Just shows the pointlessness of it all when we haven’t been able to enforce the laws that all already in existence to protect children from such abuse.

Les your fired

Do u not work with children?

No i do not. Im a community development worker. Who sees the community he works in get destroyed by the down right badness of some young people.

Add no clothes, no running water, no toilet facilities, 4 days to go to hospital. Wow!! Would love to see the review of that Ritz on trip advisor.

http://www.tripadvisor.ie/Hotel_Review-g503701-d735081-Reviews-or7-Anand_Ritz-Matheran_Maharashtra.html

@Jimmy. Have you got any feasible alternative suggestions?

Jimmy,
thing is we don’t live in South America, Ireland has professed to ; caring for the children, the sick and the poor!
God’s love and all that crap !! such an unforgiving society.
If offender are re abilitated , provided with programs in which they learn some thing of the possibilities of a change of life style , that running with the gang is not the only life ahead of them, provide them with choice ?
there needs to be a strict justice system that works to prevent re offending.
and good Boot Camps in the middle of no where where they stay until the emotions and addiction are in check and reality sets in ie; I’m here and behaving badly just keeps me here longer, if I want get out its up to me, (them )

Why so you think someone gets a suspended sentence?

Last week a woman was convicted of bottling someone causing serious injury. She got 4 years some of it suspended. She had 64 previous convictions one of which was for murder in 2005. She should not have been on the streets. The crime would not have happened. The barrister would not have to be paid. Again!!

My question was about why judges give suspended sentences and this does not answer that.

That’s absolute utter crap.

Barristers do not defend people for 2k a day – absolute nonsense.

You don’t know the first thing about free legal aid.

Wrong !!

What’s wrong?

The mentality of some people is unbelievable.

The report begs to differ

Yes Felix. The mentality of some people who piss all over society and seek protection from it is utterly astounding. I completely agree. the mentality of some people is indeed astounding.

Oh yes, I have a blocked toilet, dirty sheets, ripped torn prison clothes, am locked up all day after having my clothes cut off, have resorted to talking to myself out of loneliness, have to ring a bell to get my needs attended to and am often ignored. Add to that being grabbed by the throat, intimidated and deprived of the basic comfort of a family visit. or phone call……sounds like a real holiday!!

Like a bad wet week in a caravan, you won’t go back and take your business elsewhere.

There not model citizens. However they are certainly children. It shouldnt be a holiday camp by no means… but it should meet basic human standards ie broken windows and filthy conditions.

The windows or the furniture didn’t break themselves.

Well said

So, it’s alright to bully and brutalise a child and keep him locked up for 23 or 24 hours a day? Two wrongs don’t make a right!

Load if bull, these juveniles are delinquents. Imprisonment is a last resort for judges when it comes to juveniles. Lets Molly coddle these juveniles some more and watch them turn into the next gang land leaders. We need to get tougher on crime not softer

Sigh. Do you know what happens when a State punishes someone already at risk of becoming a long-term criminal in this manner? Do you think they bow down before the State and say I’m sorry, I won’t do it again? Or do you think they begin to resent authority even more and become more likely to rebel?

sigh all you want. i see some of the dirtbags around where i live, they’re bad, not let down by society, jus bad. robbing, vandalising, the lot. they’ll rob your house and laugh at you and the guards afterwards.
wake up, all the understand is punishment, and the sooner a proper deterant comes in the better because until then, they won’t change

Do you agree with some of more vengeful elements of Sharia law then Wes?

More hugs Johnny, that will do it.

big difference between vengeance and effective deterrents.
but i would agree with some elements, for example paedophiles and child murderers etc should be put to death, they can’t be “fixed”.
anyone in the likes of st.pats aren’t there for nothing, if they want to be anti-social and terrorise people then they should live with the consequences, which aren’t anywhere near severe enough in my opinion

Johnny now your just getting ridiculous, we need change, we’re not suggesting public stoning. Clearly the present system isn’t working, a softer approach isn’t the option, restorative justice is failing. Trust me, if you do harder time you won’t do the crime, we all know what prisons are like now, tv/play stations in rooms, Molly coddled by staff etc,,,

I know how to sort all this rubbish out….. The naughty step..!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1384308/Norways-controversial-cushy-prison-experiment–catch-UK.html

A few Daily Mail allies here I imagine so here’s something that may be of interest to you.

“wake up, all the understand is punishment”

“Clearly the present system isn’t working, a softer approach isn’t the option”

“More hugs Johnny, that will do it.”

It seems it might, Ronan.

