not be popular.
I’m deeply disappointed in Sinn Fein attempting to pretend that somehow there is an easier softer way.
I would respect them more if they didn’t enter in to cheap point scoring on every occasion.
Talk is cheap, Labour is finding this out now, but i’m impressed that they are staying the course and being responsible. Please please please, no silly comments about burning bond holders…….
(because it’s not realistic and hasn’t been for a couple of years now)

Ignoreland- your username is truly apt and your entire point is invalid, as the Northern Irish Executive has no fiscal control! In fact, great that you mentioned this, because everyone should consider how yes! There ARE cuts being implemented in the North that they have no choice in! and this is exactly part of what you are being asked to vote on on May 31st! Do you believe the EU should be able to exercise fiscal control over Ireland when she is deemed to be in breach of fiscal compact rules?
Ireland should be the only one to decide on cuts, on investment, the budgets she will enforce.
Although I despise the fact, we elected our current government and they should be the ones making the aforementioned decisions, and any government that follows after. Our independence was so hard-won! How dare they think to give such a thing away?

Allis, that argument is essentially the same as what FG and Labour use to justify cuts.
Westminister issue a block of funding to the Northern Ireland Executive which then must decide how to spend it. When the funding goes down- SF and the Assembly must cut expenditure.
Same as in the South. Our money has gone down so we have to come up with cuts or tax increases. And under the terms of our bailout, the parameters of these which the last government agreed to have essentially been set by “foreign powers”.

The only difference is that in the North the Executive can’t raise tax which is what you are suggesting they should do. However SF have blatantly opposed any tax increases, which, if you ask me is very un-left wing of them.

Also my user name Is very apt I agree, but not for the reasons you list. Also as a final point, the whole ” look at our hard won freedom/ do it for our beloved Ireland” is an appeal to emotion which is a very common logical fallacy and should be avoided in a debate about issues.

o’reilly, I voted labour, I am not a member of the labour party, and neither of these things will ever occur now. My opinuions are not based on any affiliation but on my moral compass.

Try it some time.

Amen!! Labour have sold out their principles 100%. ! Pat Rabbitte is a disgrace, Labour used to stand for SOMETHING and then the blueshirts come along and bribed them!
“Beware the risen people who have harried and held, ye that have bullied and bribed”

Mick, make sure you don’t watch joan burtons performance in primetime just now was shameful. It will make any labour voter, or former labour voter for that matter, sick in the hole.

On the upside, Clare Daly tore her to shreds.

Silly.

If you oppose austerity vote NO.???
Austerity is not unique to Ireland.
Economic downturn is not unique to Ireland.
If you believe Gerry Adams then you are one of those people who think they can make a fortune out of selling ice cubes to the eskimos.

So you, Mr Stray Mutt have all the answers then I take it?

Actually pat, its 2015, and under the terms of the fiscal compact, with reference to the Department of Finances figures published last month, that will require an extra 5-6 Billion in further cuts above the ones signed up to. So whatever argument the yes campaign are making so dismally about the possibility of more austerity if we vote no, there will DEFINITELY be more if we vote yes.

Ireland leaves the bailout in 2015, however the Commission has granted an extension to 2018 before we’ve to meet the terms. (I’d attach a link but TheJournal doesn’t allow it). It’s interesting you say that but Mary Lou hasn’t and said opposite (listen to her on Scott Williams a few days ago) – do you think she is lying or in on the conspiracy… I feel we are close to solving this scooby doo mystery. Well shaggy what you got?

The commission also said earlier on in the year that they would continue to support program countries until they could return to the markets, which if they are telling the truth renders your original argument of access to funds moot.

So, are they lying about funding but telling the truth about 2018? Or are you just cherrypicking what information you choose to believe from the commission depending on whether or not it suits your argument?

Like that you said I was cherrypicking then only chose to answer one of my questions.
But to your point – I didn’t read that he was saying we are going to need a second bailout before 2015. If he wasnt my point stands if he means before then we’ll need to be very quick before application period closes for EFSF. The Commission – there statement perhaps falsely presumes a mechanism – can be supportive but doesn’t have budget to give us money. This the key difference of two points: 2018 one is something in their power to grant while giving us money isn’t really though the support is good it don’t pay the bills.

according to kenny and co, we won’t need a second bailout. if the govt were to listen to sf now, they definitely won’t need to negotiate another loan.

