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Dublin: 16 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Column: Denying Traveller ethnicity makes Ireland a rogue state

Not recognising Traveller’s ethnicity creates a dangerous precedent for every human right- denying government that wants to justify racism, writes Dr Robbie McVeigh.

Mullhuardart Site 1988
Mullhuardart Site 1988

Recently, Deputy Caoimhghín O Caoláin asked if there were plans to recognise Travellers as an ethnic group. Minister Kathleen Lynch said there were no immediate plans to introduce legislation necessary for such recognition, but said that consideration on the issue is ongoing. Robbie McVeigh says this approach by the Irish Government is profoundly flawed.

WHILE ‘EXPERTS’ HAVE different perspectives on ethnicity, it isn’t simply a subjective thing. In law, in fact, ethnicity has some meaning grounded in existing jurisprudence – so a government can’t just arbitrarily say it doesn’t exist. Moreover, individuals cannot repudiate ethnicity – one person can say ‘I am not a Traveller’ but they can’t say ‘Travellers are not an ethnic group’.

In other words, the approach adopted by the Irish government is profoundly flawed – the notion that all Travellers have to decide that they are an ethnic group before Traveller ethnicity is recognised, is simply wrong.  It carries no weight academically or legally.

When the connection between Travellers and ethnicity has been asked in a legal context, the conclusion is that Travellers fulfil the two ‘essential characteristics’ of ethnicity: they have a long shared history of which they are conscious as distinguishing them from other groups, and they have a cultural tradition of their own. If one symbolic piece of evidence of this is required, it is the Traveller graveyard in Westview Cemetery in Atlanta, Georgia.

This confirms that Travellers went to the US in the mid-1800s with an already fully-developed sense of distinct identity. It bears emphasis that no academic or lawyer has ever suggested that the Travellers in the USA aren’t an ethnic group.

Government failure

I think that the denial of Traveller ethnicity by the Irish Government is bad for Travellers.

In 2004, the Irish Government in the course of its reporting to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), declared that Irish Travellers, ‘do not constitute a distinct group from the population as a whole in terms of race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin’. Importantly, this has very negative implications for the rule of international law – ignoring the courts and the CERD has implications far beyond Travellers and Ireland.

In this sense, the Irish position makes us a ‘rogue state’ – ethnicity denial in Ireland creates a dangerous precedent for every human rights-denying government that wants to justify racism or genocide.

In relation to ethnicity, Ireland’s key comparators are England, Wales and Northern Ireland. In England, Travellers are recognised as an ethnic group after the decision in the O’Leary v Allied Domecq 2000 case. In Northern Ireland, Travellers are recognised as an ethnic group in law through the Race Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 .

In the US, Travellers are routinely described as an ethnic group. There is discrimination against Travellers in each of these jurisdictions but there is also protection from race discrimination which is missing in Ireland because of ethnicity denial.

Discrimination

Ethnicity denial is a complex question without a simple answer. The government insisted that it remained committed to challenging discrimination against Irish Travellers and has defined membership of the Traveller community as a separate ground on which it is unlawful to discriminate under equality legislation. This was not meant to provide a lesser level of protection to Travellers compared to that afforded to members of ethnic minorities.

It is also clear that much of the discourse about Irish Travellers in Britain and Ireland is very similar to racialised discourse about groups whose ethnicity and experience of racism is commonly accepted. The term ‘ethnicity’ is also used by many Irish Travellers to make sense of Irish Traveller identity and separateness from settled society.

There is an overwhelming weight of evidence that supports the recognition of Travellers as a specific ethnic group. The continued policy of ethnicity denial by the Irish government flies in the face of all meaningful evidence and has wider negative implications.

Government policy

In short, the Irish government policy on Traveller ethnicity is both perverse and discriminatory. This has immediately negative consequences for Irish Travellers.

They are not afforded the automatic protection of international and regional standards on ‘race’ provided to Irish Travellers in Northern Ireland or Great Britain – this is directly contrary to commitments on equality given in the Good Friday Agreement, the EU Race Directive and the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

We must await with foreboding the first time that a state stands before the International Court of Justice accused of genocide and says, ‘There is no case to answer – it was our view that they were not an ethnic group’.

Robbie McVeigh is researcher and activist. He has taught on racism and anti-racism at Queen’s University Belfast, the University of Ulster and UCD. He has researched racism and ethnicity in Irish society and is the author of many books including The Racialisation of Irishness: Racism and Anti-Racism in Irish Society (Belfast, 1996), Theorizing Sedentarism: The Roots of Anti-Nomadism (Hertfordshire, 1997), Travellers, Refugees and Racism in Tallaght (Dublin 1998) and is co-editor with Ronit Lentin of Racism and Anti-racism in Ireland (Beyond the Pale, 2002).

