Too true

When have India lectured Ireland on women’s rights?

We should be mature enough to be ashamed of our own standards on this, without needing to be lectured by India.

@ Anna, People would consider visiting India because it is the most culturally and geographically diverse country in the world. It takes you out of your western comfort zone and brings you to a place that will truly change you forever! I have been going for the last 5 years and I feel I am better equipped to comment on it than the obvious ‘scare monger journalism’. A female traveling alone of which I have met many may take simple precautions, which will greatly reduce the risk of any unwanted attention – research where you stay, ask fellow travelers, dress accordingly, show respect for your surroundings. I think the lady in the above article may have over-reacted, after she locked the door if she shouted ” I will call the police” this would probably have worked. B.T.W India has 1.2 Billion people 1/6 the worlds population, everything is magnified – there is a reported rape in the U.S.A every three minutes with a pop. of 260 million!

In fairness Tony you are not likely to be a target for men seeking to rape or abuse women now are you?

Having been to India with my partner, she never felt so intimidated. I had to accompany her everywhere. She was harassed. Hit intentionally, and spat on/at. So it’s an experience we will not be repeating. Some can hack it, some can’t of which she was the latter. I’ve heard both good and bad experiences. There is obviously a major cultural difference. In contrast, some of our close friends are Indian, and live outside the country and they are very aware of the problems. Tony, I know you are portraying the good side, but unfortunately the bad side cannot be ignored. The shocking rape and murder of that medical student has just brought this problem to the forefront of international attention and it looks like any story will now be highlighted by the media. It’s highlighting a serious problem whereby females are seen culturally as second class citizens.

I really cannot acknowledge I ever ever seen anything negative towards women. I have traveled to every part and I accept there are places more western friendly. I do have a English friend who had an Indian girlfriend and they did encounter some hassle which did not surprise me. I know the men are repressed and there is a murky line between socially accepted common decency. I still maintain that if you use common sense as a female you will enjoy an amazing country. If you are a couple don’t show affection in public kissing, holding hands etc. I know this is harmless in our eyes, but can be deemed highly offensive is other cultures. I remember an Indian girl started talking to me on a train journey which made me very nervous, there was no problem but I did ask her was it okay. I also remember there was a crowd of Indian guys watching a blond girl pass on a beach in north Goa, I was thinking to myself she is pretty but they are easily excited, as she passed I noticed she was wearing a thong bikini. I mean how stupid can you get, it shows complete lack of understanding. I do feel India is getting negative press, I do realise there is a serious problem. I can honestly say that by using common sense and doing a little research it is as safe as any country for any gender. Some people should by-pass India for Thailand it really is as simple as that.

@Tony

You are part of the problem, yes prudence is advisable, but the root problem really is the man who thinks its okay to rape.

@Tony Give me a break! The men are suppressed?! The women are raped, tortured, imprisoned and treated as third class citizens and yet You’ve gone to so much trouble explaining what women should and shouldn’t do to safeguard themselves from being attacked. Tell you what, how bout the men don’t rape???

I actually used the word ‘repressed’, the only public affection you will see is between males it is done as a show of friendship holding hands etc. Obviously there is a problem with the rape of women, but for it’s population it is no more a problem then any western country. The legislation they are proposing is the death penalty – in Japan it is 5-10 for rape and murder. As for woman being second class citizens that is complete rubbish – they have a very important role in society and the family unit. India is not a western country and who are we to try and impose our ideals and values on them. In an ideal world perhaps we could get the best out of all cultures and make a utopia! Until then, perhaps we should look closer to home and try and fix our short-comings!

Tony all of your comments on this thread are complete rubbish. Have you actually researched/read anything about India or do you just travel there and wander around blissfully ignorant?

Firstly, if you are saying that women travelers should ‘dress accordingly’ – so are you implying that any woman who has been raped in India brought it on herself by how she dressed or was dressed inappropriately at the time? You are victim blaming here which is one of the fundamental problems with attitudes towards rape.

Saying that women are second class citizens is complete rubbish and again highlights your complete ignorance. Women are treated terribly in India. Aside from information on how a women is raped every 30mins in India and many are afraid to come forward as they will be blamed and told they have shamed their families/ruined themselves even though they didn’t do anything wrong – you should also read the below. Killing off of female babies, not feeding females who are born into households/hoping they die, women being sold into prostitution and slavery – the list goes on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20938125

http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf

@ CABK My knowledge of India is from first hand experience not spin I read on western media. All of what you said goes on I am not disputing that. If you can comprehend 1/6 of the worlds population live there, with this goes obvious problems pollution, crime, poverty, injustice, corruption etc. We are lucky to live in a society where this is less prevalent I for one can see the point of continually high-lighting a countries problems. Why not have a story on the Tibetan refugees in McLeod Ganj, Himachal Pradesh,north India where the Dali Lama and his followers where shown mercy and sanctuary, or the success of Kerala and it’s people the most successful communist state in the world. I really don’t need to read articles by journalists and spin-doctors to draw my opinion on a country. I bet you believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, because the BBC reported it. My knowledge comes from first hand experience , I would be happy to discuss any part of India with you I have experienced it, not read about it on a news site written by someone who probably has never been, a bit like yourself.

