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Dublin: 11 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Column: Promissory note deal sees Fine Gael come out on top

The response to the promissory note deal has ranged from muted in the case of Fianna Fáil to outrage from Sinn Féin and the Independents – so what does this deal mean for Fine Gael, asks Gary Murphy.

Gary Murphy

THE ECONOMISTS, CELEBRITY and otherwise, complain that it’s a bad deal saddling future generations with a colossal debt that is not ours. Other voices of dissent from the noble Ballyhea protestors to the trade union movement make the same point. Private bondholder debt is now clearly sovereign debt.

There is no more vagueness around the payment of the promissory notes. There is no write down. Debt is debt which has to be paid no matter how far off the day. It’s not our debt but thanks to the bank guarantee scheme, and we still don’t know the true details of that murky night, it is.

Opposition politicians complain that the government didn’t seek a write down to which the Minister for Finance, rather sensibly, replies there was no point. It is not a particularly good negotiating strategy to have as your opening gambit a move that your opponents will simply not entertain or take seriously. In fact if that was to have been the government’s opening move then we should really despair of those leading us.

It has been made clear to the government ever since it took office in March 2011 that a write down was simply not an option. For the government to have gambled on such an approach again would surely have made getting any reasonable deal close to an impossibility.

The Response

The opposition response to the deal has ranged from muted in the case of Fianna Fáil, who will always be tainted with the fact they were the authors of the infamous bank guarantee, to outrage from Sinn Féin and the Independents. The heckles of derision howled at Micheál Martin from the government benches when he claimed in his Dáil speech that there was always going to be a deal and that the government was going to claim credit for it summed up his problem.

Having resurrected Fianna Fáil from the ashes of the 2011 general election Martin now faces an increasingly difficult political path forward as the government will crow about the deal while reminding the electorate that it was Fianna Fáil who originally saddled them with the debt that the coalition has renegotiated. Martin’s plaintive cry that the original promissory note deal was foisted upon the government that he was a senior minister of is unlikely to hold much sway with an electorate anxious for any kind of good news after years of austerity.

Sinn Féin’s strident opposition to the deal is unlikely to do it much harm in the polls. It might be fantasy economics to advocate and expect a complete write down but it clearly is good politics. Being in opposition allows such luxury positions to be taken. This is something that Fine Gael and particularly Labour have learned to their cost now that they are in government.

Feisty speech

The Tanaiste’s feisty speech in the Dáil on Thursday showed a return to the Gilmore for Taoiseach of the 2011 general election campaign. The barely disguised contempt he showed at the end for those who had jumped ship suggested he had recovered his political antennae which he seemed to have waylaid amidst the ever deepening gloom of the budgets Labour has been party to over the past two years.

Labour has been stuck in the last number of opinion polls at its core vote of about 10 per cent. It’s task now it to claw back some of the increasing floating vote that brought it to its largest ever result of over 19 per cent in 2011. Labour’s history of coming out of coalition governments with much worse results that when it entered seems likely to continue but for now the party is likely to be at least somewhat rejuvenated by this deal.

The big political winners, however, are likely to be Fine Gael. After Enda Kenny’s spectacularly disastrous performance in responding to the Magdalene Laundaries report in the Dáil on Tuesday when he was curiously out of kilter with the prevailing public mood, the Taoiseach returned with a forceful if understated performance on Thursday.

Notwithstanding the usual political jibe against Fianna Fáil his speech most likely reaffirmed the public’s view of him as a decent man trying his best in pretty intolerable circumstances. And most importantly for him, one who procured a deal that many thought he couldn’t get.

Not what they promised, but…

As he pointed out himself the deal will not sort out all our economic woes, it does saddle onerous debt on future generations, and it certainly is not what Fine Gael promised in the last general election campaign. It is, however, a damn sight better than what many of the economists and his political opponents expected he could achieve.

He has also been blessed with good judgement in his Minister for Finance Michael Noonan who has showed a steady hand throughout these past two years. Noonan might have been a terrible leader of Fine Gael but he clearly is on top of his brief and an able negotiator.

Irish politics is in an odd place. The old predictable voting patterns are gone. No one really has any idea how the next general election will turn out and there is a still a hard economic road ahead for both the government and the people.