Read: FF councillor criticised for anti-Traveller comments>

Read: Martin ‘very annoyed’ by Fianna Fáil councillor’s call to ‘segregate’ Travellers>

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Comments (141 Comments)

  • I’d settle for travellers paying some sort of tax, then maybe we can work on recognising their unique ‘ethnicity’.

    • Denying the rights of the settled community is a problem as well but let’s all ignore the rights of the majority.

    • Paul – I think you’ve hit on something very very valid there.

      I have never had to live near travellers and I know that many would say that it makes the rest of my post easy to say so I take that as fair to say…..

      Personally, I think that ethnicity should be recognised. However, the suggestion often with such recognition is that the general public should then recognise that there are differences between the settled and traveller community.
      This recognition of any group as being “different” or “unique” seems to always place an obligation for the majority to be understanding in their recognition. How far should that recognition go? Does it provide a platform for those within a group to use the law (which should protect a minority group from discrimination) to allow that group to abuse the law?

      Such recognition should go both ways. Any ethnic group will recognise that their ethnicity adds to the diversity of the community within which they live. The general public are expected to accommodate through laws on equality – surely any group should be expected to understand something of their locality and society they are in?

  • Before the racist tags start flying. It’s important to note that the traveller community deserve most of the resentment directed towards it. They are racist in nature towards the settled community, which by the way pays for the traveller lifestyle. High levels of criminality are also prevalent. Those are the facts. Throughout my life, and I would say the same for most people, interaction with travelers has been negative. No amount of PC can overcome that.

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      Yeah I too missed the part of the article where some semblance of responsibility was bestowed upon travellers.

    • Will the journal never tire of stoking people into self righteous rage over the trevalling community?

    • @ Damocles, Perhaps this “self righteous rage over the trevalling community” as you put it is down to bad experienes with tavellers, as many of us readers including myself have had a few ‘encounters’ with the little divils, so i can understand folks not liking members of the traveling communty, who by the way dont seem to travel very much these days, except in the dark of night may be.

    • It does seem to be a recurring theme on the site though.

      1. Mention travellers
      2. Self righteous rage
      3. Hits

    • Exactly Mike. It’s based on the average idiots interpretation of anecdotal evidence, with some bias thrown in to form a harsh generalisation on an entire population.

      It’s the reasoning of the masses. Stupidity at its best and a sad reflection on our education system.

    • Ive met many travellers in various places and situations and hand on my heart, id say about 1 in 10 experiences were good/normal ones. And Im a pretty easy going lad.

    • I’ve met people in many different circumstances and places throughout my life. Some of them were unpleasant, some were pleasant, most were somewhere in between.

    • Well put Baalyer. I’ve heard stories about the travellers of old and by all accounts they held the highest of morals and were exemplary people. Now however it’s a completely different story. We work 40+ hours a week to pay for the traveller lifestyle whilst keeping eyes peeled in work for them whilst also worrying about whether our homes will be intact when we get home that evening. I am not saying ALL of them as I do know some lovely families who are settled travellers and I have genuinely not a bad word to say about them. But in saying that, these families aren’t looking for special treatment, they’re just regular non traveller families in their day to day lives. It seems to be the ones who are intent on causing trouble who are fighting for their rights. Well when they have respect for me and what’s mine, I’ll have respect for them!!!!
      Load up the red thumbs. :)
      It’s my opinion and I stand by it.

    • @ Damocles,

      Some other ‘ouch topics; include
      Nurses
      Gardai
      Public service pay and pensions
      Israel
      abortion

    • John, anything that can touch however peripherally on Bondholders.

  • In all honesty, what exactly is there to accept? Had some of them living across the road in government housing while we have a mortgage.. and they were our front garden view! Not only did they party all night long but when your one called for her young son to come home it was akin to a stag belting out the mating call. On top of that they had a fierce interesting hobby of carrying metal pipes and smashing the neighbours windows! Cultured my arse; scourge on normal descent citizens more like. I have yet to meet one single descent traveller.

    • Over many years I have met several travellers in different circumstances and found them all to be extremely decent people and great company. So until you sit down and communicate with a traveller dont stereo type them.
      All crime is wrong regardless of who you are or where you live.

    • The above comment was in reply to another comment which has since disappeared.

    • The above comment was a reply to another Post which has since disappeared.

    • They are the most despised and hated ethnic group in the country, I wonder why that is?
      Oh wait, I know, just look at the voting on posts and the fact that they don’t give a s4ite about the settled community.

    • random 15/02/13 #

      There’s some travellers living across the road from me and they’re grand. The kids are a bit loud and annoying, but that’s hardly the end of the world. Your experience is not universal.

    • Pedro 15/02/13 #

      Well Mr. BuzzB, clearly you have been particularly lucky in your meetings as the general consensus here, and across the country, is that most dealings with the traveling community have been negative.

