One Problem that the article conveniently ignores is that nearly 40% of the population in the EU feel that the EU/ECB is on the wrong path, same as we do. Nobel Prize winning economists like Paul Krugman accuse the EU leadership of taking the economy on a path of economic suicide.

As for complaining about the big man in the house (Mr.Germany and Mrs.France), well that is common across the Eurozone. It has even been a source of anger in the EU commission itself and in many countries that us.

As for your point about the Irish always blaming someone else, there is an element of truth in that. There is also an element of truth that analysis like your Jason is driven by an Irish desire as well to ingrate with the big house, and be ruled, rather than accept responsibility. Both are products of our national lack of self-respect and confidence.

A good article, but at the same time I don’t think you can compare our 4.5 Mill. people as like for like – not all went mad buying multiple houses, cars, holidays etc… Yet all are being made to feel the pain.

I think most would take the austerity if there was a true sense of fairness about it. We still see politicians getting away with murder (expenses, perks, tribunals) and no one brought to account, this also applies to the banks.

I also wouldn’t mind austerity if I knew for a fact that the money saved was being spent wisely, let’s face it, there is still too much wastage and corruption in our public spending and the government still has a knack for just throwing money at problems.

I also think we as a nation should continue to stand up for ourselves – that is what all the other nations do.

Still, good article though.

1. There is no democracy at Commission or Presidential level in the EU
2. There is no direct democratic mandate in any EU country for a federal Europe
3. There is no democratic method to stop Europe from further federalising except saying No to occasional treaties that only offer baby steps in either direction.

Give the people of Europe, The Big One- a referendum on whether they want a federal Europe or a single market of sovereign states. That is the question we’ve never been asked in plain, bold language. I think I know why…..

And I was in the nice wing of the PDs too! I think!

Sounds great……but….. Let’s have all countries in the EU have referendums to see if the public want a federal Europe.
I think you will find two things:
1. Of course this vote will never happen.
2. Even if by a miracle of miracles it did happen, it would be widely rejected in every country, especially in the central countries.
So the question remains, who is pushing for this federal Europe?
Patently politicians with zero mandate, who wish to be remembered for something.
The Euro currency project has failed, EU central banking has failed, the peripheral countries need to devalue, by moving to a Euro 2 currency or back to punt, lira, drachma and peseta.

Interesting article though the author when talking about democracy has nothing to say about when France and Holland voted no to some referendums what their politicians did to get around those results. Democracy in the EU only seems to work if you vote yes….

Good article. I would agree with 99% of what was outlined. Ireland does not know what she wants to be and I think the lack of a new political party representing s new vision plays a part in this. We certainly do not have a leadership competent enough to have us go it alone, we are better off linked to whoever has the most profitable market.

This line really finished it for me: ” We don’t even want to pay for clean drinking water”. So, whos paid for our clean drinking water up till now Jason? More blueshirt ‘repeat the same lie often enough…..’ bullcrap. We’ve always paid for it, through taxation instead of directly per household. Different method, thats all. And when the tax take disappeared, the universal social charge was imposed to make up the shortfall. Now, inda and the boys steal our taxes that cover the cost of clean water to cover bankers gambling losses then demand we pay twice for the same thing, while columnists claim we don’t want to pay for it once.

Oooooh, great article…..

What about a default and euro exit? It seems it would satisfy the knee-jerk left (we’re not paying for bankers/govt. mistakes) and right (there would be no money to pay SW and PS etc.). Swift return to international competitiveness instead of a decade or more of austerity and decline. People will accept punt devaluation more readily than pay cuts. Or is the general consensus that we want a better bailout deal?

Nice wing of the PD’s? Ha!

This is the typical tripe that comes from an EU bandit. The seems to be this consensus in Ireland that we just aren’t good enough and we beat ourselves down at every opportunity. It is this defeatist attitude that will suppress our economy for years to come. It seems we cant live with the EU and we cant live without it, yet it has become a bueaurocratic monster of unelected elites with no accountability to anyone. I will tell you what I dont want and thats a federal Europe.

We as a nation need to be more critically engaged at the European level. We need to be positively putting forward ideas about how we think things should be done. As a country that hasn’t gone around invading its neighbours, we don’t have much historical baggage and would be well positioned to be a constructive voice with no agenda.

We as Irish people also need to be more critically and constructively engaged in the national discourse. We do have responsibilities and duties as well as rights.

A couple of nights ago, I was in a discussion in another online forum where various contributors were sneering at the government that so many people professed not to understand the Fiscal Treaty. I got into quite a row when – God between us and all harm – I suggested that if people didn’t know anything about it, they might get off their backsides and go and read up on it. If you’re able to access the internet, and obviously those I was arguing with were, there’s no excuse. There are various summaries out there that could be read in a few minutes.