* Can’t see the point. This article is about a woman who over-reacted and jumped out a window because the owner of the hotel was knocking on her locked door. No doubt she like CABR read the BBC website and thought the worst.

Ok Tony – here is my first question then. If all of what I said actually happens in India (you said it does) – including discrimination of females and widespread rape of females – how can you then claim that women are not treated any differently to men? Do you honestly believe that women in India enjoy the same rights as women in Ireland?

Secondly, are you giving advice to female travelers to ‘dress appropriately’ as you believe that those who did not are those women who have been raped? If not then why give advice on dress code if this is not a deterrent to rape?

And no your ‘bets’ are wrong. I have friends in and from India who do not share your rose tinted view of the country, that coupled with reading literature on India, books on India, reading how foreign office in Britain has updated their travel information advising caution to those travelling in India has led me to a rather less paranoid and more well rounded opinion than your ‘western media corrupting people with spin, tony is the only person who knows the truth’ views.

Additionally Tony – I am not saying India does not have its good points. But I disagree with you that we should ignore issues such as rape and female infanticide, poverty and corruption in India – if the world turns the other way and only publishes articles showing a rosy view of the country then what incentive will there be for India to change for the better?

For example, if the gang rape of that poor student in Dehli was brushed under the carpet and ignored by the media I highly doubt the government would currently be looking at reforming the system to punish rapists how they should be punished.

Your first point I don’t think women are treated the same as Ireland, it is a different culture, religion etc I am not implying it is right, but it is their way. It is changing but like everything it will take time traditional views are hard to change especially in the more rural parts. I never said a woman should dress a certain way not to get raped, I just said using common sense will lessen the chance of harassment, I gave my opinions why this went on, I acknowledge it is a serious problem, which I feel the country is trying to clear up with severe penalties. I am trying to give a balanced view of India, without sounding too arrogant I too have know many Indian people the majority of whom have not really traveled their own country. India is a subcontinent and each state is like a different country. I could spent the rest of my life going there and not see it all. But junk and spin will not deter me from this country. Send me your address and I will send you a postcard from Assam while watching the one horned Rhinoceros through the dawn mist!

While watching a Rhino emerge from the mist in happiness and peace think of how somewhere else in the country a woman is being raped or assaulted against her will, is having her life ruined and will be too afraid to report it for fear of how she will be perceived and punished for something she didn’t do or want. Or continue to bury your head in the sand – whatever suits. I’m fine for a postcard thanks.

Yes, women should not be subjected to anything they do not desire, but that does not hide away the fact that they have to be aware of the places they visit. It’s al well and good to tell a woman the world is her oyster and she can do anything she want etc etc, but that’s just a fantasy feel good type of talk. To tell them to just live without a care in the reality we live in is just doing them more harm than good. Face it, the world is always going to have its nasty corners and people, and if you go there on your high horse, you will get knocked down.

The world is bigger than the known Western world, and like it or not, may have different attitudes to your known ones

By the way, I know this is thejournal and not exactly the best place to raise points of dissent that do not go along with the green thumbed opinions

Tony, no I don’t think you are better equipped to comment on it. Your experiences travelling the country have been as man. I too have visited India, and I loved it. However, there were times when it was also really scary.

And no, I wasn’t “culturally insensitive” in any way, always covered up, never wore a bikini etc. Before I went, I had prepared as I though I would have to do those things to respect India’s culture. What I didn’t realise is that the real reason would be simply to save myself the harrassment.

You’re right, India is so diverse, you can’t paint everyone with one national identity. Some people I met were simply wonderful. But some people were unfortunately pigs and there was often a serious undercurrent of danger. For no other reason than I was a Western woman. Despite the fact that I spent lots of time and money trying to dress appropriately, nor was I travelling with anyone to give “public displays of affection”, my basic human rights were often not respected.

That being sad, India is wonderful, I can’t wait to go back, but it’s hard work and as a woman you have to be so very, very careful, it makes it very hard work. And that is, luckily for you, something you don’t need to ever understand.

@Tony, rape is indefensible, irrespective of the culture under the microscope. It is not tolerated in Western Societies, nor should it in any other. It is not the West trying to force it’s values on others. It’s actually in support of women being treated equally and I’m pretty sure it contravenes the Charter for Human Rights. So please, stop trying to beat the misogynist drum here. RE: your comments on dressing appropriately. I know this story is about a Westerner travelling in India, however, how was the poor Indian girl dressed inappropriately? She was still raped, despite being Indian, and most likely modestly dressed. Specifically regarding my own first hand experience, because my girlfriend was treated so badly, I was unable to enjoy my experience. We did respect the culture, she did not dress inappropriately, as she never does! To somewhat explain the appalling rape statistics by comparing them to other countries, seriously, are you really actually trying to justify rape based on population size? Enjoy India, with your views on the place it really does sound like you should move there.

