If you apply for a Job teaching in an Irish speaking school it would be useful if you could teach through Irish, yes? As a student you will soon learn that what differentiates when applying for a job is what more you can offer than the next guy, yet this doesn’t apply here! An allowance must be paid. Now, if you get in and do a great job you should then be in line for a pay increase, promotion? Why can’t there be teacher grades, based on education standard, performance review etc? Civil Service, Gards, Army, Fire Service all have Grades, why not teachers then we could see the guys going the extra mile. We all know some brilliant inspirational teachers but by god we have all had complete wasters too, and teachers its because most of us can remember the guy who got detached and uninterested whilst his pay steadily increased is why so many people seem to have a bug bear about teaching !

This is not true,. Additional payments have been suspended for new entrants while a review is conducted over the next month or so. Some of these additional payments will be retained, some may be abolished and some may be reduced. Most new teaches won’t have a post grad I would guess so saying they’re having their salary cut by 5000 is nonsense.

Reg the majority of primary teachers coming out now are through the postgrad route.

A new teacher gets €27,814 basic pay and from today get no allowances. What’s your point?

Interesting to note the Minister Quinn’s love affair with the Finnish education system, a system which requires teachers to hold a Masters. Since the Budget the allowance for a Masters is gone and now other allowances are attacked. Simply put, as these allowances are paid to all teachers they are regarded as basic pay. I would wonder if as such this is a breach of the Croke Park agreement on the part of the government. Minister Howlin’s defence this morning was so weak as to suggest there is no plan beyond hitting the weakest public servants who have no voice and, it seems now, no future as professionals.

But high pay for teachers does not necessarily guarantee good quality teaching. Newly qualified teachers should be paid like any other graduates. No one should have a starting salary or over, say, €27k until they have shown themselves to be capable of doing the job. A postgraduate diploma is a job requirement – why should someone get paid extra for having a required qualification? Moving up pay grades should be based on the quality of teaching, not time served. Otherwise why would anyone bother even trying? I’ve worked with some excellent teachers. It’s very disheartening to see them unrecognised for their work when others coasting along get paid the same.

And the state will pay you handsomely for your effort for the rest of your working life as a teacher. Even if they halved the additional pay for a masters (which I doubt) it would still be a good investment.

Oh dear, “threw postgrad study”?!

I typed that on a busy luas on my phone this morning and apologise for my error. I assume it detracts completely from my argument…it’s this level of pedantic mockery which makes expressing opinions impossible.

Those who can, do.

Those who can’t, teach.

Totally agree,overpaid muppets

I am sick to the teeth of the people this government seeks to protect, I voted for the other lot and I do not think they would have let this go on, the people who are suffering are the young, the old and the infirm and it has to stop.

No, it’s time to say teachers have a sweet number, work half days, for half a year, teach people under 7 what colours are, stop taking the pîss with pay!

I have no vested interest but I will say this. Before everyone bashes teachers think about the principles behind these “cuts”.
They were cut before (not after) the review and without warning or consultation
They are yet another attack on those trying to get started in this Country
Howlin, the creep, says it won’t effect many people to begin with……clearly the few people it does effect are not very relevant then.

So instead of taking opportunities to bash others in society we should be standing together against this dictatorship.

…..oh and BTW I wouldn’t take on the job of teacher if I had 6 months holidays.

All teachers wages should be cut by at least 30%.

Cut politicians allowances first

what an Nqt? A Non Qualified Teacher? yeah there is loads of people teaching maths that dont even have a maths or science degree. and quite a few teaching with no H.Dip .

I agree that teachers do great work. That doesn’t change the fact that the education payroll bill is overinflated, unsustainable and out of step with teaching pay rates in almost every other European country. Expecting pubic pay rates to be reduced to sensible levels is not teacher-bashing.

During the boom, most private sector workers did not get rich. Hate to break it to you.

Have to agree with Tom. The media created the myth of the high flying private sector exec. Very few of us fit into that template. Look at the figures from the CSO for private sector earnings and see where the average Joe and Jane went. The Celtic Tiger was just a veneer, highly polished and gilded. All it did was serve to make us greedy and totally unrealistic. I got news for the Public Sector, the productive sector are running out of money to prop up you guys. I think if we had our say, we would take service losses over tax hikes.

Look
I am talking about teachers, nurses, garda, fire fighters and ambulance.
Did you in the private sector change anybodies lives daily?
Do you want your children to have a decent education?
Do you risk being assaulted every time you go to work? Does that risk everyday grow because of government cut backs?
Poor little private sector didums who got greedy and unrealistic.
Are you going to look after the most vulnerable in society when there are ‘take service losses?’ Are you?

@Dave, The private sector, cotton balled and all as we are, pay the bulk of the taxes that cover these allowances and the multitude of other perks enjoyed by those in the Public Sector. Some allowances are deserved, but most are not acceptable in our current circumstances.

The Public Sector live and work in a monopolised world. Those of us working quietly away to pay for your allowances and debatable administrative overheads, took the easy option on pay cuts. We cut the fat, closed non productive operations and let go surplus staff. Most are now covering the workload of others. So, the game is to cut overheads to cut costs and stay in business.

The Private Sector Payroll Costs have been savaged. Just look at the dole queues, what percentage of these newly unemployed people come from the public vs. private sectors. Maybe we should share the pain equally? Let us make surplus teachers redundant, same for Gards, Nurses, Doctors and the multitudes of admin staff. Cut staff numbers, or cut payroll costs. But you must continue to deliver the services your customers demand, or allow for competition.