Read lads. Maybe think a bit. Your male instinct isn’t always right.

i don’t need to read anything to tell me what to think.
we’ll agree to disagree jonny, i just hope you’re never in charge!
if you don’t realise some people are just plain bad then i pity you.

I’d go toerag in the morning, robbing cars, stabbing people and generally terrorising my neighbourhood for a six month stint in there. Where do I sign up?

Whether or not some people “are just plain bad” is an ongoing debate that is not too likely to reach a conclusion anytime soon. I’m open to new information and I try not to commit to any side of a debate if I’m not entirely sure I can stand by it. Obviously this is different for you so I’ll take you up on your offer to agree to disagree.

I would suggest that perhaps you should review your thoughts on reading, however. Of course, if it “tells” you to think a certain way, then maybe not, though I didn’t suggest that.

Have a good life, man.

Paid Officers of the State carried out Child Abuse while being paid by the State and wearing a State uniform-

Everyone is entitled to their basic human rights-

Like if you are against Child Abuse taking place against anyone at any time.

Dislike if you support Child Abuse in State Institutions-

Mmmmmm. Can all civilised people not just get together and agree that the Daily Mail is a purveyor of crap and consign the paper, it’s APP and all its journalists to history. Jonny, the very fact that you referenced it means you’re wrong in what you say. And an Anglophile.

totally agree killian which is why i didn’t even open the links!

No death penalty, period. Leave that in Texas, along with all the other bad ideas that fuel the cycle of creating more isolated, tortured killers and lazy, hot-headed, ambulence-chasing reactions like this.

Killian, I don’t read the Daily Mail. I Googled reoffending rates and recidivism and came across the article. I felt that as the Daily Mail is a conservative, right-wing, individualist type paper that generally favours the status-quo, it emphasised that my line of thought is not just supported by those that many would suspect.

That I am automatically wrong and an Anglophile is quite the hasty judgement and doesn’t quite offer a positive reflection of yourself.

Here’s something that might be more palatable to your preconceived notions of life: http://www3.unil.ch/wpmu/space/publications/recidivism-studies/

I notice it only tells the bad part of the report here just finished reading the full report and there seems to be a lot of positive points left out but we all positive stories don’t make news

The people used in that Norway study weren’t selected at random. Joe o Reilly is a murderer but is unlikely to reoffend, we have a prison like that in the study, its called shelton abbey and most of its inmates don’t reoffend. It’s just the type of criminal that’s put in it. The juveniles are st pats are head bangers and would not benefit from being allowed the use of a sun bed etc…

In in reply to one of the previous comments. Many if not most of these “youngsters” have already been through the children’s court several times and have been through Oberstown as well. So that the thought that imprisoning these teenagers in St Pats will skewed their moral compass is ludicrous. And as for the use of force to restrain some of the more violent offenders it is needed. St Patricks has the highest assault ratio Offender on Offender of any of the Irish prisons and as such certain measures are necessary to maintain order. And remember many of these “teenagers” are as big and strong as any fully grown adult man. And to put on the record I do not work in St Pats.

Just look at the tough justice system in the US and their low crime rates and history of successful rehabilitation. Aren’t their prisons almost empty?

Just read the report. Totally shocking! The idea of a child sitting in a cell for 23 hours and having to resort to talking to himself does not paint a pretty picture. Another child was put into a cell where the bedclothes weren’t even changed after the last occupant, the toilet was blocked and no running water. When the inspector pointed out the dirty conditions of the sheets, they weren’t changed for another four days!! One boy who was locked up was living in fear and had an injury to his eye after, supposedly, falling out of bed. He was afraid of the other prisoners and the staff. Inmates who were deemed to be in need of transfer to an Accident and Emergency Dept. in hospital were often left up to 48 hours before been transported. These were people who had injuries such as a fractured jaw, head injuries or ingestion of a foreign body so any delay could have been a major risk to health. The whole report portrays a situation that seems more like something out of a Dicken’s novel. The culture of inhumanity and abuse is hard to credit. It seems we have not moved on at all from systems of institutional abuse, bullying and brutal treatment of vulnerable individuals. With this sort of culture, you’d question how, in the present system, the Children’s Referendum will make a damned bit of difference to these children and young adults who are locked away from public view.

You should read the report.

Wonder about them all you want, and the green thumbs too. The issue at hand is human rights and whether we expect our institutions to carry them out.

But hey, maybe we should work out some kind of special designation for ‘shitheads’ that allows us to treat them like they aren’t human. Sure what are the chances of someone who didn’t do anything worthy of the designation being punished? That never happens…

yes Ger I have and my family , not in Ireland but in Oz,! violence is violence no matter where it happens.
did i feel loving and warm and want to give the perb., a hug !!
hell no !!!
I also believe in community intervention early on, I believe in Boot Camps for young offenders, and i don’t believe in leaving the parents out of the issue, parents have to take part in rehab., too!

