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Updated 1.20pm, Friday 30 November
ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT, the Dáil voted down legislation proposed by the United Left Alliance TD Clare Daly to provide for abortion in circumstances where there is a risk to the life of a pregnant woman.
The government had made clear its intentions to vote down the legislation as it currently considers bringing forward its own measures to respond to the expert group report on the European Court of Human Rights ruling in the A, B and C versus Ireland case two years ago.
A total of 128 TDs voted last night with 101 voting against the bill and 27 voting in favour of it, leaving 38 TDs who did not vote, all for a variety of reasons which TheJournal.ie has been attempting to establish today and here is what we’ve found out.
Firstly, the Ceann Comhairle Seán Barrett, abstained from the vote in keeping with the mandate of his office to observe strict impartiality and to not participate or vote in any debates except in the event of a tie.
Of the government TDs – that is any TD from Fine Gael and the Labour Party who has not lost the whip – who did not vote it has been confirmed that they had permission to miss the vote from the whip’s office.
In most situations government ministers who missed the vote will have a pair on the opposition benches who will not vote in order to off-set the ministerial absence. This is known as ‘pairing’.
It could not be confirmed for definite if pairing was the reason for the absence of some Fianna Fáil TDs including Micheál Martin, Seán Fleming, Willie O’Dea, and Robert Troy.
However, a Fianna Fáil spokesperson said: “Fianna Fáil did not support Deputy Daly’s Bill because the party is currently studying the report of the Expert Group and will give a considered view on the appropriate way forward when the party has discussed the report. In common with all other Private Members Motions in Dáil Éireann, a number of deputies were unable to attend the vote because of other commitments.”
As for the rest, Fine Gael TD and Jobs Minister Richard Bruton was at an engagement with IDA Ireland and a client company, the Department of Jobs said.
The two Ministers of State from that department were also otherwise engaged with Labour TD Seán Sherlock granted a pairing by the chief whip. “The Minister has said that for the record he would have voted with the Government had he been in the Dáil,” the Department of Jobs said.
Fine Gael TD and Minister for Small Business, John Perry, was at the InterTradeIreland All Island Seedcorn Awards at the Titanic museum in Belfast.
Fellow Fine Gael TD and Minister of State Fergus O’Dowd was attending a conferences in Limerick and Dublin. He told us that he was paired for the day but was “supporting fully” the position of the government on the issue.
Fine Gael TD Catherine Byrne has been in hospital this week where she underwent surgery and she is currently recuperating for the next two weeks.
Her fellow Fine Gael TD and Junior Minister Ciarán Cannon is on an education mission to India from which he returns later this week.
Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Labour TD Joe Costello was speaking at an Irish Aid event to mark World Aids Day at the University of Limerick and was paired a spokesperson said.
Labour TD Anne Ferris is currently recovering from recent surgery and has not been in the Dáil for the past few weeks.
Fine Gael TD and party chairman Charlie Flanagan was at a “long-standing meeting” in his capacity as party chairman but said that he would have voted against the proposed legislation in anticipation of the government’s decision on introducing its own measures before the end of the year.
Independent TD Shane Ross was with his wife who had just left hospital following recent surgery.
Labour TD Dominic Hannigan was doing an interview with TV3 that was pre-recorded for a future edition of Midweek.
Fine Gael TD and Environment Minister Phil Hogan was on “official business” as was his fellow minister at the Department of Environment and Labour TD Jan O’Sullivan, the Department said.
Fine Gael TDs Tom Hayes and John O’Mahoney were on “private, government business” at the British Embassy in Dublin according to Hayes with Labour TD Colm Keaveney also joining them.
Taoiseach and Fine Gael TD Enda Kenny was not in the Dáil last night and does not normally vote on Private Members’ business, instead attending to government business on a Wednesday evening.
Only in cases where there is a no confidence motion might the Taoiseach vote on such matters.
Minister of State for European Affairs and Fine Gael TD Lucinda Creighton was attending an event with the Taoiseach, a spokesperson said.
Labour TD Michael McCarthy is in Mozambique with the Public Accounts Committee this week where he is joined by Fianna Fáil TD and PAC chairman John McGuinness and Fine Gael TD John Deasy.
Independent TD Finian McGrath was unable to vote having been ejected from the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle during Leaders’ Questions yesterday.
McGrath said that he was told by the Ceann Comhairle that he was suspended for one-day, meaning he could not participate in last night’s debate. But McGrath said that his position on the X Case is that he favours legislation and regulations.
Fine Gael TD Olivia Mitchell said she was attending a constituency event she had committed to, planting a tree at the Bloomfield Nursing Home in Rathfarnham which was celebrating its 200th anniversary.
Mitchell said she was standing in for junior minister Kathleen Lynch who did vote in the Dáil last night and was listed to attend the event. Mitchell said she has already spoken about her position on the issue and favours legislation and regulations to deal with the X Case.