The spectacle of our elected representatives voting yea and nay early on Thursday morning to liquidate the former Anglo Irish Bank when most of them, if they are honest, had very little idea as to what exactly they were voting for and what the outcome would be, sums up the rather surreal nature of our politics. Still as of now it is a politics which has a future.

Gary Murphy is Associate Professor of Politics and Head of the School of Law and Government at Dublin City University. For more articles by Gary Murphy click here.

Read: As it happened: Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin on promissory note deal>

Read: TDs question lack of debate on promissory notes>

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Comments (153 Comments)

  • The whole FG vs FF thing is a ruse. We are supposed to think each party has separate principles when in fact they are just two tribes with the same objective: stay in power to be able to look after their own pay, golf buddies and hangers on. It’s a bit like the meat fiasco: You think you are voting for red blooded Irish patriots but after each election they turn out to to be donkeys!

    Reply
  • sean 09/02/13 #

    Yesterday I had no debt , today I must pay interest only on my next door neighbours mortgage for 25 years , then I must pay their mortgage in full over a further 15years ,
    Yeah that sounds like a fantastic deal to me!!!!!!!!!

    Reply
  • Phil 10/02/13 #

    Sorry Gary Murphy but cannot see your stance on your story. You imply that noonan is a good negotiator and got us a good deal. He did not get us a “good deal”, are you politically too tied up to see the deal we got is shocking to say the least. We didn’t even ask for a debt deal, how is that good negotiation? We were told we could just extend the length of the loan. Now basic understanding of debt would tell you that this is not the way to conduct negotiations. Secondly you seem to imply that politics seems to have a future with either Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael, now saying that had completely discredited you as a journalist. Have you not seen what these parties have done to our country? Yes you have, so your either in with politically or you don’t know what’s going on on the world. Just my opinion.

    Reply
    • Gary’s not a journalist but aside from that you’re right. As far as I can remember a prominent FF member launch one of Gary’s books. He’s a man of the establishment, through and through.

      Reply
  • Media in Ireland is shockingly bad !

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  • I must say I found Noonans inflation speech offensive!

    20 years ago I got £100 for an 8 hour day.
    £500 for a 40 hour week.

    Now casual contract .
    €400 for a 40hour week= €314.96 yet all of my bills gas , electricity, Mortgage,
    Property tax, motor tax, food , insurance.
    It’s time to say no more!

    Reply
    • Da Moose 10/02/13 #

      Obviously that should be a £

      Reply
    • Conor 10/02/13 #

      well the question is, did you educate yourself to get a better job while you had the money to do so?

      Reply
    • DOO 10/02/13 #

      Conor,plenty of ridiculous donkeys getting paid above And beyond average,some people naturally lucky to get a job that pays well. What about the man/woman,who can live easily,happy to live on thirty grand a year? Now imagine that happy go lucky person who was happy, now getting less,and less each week/month cause some greedy fat banker wasn’t doing their job, didnt follow policies, procedures, still gets pension, still gets bonus. but you’re right. that banker probably got educated with all their money, lawyers too.

      Reply
    • Conor 10/02/13 #

      Well if people don’t have the ambition to educate and better themselves, then they don’t have the right to begrudge anyone who did. Pure laziness blaming everyone else for their problems.

      Reply
  • Ask the people about this deal, in a referendum and FG/Labour will get their answer!

    Reply
  • FG have no chance if they continue to attack the working mans wages,
    They have shown greater contempt than FF, respite care brought us back to vat on shoes,
    Talking of reducing frontline pay while leaving their cronies alone , and those in nine to five jobs alone
    They have shown us what they are , we won’t forget

    Reply
    • Fine Gael are liars. They have renaged on their manifesto promises and have never apologized. FF were chancers certainly and corrupt but not as blatently rotten and power hungry as FG. I will vote for whomever contracts to repeal the property tax, but I’d be loath to vote for FF as they might decide to join up with FG and then we’d be rightly………..

      Reply
  • The fact that the author refers to what has happened as a deal puts the rest of the article in context.

    “Debt is debt which has to be paid no matter how far off the day. ”

    Incorrect. A government can seek to have it classified as odious debt, which it obviously is as it was incurred for the benefit of private individuals and entities rather than the Irish people, in which case a nation can have it removed from its balance sheet. And thats AFTER its converted from the mystical prom note to the sovereign.