  • They are not an ethnic group, they’re a separatist group who are a law onto themselves. The majority of which have absolutely zero respect for those around them, yet expect everything handed to them. Ethnic group my arse!!

  • Let’s recognise them as an ethnic group. Let’s do whatever they want us to do for them. What will it do though? They won’t bloody change their ways. They are a thorn in Irish society and a constant problem for a lot of decent shop owners and home owners etc. My granny has plenty of great stories to tell about Travellers back in her day and I believer her but from my own personal experience, I can honestly say I haven’t got one good word to say about them. People don’t resist change, they resist being changed.

  • The author of this, Dr Robbie McVeigh, seems to me, totally detached from the reality of sharing a community with travelers. They are no more an ethnic group than my local football team are. Does anyone have any idea why he would use a picture from 1998 of an old style halting site thats bears no resemblance to the modern multi million euro modern dwellings that are built as halting sites for travelers these days ? Surely Dr Robbie McVeigh is not trying to mislead his readers !!

  • There should be no ethnic groupings just Irish people, why the need for segregation.

  • blah! 15/02/13 #

    Travellers are no more an ethnic group than cure heads.

  • Scarr 15/02/13 #

    I think it says a lot that articles wrote on behalf of travellers always speak of what they should be given or afforded and never of the responsibilities travellers have as part of a modern society. They never address rampant criminality or the gangsterism that has infected their culture. Sexism, homophobia and the position of education and literacy are never addressed. We all know that there are decent travellers but there are far far far too many involved in fraud, violence, drunken behaviour, tax evasion and criminality.

    • Good point Scarr. It is true that manynof these type of article say how the settled community should have to change, why isn’t the travelling community making an effort?

      I know the settled community didnt have to make changes or lay serious taxes when any other Europeans came over? How come I can get on with many africans or arabs or asians with no problem? I didnt have to change my way of thinking about them because the vast majority of my experiences with them do not involve crime or violence.

    • Surely you talk enough about the problems with the traveller community. Maybe you should write an article. I’ll be sure to pass a copy on to the DPP.

    • Oisin do you ever cease in your ridiculous crusade to do good? But you are of that particular set though arent you? Let me guess some airy fairy liberal driven degree in Trinity….

    • I’d love to see such an article too. One that takes more elements in than the criminality angle though.

      There are travellers who do actually make an effort to get work but can’t due to the nature of their lifestyle.

    • Actually I’m a Pyschiatric Nurse

    • EP 15/02/13 #

      Do you think that sexism, homophobia and literacy issues are only issues that affect members of the travelling community?

  • It’s too early in the morning for all this bleeding heart lefty nonsense

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      Any chance that you got the point of that piece? I seemed to have missed it. For me it went something like: travellers are an ethnic group, these lads say they aren’t; you’re racist.

    • I reqd the title then scanned through and read the word genocide.

      That was enough for me

    • The UN has so much to answer for. This is a nonsense idea. It will be used to allow the poverty industry apply for more funding. There are lifestyles that will assure you are not competitive in your environment. Travellers need to be a bit more discerning about what bits of their tradition they want to keep and whether perpetual disadvantage is worth it. Most cultures run screaming from subsistance and marginalisation via education at any cost. That is how humanity progresses.

    • Well said…

    • Never to early to challenge racist goverment lack of action

    • Absolutely Sean. Look after tax paying citizens first.

    • With rights come responsibilities. A large percentage of travellers don’t seem to accept that. Blaming settled society for their health problems is ridiculous when the men seem to spend most of their time either fighting or drinking. Everybody needs to move with the times, travellers need to accept that many of their traditions are not appropriate for the times we live in.

    • Can we all claim ethnicity as rogues so or it that classification reserved for politicians?

  • If the government doesn’t recognise them why are they specified on the census? Ethnicity should be skin colour and place of birth, no more. Lifestyle choices shouldn’t come into it. My ethnicity is White Irish, not Settled White Irish!

  • Absolutely nonsense. Are Aran Island people a distinct ethnic group? Kerry people? This is another example of the hand wringing PC mania currently consuming the victim-hunting ‘Equality’ agenda.

  • I wonder if the travelling community as an ethnicity was recognised would statistics record the amount of crime committed by people of that group?

  • What a load of rubbish, wake up and get real. They are nothing but a burden on society and that is a fact. I’m sick of reading bleeding hearts fairy tales.

  • Travellers complain about discrimination, but never mention the positive “discrimination” they have!
    For example, a traveller can go on a community employment scheme at aged 18, while its aged 25 for the rest….as far as education, there are numerous schemes whereby teachers go to the traveller camps, or a free bus that bring them to school (the free bus scheme was cancelled by govt in last budget), plus free extra tuition, books and uniforms paid for!!!