There’s a world of difference between “what are ya in for?” Pregnancy. And what are ya in for? Drug dealing, aggravated assault, carrying a weapon, GBH, and the rest. These are not first offenders, these are career criminals already well down that path. Pity about them

My point was that public opinion isn’t always the best barometer for determining what the appropriate course of action is. Would you seriously argue with UN findings that basic human rights in Irish prisons are regularly ignored? And don’t just say that ‘they deserve it so it makes sense’.. that’s a subjective opinion, not an objective argument.

The case is being made from a human rights point of view and that carries no weight with me considering who we’re talking about. I live near areas blighted by their antisocial behaviour so basically tough, you don’t like prison? Well you’re not supposed to. It’s ineffective and wasteful but from the standpoint of these ‘victims of the system’ I find it hard to sympathise. I agree we should be intervening earlier and smarter and if that involves getting the Norwegians to run it then go for it but the general thrust of the report was a tutting exercise, well isn’t it shocking and all that, and your comparison to laundries was of a similar tone. Well, sorry, but I’ll save my sympathies for the real victims.

My point was directed towards the children currently incarcerated there. Yes 18 is legally an adult and I completely agree with you that there comes a point where these young people can choose to try and go down a different path. But when the odds are stacked so firmly against you, it gets to be a bit difficult don’t you think? You’re a product of your environment. Look I’ve heard that argument a million times ‘I grew up in that area I turned out fine blah blah blah’. It’s not good enough, not in the slightest. It takes a smug view of the whole thing that makes me very uncomfortable.

Maylena, You are very quick to dismiss those that grew up in those same areas and turned out well because it dosen’t suit your view of the world. Let me ask you this. If one of those “Children” mugged your mother, burgled your home or sexually assaulted you or another member of your family. Would you shed a tear over them if they were sent to St Pats?
Instead would your time and the time of the rest of the Liberal left not be better spent fighting for the rights of their victims. Is there an esteemed Judge looking into the rights of the victims of crime? I think not. So before you get all teary eyed about the conditions of these young criminals spare a thought for those that now live in fear because of them.

God this is truly sickening.

Why is it that people like Mick Jordan think that treating prisoners humanely and “the rights of the victims” are mutually exclusive? Since when do we have to choose between the two? It is such uneducated thinking it beggars belief.

And exactly what “rights of the victim” are you referring to? What rights are currently being infringed? The convicted person is St. Pats – by definition the justice system has worked in those cases. In other words the victim’s rights (to have the offence investigated and the perpetrator prosecuted) have been vindicated.

It really is the worst sort of vindictive, bitter, backwards thinking. Any sort of mistreatment is justified because…”Ah well sure they’re just knackers aren’t they?”

Ireland really has no chance.

have you heard the expression : There but for the grace !!! and so on.
so much depends on the parents you are awarded at the time of birth. so much depends on the available education,
work ethics in the family ?
but ; ‘ be it on your own head’ too simple really .
violence is expected in many communities and is seen as a right of passage also.
I have no real insight in to how to re educate people who have nothing to loose , but to do ‘nothing’ would be unforgivable .
When you don’t know what to do, Do some thing.

Or it could make them think the world owes them something?
Or, more likely, it will result in pent up anger being released on more victims.

Any proof or stats to back that claim up?

@Mart – I didn’t make any claims; I made some suggestions.

Sorry Lt. That comment was meant for Shane =)

Could’nt be bothered answering back to those comments

No? Well that’s me convinced then!

I think the opposite would apply. I think if i was locked up 23 hours a day and treated like dirt,I’d be determined to get my revenge when I got out. I can’t imagine being inspired to change into a model citizen after being treated like an animal.

no it won’t shane, it makes them hate society even more, it makes them angry! it makes them feel worthless and without any value to society, so why would they change ? if society says, your a worthless shit ! then they will want to show that same society how much they can be anti that society.!!
they already have a community of their own that accepts them as they are.
so why should they change.

Well said

Totally agree- We are meant to cherish all the children of the State equally-
Do we want to ‘cover-up’ what happens in these institutions? The report reads like something from a Gulag history book-
We like to call ourselves modern!
The abuse of children must end-

Totally agree I’m absolutely gob smacked with some of the comments in here tonight

Dead right Jeff. It’s shocking that people think it’s ok for abuse to take place in state institutions just because the victims aren’t what they consider to be role models. Typical Ireland. It’s depressing.

they arent in there 4 helping old ladies cross the road.. stop doing the crime and you can sleep in your own bed 2nyte.. it shouldnt b treated like a hotel 4 them..