    Think I’ll believe the economists that queues up this week to decry the pup we’ve been sold under the guise of a ‘deal…

    Reply
  • Feisty speech, was when they said not one red cent we will burn the bondholders, it was all lies.

    Reply
  • Must be great to be on top of the sh1t pile

    Reply
  • sean 09/02/13 #

    Mark seeing as u are giving europes golden puppet some credit , then perhaps u could answer a few questions for us ?
    1. Why didn,t enda wait under after a supreme court ruling on the p.notes (after all if the where found to be illegal….which they are ) then we could have told Europe there is no debt so no need fir any deal).
    2. How could they wind up Anglo in a couple if hours , when only a couple of weeks back Alan dukes stated it would take years to wind down .
    3. Why are the ECB the only winners from this scam ?
    4. If this scam is so good fir Ireland , why are we going to need a second bailout?
    5. What exactly do the Irish tax payer,s gain from the scam ?
    Enlighten me , please I could do with a good laugh……………blueshirt Dolan you can answer these 2 I,m sure …………after you get your lad out of enda,s jacksie !

    Reply
  • Inflation???is the euro zone not trying to stop inflation?/keep it below 3%??surely that means the debt is still going to be just as large when the piper needs to be paid…what annoys me is everyone calling it a DEAL…how is it a deal when theyre getting the exact same money out of us as they were before the prom notes were abolished? All that sh1t in the summer about ireland being a special case my arse…The only reason the late night emergency session was called in the dail was that the prom notes were going to be brought up in the high courts the next day…maybe some ruling on them may have been passed so the government got rid and changed to bonds before anyone had a chance to challange the prom notes….DEAL…not in my eyes….Same as last march….SMOKE AND MIRRORS…SMOKE AND MIRRORS..only difference is now theres no chance of renegotiating them at all…

    Reply
  • sean 09/02/13 #

    FG had nothing to with this , it drafted by the ECB for the ECB …………..somw of U folks need to start thinking for yourself , all fg done was sneak it thru the fail with minimum debate ……again at the order of the ECB

    Reply
  • I nearly got sick reading that Fine Gael propaganda.

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    • Good

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    • Vincent dolan i hope your happy. You and your ilk in fg have screwed us again. Bertie ahern will be in hell waiting for you

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    • So long as FG is in charge (and can look after its camp followers) all is well with the world, eh Vincent?

      It’s been said that democracy only lasts until the “leaders” realise they can loot the treasury with impunity. This is another nail in the coffin of democracy in Ireland.

      Reply
    • While I think of it, this deal is a complete turkey anyhow, it’s only worth €4bn to us over the promissory notes, according to Stephen Kinsella, Constantin Gurgdgiev, etc.

      When the dust settles and people see that the government has tried selling us a pup here, whatever popularity bump their spin has mustered up for them will be more than overturned.

      Reply
    • @david- you’re so right. Saving €20b and getting the sovereign interest rate down to levels not seen since the 1990’s- what were FG thinking? Shocking stuff. Next thing you know they’ll be sending the Troika home and restoring economic sovereignty. The gangsters! You, Sir are a clown. I have little doubt you’re sitting there in front of your pc now with novelty oversized shoes on your feet, donning a red nose, sporting a fake plastic flower on your lapel that squirts water at people…

      Reply
    • The estimated cut in Decembers budget was to be, correct me if i’m wrong, 2.6bn. This “deal” will bring a saving of between 800million-1bn. So they’re only gonna cut 1.6bn. So tell me for the love of good god how this is a good thing. Austerity has not gone away, its just been moved “further down the road”.

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    • @censored- I don’t know if you read it but actually Fine Gael and Labour won an overwhelming majority at the last election. It was in the papers- I’m surprised you didn’t see it. They have all the democratic mandate they need to make big decision. That’s why they’re there. Of course it’s not democratic if the only constituency you respect, yourself agrees with what they do, isn’t that right?

      Reply
    • Vinvent…… a mandate based *SOLELY* on LIES!!!!!

      Do u eally want me to re-post the liars in action………….again?

      Reply
    • History will not be kind to kenny he will be viewed in the same circles as cowen and ahearn.