Ah the ole drivel of putting our society down is back again. While some of his points are true alot of it is absolute one sided crap. So because Germany is bigger we should just shut up and be good little boys? The problem with our own government is they don’t look after our interests in the EU, not that any other country does! Ironic also that he talks about the supposed bad traits of the average Irish society, forgetting that he is portraying the biggest one in abundance – negativity and self loathing. This is not an article, it’s a rant!

I am sorry did Ireland cause the credit crunch I don’t think so. The only reason the Germans want us to not default is so they don’t have to bail out there own banks. We are just a drop in the ocean of there own debt but they have enough liquidity to cover some not all of it. The credit crunch happened when investors realise the financial market is drowning in derivatives and credit default swaps which are still being used, so the banks are still not lending to each other. If you remember what Ireland did in 2008 was make a promise to the banks that all there debt would be covered so all the money we had saved up and it was quite a bit over 42 billion was swallowed up over the space of two years by these banks as Ireland was used as a tipping point by some larger banks and others to clear some of the really toxic debt and our government was rolled over and we accepted everything the special advisers told us. With the two brian’s unable to comprehend what was going on they accepted all the advice given to them by vested interests such as “you cannot let any banks fail” . Hindsight is a great thing but the mistakes made four years ago are what caused this crisis trying to pin it on the people is what is most distressing. Now hold on a minute sure we “did all go mad” didn’t we, yeah sure if people keep saying it, it must be true.

“they lent we took it” during the fake Celtic tiger years….speak for yourself buddy!! Plenty of decent hard working people did not take a penny of this fake money as they knew they could not pay it back. Speak for yourself and think before you speak!

What a smarmy article! Isn’t it time we stopped listening to unqualified people telling us what we would stand to lose by leaving Europe, and projecting the worst alternatives. We could get a bloody backbone for starters and not listen to this tripe. The most condescending tone in an article for a long time. In one decade we have lost everything by joining the euro and we have thirty years of austerity in our future, to pay back money to god knows who, because their investments failed and the last shower were bullied into signing guarantees for them. I would rather we stood on our on feet and took a bloody chance rather than be thrown titbits from passer-bys in Germany and France. There is no point in a union where the smallest never get a game.

“We have no idea as to what sort of country we want to be, so how on Earth can we have any idea as to what sort of Europe we want to live in?”

We have been given no real choice in deciding what sort of country we want to be in, and we certainly have no choice in the Europe we want to be part of. Any time the people of Ireland have impressed their opinion contrary to our “leaderships” desires we have had it forced down our throats until we concede. A previous poster is correct , we need a new party in this country, we have to get this shower (FF/FG/L) out of our faces, and don’t get me started on SF. As things stand the beatings will continue until moral improves.

I read Jason’s blog regularly. While he often makes some interesting points and funny blog entries, one regular feature of his writing that I don’t enjoy is his scorn for the Irish people and the Irish electorate which is again evident in the above piece

“We’re much more at ease with our face in the cold wet muck, leering hatefully at the man going back to his big house, f**ked over once again. No one does victimhood like the Irish, shaking our collective fists at the Brits, Strongbow and the ECB.”

I really don’t think it is an accurate or fair portrayal of Ireland, it is more of a caricature.

i have to agree with Martin mac. i didn’t take any money during the Celtic tiger. i was prudent so why should i say for the rest of the idiots! buyer beware did any one ever hear of that?

A lot of unfairness in this article, delivered in a smug, condemning superior tone.
I believe many of us did not engage in borrowing large sums of money to speculate and build up a portfolio of property. Most of Those that did borrow money borrowed it to pay for one overpriced home, and made the transaction on the back of fear that if prices continued to soar as they had, they would never have the chance to own their own home, and remember, paying a mortgage was cheaper than renting in most cases. The majority of the losses incurred by our banks that were then foisted on the taxpayer, were almost solely owned by a handful of developers. I will never accept that we ‘went mad ‘ as enda so helpfully told the world on an international stage! Holding this opinion does not mean I have childish views about Europe. It means my eyes are open and what I see is that Ireland should come first in all our considerations in amendments to our constitution, which is there to protect the people of ireland, not enslave them.

And yet those same people have to contribute to fixing the situation. Clearly there is no reward for being prudent, much better off with incontinent spending so you have nothing for them to take eh?

You say, Jason, that we are at least half responsible because we gladly took the money the Germans and international banks loaned us. I think it’s safe to say that we are profoundly paying for our foolishness, whilst the banks and the greedy speculators are being payed back even though they are at least half responsible!

‘We’.

You don’t speak for me, Jason.

Having a different opinion to you on our place in Europe does not mean Irish people need to ‘grow up’.

Yes, you are a right wing hawk who believes that the Irish population should lay down and take decades of austerity, suffer for debts that aren’t ours and keep our mouths shut whilst writing cheques for whatever indirect tax the Troika dreams up next. And for what – the good of an elite leaving in the leafy boulevards of Lyon or Hanover?