There are two cost elements, payroll and other. If services are to be cut, then the non payroll element of that service should go out to tender to an alternative service provider. I came through a system with 30-40 kids per class, my children would survive if such ratios were to return.

Cormac
You have clearly no idea what the front line staff of the health or education or law enforcement put up with on a daily basis.
No use arguing with you because you cant see past your own nose.
What do you think you would do if one of your kids had any special needs.
Or got sick.
Or was a victim of crime
Come back to me then with your ‘sharing the pain’ shite

@Dave, wake up and smell the grass, or the roses. We live in the real world. You have obviously become a victim of your job working as you appear to, within an institution. Frontline services are delivered by a relatively small section of the Public Service. There are a few lost souls like the Garda, the nurses and the like who actually do valuable work and contribute to the good and wellbeing of this country. However, for every good apple at the frontline, there is at least one bad apple further up the line, who makes your life a misery with their incompetence. Of course I appreciate the good apples in the services and of course life would be crap without them, but their good work doesn’t excuse the fact that there are better ways of delivering the service, with a lot less clutter in the offices above you. I’ve said it before on The Journal, those in the public sector who do, had better turn on those in the public sector who don’t, because when it comes to cuts, the way your unions have the system set up, those who deliver share the same cuts as those who don’t deliver. Get real, we can’t afford to keep the whole creaking ship afloat.

Cormac,
I am a nurse and i do work in the front line. I run the risk of physical injury on a daily basis just to look after the people that need looking after.
I am also the parent of young children and come from a long line of teachers.
I know the public service is stacked with some deeply strange and incompetent people, but they are not the front line people who are being penalised for having extra qualifications to do their job.

@ Roger. I would give you a week and see how you would find teaching. Then you might not be so quick to judge. As cuts continue the job gets harder. When I got my mortgage and had to get life insurance I discovered that teaching was classified in the top category for stress. I think that might actually give you a clue. I didn’t pick teaching because of the holidays. I did because I want to make a difference. The attitude of people like you gets so tiresome. Enough said.

Don’t forget the short days, big pay and all the mid terms. Ur not going to make a difference by being a teacher. The irish curriculum is a joke.

Niamh, could we have the trial week in June, July and August? Or, maybe Easter or around Christmas? Look, agreed teaching is tough. Educating our young is massive responsibility and I am sure it is genuinely very challenging as anyone with even a couple of kids will understand. But WHY do teachers think that their Jobs are so hard that those of us in the private sector couldn’t possibly relate? It’s like your job is so stressful you need 3 months off to recover? Why 3 months? Well ,In Ireland that’s the legacy of rural Ireland ,when kids were needed to bring in the harvest.
The vast majority of us in the private sector have taken very considerable pay cuts or indeed 450,000 people have NO job. Now compare your stress levels of an allowance cut to that of having your Job cut, then thinking can I pay a mortgage, car, bill while living on the dole. The Teachers union are intransigent and outmoded and as far as I can see damage a very noble profession by protecting the old guard within their ranks. What other union would allow so many young teachers stay temps for so long in many cases, why would the union accept guys going into politics for decades and holding their jobs? These unions haven’t one ounce of credibility outside of their own ranks

Teaching is tough, that’s why it’s only 22 hours a week.

@Tensing Norgay

The OECD reports into Irish education did not criticise the Irish holiday system. In fact, they noted that despite the longer holidays, Irish teachers spend the longest time in the classroom per year. In fact, Irish teachers teach over 180m hours a year more than our European counterparts. The holiday argument is somewhat facile. If you want to extend the school year, then fine. But only hire more teachers and allow Irish teachers to teach less classes and spend more time doing other facets of the job more efficiently such as correcting, planning etc…….

Regarding the facile and tiresome comparisons between the public and private sector, it should be noted that the average pay cut for those still working in the private sector is 6%. This is compared to 17% in the public sector. You are correct in stating that there have been more job losses in the private sector but I notice that you fail to acknowledge that pay cuts in the public sector have been comparitively larger than in the private. Finally, if allowances are cut across the board, it should be noted that this will push teachers towards a 25% pay cut since Sept. 2008. I know that this will push many teachers towards being unable to afford their mortgages and bills. Contrary to popular belief, teachers live in the same world as everybody else and therefore have been subject to many cuts and all the tax increases that other workers have felt.

@ Mark, Just wondering when you got to use the words “facile” and “tiresome” in your riposte if you were curling your eyebrow in indignation? Anyway, I hope your students enjoy your pomposity. Personally,…. Anyway, you are quite obviously well-rehearsed, through necessity I suggest in the defence of your protected status However, it amazes me how you guys selectively pick OECD figures that suit. Of course, no mention of our continued fall in the OECD rankings for reading, maths and Science. Oh sorry, that has nothing to do with teachers, it is all societal, infrastructural, nutritional factors that have led to this situation, did I miss anything? Consult the defence manual there Mark. Also, the OECD tells us that Irish teachers are the second highest paid secondary teachers in the OECD and the third highest in primary education despite our country being insolvent. We are told that education is being badly hit by the austerity program yet 80% of the education budget goes on wages that can’t be touched under croke park, so all of the cuts have to come out of the remaining 20% ,No wonder primary schools are falling down around our ears. Then the same unions will tell us how this that and the other is affecting educational outcomes. And we all know the collapse wasn’t your fault, it wasn’t mine either, but what do you care. In terms of your puerile interpretation of the public versus private pay cuts, I see that you are an apples and oranges man. Fact is that all those that lost their jobs over the last four years should be included in the average pay cuts in the private sector or could you tell me how you would interpret earning a wage one week to be on the dole the next? That’s of course if you can get the dole, to my non teacher little brain, it’s a very severe pay cut. We wont even talk about the pesnions or lumps sum paid to you guys om retirement,people are depressed enough . I bet you even think that you will have paid in enough to cover you pension and lump sum when you retire ;-) Look Mark, just clear up some stuff for all us clowns that don’t understand the rigours of a 20 hour week.
What is your position on having 3 month holidays for summer?
Why are (full time) teachers paid extra to correct state exams when they are on Holidays?
Are there teachers in the system without H Dips ?
Has anyone every failed a HDip ?
Should we have non maths graduates teaching maths?
What is the annual tax take form Grinds that no one seems to give?
Finally , of the 6 qestions posed , which four do you just might be effecting our international rankings?