      Reply
    • @vincent. Surely an educated man like your self can do the math. FF secured 40% of the vote from the last election and Labour got 19%. considering that only 70% of eligible voters actually bothered to vote. So Vincent that equates to 18% FF and 7% Lab = 25% of the eligible votes. Whats that you were saying about an overwhelming majority.

      Reply
    • Sorry that should be FG not FF in previous post :)

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    • @dermot- history will record this: Cowen et al inherited a country in robust financial health and left it teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, in massive debt, beholden to foreign finance having surrendered sovereignty to the Troika. Enda Kenny will leave the country with a much reduced debt, lower interest rates and with our economic sovereignty restored.

      Reply
    • @kathy- if people choose not to vote they have surrendered their mandate having abstained from the most important election in Irish history. Not a lot you can do about that. This Government has a legitimate mandate in that it secured the vast majority of those who engaged in the process.

      Reply
    • Cough cough….based on lies Vincent
      And as you rightly pointed out, it was probably the most important election in our short independent history.
      And what did they do? Lied like common thieves …… disgusted

      Reply
    • They won a big majority based on their pre-election promises. That was their mandate. Due to the weakness of the Irish parliamentary system there is nobody to rein them in now they’re in power. That is not democracy. I thought we were electing citizen representatives, not a Sun King.

      Reply
    • Oooh, they lied! Of course they lied they’re politicians, its part of their culture ffs! What’s unbelievable is that after all these years there were still morons out there who actually believed political promises, “Brussels way or Labours way”, you actually believed that crap! Come on, you should now by now that most Irish politicians would gladly paint their backsides green white and orange, have their nipples pierced, hang bells on them and dance naked down Grafton Street singing “Celebration” by Kool and the Gang if they thought they could get elected. Jesus wept!

      Reply
    • Yes vincent your dead right. I am a clown who doesnt buy bildeberg noonan and fg propaganda. Del boy and rodney done the deal of the century doing exactly what the ecb wanted. Sovereign debt until 2053. 750million to senior bondholders at anglo now its liquidated. Hoorah for vincent dolan and the europhiles. Huzzah

      Reply
    • You are the goebells of fg vincent. The master dumbeldoire.

      Reply
  • Is appointing KPMG to liquidate Anglo Irish a good choice?

    Further details by searching in Google for ‘KPMG Hanna Windle Swindle’

    Cheers

    A Taxi Driver

    Reply
  • Jaysus! It’s like the WWF on here. Starring the blueshirt tag team with copious amounts of waffle and bluster.
    To put the record straight. What went on with the p notes was NO DEAL. But ya know there is so much sovereign debt in the euro Ponzi system right now that there well may have to be some monetizing down the road. The crisis as a whole is far, far from over. Fingers crossed and remaining hopeful despite the current administration and their lies.

    Reply
  • Drop the onerous debt line, by the time this has to be paid it will not be worth the same! However this is only the 1st step to recovery, the people now need a deal on mortage debt…

    Reply
    • The 2nd being Noonans announcement today that we will probably need another bailout – dont know about you but that doesnt sound like any kind of recovery to me.

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    • “Drop the onerous debt line”? No! It’s not my debt. This is just not good enough. Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, be on the hook for this God damned rich bankers’ debt? Why should they suck the money out of my pay packet and bank account to pay this? It’s a disgrace, and anyone who voted in favour of this legislation has voted in favour of forcing Irish citizens, under threat of incarceration, to pay tens of thousands of millions of Euro that they didn’t borrow and don’t owe. This is highway robbery, and our politicians should be locked up.

      Reply
  • I’ve never voted for Fine Gael; however, it’s utterly delusional to think that any other party, or combination of parties, would have done any better. This deal will make a difference, and has freed up a very significant sum for our bare-bones exchequer. Without it, we would be facing into an even more frightening vista. Personally, I oppose the socialisation of private debt, but the plain truth is that that’s how capitalism works (or doesn’t), right or wrong. It’s great when the good times roll; crap when they don’t.

    Reply
  • So Now that we’re after getting this great deal and saving all this money every year, surely the government don’t need to go ahead with the property tax and water rates right???