Yup. Scary comments indeed. Sounds very much like how people spoke about the children sent to institutional schools in the 50s. We who are so sure we would have done better back then, reveal ourselves in how we speak now.

All rights bring with them responsibilities. If you want human rights you should respect your fellow man. Should you elect not to, you forego the rights afforded to those who do. Its bleeding hearts like you who exhibit the greatest hypocrisy. If you were the victim….

Jeff, your post is the most sensible thing I’ve read so far. It seems that collective wisdom is a seriously unreliable thing when it comes to human rights, unfortunately.

well said Jeff,
we need to look at some of the Northern Euro model’s of crime intervention.
please tell me that Ireland will never stand by and know there is yet another case of violence against youth.
I am not a bleeding heart!! and I do believe in justice for the victim.
but i also believe in looking at the culture which creates the violence.

Yes I believe Norway are currently in the process of rehabilitating Anders Brevik

Dead right, abuse is abuse whether the person is sitting at home minding his own business or gets assaulted walking home at night, or gets their car burnt out. Abuse is terrible, regardless of the victim’s circumstances.

What about the rights of their victims. Who are the victims of their crimes. Im sorry but softly softly won’t do it anymore. I grew up in a very very tough environment & yes i was the proverbial little b****x as a lad. But getting a few slaps from a couple of tough gardai did me no harm. Where Im from , they Don’t respect the gardai…no one. They get nicked these days then they go to the ritz bloody Carlton and they know it. So where’s the deterant? softly softly my a***

Idiotic argument. I turned out ok therefore its ok to hit kids and mistreat them in prison.

Id also have to say that anyone who has those views did not turn out ok – indeed it did do you a great deal of harm.

Sorry! I red thumbed you by accident. All children in the state need to be protected. Many young offenders come from a position of vunerability and the state is further compounding the problem by not doing what it can to protect children in it’s care. Punishment can take many forms- what is coming out in this report is neither appropriate nor productive for society or the individuals.

Liberal crap.

Killian, what would you suggest we do with the inmates is st pats? IMO if you treat people like dirt, they will act up and begin to resent authority even further. I thought prisons were about rehabilitation after all. They should try a carrot and stick approach with these lads.

A healthy balance between punishment and rehabilitation.

You really haven’t got a clue. Wait till one of there children breaks your face when he hits you with his bottle of bud when he is robbing your wallet.

Fired for what? The broken windows they break so they can move drugs etc during the night or the closed yard because they get their friends and families to throw so much drugs in or the barring from visits because the last time you snogged your mother to get drugs or the filthy cells because you smeared excrement on the wall in protest at being deprived visits or the forced removal of clothes because you are being placed in a padded cell for your own safety after taking something and trashing your cell and threatening to kill yourself or anyone you get your hands on. Yeah they’ll probably fire someone who works there

No new management have been appointed and all yards are now open raining drug in there

Well people who bully and intimidate prisoners and other prison officers alike should definitely find an area of work more suited to their “talents.” The staff member who said to the inspector that he’d get the right answers if he asked the right questions sort of says it all!

First of all there are no 16 year olds in pats since the 1st of may this year. As for clothes being ripped off if a prisoner is being violent and no co- operative it sometimes has to happen but this has also stopped they are no longer striped when put into a secure cell only their shoes and socks

First of all there are no 16 year olds in st pats that stopped in may and some times it is necessary to strip prisoners for their own safety and if they don’t comply it’s the management that give the order to cut the clothes off them. this is seldom done as most prisoners do as they are asked only when they are violent and noncompliant is when this would happen. The reason most would go to the spl Obs cell are for attacking either other prisoners or staff I think a few hours there to cool down wont do them any harm

Well said, Maylena!

totally agree, well said Maylena

agree ! people need to be more aware of how others live.

There are dozens of programes available to these offenders as well as full time education. But as the old adage goes “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”. For many of these guys prison is a mark of respect not something to be ashamed of. As one previous guest of St Patricks said to me. “I can make more money in a few weeks selling gear (Heroin) than you can in a year working so why would I want to go straight”. So If you can think of some way of making them Rehabilitate I would love to know.

Ah Mick – I see.

So, if I understand your argument, rehabilitating young offenders is difficult – therefore its perfectly ok for the prison system to treat them worse than any of us would treat our family pets?

I despair for Irish society – I truly do.