@ Tensing Norgay
The first thing I would say is that no, I was not curling my eyebrow in indignation. If I came across as pompous, then I sincerely apologise. It most certainly was not my intention. I was merely expressing my frustration at having to have the same artificial argument about public v private sector and school holidays. However, I am glad to see that you raise some very valid and interesting points which are very much to the fore of what we actually need to be talking about. I won’t agree with everything you say, but then it wouldn’t be a healthy debate if I did. I would however caution against personal insults or making assumptions about one’s personality or professional conduct as you have done. If we are to have a healthy and proper debate which we (hopefully) can both learn from, then it is best to do so in a way that critiques the argument and not the person.
I would consider myself well versed, but most certainly not an expert. It is not through the necessity of having to defend myself or my “protected position”, but through the necessity of staying in touch with developments in my profession. So in relation to the OECD reports on Irish education, you correctly point out drops in rankings. However, there was one reason which was not put forth in this argument. It would seem that our initial position in the PISA rankings was artificial. The reason for this is that prior to the last PISA report, Irish schools chose their best students to be assessed. In the last PISA assessment, the students had to be chosen at random. This would obviously lead to a drop in the scores. It was the better method and was perhaps more reflective of our real standing. Thus, the drop was artificial as our initial standing was artificial. You correctly, albeit it flippantly, point out societal change, infrastructure etc….. It would be wrong to ignore these factors. Education is about people and people respond to environment. If the environment is not correct, then educational outcomes are not maximised.
Irish teachers were the second highest paid teachers in the OECD. However, and not coincidentally, Ireland is also the second most expensive country in the OECD. It was not just in teaching that wages rose. Wages rose across Ireland in most sectors. Wages have also fallen, and not in line with inflation either.
The OECD also tells us that Ireland as a country invests the second least amount of money in terms of GDP in education in the OECD. Ireland has the second largest class sizes and class sizes are 20% larger than the OECD average. Your statistic regarding 80% of the education budget being spent on wages is in line with 2008 figures but not 2012. After the pay cuts since September 2008, it is estimated (because the Dept. Finance haven’t released their figures) that 65% of the DES budget is spent on wages. This is not unusual in most jobs. Wages and labour are usually the highest cost in any organisation. The OECD also tells us that Irish teachers teach 180 hours a year more than our counterparts. It actually states that Irish teachers should probably teach less and have more time in the year for Continuous Professional Development, planning, corrections and consultation. The government chose to ignore this advice in 2006 when there was ample opportunity implement these recommendations.
Coming back to the public v private debate. I have said many times on this forum that I believe this divide to be a creation of government and employers groups in order to drive down wages, conditions and entitlements of workers across both sectors. We are seeing a similar strategy employed by the current Tory government in the UK. It is a simple divide and conquer strategy, one which has worked a treat, as all you have to do is look at forums such as this, and see workers who have had their conditions and living standards diminished while those who caused this mess get richer, tear the head off one another. You must remember that society is not made up of public sector and private sector groups or families. We all live in this same society. I have family members, who work in both the public and private sector, and here is one irrefutable fact; none of us have got any richer. We have all seen our pay packets shrink dramatically. In fact, there were 3 job losses in my family; 2 in the private sector and 1 in the public sector. Thankfully, all have managed to regain employment.
Regarding pensions. I would ask you to read the Trident Report. Here is a link to it. You can make up your own mind on it if you so wish. http://www.into.ie/pensions/PensionDownloads/Pensions_TridentReport.pdf
I never referred to anybody as clowns and the quote of “the rigour of a 20 hour week” is completely lacking in understanding of the work teachers do. My average day starts in work at 8am and finishes at 5pm. I am certainly not unique in this regard. I would like to point out that I have worked in the private sector, in the service industry and in construction and I am honestly more tired and challenged by my work in education but I also enjoy it more. I completely understand the rigours of a day’s work.
You asked me 6 questions so I will respond to them directly.
What is your position on having 3 month holidays for summer? I generally don’t have the three months off but I enjoy my holidays. It was something I knew about when I entered the profession it certainly attracted me to it. Is there any link to be made between teachers having 3 months holidays and educational outcomes? It doesn’t seem so, so I don’t see it to be a problem. If you reduced class contact time and extended the school year accordingly, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. That is my personal opinion.
Why are (full time) teachers paid extra to correct state exams when they are on Holidays? It is not only full time teachers who correct state exams. Many unemployed teachers correct them too. It also looks good on a CV when you have worked with the State Examinations Commission. However, in times of hardship, such as this, I think it might be wise to have teachers work with the State Examinations Commission in line with practices in other countries. It might be argued that it is a luxury we cannot afford.
Are there teachers in the system without H Dips ? Unfortunately yes. However, the Teaching Council was supposed to be set up in order to ensure that teachers had minimum qualifications to teach the subjects they are qualified to do. If there are teachers in the system who are not suitably qualified, then the regulatory body governing teachers is not fulfilling its statutory responsibility.
Has anyone ever failed a HDip ? I don’t know is the honest answer to that.
Should we have non maths graduates teaching maths? We should have subject specific teachers who teach subjects they are qualified to teach. Without exception.
What is the annual tax take from Grinds that no one seems to give? I have no idea. Although, I don’t know what that has to do with educational outcomes.
Finally , of the 6 questions posed , which four do you just might be effecting our international rankings? I don’t believe there are four up there. Indeed, it is a leading question. I would pose another question. How might we improve our education system to ensure that our students get the best education possible? Here are my suggestions. 1) That Irish teachers regularly engage with programmes of Continuous Professional Development. If the improvement is to start anywhere, then it must start with the teacher. There is a saying which says “When the teacher stops learning, students do too”. 2) That we re-assess how we teach, why we teach and how we assess our students and move forward accordingly. 3) That we place a value on education in society. 4) That the government invests in putting more teachers into schools and allows teachers to plan and assess more effectively by freeing up time for them to do so. 5) That structures are put in place in schools that ensures an equality of opportunity for all our students to work in a progressive educational environment. This would involve investing in leadership structures and teams in schools. 6) That we encourage participation in education, not exclusion. 7) That we change the programmes of teacher training. 8) That we employ only teachers who are qualified to teach the subject they teach.
I would conclude by saying that I am no apologist for the Irish education system. If we are to improve it, then let’s look at the real issues that are affecting Irish education and address them accurately. Slating teachers for holidays and slagging them off for pay, retirements etc… do not address the real issues in Irish education. There are real difficulties and challenges but huge opportunities too which need to be identified and seized upon. I know this reply will seem excessive, however I felt that your argument merited a thought out response and in the interests of a healthy and informed debate, I felt it was necessary.
Regards.