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  • Can you spell out what the Promissory Note’s were costing us pre-deal, and what they are costing us now, there has been a complete absence of details on figures, and I don’t see how anyone can say it’s good, or bad with just the ambiguous figure of €20 billion being saved. My guess is that this is not a good deal for Ireland but they are hoping by doing this they will get a better deal with larger legacy debt that still needs to be dealt with, but without knowing any figures, or at least not publishing them all media outlets are saying how FG had a great week, Ireland had a great week, WHY?

    Reply
    • we’ve now bought/sold ourselves completely to the EU project.
      When the vote comes to merge all EU government bond markets together 100% of the Irish population will vote yes.

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    • Good and searching questions. I’ve been unable to get any specifics yesterday. Information may be released on an FoI basis. Are the bonds denominated in euros? What penalty provisions apply? What happens if there is deflation? Presents trends are all deflationary. 8 other basic questions as well but it seems as a mere citizen I cannot be told.

      No matter how the numbers are crunched, there is no 20 billion saving. That is a fiction. If anyone disagrees please set out the computation. Please demonstrate.

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  • This so called ‘deal’ is a sham. It was rushed through before the illegality of the promissory notes could be shown in court. There will be no saving for this country and we are now on the hook to these bankster parasites for the next 40 years. Well done Michael Noonan. You’ll get a nice pat on the back at next year’s Bilderberg conference I’m sure.

    Reply
  • The next election can’t come quickly enough.

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    • Jamie what difference will that make to the self loving greedy politicians ?

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    • Tony I’m hoping that people won’t vote for the usual cretins next time.. Iceland said they weren’t paying a bill that wasn’t theirs, they overthrew a government that wanted to impose decades of austerity and they are now actively pursuing corrupt bankers through the courts.. And they haven’t fallen off the face of the earth, or disappeared into a black-hole..

      Reply
    • The Vikings first introduced currency to Ireland in the 9th century (they used to coat their coins in wax and stick them into their armpits as they went about their business, hence the term “under yer oxter” as the Vikings were also known as “ox-men”) and they can still teach us a lesson when it comes to dealing with thieves.. burn em

      Reply
  • The deal is maybe better than nothing, but making a deal on this now has deprived us of the chance to test the promissory notes in court. That’s one strike against this “deal”.

    Secondly, Noonan has been going on about the cost of his mortgage and how inflation (during the years when inflation was running wild) eroded its cost. What reason does he have to believe that inflation will ever reach those giddy heights again? Keeping inflation low is one of the ECBs sacred cows. Is Noonan thick, or just bad at maths?

    Reply
  • Please explain how mortgaging our country for 25 years in order to pay debts and for an unsustainable civil service is “coming out on top”??
    I am confused?

    Reply
  • Interesting insight by this article. However, the crisis of water charges and property tax has yet to hit the middle class with full force. In this instance, it will be interesting to see whether they still trust the FF or FG parties. My guess is they will change to either Independents, SF or the new parties like People before Profit.

    The older generation are likely to continue voting the two right-wing parties but an increasing number of young voters is likely to push this number down.

    Reply
  • Remember the “citizens of this nation” fought an empire and won.
    RISE…Fight back….THIS IS NOT OUR DEBT

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  • I see the FG cheerleaders, are strutting their stuff on here. They say stupidity begins at the top, it seems rampant in FG?

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  • Time to leave European Union.

    Reply
  • AND FRANCE is getting 6 billion for their unemployed.. are they in good favour or did they all emigrate

    or sarkozy charging legal fees for DSK and their nice frontrunners..
    or taking it in the ass from merkal and the bend overs. enda came away a little shafted but he has a nice pension along with the previous crews.. all is good for some with the hols to the sun or the villa au contraire

    Reply
  • Throw the keys in the letter box and leave this kip once and for all,

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  • Cue those with amnesia…..it’s not our debt, there was no Celtic Tiger, the Irish people didn’t borrow beyond their capacity to repay when the inevitable rainy days arrived, nor did they repeatedly reelect a patently corrupt FF with the explicit instructions to keep the party going……

    Reply
    • Speaking of amnesia Vincent

      Leo Varadkar “Red Cent “….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LTCT7QIeP8

      Eamonn Gilmore “Labour or Frankfurts Way” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LTCT7QIeP8

      jasus,,, i could go on, but I don’t want the good folks of this island puking on their computers………

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    • @joseph- I think all that tells you is that both Leo and Eamon were equally guilty of thinking our destiny was in our own hands. That hasn’t been the case since FF signed on the dotted line…

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    • Equally guilty???????? They are full time politicians! Meant to be seasoned?? And how about that other yoke Noonan???