Denis Naughten, who lost the Fine Gael whip last year, had a family bereavement and could not attend the vote.
Former housing minister and Labour TD Willie Penrose – who lost the party whip last year – said he was attending a funeral but said: “I don’t bother about private members any how. I haven’t voted in any private members’ bill for the last six or eight months. I don’t feel that I have to.”
He added that he would not be rushed into making up his mind about any abortion legislation and says he will come to an “informed decision” when he has fully digested the report of the expert group.
Education Minister and Labour TD Ruairí Quinn was “otherwise engaged”, a spokesperson said adding that Quinn had made his position on the issue clear and would have voted with the government had he been there.
Sinn Féin TD Peadar Tóibín was not in attendance despite the party imposing the whip on the motion which required TDs to vote in favour of it. It also meant that all TDs were expected to be in attendance for the vote.
Tóibín could not be reached for comment and his whereabouts last night are not known. A Sinn Féin spokesperson said that this would be “something the party will have to deal with” as he wasn’t on any other party business.
Independent TD Tom Fleming told TheJournal.ie on Friday that he was present in the Dáil for the debate on Wednesday and spoke but that he abstained on the vote.
He said: “I did not vote on the issue on this occasion but I will when it comes back in, when eventually there is a legislative proposal put forward by government subsequent to discussions with the Attorney General’s office and we get a comprehensive proposal.”
At the time of publication, independent deputy Noel Grealish did not return a request for comment.
TheJournal.ie could not confirm the reasons for the absence of Public Expenditure and Reform Minister Brendan Howlin at the time of publication.
Labour TD Derek Nolan could not be reached for comment and neither could Fine Gael TDs Tom Barry and Pat Breen.
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Good woman, planting a tree instead of voting on long overdue legislation
Would it genuinely have made a difference had she turned up? I’m no genius when it comes to politics, but my primal instinct tells me it wouldn’t have mattered whether she was planting a tree, camping in one, or voting in this vote, the result was still going to be no.
All the way out in Rathfarnam as well.
Was this the long over due legislation? A private members bill from Clare Daly?
and there was me thinking she was elsewhere important, like opening an off-licence or something..
For Goodness sake , it does not need Einstein to work out that their vote counted. There may have been many reasons why they did not vote.
Yes the reason being is they were cowards to. Stand up and use their democratic right but instead of voting with their own convictions, they decided to play safe so. They would not loose the party whip WHIMPS is all they are
“I haven’t voted in any private members’ bill for the last six or eight months. I don’t feel that I have to.”
Give that man a raise!
* did not count*
what does “private, government business” mean?!?!
It just means that they were on a piss-up at the British Embassy.
Does it matter? Every last one of them unless they were sf, ind or ula were gonna vote no anyway
“In most situations government ministers who missed the vote will have a pair on the opposition benches who will not vote in order to off-set the ministerial absence. This is known as ‘pairing’.”
Can we please put something in place whereby if a minister misses a set number of votes that they are automatically booted from their position with no kickback retirement funds? It’s nonsense that an elected official can not bother to show up if they can get someone else from the opposition to not show up as well. It’s horrifying anyway that ministers take their positions so lightly as to not treat having a seat in the Dáil with the respect it deserves.
Ministers have two jobs, one executive and one legislative. The only real alternative to having them miss votes when doing their jobs as ministers is to move to a situation like you have in the US and France where ministers aren’t part of the parliament.
That’s what I was going to say too, Chris. There’s pros and cons to the different systems – parliamentary cabinets and non-parliamentary appointed ones. The main pro of the Irish system is an added sense of accountability to parliament and to the electorate. The main con is, as we see here, they wind up not having a lot of time for this actual voting lark.
IIRC the system of pairing actually developed to combat the practice of opposition calling spurious, frequent votes on stuff simply to disrupt ministers’ ability to do the work of government.
You guys in The Journal are going to be worn out if you are going to do a “roll call” for every private members bill in the Dail! Private members bills are rarely passed in Ireland so I’m not entirely sure why you bothered to go to this level of detail.
It’s called a band wagon. Abortion is the new household charge doncha know.
Well if nothing else The J are giving insight to the workings of the Dail which is welcome. However, the main article should reference the fact that private members bills are rarely passed and that’s the norm here. There was an X case bill tabled back in April that was also unsuccessful – practically unnoticed by the public.
Sean Beag
What does that mean ? The new household charge ?
Time to abort this gov. And do away with party a a national gov. Of people who will listen to the public
Would you rather people vote a government in?
Oh wait…
I fully support legislation for the X Case but TheJournal’s obsession with how TDs have voted on this issue is worrying.
Isn’t this supposed to be an impartial news site? Not a pro-choice blog.
This site pays little attention to the voting patterns of TDs for all other votes. This one had obvious importance but to take such a blatant stance on one side of the issue is not becoming of Ireland’s largest online *news* site.
