If a twelve year old buys a bar of chocolate in a shop they pay tax on it. Should they be allowed vote as taxpayers?

Well tell me this David, Why shouldn’t a 16 year old be allowed to vote?

There’s probably a lot you don’t know you’re saying Gavin:

“If you can pay taxes you should be able to have a say on where those taxes go.”

To follow that line of reasoning, one should be only allowed to vote if they pay income tax, will you agree? I think it would be a fairer system btw.

My apologies Raf, that is exactly what I meant. If you pay tax on “earned” money then you should have a right to say where it goes. eg if you pay income tax.
David here is putting words in my mouth.

This is bloody nonsense. I’m a father of three children in their twenties and at 16 they could join the army, work, pay taxes, leave school, be detained, fly a plane, father a child and lots of other things. So why didn’t they?
Because while they COULD do these things it doesn’t mean that they SHOULD. You could find a two year old who could place a tick in a box but this doesn’t mean they should be allowed to vote too. At 16 its hard enough getting them to tidy their bloody room and clean up after themselves, but we’re seriously to believe they’re ok to understand politics and choose a government which will not only affect them but everyone else as well. I don’t think so.
I’ve no doubt there are 16 year olds out there who are more than capable of doing all the above but we have to realise that the vast majority are not, its not as simple as paying tax on a bar of chocolate and expecting an automatic say on where that tax is spent. As adults who vote and feel its getting to the stage where the air we breathe will be taxed soon, does anyone seriously believe you have a say on how your taxes are spent? Remember 10 year olds buy chocolate too, so where do you draw the line here? The bottom line is, just because a teenager can do something does not automatically mean that they should do it.

I agree, this country needs to decide what an ‘adult’ is. When I was 16, I wouldn’t have been allowed to drive a car even if I knew how, but I still had to pay an adult fare on the public transport system (on Dublin Bus that’s more than twice the cost of a child fare). Hello?

It is a bit of a stretch to compare something as fundamental as voting to a discount on the bus, paid for by parents anyway.

It’s only an example, but the way I see it, it is kind of unfair to say it’s ok treat us like adults when they can benefit financially from it, but treat us like children where it actually matters.

“Let the people vote”

That’s exactly what they are afraid of! If 16+ year olds were allowed to vote, politics in Ireland would be a lot more vibrant. This SI in relation to copyright has shown how politicly motivated the youth of Ireland can become when they believe in a topic so dearly.
The government are afraid of that energy and cut throat attitude that the youth have. They just want an easy ride… get in there, do a bit of work and get the big pension. No ifs, ands or buts.

Let them vote!

I agree, anyone who does not pay income tax or is on welfare should not have a say in where the money paid by those who do work goes.

Foreigners aren’t allowed to vote btw. with the exception of local elections where you only have to be a citizen of an EU country to vote where you live.

“I’m very sorry lads, but at 16 most teenagers don’t know their arse from their elbow”

I could say the same thing about someone twice their age!

If a 16 year old is given the right to vote then they would in the majority of cases, inform themselves.
We are teaching kids from as young as 12 CSPCE (Civic, Social and Political Education). They probably know more about the inner workings of the government than we do.

I remember when I turned 18, it was just in time for the MEP elections here in Ireland. I was so proud that I could vote that I actually physically researched each of the runners and watched the debates religiously. If you are given the right then you are more likely to respect it.

Let them have a go at it. They are more than capable!

Sorry Gavin, but CSPE is the biggest waste of money the dept of education ever thought of. It’s the only subject thought at common level, teachers don’t teach it, students don’t study it. The fact that ‘Draw a poster’ features on the exam pretty much says it all

Stereotyping teenagers like that is extremely offensive. I know many teenagers who are very interested in politics and social issues, and have better formed opinions than the average 20-something year old. I agree that CSPE is a waste of a subject, but it’s not the teenagers that are taught it that made it so!