    Also travellers need to address their “culture” of severe domestic violence, and sexual abuse. They preach and complain about racism, yet need to look at how THEY treat women and children of their community.

    • so do the settled community

    • siobeli 15/02/13 #

      The settled community have issues with domestic violence and abuse, but not to the same extent of acceptance that travellers have.
      Traveller women are treated appallingly by their own community, taken out of school, made marry very young, have child after child, subject to violence. The few brave women that do speak out are ostracised by their own community.

  • Just out of curiosity, does anyone here live either in Rathkeale or it’s environs?

  • Im sick of about traveller rights and entitlements..what about their responsibilities toward society?They are a lawless group who only take and never give..who ever knew that lawlessness would qualify as ethnicity?

  • What a load of codswallop. Travellers are Irish – they are not a distinct ethnic group.

  • A dictionary definition of ethnic uses for signifiers – culture, religion, language, race – to show how a group could be defined as ethnically separate. One out of four, culture, doesn’t seem to justify a strong claim to ethnicity.

  • Why does the term racism kerp being used in discussions about Travellers? They are Irish, not a distinct race. We as a country are allowing ourselves to be manipulated by a small but influential clique of liberal pc do gooders who throw around the racism card like confetti. Travellers are in general nothing but troublemakers and lawless. They destroy neighbourhoods and create a living hell for residents.

  • Travellers are Irish! They are equal before the law and subject to it like everyone else. This nonsensical proposal seeks to create a justification for criminality (i.e. Travellers are different so they should be treated differently to others before the criminal justice system). I don’t believe Travellers should be discriminated against, but there are a significant number of them involved in criminality which always seems glossed over by Pavee Point and other taxpayer-funded advocacy groups.

  • they only want to be declared an ethnic group so they can legally call discrimination when theyre turned away from establishments that dont fancy having to call an entire squad of gardai after an hour.

  • There’s a house on my estate that’s rented to travellers, and since they moved in, they have absolutely no regard for the people living there for years, the area in front of their house is constantly littered and the house appearance has become neglected, they have noisy dogs every other week, and in fact have gone away at different times for a week or so at a time and left the dogs unattended! One of their dogs have bitten several neighbours and the warden has been out but they won’t answer the door, they and their visitors take up car spaces belonging to the other neighbours etc etc… It seems the authorities really don’t stand up for the settled resident who takes pride in their area, and these people behaving in such a manner are just left to their own devices! I really don’t see things changing anytime soon with regards to the integration of travellers with the settled community.

  • Can any of these ‘experts’ please explain how one group of caucasian Irish people are ethnically different from the rest of the same population. The travellers may have their own set of customs or way of life but at the end of the day that’s just it, it’s a lifestyle no more no less, are religious people ethnically different because they choose to live their lives by their religious values, are swingers an ethnic minority because of their lifestyle? The whole notion that the travellers (many of whom never seem to travel very far) are somehow entitled to call themselves and ethnic minority is ridiculous. Why are they seeking to alienate themselves even farther, they already live a segregated life by their own choosing, they certainly don’t endear themselves to the rest of the population with their lawless antics, lack of contribution to the tax system and their constant filth which they seem to think is ok to leave along the roadsides or across playing fields or parks where they pitch up illegally most of the time. Ireland already is a rogue state in many ways it’s certainly not a modern liberal democracy so worrying about a tiny percentage of wannabe ethnics is hardly going to make any difference. better the country sorts out the abortion issue and equal rights for gay marriage than wasting time on the bloody travellers!

  • “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” – Harlan Ellison

  • And it saddens me that an obviously intelligent academic such as the author wastes their abilities on such daftness as this….

  • I must say I like that song called I’m a free born man of the travelling people its a classic.

  • This country is drowning in a sea of supposed culturally aware people…. So much so that it breeds criminality under its heavy disguise of the word ‘Racist’ or ‘Bigot’.. Sad… But true…..

  • Emma, stop.

  • random 15/02/13 #

    If ethnicity does not have a racial component (which I’m willing to accept) then why are race and ethnicity conflated at every opportunity? Why is it “racism”? Why is the law titled “race relations”?

  • Robbie, I think we need to stop rehashing the old adages about the graveyard in Georgia and honestly revisit our colleague John O’Connell’s work ….asking honestly if they have at this stage become merely a “sub culture of poverty”…personally I think they have.

  • Well, I’ve just had all three posts removed. No doubt this one will be the same There seems to be a particularly pro-traveller agenda here on the Journal. Any dissenting post with substance is removed. So much for any form of free speech. I wasn’t trolling so I would like an explination as to why posts that I went to the time and effort to write were sumairly removed. If you want a comments page, then you have to be prepared for the comments that come in. Or perhaps the pro-traveller posters just didn’t like a dose of the truth from someone who has to put up with them day to day had them removed? Just tell me so that I won’t bother wasting my time visiting this website again.