Simple then David… Dont log onto The Journal and dont read any of the stories if you think its journalism standard is so poor and biased! Simples : )
For the most part the articles are informative and nicely laid out. This is a great site. The only thing holding it back is its blatant bias towards left wing politics and populism. If they were a little more impartial the possibilities are endless, but as long as they keep pushing an agenda, people won’t take them very seriously.
So reporting on a story about the attendance of our elected officials at a vote on a very important topic is ‘bias’ and having a ‘left wing agenda’ ?
For me, this article is about one thing that there is very little of in your party and Irish public life – Accountability! Me thinks its this that you have the problem with David
David,
There is no bias or political agenda at play here. The list of which way TDs voted on this issue was extremely popular amongst our readership last night so we decided it would be worth following up to see what the situation was with the TDs who did not vote and that is what has resulted in this story. Our readership drives a lot of the content we produce.
Furthermore there has been discussion of this vote and Peadar Toibin’s absence across the media today and rather than focus on one party where there was an absentee isn’t it fairer to focus on all parties?
At the end of the day this is a public service we are providing in a clear and objective way, informing members of the public how their representative voted.
Sure, we don’t do it for every piece of legislation but the fact that this was the second time in seven months that this legislation was introduced gives you some idea of the importance and relevance of it irrespective of the inevitability of its defeat.
Hugh
Hang on a minute David. Wasn’t it recently you and the rest of Y.F.G. voted in favour of legislation now? Quite vocal on the journal i can recall.
What way would you like it? When you don’t need the journal for your parties promotion, then its biased.
But, when you need it, its quite alright?
Spot on David. I note that there is no such analysis of the vote back in April.
how many abstentions and absences were there in April? maybe more
@Brian Daly . The Journal covered Clare Dalys attempt to pass legislation on X very clearly at the time. Here yea go >>
http://www.thejournal.ie/dail-rejects-proposals-to-allow-limited-abortion-in-ireland-422805-Apr2012/
@ David Higgins I think you will find it’s called covering a topical story which has generated huge debate in this country. I’d suggest thejournal would be failing it’s job description as a news site if it didn’t cover the story and look for different angles to other news carriers.
David, would you prefer that the Irish people didn’t know which of the people they elected into power, voted against the bill? I understand that some bills proposed are not do important, and we don’t eagerly await to see the results, but this was extraordinary. If you don’t think this was history in the making, then you should resign from FFG. You have lost contact with the people. I was a little surprised today to see how little coverage the while thing got in the media, but as the author of this article correctly points our, the average person considers it a big deal. RTE and the rest if the Labour and FFG controlled media didn’t think it was.
The government are going to drag this out to distract everyone from protesting about the budget. This is the same usual shit they pull. When are people going to cop on!!
Noel Grealish is a waste of a seat.
Sean Fleming openly admitted he chose to go on RTE’s ‘late debate’ rather than stay and vote!
The issue here is the blatant lilyliveredness of our politicians. They paired off so that they could not be seen to vote either way. Politicians like this are the very reason democracy is a failed experiment in the human condition.
Wonderful that they voted no.
For the moment this will cause Enda and the boys no little problem indeed it could be very decisive but hopefully it will finally be addressed after 20 years
If people turned on this sham of a government like they do on each other so easily, we would be living in a completely different Country!!!
Well someone voted them into government…?!?!?!
I assume when we all voted in last general election, we voted for the candidate that best represented our on views and this is the result!
Well, one way of looking at it is that, rightly or wrongly, the Irish electorate were apathetic about abortion legislation at the election so it’s hardly surprising the people they voted in are apathetic too. It’s easy to blame successive governments for failing to legislate (and quite right too) but the electorate have to take a share of the blame too for not MAKING IT a pressing political issue until now.
The original Hurlers on the Ditch.
Have they all received their I Pads lately. Surely, an app can be developed whereby all TD’s can vote via this at all times. ?
They were probably in the the bar. At Leinster Hse the pint off Guiness is 20c and still most members owe at least €500 bar bill with some of them boasting that they never intend to pay.
Maybe some of them were, but 20c a pint? That’s a straight out lie.
Now, take the slurs back.
the oireachtas pr man was talking about the transparency of the oireachtas yet you struggle to find out who was paried
who was paired with who
Lets open a log for all TD’s ~ How many hours a week that they spend in the Dail ~ Are they supplying medical certs for being absent like all other employees . Cop – outs like attending events , planting trees , opening motorways , holding ridiculous PR outings to promote themselves or their depts and basically fannying about should also be construed as an absence from the position as elected reps . Salary reductions must be imposed for non-performance as productivity has been imperiled by inaction in an elective legislative position ~ Secondly its a constitutional crime ~ Maybe an honest judge might come on board !
Being party whip must be an unenviable gig. I wonder if there’s a whip allowance?
if this happened in another country there would riots over this kind of carry on!!
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