@ mark. Your such a typical teacher. Never wrong and hates to be told the truth. Fact of the matter is that teachers are overpaid and underworked. The curriculum is a joke. Basically all you learn in school is basic reading and writing and simple maths. (And it’s parents who end up doing the most of that work). The real learning is done in college, employment and life in general. Also the amount of teachers that i have seen beating and bullying children is unbelievable. They are on such a power trip and that is why they hate being told what to do outside of the classroom, It’s because they see themselves as being above the rest of us. Of course teachers have away too much time on their hands, thats why so many of them end up in politics. I’m all for giving the children a break from the torture of school but the teachers should be put to use during the holidays instead of being paid idle.

@ David. I disagree with nearly everything you have said in your comment. If you think that all you learn in school is basic reading, writing and maths, then it betrays your complete lack of knowledge as to what goes on in schools these days. Parents are supposed to do most of the work. After all, they are the parents. As regards teachers beating and bullying children, I have to say that I have never seen that in an Irish school. That is not to say that it didn’t happen in the past, however, you make it seem like an everyday occurrence in schools today. I can categorically state that this is not the case. You seem to label every teacher with the same brush. There are some complete wasters in teaching. They are in the minority. In an organisation with 60,000 people in it, you will get some wasters. I certainly don’t see myself as better than anyone else. I have no reason to. Finally, if you actually bothered to read my post, you would see that I agree with teachers working with the SEC in June as we are in difficult times. And whatever about your opinion on what I say, you are entitled to it. But I disagree with you in all cases except the issue about teachers working in June.

@mark. It’s ok to disagree but that doesn’t make you right and me wrong. I wasn’t talking about just working with the sec for their wages. there’s loads more work they could do but they see themselves as being above it. and look at you with ur big long posts now that your days “work” is over. I remember the teachers striking for more pay a few years ago and withdrawing supervision for more pay when they used not even supervise in the first place. how else do all the school fights occur.

@Mark
Fair enough, I can see that you are an educator and are interested in improving the system as whole rather than the more self-serving, at any cost attitude of the teachers unions. I know we will disagree with this interpretation but it is the perception everyone I have ever spoken to outside the profession has of them. I also want to make it abundantly clear that I am not a teacher basher. I admire what they do and recognise their role in giving us the skilled workforce we will need in the future. However, regarding the PISA reports, to say that we are actually worse than we thought is hardly a mitigation of the fact that we are not competitive educationally. Maybe I was being flippant about some of the contributing factors , So you tell me what direction are we moving in then? Remember , for all its faults the Celtic tiger years resulted in massive increases in teacher’s pay , in social welfare payments ,various social welfare allowances for uniforms , books etc ,the amount of SNAs in schools and of course technology where kids can access on line forums , tutors , e-learning etc etc .These things simply didn’t exist 20 years ago and we still had a workforce good enough to attract all the FDI (alongside the tax breaks) . Surely, the aforementioned had some positive effect on educational outcomes? Yet we see no proof that this is the case. Let’s look at Norway and S Korea (the top two ranked countries in OECD ) .Outside of any societal factors, is it not true that their qualification/ general standard of teachers education is much higher than here? Are we saying this is not a major factor in their respective success? (BTW Norway is every bit as expensive as Ireland if not more). I know I am setting the bar high, but that’s where we have got to be, at the top. We are an island, with a small population, therefore no economies of scale, no natural resources to speak of, so we desperately need to be on top of our game. The teaching of a second language in this country is abysmal when compared to other Euro countries, we are slipping in Maths & science, and things have to change and now (at least in the sphere of your own control). I respect the answers you have given and I wish you luck on changing form the inside. I am delighted that you agree that only teachers with degrees in specific subjects should be allowed teach those subjects. No teacher should get an allowance for having an honours HDip , if someone can’t get a 2.2 in a Hdiploma that no one fails then they should not be Teaching ,full stop, they are substandard. In terms of fairness or even optics, Will you agree that a full time teacher should not be paid to correct state exams, when they are already on holiday on full pay?