  • The Problem in life is the human race some are good and some are bad,It don’t matter what you call us.I had builders who stole property from me last year and they wasn’t travellers.

  • We should embroider a special emblem into their clothing, to make them easier to recognise so we know to be understanding of their ethic differences.

    Is that where this is all going? (1) they are a scourge on society (2) they are dirty (3) they have loads of money (4) they are stealing from me.

    Where did we hear such talk before?

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      Dunno where. Do tell.

    • Kosovo
      Rawanda
      Nazi Germany

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      Aaaand there it is.

    • Well you asked the question and those are undeniably the attitudes that led to the chain of events that ended with ethnic cleansing in those 3 cases. I can understand why it makes you feel uncomfortable.

    • are you suggesting we wipe out travellers?

    • Could you really not make your point with bringing Godwin’s into it?

    • Godwins law applies to cases where the guilt by association fallacy is applied in the context of nazism. This is not guilt by association fallacy.

    • @kingolaf I think we have to be careful if we are in denial about how rapidly a bad situation can get worse, and how quickly resentment can develop into something more dangerous. Vigilante violence against Travellers; like burning down their homes, is not a civilised solution.

      No doubt the lifestyle of Travellers is upsetting to many ordinary people and affecting their own enjoyment of their own lives. That is not fair.

      So something smarter needs to be thought-out than the simplistic solutions to date. Whatever that solution is, it is going to cost the State a lot of money. One common law for all people and how they affect their neighbours is a start.

      Perhaps a Bill needs to be drafted outlining what specific enjoyments Travellers, or anyone who wants to live a Traveller lifestyle, are to be permitted. There appears to be far too much ambiguity that is readily being taken advantage of.

      As Micheal Martin seems so adept at championing causes from the back seat like how to deal with the Bank Guarantee, How to deal with Abortion, How to deal with the Magdalene Laundries – here is one issue he could be constructive on and show some leadership rather than political point-scoring. Let’s see your Traveller’s Bill Fianna Fail.

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      @jimbo – asked with tongue firmly in cheek as we know right well that it’s in no way going towards that and using the tired old nazi argument is a lazy way of trying to silence an argument.

    • @Scarr explain how the casual hatred of travellers is any different to the casual hatred of jews in the early 1930’s in Germany. The only difference is that no political movement has stepped into the fray to explout this hatred, also there is a very small traveller population by comparison with the jewish population in Germany at the time so the hatred is still seething but is mostly passive.

    • Godwin’s Law!

    • Oisin, I think your view with the treatment of travellers in modern ireland compared to the treatment of jews in 1930s germany is offensive.

      I have never heard of a traveller being beaten to death by roving groups of settled irish. I have never heard of travellers homes being broken into and stolen from. I have never heard of traveller owned business being targeted or their customers intimidated by settled thugs. However I think you can apply all these situations to thr treatment of.the settled community by some travellers.

      At the end the day traveller culture needs to change. Its not the settled one. Travellers need to police there own community to stop the development of an bad reputation. Travellers isolate themselves while other true ethnic groups try their best to be poaitively involved in irish society. Thats why they are accepted more readily than travellers.

    • “Where did we hear such talk before?”

      Cowboy builders.

      Asian cornershop owners.

    • Complete strawman Olaf. Nobody compared the “treatment” of travellers to those of the Jews in Nazi Germany. It’s the attitudes towards travellers that were compared to the attitudes towards the jews in Nazi Germany (and elsewhere).

      We’ve seen what can happen when such attitudes are allowed to go unchallenged.

      Godwins law here is being used as a copout. It is vitally important to learn from the mistakes of history.

    • “Where did we hear such talk before?”

      Post war Commonwealth immigrants to the UK.

    • Jimbo,I’m not being smart with you but in that case you could compare the attitude towards travellers with any group of people over the whole history of human society. Some people from Cork sometimes have an attitude towards Dubliners and so on.

      Besides defining travellers as a separate ethnic group will do nothing to help their community. Realistically it will only further antagonise the settled community.

    • An interesting observation ( well for me anyway) but had Dev allowed Hitler in we would not even be having this conversation now.

  • Any chance we could have a debate about what the article is talking about rather than a hate page for travelers??

    Whether or not the traveler community constitutes a distinct ethnicity is a discussion worth having. If you disagree that they should have that status, then you should try articulating some solid reasons – lest you come across like irrational racist bigots.

    I’m not saying that you are; but ranting and raving about their criminality is completely irrelevant to the current discussion.

    • Unfortunately the criminality aspect influences perception so cannot be ignored. However you are right about the irrational racist bigot comments. We can get caught up in semantics about whether or not they are a different race or not but that isn’t important. They obviously are ‘different’ and the comments here are only backing that up. Nothing disguises the fear, intolerance and hatred being shown which is disgraceful.