      Guilty of being lying toe-rags. And only a fellow party member would attempt to try minimize their deceit

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    • Oh, fck off Vincent.

      It was primarily Irish BANKS that borrowed beyond their capacity to repay, but for some reason we’ve all been forced to pick up the can for them.

      Btw, it speaks to how uninspiring that your shower were for the past 20 odd years that it took the other bunch of cretins to shoot themselves in the head for you to get into power. Not that the Blueshirts would have done / are doing anything differently from FF.

      You’re a joke, son.

      Reply
    • @voodoo- that’s very hurtful coming from an intellectual colossus like your good self. Your arguments always evoke in me an image of a 5 year old rolling on the floor pulling a tantrum in the frozen food aisle in A supermarket, arms flailing, legs kicking out. “I won’t pay those debts, I won’t! I won’t! I won’t! I won’t!

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    • Voodoo
      The Central Bank Report showed last week that in the five years to 2007 Irish households borrowed thirty billion Euro for second houses, additions to existing Mortgages , luxury cars and other trappings of a vulgar society and you say it has nothing to do with us.
      Well you’re wrong !

      Reply
    • @mcgee, @voodoo- at any time feel free to share your strategy for compelling those currently keeping our currency afloat to write off debts accumulated by Irish banks, regulated so poorly by an Irish Government, voted in by the Irish people three times. Only thing is- your strategy can’t entail a bankrupt Ireland becoming an international pariah. Sorry to bring realism into this.

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    • Jesus Vincent/Richard… You must be worn out from jumping from one name to another.. FG went into the Dept of Finance before the election to look at the books so knew full well our ‘ destiny wasn’t in our hands’ so that cop out fails straight away.

      Reply
    • jazus vincent you have changed your tune
      and by the way anglo is not the peoples debt
      you know it and the whole of ireland knows it
      the government dont do bailouts for the ordinary man, just the corrupt
      you have gone the way of fianna fail

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    • Frank- I do know it. You’re right. But once the bank guarantee was done and the bailout agreed it was accepted as such. Game over. You’re a good guy but you do confuse arguments over right vs wrong with more important debates like what can be achieved vs what’s impossible. Should we be paying those debts? No. Had we any choice this week? No. Did Noonan do reasonably well in negotiating a good deal in that context? Yes.

      Reply
    • Speak for yourself, I never borrowed beyond my means. I run a successful business and live in a very modest home. Yet I have to pay for the tosses who lost the run of them selves. AIB should of lent me the money all them years ago to start out. Got it from a non irish bank,over 25 years, paid it back in 10. Hard graft pays the bills.

      Reply
    • i dont know how good or bad the deal is only time will tell
      what i do know is that politics in this country is definately in favour of the elites to the extent where they will bail out the corrupt and let the people rot.
      now if you can stomach that kind of politic thats fair enough, i cant
      why cant we get a breakdown of the anglo debts
      whats the big secret that is being covered up

      Reply
    • vincent tell me whats more important than right versus wrong?

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    • Funny that, Vincent, reading your posts makes me think I’m getting a communiqué from the Blueshirt press office: by turns smug, condescending, arrogant and heartless. Funny that.

      It’s a simple question of negotiation 101:

      (a) Ask for more than you think you’ll get – because even if a write down / write off seems unrealistic, if you don’t ask, you won’t get. The Government didn’t even ask, by their own admission.

      (b) Any time you make a concession, extract one in return – don’t consummate FF’s error by turning promissory notes into bonds if you’re not going to get assistance on the principal. And similarly, bondholders in Irish banks didn’t even expect to get paid in full, we don’t appear to be extracting a quid pro quo for paying them, so why haircuts, at the very least, haven’t been imposed is beyond me.