Regards.

@David.

I’m actually still in work and I replied to you on a tea break. Or do you begrudge teachers tea breaks as well? I notice you were able to reply to me fairly quickly. You don’t need to explain to me how that was the case. I don’t think that you should have to explain what you do. I actually think it’s arrogant of someone to need to know how somebody can find the time to debate on these forums. But press ahead if it makes you fell good. Can you point out the work that teachers could be doing that you believe we think is beneath us?

@ Tensing I’ll start by pointing out that I am no fan of the teacher’s union leadership. They serve themselves and not us. If they truly represented us, they would not agree to things such as incidental inspections, reduction in teacher numbers, and allowing teachers who have lost their jobs in recent years to be placed on Jobsbridge. They would also not be on the lavish pay and expenses they are on. When we asked our union leadership to take a pay cut in line with the pay cuts we have suffered (17%), and thus reduce our union fees, we were told that the union leadership is in the private sector and therefore shouldn’t be subject to cuts in the public sector. (Yes, this is from the leadership of a public sector union). However, the rank and file members of the teaching unions are merely teachers who want to protect their pay and conditions, as is the want of every trade union around.

I disagree somewhat with the premise of your educational outlook. You give emphasis of the teacher’s role in giving Ireland a “skilled workforce we will need in the future”. While I agree with the importance of providing skilled workers, I would like to see more of an emphasis on developing well rounded people with a broad range of skills who can contribute to society. I am very much against a commercial emphasis on education as is seen in the UK and am happy for third level and PLC institutions to continue to specialise in preparing specialist workers for the economy. I am interested in the Finnish model which is based on values and needs for society. It’s a philosophy that seems to have served them well if the OECD reports are anything to go by.

Just to clarify my position on the PISA reports. Leaving the emphasis on preparing students for economic contribution aside, the PISA reports exaggerated how good we were initially. The result was that our “demise” was also exaggerated. The important thing was the reaction to the findings. There is now a very short sighted response with a push for literacy and numeracy while not providing adequate support or resources for this push. Various things need to be brought to light. There has been a huge increase in the amount of students in our schools since 2000, that do not have English as a first language. This is bound to have an effect on literacy and even numeracy. The FF/PD and FF/Greens governments had poor records when it came to resourcing schools to effectively work with these students. Also, there has been a shift away from parents reading to their kids. This too has an impact on a child’s attitude to reading and thus, their literacy capabilities. A complete review and re-assessment of our strategies and resourcing was needed, however due to lack of funding, this was not forthcoming.

The majority of FDI now comes in IT and the pharmaceuticals sector. Irish schools lagged way behind our OECD counterparts when it came to investments in IT. In general, Ireland’s IT services are poor. All you need to look at is our national broadband network to see how badly off we are compared to other OECD countries. Irish teachers too never trained regularly in ICT as ICT only became more important in the job over the last few years and in a very informal way. There should have been a national drive towards ICT literacy among teachers and investment in IT in schools. This was not forthcoming. The result being that the only sector it seems that there is a labour shortage is in the IT sector as there are not enough qualified graduates to fill positions.

Yet we see no proof that this is the case. Let’s look at Norway and S Korea (the top two ranked countries in OECD ) .Outside of any societal factors, is it not true that their qualification/ general standard of teachers education is much higher than here? Are we saying this is not a major factor in their respective success? (BTW Norway is every bit as expensive as Ireland if not more). I know I am setting the bar high, but that’s where we have got to be, at the top. We are an island, with a small population, therefore no economies of scale, no natural resources to speak of, so we desperately need to be on top of our game.

I completely agree with your assessment of our teacher training in Ireland. I am not in favour of the HDip as an effective method, not only for the training of teachers, but for the preparation of teachers for life as a teacher. I would much prefer to see a series of 4 year degree courses rolled out for the specialised training of teachers, particularly at second level, with a one year induction as a NQT, a type of internship if you like and more opportunities provided for Continuous Professional Development throughout a teacher’s career. I feel that 1 year’s training is insufficient preparation. If implemented properly, this would provide us with teachers who are better prepared for the challenges, and it is a challenge, of being a teacher. I would imagine that given the lack of funds available, these aspirations will remain just that for now.

The issue of payment for working with the State Examinations Commission is one I have given thought to. I would like to see NQTs work with the SEC as part of their training/internship so as to gain a practical insight into the examinations and assessment processes. I would also be in favour of allowing unemployed teachers to be given the opportunity to take part so as to keep up to speed with assessments procedures. I would also like to see full time teachers do the same on a rotational basis, i.e. they correct them every 3 years for the same reasons as the other two groups of people mentioned. This might make it a bit more equitable for people and the only people who should get paid for this system are the unemployed teachers and interns. In times such as these, it might make things a bit fairer.