    • I think it would be fair if you are asking people as to why they think travellers shouldn’t have a separate ethnic status, that you should give your opinion as to why they should recognised as an ethnic group.

      I think they should not be recognised as a different ethnic group because they do not speak a different language, they have the same skin colour as native irish, they are genetically the same as natives of the british isles and their differences in culture to the settled community is questionable at best.

    • Olaf the travelling community do have their own language you are just to ignorant to know anything about it.

    • Well then Ian free me from my ignorance and educate me on it. Because all I can find is that has there own dialect of irish and as far as I can tell that isn’t a reason for being declared an ethnic minority.

  • Travellers are a separate ethnic group. There was DNA analysis made in the University of Edinburgh and the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin from 40 Travellers around Ireland and Settled people. Travellers separated from Settled People about 1000 years ago. The research recognised the common lineage of Traveller and concluded that the connection between the two was no stronger than that between Norwegians and Icelanders.

    There was an RTE documentary on it called the “Blood of the Travellers” .

  • One of the most notable things I find is that many people in Ireland have inherited their hatred of travellers. It comes from the conservative Catholic mentality that your parents or grandparents had. In such a society you were warned and frightened of anything that didn’t fit into the narrow landowning Catholic prism of society. The travelling community were outside of what the accepted version of Irish society. They did not live by societal norms. In the Ireland of that time we severely suppressed any form of dissent from this way of living. We put children into industrial schools, women into Magdalene Laundries, people who were ‘not quite right’ into mental institutions. The travelling community are just another aspect of the Irish counterculture that has been suppressed. Thankfully, we have learned from our mistakes with women in Magdalene Laundries and children in Industrial Schools. However, we have never accepted our treatment of the travelling community.

    Many of the comments that I have read here are universal to the human race. We are all afraid of the outsider, the person who makes us uncomfortable by living a life different to ours. If you exchange the word ‘traveller’ and replace it with ‘black’ in the United States you will find very similar responses. The African American community as a whole is often seen as dangerous, lazy, and imbued with a culture of crime. It’s the same the world over.
    I’m not expecting people’s opinions to change overnight, the fact that they have been brought up to hate a section of society is hard to remove from people’s minds. However, I do hope that it will be different for our children and grandchildren and we can live in an open and respecting society.

  • Cue streams of relentless generalisations and scorn and evidence of the lowest common denominator in Irish society – the acceptable hatred of Travellers. The comments already posted above and doubtless those to follow show why legislation protecting Travellers from discrimination is needed in Ireland.

    Travellers have not bankrupted the country.

    Travellers have no been before any Tribunals for their fraud and corruption.

    Every section of society has a criminal element. Control for other factors such as level of education received, access to employment etc and Travellers are no more ‘deviant’ than the rest of us. Pointing this out seems immediately to invite accusations of lefty PC nonsense. What is PC about finding blanket hatred towards any group of people unacceptable?

    The usual response to any defence of Travellers on here is ‘try living beside them’, ‘you don’t know them’ etc. I do. I have neighbours, friends and work colleagues (shock! Yes! WORK!) who are Travellers. I have had good and bad experiences with them just like I have with all of my acquaintances. In my life, I have been on the receiving end of criminal acts 6 times – one of those involved a Traveller.

    Why do people think it is ok to hate an entire group of people – including children – particularly when our own experiences of being discriminated against (no dogs, no blacks, no Irish) are still so fresh?

    • Well said Emma.

    • Hate is a very strong word, I don’t hate travellers, I hate their attitude towards the rest of society, I hate that they make people living near them uncomfortable in their own homes, I hate that they get so much handed to them yet give nothing back to society. I really hate when they say people are being racist towards them, they’re not a race!!
      People don’t dislike travellers because they are travellers, they dislike them because of their reputation.
      You mention control for other factors such as the level of education (they are as much entitled to the same education as every other child in this country yet many don’t avail of it), access to jobs (again they have the same access as the rest of us, many traveler men earn plenty of cash, drive flash cars/vans and live in fancy houses/trailers, yet still claim the dole).

    • Well done Emma, a non xenophobic comment, cudos to you

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      For 1% of the population these gentle law abiding souls sure do make a lot of headlines (fraud, robbery, slavery in uk, hatchet fight in a school, samurai swords at a wedding, robbed 2 priests last week, illegal dumping etc etc)

    • Fair point your making, not sure it’s a hate thing, people are more annoyed about calling them an ethnic group and most experiences with them have been a negative one. I have no issue with people wanting to do what ever they want, so if they want to travel around from place to place that’s ok but they need to pay taxes and obey our state law. The issue people would have is that they get special treatment different from settled people, i.e. we discriminate someone from getting an education, a job, a house, etc.., you get my point I hope…

    • Scarr,

      If an article like this resulted in your ethnic group being subjected to the generalisations and hate that we see in thie comments to this article, you’d probably generate a distaste for the perpetrators of that hate too.