We will have access to funding, did you even read the treaty???This is why I am worried for Ireland and it’s future….

you haven’t made it clear who you’re talking to mcgrory

Mairead, I don’t think Sinn Fein say that we will not need to borrow in the future. Surely you don’t think we will have fully balanced budgets in 2-3 years time. If you do you must be part of a small minority. Anyhow we have the current government for a few more years. They are a key part of the post referendum scenario. What they think is very important, like it or not. SF will not have a major say in government policy for quite a while yet, IMHO.

Well said.

From europe Adam. I have asked this same question for a month now and nobody is willing to insult everyones intelligence with a yes…..

Do you honestly think that the eurozone countries and esm will allow Ireland a catastrophic disorderly default, rather than extend the program (like they pledged to do earlier in the year) of the one country hitting its targets, meeting its commitments and paying back its loans (not to mention everybody elses who gambled on the banks and lost…but actually won in the end).

Is europes elite going to stop creating money on a computer screen to hand to Ireland, which then becomes the debts of the Irish taxpayer to be used in no small part to pay back european banks losses for them?

Will the eurozone and ecb risk bringing the whole house of cards down by letting a fire break out on this side of the ESM firewall. Whats the point of the ESM if Ireland is allowed destabilise the Euro, the whole point the ESM exists?

If you think they’ll risk everything rather than extend the program of the one country they know they’ll get their money back from…..vote Yes.

If you think that it would make no sense for them to do this……vote No.

@Adam- you are NOT VOTING ON THE ESM, you are voting on whether or not to allow the government to ratify the fiscal compact treaty and enshrine it in our constitution, which when active, because of our huge deficit, will inflict great, sustained austerity for a long time to come.
I’m not saying voting no will avoid austerity- it won’t- it can’t! It cannot be avoided.
But shouldn’t the decision of where to makes cuts, when to make cuts, how to make cuts, come from a government WE have elected? Shouldn’t we be able to decide the pace of our own recovery? Shouldn’t we be allowed to invest in growth to stimulate our economy – which will do more to help us iron out this debt then simply shutting down will? Because that is the sort of mechanism that kicks in if we are in breach of these rules. Force the government to delay, so that we might get a better deal for Ireland. If you agree, then vote NO on Thursday!

@ Too TrueLeft: So Ireland should engage in a mix of cute hoorism and taking a major gamble on our future then should we? All based on your clever calculation that the EU will provide further funds to a country which has shown it doesn’t have an appetite for keeping its finances in check going forward? Big gamble to take methinks.

Have tyo laugh at you ryan. This ‘gamble’ only exists because your party allowed (noonan was in the room at the time and did not speak up against it) a blackmail clause to be concocted against our country. Your party have used that to threaten and coerce us into a yes vote. Your party is the reason that you can even speak of a ‘gamble’, and its all you have, because there is no other reason to even consider voting yes.

Does it feel good to be part of an organization threatening and blackmailing your fellow countrymen, coercing and interfering with our right to vote on the terms of the fiscal compact by colluding with Europe to point a gun at our heads. Does it Ryan?

@ Too Trueleft: As per below, I am not a member of FG. Also Noonan may not have spoken against it (I’m not sure, like you I wasn’t at the meeting) but that is not to say that creditor countries (the Netherlands, Finland, Germany, France etc) did not speak in favour of it.

It is on the dail record that noonan, and i quoote ‘didn’t disagree’ to the blackmail clause, and sure why would he if it helps him, along with threatening harsher budgets, bully people into voting as germany and fine gael demands.

thats an iudiotic comment! If you don’t like republicans, just say so! Nobody wants a civic meltdown!

I agree John. Eating healthy and regular exercise is also a good idea, but you don’t force a person to do it when they’re on a life support machine, do you? Our domestic economy is on life support and we are being coerced into treating its recovery like it is in good health. Germany is the only country who can hit these targets right now. Germany is the country most benefitting from a weak Euro and austerity policies.