I pointed this out at the time to a zillion red thumbs and many replies calling me a moron. India IMO used Savitas tragedy to deflect some negativity toward us to take the heat off its own issues and inability to protect women

In all fairness, it’s not only India were horrified by Ireland’s ridiculously outdated abortion legislation. Ireland also made international laughing stock news too for the surrogate Irish child born in India back in 2010 not being able to re-enter Ireland.

And while the Irish and European press are having a field day with rape cases in India, don’t think for one minute that Ireland are shining international lights when it comes to the mugging, raping and murdering of tourists.

Let’s spend more time judging and improving our own pile. The complexities of managing international juggernauts like India, China, Russia don’t compare to this postage stamp.

@ken
Is gang rape imposed on women because of a legal loophole in the Indian constitution?
I think not.

See my vest- same here. Demonised for pointing out the hypocrisy. But such was the fervour around that particular case.

@eamonn- I think Kens point was the hypocrisy of a nation where women are objectified and are in danger on the streets has a neck lecturing Ireland on human rights and equality. It doesn’t matter whether its institutionalised or not.

As Savita was born in India I wouldn’t have expected her unnecessary death due to our muddled system to pass without comment, when they did comment what else did you expect them to say?

If the roles were reversed and, say, an Irish woman died in an Indian hospital under the excuse of it being against their religious beliefs do you really think the Irish and the Irish government wouldn’t have been up in arms about it?

There’s some awful defensive people around.

American has the death penalty, so why should the US complain if their citizens are murdered while abroad?

Ireland treats travellers poorly, so why should the Irish complain when they are badly treated while abroad?

Braindead.

Well you could say the same thing about the entire worlds news system. Bad news makes headlines, unfortunately.

I wouldn’t put it down to subliminal racism or discrimination against India. It’s popular on the news, because addressing the issue of rape and specifically rape in India means alot to people.

Hi Paul,

Sorry to hear that. Just looking for a bit more detail so I can pass to tech…what exactly happens when you are using it?

What device are you using? Have you updated to the latest version of the app?

Thanks
Sinéad

Works first time and every time for me. Paul being unable to use a simple app is hardly the Journals fault.

Sinéad. He could have sent a straight email or at the very least picked a less serious report to vent his thoughts. It shows a lack of respect to discuss ‘faults’ in a report about sexual assault. Im very appointed that you entertained his rant.

Max I didn’t even read the article, I just clicked the top one when I came on. And the bit about my family being disgusted ? Are you alright you seem a little angry?…. yeah I’m using a Google nexus (android latest edition) and yes the app is up to date it just seems to get stuck loading and then it comes up that is has failed and has to restart.

Hardly Sineads fault she’s being nice. Max you need to calm down and stop looking to cause an argument go look for an article about enda Kenny and tell them you think he is great you should find one there.

Then more fool you. You can send an email or write a review. Instead you write FIRST on a report about sexual assault. I don’t relieve you for a second when you say you didn’t know what the report was about. Banner headline, poster, and report. You knew very well what you were doing. Disgusting individual

Max is right Paul. Send an email. Use the large tip / correction button or go to settings and mail from there if you need tech support. And I don’t see max mentioning your family so what are you on about ?

Maybe Paul, your fingers are a tad chubby, check out the new app, it’s brill.

“Relive” what you want Max I really couldn’t care I see you are still trying to start an argument…..good man I hope you are enjoying them green thumbs you are looking so forward to.

Autocorrected. ‘Believe’ and not looking for an argument. You have ABSOLUTELY no sense of propriety I you think what you did was ‘ok’. Finally leave politics out of this by pull be up way past your bed time. I don’t give a shit about red thumbs. I speak my mind when I see the disrespect you showed. Call it what you like ( you will anyway)

If I think what I did was ok ? Did I murder someone or something ? I wrote a comment about the app nothing to do with the article only it was attached at the bottom you made it about the article and you attracted more attention to it then anyone. Ok yeah it was the wrong article to post it under but I was just looking for a reply from the author you could have ignored it or red thumbed it like most people and nothing would have been said of it but YOU brought this attention to it and you are now taking peoples attention away from what the article was about.

Em, calm down.

At the risk of just adding to this diatribe, I think this is appropriate…. http://members.modernvespa.net/belkwinith/uploads/anchorman_well_that_escalated_quickly_966.jpg

The Journal app works brilliantly actually. Been using it over 6 months without ever an issue

I like wholegrain mustard