      And BTW, either the moderator has fallen asleep at the wheel or the expression fo hatred towards this particular group in our society is socially acceptable.

      If these remarks were about any other ethnic group they would have been deleted by now.

    • All travellers aren’t bad, all ‘settled’ people aren’t bad but can you explain to me why ANY citizen in this country who works, doesn’t pay any tax on their earnings, tax/insure/nct their car/van and draws SC are not held accountable. How long do you think I would get away with that? If you want to be treated as an equal in society, then you have to do as I do and pay as I pay. The taxpayer in this country is now a miniorty. Who protects and speaks up for us? I’m sick to the teeth of the bleeding hearts a brigade. Who’s heart is bleeding for me?

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      @jimbo – I’ve not seen any ‘hate’ directed towards travellers on the thread but have read people’s experiences, opinions and facts. I’ve not read anyone calling for travellers to be exterminated, maybe I missed it. What I would like to see is travellers try and reclaim the good name of their community from where it currently resides in society. That means participation and responsibility on their part. As for the mod issue – seeing as how there is no racial slurs flying around or incitement to hatred I’m glad to see you so radically support the expression of opinions that are not your own jim.

    • Scarr, taking anecdotal evidence applying your bias and projecting it on an entire population is not an example of sound critical thought or intelligence. It’s hate speech.

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      @jimbo – for anecdotal evidence there sure is a lot of it about isn’t there? Worked in retail much? Bar work? Security? Garda? Nursing in a&e? You should hear some of their anecdotes. If you dont want to do that you could always just google some of the news stories in the past 2/3 years. At the end of the day I would like to see travellers develop a good name for themselves in Ireland based off their own hard work and by abiding by the law of the land but there is no point whatsoever in putting your head in the sand and will fully ignoring the extent of the issues in and with traveller life.

    • Well said Emma. Maith thú.

    • I think it is quite clear that the majority of people disagree with your comment. Open your eyes and stop defending criminals who terrorize decent law abiding tax paying people. My home town is destroyed because of these so called ‘ethnic people’ and I can tell you now if you were to talk the way you do to people who suffer by these travellers….unbelievable.

    • Scarr, the travelling community do not do anything that does not happen elsewhere in society.

    • Ah yeah, it’s the majority opinion so it must be right. Appeal to popularity fallacy.

    • Tara, If you have any evidence that anyone is evading tax you should grass them up to the revenue.

    • Should? I do!

    • Tara, excellent.

    • A sensible post Emma – thanks for that

  • If any of the negative comments made on this thread today were made in reference to another ethnic group living in Ireland, not only would the comments be deleted, you wouldn’t get all your green thumbs.
    What a sickening display of hatred.

  • People posting here are very unfair to travellers. It is a matter of respect. The residents in and around Dale Farm in Essex would give you an accurate assessment of the true plight of the misunderstood downtrodden traveller. All you have to do is ask.

    • unfair to travellers….. when they moved into my town the beach became a toilet,they spilled rubbish everywhere,burnt everything they could ley hands on smashed up there own caravans upon leaving i had to rescue a dog they had tied up and left to starve misunderstood downtrodden traveller ….my arse

    • I think you misunderstood me Karen. Look up Dale Farm and you will know what I mean. A picturesque village in Essex was destroyed by these travellers. It took the council 10 years and about £10 million to move them and still they came back. The travellers eventually outnumbered the population of the local beautiful village.

    • And now basildon council are going to build a whole new halting site for the travellers,after spending £18m removing them from land that the travellers had bought themselves,200yds down the same road !!!

    • mattoid 15/02/13 #

      Dale Farm is a good example of how travellers, far from wanting equality, expect to get special treatment. The settled community have to comply with planning laws, so why should the travelling community be treated any differently?
      I’m all for equality, but not a-la-carte equality.

  • The recognition of Travellers’ own unique culture and identity is about recognising diversity.
    If the travelling community were given half a chance by the settled community, we’d have a different situation altogether. Just like in the settled community, systematic disadvantage breeds discontent. Criminality is not their ‘culture’.

    The comments on this thread are absolutely frightening and reflective of a racist and ethnocentric Ireland.

    Stop basing your arguments on one or two bad encounters with Travellers and other people’s (more than likely) embellished anecdotes. Again, just like in the settled community, there are some people who turn to criminal behaviour for a myriad of reasons, not because of an ethnic background.