The problem with all these suggestions is that they require funding and backbone to implement. Unfortunately, education has become a political football and nobody seems willing to grab the bull by the horns. There seems to be an obsession with doing things right and ticking boxes than having the courage to do the right thing. This lack of leadership is evident throughout Ireland in general and we can least afford to have this lack of leadership when it comes to education. That is why we must attempt to improve things by correctly identifying what is wrong and addressing it without (and I’m not suggesting you are in this case) resorting to focusing on incidentals such as holidays as they merely deflect from what are the real issues.

Regards.

Rks@mark. I don’t begrudge teachers anything. I just think their underworked and overpaid. I’m self employed myself and I also have a full time job. That’s 39 hours a week. So I work 24/7 and never complain about it because I truly love what I do. I don’t see why teachers can’t clean the school after the children go home but they would probably just force the children to do it for them while they drink tea. They could paint the school during the summer and mid terms and look after the grounds but I know yer all away above all that so I would put teachers into administrative positions in government departments like the dept of social welfare, etc. Also I think the way teachers always give out about funding is gas because the majority of the budget goes on their wages. You see in the real world money is finite and there’s only so much to go around. Then they have the cheek to ask parents to pay money to the school which is sad. Why don’t teachers put in some of their own money if they are genuinely concerned for the children. I pay enough tax to send my children to school so I expect other people to live within their budgets the same as i do.

@David
What are you basing the assertion that teachers are overworked and underpaid on? As for cleaning the school after the kids go home and getting teachers to maintain the grounds? I take it you’re then in favour of kicking cleaners and caretakers out of their jobs. You see it’s all well and good to spout such rhetoric but it is, in my view, incredibly short sighted But wait, you have uncovered our secret slave labour camps where kids do all the cleaning and maintaining of schools. But you see, we don’t all drink tea. Some of us like to whip the kids to make sure they’re working hard enough. And we have teachers at the gates to make sure they don’t escape. But yeah, I’m afraid, they drink tea too. Some like coffee, the greedy snobby pretentious toffs that they are. As for putting teachers into jobs such as admin in the Dept of Social Welfare over the school holidays, is that really the best idea you can come up with? Why not have teachers do things that will actually improve the standard of work they do, i.e. teach and have them do work associated with that? The only reason that schools have to ask parents to donate to schools is because government funding is so low. Unfortunately, our government prioritises the payment of unsecured debt to anonymous bondholders over funding for schools. Read the papers if you don’t believe me. As for teachers funding schools, firstly, teachers are tax payers too. But you probably don’t want to hear little fact so I’ll ask you of any country in the developed world where that happens as a regular practice. And when my kids are going to school, I’ll be paying my taxes to fund schools just like everyone else. Only I’ll appreciate the effort teachers make with my kids and not gripe and begrudge.

@ Mark. Underworked and overpaid. Not overworked and underpaid. And yes i would leave go the cleaners out of the schools as there is no need for them. The state is not obliged to hire people for the sake of providing employment. Glad to see you are admitting to the not so secret slave labour camps. As for teachers working in administrative duties in other state departments, i knew that would be beneath you aswell. Maybe ye should work in the private sector to learn what a budget is. Government funding is not low. It is huge and being wasted on huge wages and pensions. Schools were overfunded during the boom as Fianna Fail bowed down to the unions and thats the problem now. Such a bad influence teachers have on their pupils with all their whining and bumming for money to pay their wages. LIVE WITHIN YOUR BUDGET. There was 40 children in my class in school and we all learned how to knit, sew, irish dance, and a few other useful things. And we were made clean the school back then and we were beaten and bullied and that is during the late eighties/early nineties. Again i won’t be donating to any teachers wages because i already pay loads of tax for to have my children go to school. I appreciate the work everybody does and teachers are no more important than anybody else. It’s like ye feel ye are the only ones that can waffle off the same old syllabus and the same notes every year without effort and that ye deserve yer huge pay and pensions while working a part-time job

@David

I’m afraid your comments really show up how little you know about the education system today. You’re entitled to your opinion but I would suggest that you actually read up on what you’re talking about before spouting the nonsense that you are. You might be happy to go back to the days of 40 in a class and using quills if you want. . Your suggestions would have us back in the Dark Ages. I assume that people generally want better than what they had for their kids and the next generation. Your comments suggest otherwise. You actually seem to have no idea about schools, the work teachers do, the challenges involved and the actual problems that are in education today because there are real problems. And nothing you suggest would go any way to solving them.

Of course i want better for my children. You must not have read any of my comments. That doesn’t mean bigger budgets are needed. We hardly need to go back to the quill, I know the public sector is backward but yer not thay bad. now get back to work because I’m paying ur wages.

@David
A wise person once said that arguing with ignorance is a waste of my intelligence. I agree with him. Hope you get time in your 24/7(??) job to read it.

Good Day Boss!!

@mark. Of course you’re more intelligent than me up there on ur high horse teacher

@David

I never claimed to be more intelligent than you. I was simply pointing out that when it comes to knowing what ACTUALLY goes on in schools in 2012, you seem to not have a clue. Tha’s not to say you don’t know about other things that I would not have a clue about. I can accept when people know more than me about stuff and don’t feel the need to insult them just because that is the case. That chip on your shoulder must be wedged on fairly tight.

@mark. I’m afraid i dont watch tv so I don’t actually know what having a chip on ones shoulder means. As for schools in 2012. My local school has 2 pupils starting and 3 started last year and they have 5 teachers. Surely I don’t have to explain to you that this is huge waste of taxpayers money and it should be amalgamated with other schools closeby. You seem to know all about the bondholders so u must have a good grasp of economics if not common sense.

