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Troika forced Ireland into repaying €1bn AIB bond – Quinn

Ruairí Quinn says the Troika are the only people who will affordably lend to Ireland – so what they say goes.

03/10/12 9,143 Views 102 Comments

EDUCATION MINISTER has said that the government was forced to repay €1 billion to the holders of unsecured bonds in AIB because of the insistence of the EU-IMF Troika.

Taking Leaders’ Questions in the Dáil this morning, Quinn said the state of the national finances meant the Troika was the only lender who would give Ireland the money it needed to run its services at an interest rate Ireland could afford.

“We have borrowed, so far this year, €11 billion. €11 billion. For the first nine months of this year. And there’s probably going to be another €4.5 billion,” Quinn told the technical group’s Richard Boyd Barrett.

“There is nobody else in the world that will lend us this money at rates we can afford.

“The terms of the deal that we have – with the only group in town that will lend us the money – is that we cannot burn the bondholders,” he said.

Boyd Barrett had commented that the repayment of the bond, coupled with the continuing debacle over the allocation of primary care centres, was “reminiscent of the Fianna Fáil sleaze you would have denounced a couple of years ago”.

Quinn responded:

You and I share some things in common. We come from the same spectrum of the ideological politics of this country.

Even Leon Trotsky agreed with Lenin when they went into government that a new economic policy was necessary to overcome the crisis before they could get on the path of righteousness.

Quinn had earlier dismissed questions from both Billy Kelleher, representing Fianna Fáil, and Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams about Reilly’s relationship with the owner of a site in Balbriggan which is being earmarked for the development of a primary care centre.

The site had been “by Deputy Mary Harney when she was minister for health,” Quinn said, to raucous cheers from the government side of the house.

Read: Reilly to give Dáil explanation over primary care centres today

More: AIB to increase mortgage interest rates by 0.5pc

About the author:

Gavan Reilly
@gavreilly
gavan@thejournal.ie

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Comments (102 Comments)

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  • Kerry Blake 03/10/12 #

    Borrowed €11 billion and have paid €18 billion out to bondholders this year. Someone’s making a killing and it isn’t Ireland.

    Reply
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    • Paul Furey 03/10/12 #

      So the bond holders and the troika have the same masters. Some nasty feckers are not being hurt at all.

      Reply
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    • Gavin McGuinness 03/10/12 #

      We’re being bled dry and we’re doing nothing about it.

      Reply
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    • Jason Bourne 03/10/12 #

      @Paul. they are one of the same.
      Thats the scam.
      Double interest.

      Reply
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    • The Avarus Animus 03/10/12 #

      They are in there cheering, point scoring,having a laugh and getting exorbitant wages…great oul’ craic while the rest of us are struggling……

      Reply
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    • Paul Furey 03/10/12 #

      Lads were a sorry bunch. None of us will do anything about it and those shites know that!

      Who has the drive and charisma to get the public going. It cant be a politician as not one can be trusted. How can we be like the Greeks, Spanish and Icelanders? What group psyche is keeping us from reacting rather than posting a rather severe comment online.

      Sheesh we are a bunch of spineless gits :(

      Reply
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    • Paddy Rodgers 03/10/12 #

      Kerry
      Do you never get tired of the same ad nauseum chant about the Bondholders . Did you listen to a word of what Minister Quinn said today. Do you believe him to be a dishonest person in his contribution on this issue and what would you say to comfort those caught up in the complete economic collapse that would ensue from what you’re really demanding which is a default?
      When you look at the debacle faced by the Guiney workers who have no pension after thirty to forty years of work and contributions what would you say in atonement if that were to happen to the entire economy because of your “misunderstanding” of economics and political realities. We’re you the child that always said no and thus failed to see the balance necessary in any situation where your cards are poor at best. Are you the sort who regularly waged the family income across the bookies counter in the certain knowledge you were right and knew a winner when you saw it.?
      My suggestion Kerry is that the distraction that you and your friends are trying to offer is counter to the National interest because you simply want to pull the house down around us with your Magic Economics. You offer no solutions but disaster and it has become tiresome.

      Reply
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    • Jack Daniels 03/10/12 #

      Our problems will soon be global this is only the tip of the Iceberg.The Banking Cartel banks around the world have ilfiltrated Governments that were once Capitalist Democratic countries that had soveriegn wealth.The banking system was built on the idea of lodgment and security for the client they charged a transaction fee basically a safe house to gaurd the individuals and nations wealth.It is only when Banks started making money for themselves using the wealth of the nation and customers that the evil begun and i say evil because of the Wars Starvation and oppression and gross abuse of basic human rights they have presided over.If we really want to find the core of the problem then we have to start looking at the Investment Banks and the guys that run them.They have manipulated Govrernments and started Wars all under the cloak of invisibility.It is quiet easy to find out the CEO,S and major shareholders of all these large Investment Banks.It has become quiet obvious that Government is only a smokesreen for the policies of the major Banks around the world .Enda Kenny Bertie Aherne Brian Cowan are puppets that implement Banking Policy puppets that do the dirty work and take the heat when CEO Banking policy is set upon the people.Like our and other puppet Governments the problem is not in the idea of Government itself but the people who run the Government.The same applies to The Banking System we need banks but Banks that are not run by self facillatating sociopaths on such a quest for MONEY & POWER that they are prepared to tear society apart from thde inside out.Barak Obama only recently held a banking reform crisis conference in Wall Street and not one head of the banking sector in Wall Street showed up that says something.All we see now is in front of us is the Brainchild of the heads of Wall Street Banks and Large European Banks and the sooner we start identifying these all i can say is NUTJOBS as the core problem then we will only hop from one Government to another and nothing will really change the system is dying and needs to be purged remember all these guys are flesh & blood nothing else conformity is their power.Enda Kenny will never stand up to them he is a little monkey that does their dirty work.Icelandic people recognized who the real Villans were and they purged them out of their country we can do the same by just having the will to find out and do something .Start with finding out why your really being robbed out of existance.And by who.