      (c) Don’t underplay your hand – Ireland, a nation of under 4 million is paying between 40% and 60% of the total cost of the EU’s banking bailout, which benefits everyone, especially the Germans, we have a strong moral case; and related

      (d) Make credible threats and be prepared to follow through on them – banks from across the eurozone piled money into Ireland owing to our “neoliberal” / low tax, soft touch regulation ethos. If default on payments to them, it’s going to have a severely detrimental effect on the European banking sector as a whole. We’re sitting on a thermonuclear device, all we need is for Frankfurt to believe that we’re prepared to use it – say burn a few junior bondholders and make the right noises, I’m sure it’d get their attention.

      Instead, the Government has danced to the tune of the ECB, whose interests and ours do not coincide. Abject performance. Btw, Vincent, what exactly have the Government done to tighten banking regulation? Anything?

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    • @dario- couldn’t agree with you more.

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    • @ Frank- Its not a question of importance. Pursuing what’s right is irrelevant if there’s zero chance of being successful.

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    • well then put it another way
      noonan admitted that he didn’t even ask for a writedown thats why he had zero chance
      and in turn we dont know what the consequences would have been if he did ask for writedown
      a government must try and do right by the people no matter what the consequences

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    • Hear hear, Frank!

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    • the real truth behind this is they had a chance to do it right and fair and they took the easy/lazy way out
      fianna fail committed murder but fine gael/labour buried the bodies and history will not be kind to either

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    • well said Voodoo, people easily forget how absolutely useless fg were in opposition. Sure didn’t they want to get rid of Edna 2 years before they got into power, now they try to make out he is some kind of political genius. FF may have ruined this country but I fear thatFG clowns we now have in power will completely kill this country.

      Reply
    • Vincent/Roger.

      This idea you’re trying to push that the whole crisis can be blamed on the Irish people who took out unsustainable mortgages has been bugging me all evening.

      It’s patently bullsh!t.

      Behind every subprime, 100% or oversized mortgage was a manager meeting lending targets for the month, and behind him/her was a trader packaging up these loans into collateralized debt obligations and other instruments for sale to international investors, many of whom didn’t even understand the risk profile of these instruments.

      Insofar as the Irish people lost the plot, they were aided, abetted and facilitated by a financial industry that had lost the plot itself, just the same.

      Utterly disgraceful to try to paint this as a sin of the Irish, for which we must do our penance.

      Reply
    • “insofar as the Irish lost the plot”………..Voodoo you do agree that this was one side of the story! And here was me thinking you’d hold out and never admit it!

      Reply
    • Listen, for the vast majority of the people you’re blaming for this, their only sin was having the optimism to think that the boom would go on for ever and the ambition to want a good home or to expand their businesses.

      Let me be absolutely clear – the end borrowers were NOT the problem. The banks and the financial system used them to anchor complex derivative instruments. That’s where the blame lies, not here or in the continent.

      I’m genuinely disgusted at this line of apologetics.

      Reply
    • GAH

      Banks and financial institutions *BOTH* here and on the continent are where the blame lies.

      Obviously. Or at least, you’d think it would be obvious.

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    • @voodoo- let me be very clear. You and your ilk are the reason why this country is where it is. So dismissive of the principle of personal responsibility. It is your responsibility and your responsibility alone to back back a loan when you take one out. A financial institution is not your mommy. It’s a money grabbing institution with profits only at its heart. Let the buyer beware. To the best of my knowledge bank managers didn’t put any guns to people’s heads and force them to take out loans for cars and second homes. Were the banks guilty of sharp practices? Of course they were. But then we voted in a Government content not to regulate them properly. You though, would prefer to try and blame a small subset ” the bankers” than accept that the country as a whole went a bit nuts. Problem with that is if too many people to subscribe to that illusion there’s every chance we could collectively walk down that road again. I’d prefer if we learned from mistakes.

      Reply
    • Ryan'O 10/02/13 #

      Vincent
      Let me be clear. It was not the people of this country that made this mess! So you can shove your personal responsibility where the sun don’t shine! How did ya like the latest redC ? FG bankers and bondholder party down in support again.

      Reply
    • @Ryan- eloquent and common as always. Looking forward to the next Red C poll. And the election in 2016.

      Reply
    • @ryan- I see from your profile that you’re in Ireland but you “wish elsewhere”. Feel free to leave. There are multiple points of exit. Airports. Sea ports. I’ll build you a Currach. As long as you promise not to come back in it.