Coincidence?

its already been argued that if these measures had been in place it would not have made a differece here in ireland as we were showing a surplus for years till the crash.

Exactly Daniel, theres nothing in this treaty to prevent european or irish banks lending recklessly, which was the major factor in our downfall.

@Daniel, We may have been running a surplus, but what was our debt to gdp ratio, most governments (in all countries) are better at spending than repaying, so they can show how things improved under their term, being prudent and repaying debt was never a vote winner and there in lies the problem, sovereign debt keeps creeping up, how many gazillion does usa owe ??

brian, check out sf solutions to the crisis on sinn fein’s website. they have put forward plenty of common-sense suggestions to combat the recession but are being ignored by our govt who are intent on bringing this country to its knees

please VOTE NO! NO! NO!

Just been on the Sinn Fein website, all very vague stull about stimulating, creating short and long term employment, very short of details and the kind of employment they are talking about.

if you click on solutions, they have a lot of good ideas for recovery.

Sinn Féin is arguing that the existing funds of the European Investment Bank should be supplemented by a once-off investment by EU member states on a proportional basis. This would be made, not as fiscal transfers between states, but as sound investments that would provide sound returns for the state investment.

In addition, the matching funding criteria for member states should be amended to a 75:25 ratio, with the European Investment Bank providing the larger portion.

This is all if, buts maybes and should, very aspirational stuff.

I will Mairead – don’t worry

If I could ask you all to indulge me and to step back and look at the position SF has found itself in… Until quite recently, Sf was considered to be, if considered at all, a minority party receiving votes and support from a hard-core following and with little floating voter credibility. The last few years have changed that. FF were punished for their corruption and short-sighted policies by being cast out from office. FG and Labour obtained power through a protest vote; their success in the last election was not due to the people’s faith in their policies or competence, they were simply the most likely alternative to FF. Given this, I understand people’s disgust, particularly at Enda Kenny, but I do not understand or illy believe their outrage and surprise. We’ve shouldn’t have expected anything more.

And now to SF. The basic question to ask is; who draws benefit from your suffering? For the first time in modern Irish politics, SF are in a position to consolidate real power between now and the next election. However, they are till behaving as a minority party, hurling unsubstantiated claims from the sidelines and using emotions rather than reasoned arguments to wins debates. And yet they have also laid claim to the opposition held by FG not so ago. I for one do not want to see the pattern repeated.

Let me be absolutely clear on this: SF has gained support over the last 12 months through the pain, fear and despair arrived by the people. SF has profited from, and will continue to profit from, misery. I am quite sure the party is aware of this, and, with this in mind, I think that, in the short-term, it is not in SF’s interests to improve the lot of he population. Quite the opposite, SF will want that the suffering of the population be maintained and intensified as much as possible until the next election. The worst possible scenario for SF as a party is that the economic conditions in Ireland improve before an election, the happy occurrence benefiting the people but reducing SF’s potential voters.

Adding to this the arrogance and disrespect of a significant proportion of the The party’s grass-roots supporters; their intolerance if other points of view, the barely veiled xenophobia and contempt for people who ask for objective clarification ( and who could well be potential supporters, if treated with respect ), their use of personal insult and unverifiable doggerel, their fundamentally undemocratic approach to achieving their objects ( “what tell a truth if a lie will serve” ).

Please do not allow your current misfortunes to aid this party in gaining power. Mr Kenny is an embarrassment and a disgrace. Mr Adams trails behind him a malevolence, an intolerant crypto-fascism. This should not be an “either/or” debate. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.

ben, sf have never tried to bring down this state, only politically rejoin it with its counties in the north.
they are motivated by wanting to do right for this country and its people.
face facts, the treaty will be rejected, so you can save what little energy you have trying to lie your way to a yes vote. and if the current govt feels they are incapable of balancing the books without a threat of fines from the e.u, then maybe they should get the f*** out of leinster house and let someone else take over

Mairead, I think you make my point very well. I thought the whole point of the No campaign was NOT to balance the books and let others pick up the tab for us.