I’m not confused about where I would like to see Ireland – as a small and proud state with complete fiscal independence, refusing to pay bank debt that’s not ours, extricated from the Euro and with closer ties forged to London and Washington.

Your article should win an award for smugness though, it’s no wonder you were a PD!

Political activist? Where’s the political argument? This sorry column is a pitiful farrago of cartoon stereotype. Perhaps you might have something valid (politically and otherwise) to contribute if you got a (useful) job yourself…?

Poor article I thought. But I guess it wasnt meant to be much more. Is the EU project doomed if Germany keeps trying to use a currency that gives it an unfair advantage? Will southern european countries be made to continue using a currency that is too strong for their economy? This game will continue. More poor countries like Croatia, Serbia and Romania coming into the EU. This only suits Germany keeping the euro low in value so it can export to these new countries. These places then take over the tourist markets from Southern europe as they are cheaper options. The whole project has to be questioned. All along it suited business interests and they pushed the agenda. Time to stop and ask where we will be in 20 or 50 years time.

The article puts forward many valid points but ignores others.
The Euro has been disasterous for all periphery euro-zone nations except Finland (which had it’s crisis in the 90′s and is wedged between stable Sweden and booming Russia).
The Euro crisis would have an adversely effect even without our homegrown crisis.
Demographic incompatiblity between core European nations and ourselves. Nations such as Germany are facing an impending pensions crisis. This informs their need to save banks at all costs. Irelands young workforce will have to remain underemployed waiting on a solution that does not require the creative destruction of the banking system.
Ireland requires deflation to return to growth (drive down costs, wages & prices). The ECB is pursuing inflationary policies.
Ireland requires a greater degree of autonomy to find Irish solutions to resolve this crisis and to protect our economy from further detoriation in the eurozone economy. Ceding more fiscal powers is the opposite of what we need.
Hans Werner-Sinn offers a more Euro-centered perspective on the nature and scale of Europes crisis.

http://www.international-economy.com/TIE_W12_Sinn.pdf

Reasoned debate on an article about Europe? Comments agreeing and disagreeing in a civilised manner? The normal contributors with their flow of bitter whining that makes debate impossible mustn’t be up yet…

One of the worst articles I have read on here in long time. It is a rant, and as if you ensure appeal to the lowest common denominator it has curse words. It presents three options based on speculation, ignores over 40 years of European history and misunderstands federalism. I will skip
Leviathan, thanks,

I don’t like the article ! It is biased and one sided . However we must be seen to stand up for ourselves

Agree with a lot of this article. We need to decide where we are going and as for bloody referendums we didn’t need any when the structural funds were pouring in.

Typical smug elitist shite from a enthralled Eurolover seeking to justify his beloved progressive EU screwing the general Irish population. This article reeks of the post-colonialist inferiority complex characteristic of our comprador elite, which entails blaming everything on imagined deficiencies in the Irish psyche so as to put us proles in our place and allow them to continue managing their clientelistic relationships with the big boy capitalists in Europe. Points above about the real faultline in Europe being class rather than nationality-based are spot on.

An Excellent article. Why would media not report on Kenny initiative?

Very good article, its true, poor old paddy doesn’t know he wants or how to go about it, never has. “Independence” was a disaster for us, no idea how to govern ourselves, too many vested interests and parochial sleevens turned this fine country into a narrow minded authoritanian dictatorship practically. I wonder if we got home rule or some sort of dissolved assembly would we have turned out better, governing ourselves with a helping hand. Doesn’t seem to have done the Welsh or the Scots any harm

I STOPPED READING AFTER THE FIRST CURSE WORD!

‘Our immigrants’

‘We’ don’t own them, you know, even if they don’t get to vote in a treaty that directly affects them.

Lots of we didn’t party comments. Just wondering then where the 190 Bn of household debt came from? 27 Bn of it personal debt – credit cards, personal loans and the like. True, not everybody partied. But many did…

Not sure I agree with the arguments of victimhood, we were led down a bad road by our political leaders during the boom.

Having said that this article should be an important eye opener to the benefits of Europe and that other countries naturally look out for number one. European Politics is unfortunately a slow game of finding consensus between half a billion people. We will never always get our way just as much as Leitrim never always gets its way over a Dublin centered political system. But can Leitrim go it alone as a country? Likewise can Ireland really go it alone outside of the EU or outside of the Euro?

It’s a debate we need to have but I feel it’s not something we can risk testing during such a crisis. There are worthy points around leaving the Euro etc, but I think they need to be left until we’re out of the crisis. Too much at stake to throw a nationalist rant and pull out. It sends all the wrong signals to the world and to investors.

And don’t tell me for a second “we don’t need their money”. We do!