      Reply
    • Ryan'O 10/02/13 #

      Flattered you took the time to stalk me :) visa pending so shove that in your pipe and shmoke it.

      Would the last person leaving please turn off the lights in this FG skip. :)

      Reply
    • we seem to be making the same mistake here over and over again
      the debts of anglo irish bank are NOT and I have to reiterate NOT the debts of the ordinary people
      let us see the books as to who were the debtors
      why is this not information not been made public
      surely if i am paying back a loan id want to know why and what the money was spent on
      this is the real lie and this is why the government should be made accountable
      covering up for the elites AGAIN!

      Reply
    • Oh, it couldn’t be clearer, Vincent. Fine Gael is more concerned with banks than with people, and will stoop to any depth of apologetics to try to apportion blame away from where it truly belongs.

      “Personal responsibility”, is it? How’s about some institutional responsibility and all? And how’s about investors and bondholders being held to a similar standard of “personal responsibility” – they made bad investments, they should pay the cost.

      You say: “[banks are] a money grabbing institution with profits only at its heart. Let the buyer beware.” as if there’s nothing wrong with that, but then in the next breath blame the government (i.e. Fianna Fáil) for failing to regulate them? Pretty confused logic there, my son.

      The banks and their economist/media cheerleaders set up a situation were you felt like a fool for not buying property, even if you knew that you didn’t have the means – I was there, and I was one of those who “didn’t know what a tracker mortgage is”, but I was lucky enough to sit on the sidelines.

      But there’s no way I’d blame anyone for getting caught up in the hysteria, and I’d especially not blame anyone who paid over the odds for a family home because the market had become so overheated.

      The reason, again, that the market became overheated was nothing to do with Irish people, and everything to do with the fact that financial institutions outside this country started flooding it with money, because they believed that they’d found a way of making the risk in lending disappear, through spreading their investments as broadly as possible – that’s what CDOs etc. are about.

      Even in terms of blame, while the Irish banking sector is clearly rotten, Irish banks were just the delivery mechanism for this flood of foreign capital. In fact, often the mortgages and personal loans had been repackaged and marked for sale on before they were even signed – it was Irish bank manager’s job to find someone to sign up. It’s just that simple. QED.

      I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am still disgusted that you’ll so brazenly put the interests of banks and investors over the interests of the Irish people. Fcking Blueshirts.

      Reply
    • Ryan'O 10/02/13 #

      Stinking, lying, treacherous blue shirts. Sold the country without blinking an eye. Late night dodgy dealings converting illegal notes into sovereign debt so the people and not the banks pay.

      History will define FG as the worse political party to ever have power and the disastrous consequents of their actions will define the bleak future of generations to come.

      Reply
    • @voodoo- it’s not at all confusing unless you’re not that bright. Banks are like dogs. They can bite you. So they they should have been muzzled. And they weren’t. And that was FF’s fault. Would you like me to explain this using Sock Puppets? Would that be simpler? I see the media were also culpable now? Anyone but the person who makes the decision to take a loan and sign the form, eh? Clown.

      Reply
    • @ Ryan- you not gone yet?

      Reply
    • Spot on
      Voodoo, Frank, Ryan and Joseph

      Reply
    • Yes Vincent, “they should have been muzzled”. But they weren’t. And now you’re trying to blame the people they’ve bitten for having been bitten.

      That patrician arrogance doesn’t much become you, nor your party. But, then again, I wouldn’t expect anything better.

      Reply
  • C’mon the Blueshirts!

    Reply
  • MrKnow 09/02/13 #

    default on the payments and get out of the bulls#%t that is the European project. We need to realise that the big guns in Europe will eat Ireland for breakfast.

    Reply
  • The deal was the best we could get under difficult circumstances. Most people with a modicum of intelligence recognise this. Shinners do not have a modicum of intelligence so the entire business is way beyond their comprehension.

    Reply
  • I think Enda has done very well getting this deal. Those of you who are jumping back in the FF bandwagon just remember it was those men that saddled us with this debt. Just remember that!

    Reply
  • M J W 09/02/13 #

    FG will come out on top because that German Woman looks like a busty blond with no moustache,but then again Mayo Men will settle for any hairy bitch who will start with an air kiss,and you have to consider the poor German Bitch hasen’t had much sleep?

    Reply

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