Are you saying that the teenagers involved in movements like Young Fine Gael (not including myself, to clarify) have zero interest in politics? That the teenagers across the country (like myself) who participate in Student Councils, Comhairle na nÓg, Dáíl na nÓg, and competitions like Model European Parliament and Model European Council have no interest in politics? Get a grip and stop lumping us all into the one category. Teenagers are as varied in their interests, thoughts and opinions as those ten, twenty or thirty years our senior.

Teenagers only have a bad reputation because adults completely underestimate us, and maybe don’t want to admit that they weren’t a model teenager themselves, so they generalise and paint us all with the same tarred brush. Teenagers are full of enthusiasm and great ideas – with little of the cynicism of adulthood – , in my experience, and have yet to even prove themselves. The people who ran this nation into the ground were adults, and they still have the right to vote.

“I could say the same thing about someone twice their age!”

Congratulations Gavin, you’ve just unearthed the grim truth: democracy is the rule of stupid majority i.e. idiocracy.

Meg Ross, nobody is stereotyping anyone.

You have to remember anyone who is now a adult used to be a teenagers and is well aware of what it was like,

Sure there are groups of teenagers involved in things like young but these are very much in a minority.

You yourself are trying to generalize all students as wanting to get involved in the bigger world, this however is far from the truth. The vast majority of teenagers have zero interest in anything that isn’t them, their friends or stuff they own.

Unlike teenagers we can speak from actual experience and know what it is like to be a adult, teenagers only think they know,

You are stereotyping. Yes, a lot of teenagers couldn’t be bothered about politics, but that’s very true of adults too – you don’t see me saying that most adults “don’t know their arse from their elbow” . It’s not a good enough reason to not give us the vote. How much more life experience does an 18 year old have than a 16 year old? You wonder why teenagers don’t want to have anything to do with politics, but then turn around and say their voice doesn’t count for as much as someone marginally older than them.

I’m not saying every 16 year old would use their vote wisely, but that’s not to say that ever over-18 year old does. I’m sick of society underestimating the intellect of teenagers and their capacity to be interested in the world around them. It would be a positive step to, for once, give young people the benefit of the doubt.

As for self-involvement, teenagers are hardly the only ones who can be self-involved. Some people in powerful positions seem to only look out for themselves and their own, to the detriment of the country. How much more harm could 16 year olds really do to the country?

Well said Meg. Completely agree with you.
The stereotyping in this chat is unbelievable.

Thank You, yes they didn’t elect the greatest government in history but the parties do hold part of the blame and I’d more say the 2007 electorate where the worse one but that’s a matter of opinion so suit yourself.

The movement is just another expansion of a democracy movement that also gave blacks, women, catholics and others the vote ONLY after convincing the mainstream view and established powers that democracy wouldn’t collapse. The status quo always fears change like this. And the status quo is a mess.

I’ve worked in the youth sector for the last 12 years and can tell you that 16 year olds aren’t as foolish, ignorant or apathetic as the stereotyping would have you believe. If you want to make generalisations then it can also be done of other groups based on age, geography, socio-economic status and gender.

Lowering the voting age isn’t going to threaten democracy, but rather enhance it and benefit society as a whole. The current system is broken and this is one of many measures that can help breath new life into it.

OK I am in. But only if we also let them drive, smoke, drink (officially, i.e. in bars) and be responsible for their actions in courts like adults.

Not true Raf not at all, I personally want to see a reduction of students in public schools(FG are kinda doing that right motive, wrong way), don’t want any jobs guaranteed in the public sector(I don’t believe they’re should even be a bloody public sector outside of health, why does the government need shares in an airline,electricity company,etc? it’s pathetic), the dole I believe should be what is required for basic standard of living and as for the higher taxes, ye I do want that actually on those who brought the bloody country down.

Probably going to get a lot of thumbs down on this but that’s what I want and you can’t say we don’t know how things work because you probably don’t even know anyone aged 16 so glad you changed your mind.

Further more re “be responsible for their actions in courts like adults.” as a bullying victim I’d love that, might teach the odd one or two of them to cop on. You can’t judge the majority on a minority, I really would like to see this happen.