What about the F****g allowances those b******ds get in the dail???????????? 3,500 dry cleaning, phone, 4,000 UNVOUCHED expenses , so please give me a break… Someone is going to crack soon. I for one am very, very near to it.

Ah, such a refreshing sight to see – reasonable debate and intelligent arguments on the Journal, made in a new way too.

Anyway, on to the point. Yes, those bastards in the dail, as you so eloquently put it, have an obscene amount of allowances.
Yes, they should be cut to some degree.

Does that mean that the mere *thought* of cuts elsewhere should be ruled out? No, of course not.

Try to consider this action rationally: we are spending more than we take in in taxes.
That statement *alone* is what’s important right now.

There’s other places to cut though and I think education and health are the places that should be considered last. Social welfare payments are ridiculous for example……the allowances given to td’s……..

@Daniel I have for many years put my thoughts forward. ” eloquently” but my eloquence has been eroded to the soul, your comment is a FG supporters comment, I did not say there should be not cuts elsewhere, so I will put it differently with less obscenities ….. START CUTTING ALLOWANCES FROM THE TOP DOWN….. If those representatives want to be taken seriously, then let them start paying for there own dry cleaning with the monthly 4K.. Hope this meets with your kind and considered approval.
Regards
Dave

Dave: Actually, I fully approve of obscenities. It’s the passing of them without any intelligence or intent for debate that I disapprove of ;)

Emsy/Dave: Again, you’re both completely right – cuts need to be made *everywhere*
Simply stating that they have to start from the top down doesn’t really add up though. We need to get actual numbers, I think.
Is cutting these allowances going to save more, overall, than cutting the dry-cleaning allowance for TDs (3,500e, I believe), for example?

Yes, leaders should lead by example, but if the savings are tiny, in comparison to those that can be made elsewhere, then the larger ones are much more important in the grand scheme.

Dave: Also, don’t be silly. Commenting that my voice is ‘FG’ like is just ridiculous in the extreme.
I have opinions. I voice them. They cross the boundaries of every and all parties.

Dave,I didn’t say the cuts should start from the top. But cutting the allowances in the dail would help. My big one would be social welfare payments. I used to work in hotel and catering,in kitchens and cafes. I was unemployed and had to go on the dole at one point. When I claimed unemployment benefit with rent allowance I was actually bringing home close to my regular pay. Some of these people on the dole (namely the ones who think it’s acceptable to sign on or show up for interviews in their pyjamas) could only get the type of jobs I used to do,if even. Therefore,there is little to no incentive to get dressed,make the effort and get a job. I like to work so I hated being on the dole but not everyone is like that. Even to penalise those who show no effort whatsoever (again,the bananas in pyjamas) by suspending or taking away a weeks pay when they show up for interview showing such little interest. The amount we could save even by just deducting €10 from their weekly pay would be hugely beneficial to the country. At least that’s my belief,I’d be happy to be proven wrong though as I spend a lot of time getting angry over it……

@Daniel, its not about saving more when I speak of the ludicrously , outlandish allowances TD’s get, its about setting the example, yes cut the EOD allowance of Iirsh soldiers from 80 to 70 ( rough estimates) when on duty for 24hrs ( and if you have followed the journal you will see the EOD teams are flat out) but dare not touch a bloody red cent of a 3,500 bloody , f*****g dry cleaning allowance and to make matters worse, some of the B******ds dont even wear suits. JEEEEEESSUUUUUS we are a dopey shower in this country.

It’s an allowance for having *more* than the minimum qualifications, surely? To encourage prospective teachers to bring the best possible educational achievements into the profession, and to encourage them to seek work in marginalised areas or with disadvantaged groups. Unusually forward-thinking, I’d say.

Cuts are one thing, but it’s a strange world where it’s okay to say that you have to offer over €500K to attract ‘the best’ to further feck up the banking industry or over €150K to advise a Minister, but not okay to offer an extra €5K to get a teacher with decent Masters.

Full Disclosure: I am not, and will never be, a teacher. But the good ones are worth their weight in gold.

A H.dip is, I believe, a minimum requirement to be a teacher. Why not make it a part of basic pay?

And if a person up-skills, great. They should be first in line for promotions and pay increases based on increased performance thanks to their qualification. Automatic allowances are a bit silly.

That being said, I think new entrants are being unfairly targeted. They’re not protected by the unions and the sweet deal of Croke Park. That’s unjust.

Read it again, the allowance was for an honours hdip. ie above the minimum. A teacher can only hold one allowance at a time, so if you have an honours allowance and get a masters, the masters allowance replaces the honours allowance it is not in addition to it.
In my own case, I paid about €6000 to do a masters, on graduation my pay increased by €590 per year! It’ll take another few years just to break even.

You mention promotion? What promotion? There are no promotions, you are either a teacher in a classroom or a principal, that’s it. Most teachers don’t want to become a principal, it’s an admin job not a teaching job
Rant over :-)

An honours H.dip ought to be the min, but that’s another story.

I don’t disagree with rewarding up-skilling, it’s just the automatic way in which it is done that is irksome. It’s only widely done in the public sector. Why is that?

Teachers ought to get pay raises with performance, not years served, like all public servants should. The whole system needs a change, so it’s difficult to look at one aspect in isolation.