Ben, I love the way you mention “German taxpayers willingness to pay for our mistakes ” but skate over the little issue of Irish taxpayers being FORCED to pay for bankers mistakes right across Europe, not least of which Germany.

“Our mistakes”?? I hope you’re only speaking for yourself???!
99% of the population had nothing to do with the bank’s failure.
Yes some people took out mortages too large, but domestic lending alone did not cause this.

Tne good man Enda said himself a year ago “This is not your fault”…
If so WHY SHOULD WE PAY IT?
A NO Votes says “No thanks – we don’t want another loan shark bailout”

The Foreign investors should take the hit on this. Their risk their f***kup. Not ours.

touché, TooTrueLeft!

@Ben- you say: “I thought the whole point of the No campaign was NOT to balance the books and let others pick up the tab for us.” May I politely draw your attention to a phrase Mr. Adams uses above- “Sinn Féin agrees with deficit reduction.” Sounds like balancing the books is high on the SF agenda- so long as the measures are relative to the income earners capabilities, and the disadvantaged are protected.

Trueleft, Irish taxpayers will pay for the negligence and greed of it’s goverments, Central Bank, FSA, senior civil servants, commercial banks, county and city councillors and gombeen politicians. Why would you expect the taxpayers of other countries to stump up for us?

Ailis, Gerry says he agrees with deficit reduction but in the next breathe he says he wants to spend €13 billion on domestic expansion, a figure which would quadruple the deficit.

It would only quadruple the deficit if we continue on our present course. The interest payment on our debt is now 7.5 billion a year.

Not oops ryan. A stimulus package could boost the domestic economy, cut spending and increase the overall tax take WITHOUT increasing what an individual worker pays.

Theres 5 Billion in the nprf right now we could use, but your party leader Enda is under orders vich must be obeyed vithout qvestion from frau merkel (your actual party leader) to impose her policy of austerity.

Of course SF agree with deficit reduction- anyone with an ounce of sense would realise that in order to balance ones budget, you need tighter controls in tandem with GROWTH. Then one would see deficit reduction.
Spending cutbacks and no investment means more exorbitant loans and more interest then more spending cutbacks… without growth, austerity is futile.
If you have a loan and then you lose your job, but you “cut back” on everything, your debt won’t magically disappear. You need to generate an income and ALSO operate a sensible plan to paying it back.
That’s why this one sided approach of this fiscal compact to reducing deficits is completely obsolete!
If you can see the logic in that, vote NO on May 31st- for Ireland!

@ Too Trueleft: Your party leader, Mr Adams, mentions deficit reduction. A stimulus package doesn’t reduce the deficit. So what is your definition of deficit reduction? Do you not agree that it comprises spending cutbacks and tax increases?

PS: I’m not a member of Fine Gael.

Unlike yourself ryan, I am not and have never been a member of any political party, and have stated numerous times over many months that I have always voted labour.

Do try keep up.

Okay, you are not a member of SF. You just support them (as per your comment above). However I note you are too busy falsely claiming I’m a member of FG to answer my questions:

“So what is your definition of deficit reduction? Do you not agree that it comprises spending cutbacks and tax increases?”

No I do not ryan. If you use investment like the nprf to take people off the dole you reduce spending and increase the overall tax take, without increasing taxation on individuals.

Yes you can use investment to do that, however saying that this will automatically end austerity/tax increases is not true. There is no way a stimulus package of the €5bn in the NPRF would close the €16-17bn gap with overnight growth. The economy would need to grow at incredible double digit rates. So austerity would still be needed, and if it is not raising taxes then it is spending cutbacks.

Also one of the big causes of our budgetary collapse around 2008 was the lack of a sustainable taxation system, and an over reliance on property and associated one-off taxes. So a rebalancing of the taxation system is necessary.

Show me where anyone said it would end austerity ryan.

Take your time….

You do not wish to raise taxation, so I take it that you want 100% spending cutbacks instead of the current rate of about 55% cutbacks to 45% tax increases?