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      Stop basing your arguments on an idealised view of the world then. Most of the negative sentiment on here is, I would imagine, due to negative experiences with multiple members of that group compounded with the multiple media reports for a group that is just 1% -think about it -1% of our population! Who have 84% unemployment! I think a large swathe of Ireland would be happy if the rules ( both legal and societal) were obeyed by them. Live in a caravan, have all the cultural diversity you like but don’t have it impact on the rest of us. Oh and pay your taxes.

  • The majority of the posts on this article prove why we need to recognise the ethnicity of Travellers. Fairplay to anyone who posted here to challenge the sick and hateful consensus.

  • Sickened by some of the comments on here that are tantamount to overt calls for genocide. The nazi comment wasn’t lazy but a wake up call to an emotionally charged reaction with no thought to where this might lead. What bothers me here is the hatred and vitriol being spat out.

    The issue as I see it is with authorities lack of balls to deal with criminal activity because of who the group are. A crime is a crime and should be dealt with as such. There should be no hiding from that whether you are part of an ethnic group or not. This failure to deal with it leads to the hatred coming forth. I don’t see this as an excuse for the some of the disgusting attitudes portrayed here, but it doesn’t help.

    Also, why is being a member of the traveling community explicitly named as one of the grounds of discrimination in the equality act? You can’t decide on a legislative basis to identify a group separately in one area and say they are no different in another. It leads to confusion and anger.

    Essentially there are issues with the behaviour of the traveller community and these need to be dealt with. Sick of politicians and authorities being scared to deal with it. Grow some balls and stand up and say I don’t give a f@€& who they are, they broke the law, and deal with it appropriately. Maybe then there might actually be a change to behaviours.

    As for whether or not they are an ethnic group, I think the comments on here actually feed into and back up the argument that they are.

  • Segregation is a whole different kettle of fish. The recognition of Travellers’ own unique culture and identity is about recognising diversity.
    If the travelling community were given half a chance by the settled community, we’d have a different situation altogether. Just like the settled community, systematic disadvantage breeds discontent. Criminality is not their ‘culture’.

    The comments on this thread are absolutely frightening and reflective of a racist and ethnocentric Ireland.

    Stop basing your arguments on

    • Nonsense! Where I live in Surrey every playground, public games area and public open space has to be surrounded by a trench or bollards in order to keep these ‘ethnic’ people from colonising it overnight and moving on in a few weeks leaving their detritus behind them. They know they are without the law of the land and should be treated so.

  • Wherever your personal view towards the behaviours of Travellers you have met/witnessed/heard about that doesn’t change the argument here about ethnicity. This man is an expert in the area of ethnicity and race and none of the comments I have read actually dispute his arguments in relation to Travellers being an ethnic group.

    • Define an Ethnic group?

    • Scarr 15/02/13 #

      They are no more an ethnic group than the McCarthy dundons. But to be honest, I don’t care if they are or are not a separate ethnic group – remain in education, get a job (84% traveller unemployment), stop robbing and anti social behaviour ( 9% of prison pop.), pay your taxes and enough with the handouts. Simple. I harbour no animosity but I do expect each community to pay their way and the travellers have been on the take for too long.

    • What arguments? What evidence? It’s just his opinion. He’s wrong. End of.

    • Just in case you miss my comment below. A dictionary definition of ‘ethnic’ uses four signifiers – culture, religion, language, race (as in distinct physical type) – to show how ethnicity can be recognised. Defining ethnicity by using only one of them – culture – seems a weak claim.

    • Just because he has a doctorate doesnt mean he is correct

    • Les, travellers have a very long history in Ireland, they also have language which although almost extinct have produced words which are common traveller parlance. Many on here who have had terrible hateful things to say about travellers have referred to them as an ethnicity in their diatribes. If culture and language isn’t enough to be an ethnicity then Irish people as a whole couldn’t be considered one FFS

    • Scarr, men in Ireland make up 96% of the prison population – anything to say about that?

    • Ethnicity is a makey-uppey concept anyway. I’m surprised we still go along with it at all, let alone try to shoehorn new groups into it.

    • I did note the author added history to culture as “overwhelming” evidence of ethnicity but separating cultural history from the contemporary culture it created seems to be double counting to make his point. One could just as easily define Protestants in Ireland as an ethnic group on that basis. Plenty of history and a strong sense of group identity.
      Would recognition of Travellers as an ethnic group improve their standing under Equality law? The article doesn’t make a clear case on that. If the existing legislation falls short in protecting Travellers from discrimination then surely it would be more effective to lobby for augmenting existing law than pursuing recognition of ethnicity particularly when it wouldn’t protect them from the antagonism of commenters here.

    • I’ll go off and live the life of a hermit, create a set of customs for myself to live by and create my own language. Can I be my own ethnic group now?

  • Maybe because people like you feel it is totally acceptable to call traveller “tinkers”. Oh and I’m sure a lot of africans would have stories about racist abuse.

  • Is it illegal to deny the holocaust?