In any event, to return to my earlier point it’s a pity that new entrants are suffering most. Their union colleagues aren’t being very socialist in sharing the pain.

your talking bs. Yes the ps will pay for your course if its relevant to your work but you don’t get an automatic upgrade for doing one. this is a fact. a degree , diploma, masters or whatever may help you in climbing the ladders but it certainly doesn’t qualify. regarding the teachers allowances being cut us an absolute disgrace. no incentive there to go the extra mile as a pp said.

Actually Alicia, the article states that you do indeed get an automatic allowance, merely for getting the qualification.

…unless I misunderstood it?

I’ve paid for my own Masters my friend, not the Board.

In nursing, if you move from the general wards to, say, ICU, Casualty or Theatre you automatically get paid an allowance, no extra qualification needed!

It’s not, it’s €27,814 before adding on extras for things like having a degree, which clearly should be included in the basic salary package. NQTs potentially can earn up to €34k in their first year. The average industrial wage, including those at the end of their working life, is around €37k. That an inexperienced teacher should be earning so much so soon is not a reflection of their worth. Teachers’ salaries were allowed to increase out of step with rises in inflation and the cost of living. It’s time to adjust to sustainable levels of pay.

The state is paying out €1.2bn in 2011 and 2012 in tax free lump sums to retiring public servants, according to the SBP. It’s an entitlement they have, but gosh darn it is a broken system that set that one up.

Ah Cormac,
We probably agree on a lot of things if it comes down to it,
The teachers issue makes me angry because they are front line people, and my blood boils when I think of the damage all the cuts will do to the future of this country.

But, like you say, clear out the clutter in the loft – there’s a lot of clutter in that there loft.

Dave, I get the feeling that you don’t like your job. You should try getting a different one. Do teachers do the extra study for the money or for their sense of committment to their charges. Do they have the right motivation? Fair play to those who do it for the right reasons, but as I said above, your union set-up wouldn’t allow teachers to be treated as individual performers.

It is a public sector and small minded thing to imagine that one size fits all. Fortunately shoes come from the private sector. Such thinking also permeates many private sector establishments like banks, but then they have returned to their natural environment by becoming nationalised.

To get a different result, you have to do something different. We can’t save money and continue to pay the wages of all public sector employees as if nothing was wrong. Your union’s mistake was treating all teachers as equal, when they obviously are not. The allowances should have been built into the basic pay. If a teacher with a masters is actually worth more in terms of their contribution to the education of our children, then why not make more of it and put them on a higher payscale. It is either a perk or its pay. If its a perk, it goes the way of all jollies, into the bin. If it is a real benefit, then it is a payroll issue.

I think your unions are morally bankrupt by not engaging with the reality of their employers being bankrupt. As for the history lesson, more recently the benchmarking really messed up the pitch and payed out way more than was justified to keep greedy Public Sector workers from chucking their rattle out of their pram. What did the tax payer get for benchmarking??? A big fat bill and no improvement in anything. It is time it was taken back. Go whinge in your staff room.

If you want to know about the real world, I’ve been self employed most of my life. I’ve never made it to the big time, but by and large, I’m happy with my lot. But when the last government let the economy run out of control, my income remained flat. I didn’t whinge. When it all came tumbling down, I took a 50% hit in 2008, another 50% hit in 2009 and a paltry 20% in 2010. Those hits are based on the previous year’s income, so don’t anyone tell me you can’t have a 120% pay cut. I haven’t earned enough to pay any taxes in the past three years, but then I haven’t made any claims for welfare either.

Don’t tell me I can’t see past my nose, it took me a whole year to save enough to get a new pair of glasses.

How will that happen? How will you measure a teachers ability? Tick the boxes? Employ civil servants to shadow teachers as they work? Constructive criticism anyone? A template for this great idea?

Open invitation to come into my class for a week and try my job

Teaching council is an organisation which is in charge of the PROFESSIONAL side of teaching. ALL teachers MUST have a degree in the subject they are teaching. You CANNOT teach, for example geography, unless you have a degree in geography…geography taken in all 4 years not just a module taken at one semester.

Cormac
Do you really think that the education of our children is that trivial?

To be honest, Dave, trivial is not the issue. I deal with an equation of inputs and outputs. The best output is rarely delivered by the most academically qualified person. Teaching is no different. I know that there are many teachers who give their heart and soul to the job and many who just dip the oars in the water from time to time. Look around your staff room. You know those who contribute and those who are just there for the paycheque waiting for eraly retirement, or the next half day, or the next mid-term break. Be honest, if you could replace these weaker teachers with younger ones with fire in their bellies, wouldn’t it be the honourable thing to do? The kids would thank you for it.

The kids know who the good teachers are and who the weak teachers are. Our children’s education is important, but so too is an environment where they are taught by committed teachers and anyone who says there are many in the job who shouldn’t be there is blind and deaf to boot.

Committment, values, work ethic and a genuine interest in their career will deliver far more output than honours graduates. I’ve met many teachers over my years as a school and college going student. Many of my friends are teachers and I’ve met my children’s teachers. I’ve been a student, and I work with recruiters. I know what works in the workplace. While job applicants may be nicely packaged with their degrees, at the end of the day, it is only a qualification. It tells you that they should be able to do the job if the education is the right education, but whether they can, and will do the job as their employer expects, is a whole other kettle of fish.

Education is too important to be left in the hands of academics.

Brian you are wrong . There are teachers in the system teaching maths with no maths qualification . There are teachers with pass degrees and even in the system with no H. Dips . Fact!