@too trueleft, on every sinn fein poster that says vote no to austerity, this implies that to vote no ends austerity

Oops indeed. So the only way to reduce a deficit is to impose cutbacks. Really Ryan? You might want to read on recent Irish history, just from 1980s onwards. We didn’t manage to “cut” our way out of the last recession. This fallacy has a name, it’s called the Spanish theory – the Spanish empire collapsed because of this fixed mindset:

“The Spanish Theory, for one, held that only a fixed amount of value existed on earth, and therefore the path to the accumulation of wealth was to learn to extract it more efficiently from the soil or from people’s backs. Then there was the English Theory that held that value could be created through ingenuity and technology. So the English had an Industrial Revolution, while the Spanish spun their wheels trying to exploit the land and the Indians in the New World.”

Why are you making up a quote and then putting your own slant on the quote you made up?

Ha, was just going to ask that myself. I don’t think he knows what quotation marks are.

you’re entire comment was fallacious and misleading

blatant lies roll easily off your tongue dub and you have the cheek to say ” you need to use intelligent argument.” and proceed yourself with unintelligent dribble. VOTE NO! because we can manage without the help of the e.u who have been given 400 BILLION in fishing rights by this country while we have only received 264 BILLION from them. VOTE NO! because it makes sense.

@Tootrue and @lies
Interesting that you only choose a semantic point about quotation marks ?!
I trust therefore that otherwise you agree with me.

@Ailis
Theres really no response to your comment.

@mairead
“blatant lies” , Care to explain ? Disagreeing with you does not constitute blatant lies

Can you indicate the source of your data if quoting figures please

You used double quotation marks to create a bogus quote which you then made a BS slant on. Can you not make your point based on words the man actually said?

Sinn Fein have been in the democracy business a lot longer than any blueshirt!

Germany can balance its books thanks to the trade advantage being part of the euro gives its exports.

That is one reason, they are also very careful about what they pay their workers and government workers, example a consultant in Germany is on less than 100.000 euro.. they do things right over there.

is that why they are protesting throughout germany? the police who were meant to control the crowd actually removed their helmets and joined the people in their protest. and balacing the books is not the same as austerity. balancing the books is a combination of growth and job inititaves and strict budgets, something that all of us realise has to be done, except of course the govt, who seem to believe the same as you, that austerity alone will balance the books. they weren’t even asking for a growth agenda until sf said it and even now, kenny is not making a committment to growth or jobs, just saying it ‘could’ be added to the treaty.
VOTE NO! NO! NO!

Where is this money for stimulus comming from? private pensions is the only place left to get the kind of money Gerry Adams was talking about in his stimulus. we are already over burdened with debt? according to the ULA if we vote no there will be 10.000.000 in further tax hikes.. if that was to happen that would be real austerity.

Theres 5 billion in the nprf and money available from various european investment schemes karl.

That figure should be 10 billion

What various European investment funds?

The european investment bank lends up to 50% of the cost of projects if they meet certain criteria. Our government could easily apply for a loan to supplement investment from the nprf

@ Mairead: It is usually Hollande rather than SF who is credited with discussing policies for growth, but neither can claim it as their own:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/kenny-in-talks-with-ec-boss-baroso-16063170.html (See first paragraph)

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-20/eu-leaders-sent-letter-to-eu-commission-on-growth-monti-says.html

What kind of jobs are you talking about? more governement jobs? what criteria is it, all very vague stuff.

Construction jobs karl. Finish housing estates, put young couples with disposable incomes in them paying rent, because nobody’s giving mortgages, you save 20,000 euro for everyone you take off the dole queue and create a revenue stream through rent paid to the state on these homes.

The Germans do a lot of things very well. However, if you think “austerity worked” in Germany then you’ve been misled. The austerity policies they imposed have “worked” because of a favourable global environment. Pure austerity requires an “external” miracle (or stimulus). Look around – we’re on the road to destroying the Eurozone, and possibly the EU as well. The US is vulnerable, especially if there is a Eurozone collapse. China’s heading for a slowdown. Where’s the miracle coming from this time?