      Reply
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    • Paul donovan 03/10/12 #

      Thought d exact same thing. We are borrowing to pay d bond holders. So why borrow at all and burn d bond holders ? Sounds a bit simplistic but sounds like troika are the only ones we can borrow from but on the same token, they are telling us where we must spend this money to no benefit to the Irish people but to the benefit of unsecured bond holders. These same bond holders(gamblers)are still winning even though the horse they back years ago died at the first hurdle. Wonder if paddy powers pays out on loosing bets ?

      Reply
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    • Kerry Blake 04/10/12 #

      Paddy Rodgers, have a look at Iceland’s story and come back to me. Seriously do you ever ever get tired of paying back someone else’s debts or do you think its your right / fate? BTW I have never entered a bookies premises and I would NEVER bet my countries future in a bookies. You on the other hand are quite content to sell my countries future and more to the point my children’s future down the drain.Magic economics again Paddy check out Iceland’s story and come back with some sort of reasoned response.

      BTW looking at the thumbs up / down at my original comment I’d suggest you are totally out of touch with peoples thoughts.

      Reply
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    • Doc Benway 04/10/12 #

      I’m no apologist for labour’s failed attempts in government, however this maybe a rare statement of truth. In fact a dead man signed us all up for this deal and the deal is binding. Let us never forget that FF got us into this mess. What galls me is the current governments continuation of what amounts to a gross fraud. The loyal opposition continue the merry dance and we all stand watching.

      Reply
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  • Robbie Kelly 03/10/12 #

    Baa baa Irish sheep
    Have you any wool
    Yes Enda yes Enda
    Three bags full
    One for the troika
    And one for the gravy train
    And one for the bondholders without any name

    Reply
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  • Andrew Brennan 03/10/12 #

    The bank guarantee was based on lies by the bankers. That, to me, makes it null and void.

    Reply
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    • Doc Benway 04/10/12 #

      I would agree. While it may not be possible to undo the bailout deal, at very least it could be expected that those lying bankers guilty of fraud should face some form of prosecution for their crimes.

      Reply
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  • Ken Byrne 03/10/12 #

    AIB pay unsecured bond holders 1 Billion and next day raise interest rates which will affect 70,000 already stressed out mortgage holders.
    We will continue to “give out”, complain but in truth it will not really make any difference to the faceless bureaucrats in Europe and the spineless politicians, bankers and civil servants whom we entrusted to run our country.

    Stop What Are You Doing? It is time for action!

    Reply
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    • Mark Noonan 03/10/12 #

      indifference is rampant. Money being wasted and we do nothing……if this is the new Ireland god helps us becos the politicians will ride us until our dying day…….let me know if you organise such a thing and ill meet you with the chains outside dail eireann

      Reply
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    • Ken Byrne 08/10/12 #

      @Mark – Just set up http://www.swyad.com – its rough at the moment but honest.
      Also FB http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-What-You-Are-Doing/292738247507609

      Reply
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    • William McNally 09/10/12 #

      All joking aside, the people of this country need to wake up and smell, “not the roses” but the sh*t that the last government, this government, the banks, bondhloders and troika have got you in. As with most countries, you may be spending more than you are taking on at the moment, but in reality you are borrowing from the bondholders to pay back the bondholders. Every year, countries borrow to cover running costs and overspending (that’s how the feckin world goes around). Iceland is a prime example, they went bankrupt first, they declined a bailout, sacked the government, burnt the bondholders, devalued their currency by about 60%, exports went up (obviously because their products were the cheapest going) production increased, jobs were created, people started earning again. After one year their credit rating was upgraded. all you in ireland should have done was, basically the same, burnt the bondholders and brought back the punt, you’d be in the same boat as iceland now. Why didn’t this happen?…A spineless government who “by the way” have the gall to pay themselves the highest salaries in europe. The people in Northern ireland brought the six counties to a standstill back in ’74, the people in Ireland should do the same, there’s no point in 10-20 thousand people marching on dublin. you need atleast a million. Granted social welfare is over generous in Ireland, but the cost of living is one of the highest in europe, both have to come down together. And don’t forget the amount of tax levies you pay here: €40 on credit cards, €10 on debit cards 60-70% on fuel, 2-3% on insurance,upto 7% universal social charge on wages levy on your electric bills, high prsi, and now a €100 household charge due to atleast treble after the budget. Where is all this money going, it’s not all going to run the country. Funding was cut to local government based on a reliance of the property tax being paid, this cut funding will be re-directed to pay the defict due to cover the bondholders. Apparently one local council met to discuss next years budget, and their first priority was to set aside €300k to cover their expenses for 2012, then decide that because not all property tax was paid, they would have to cut services due to lack of funding. i must say that they got their priorities right, just like your government. WHO GOT IT RIGHT? Iceland ir Ireland

      Reply
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  • CSEC BIO 03/10/12 #

    Is it just me but if we kept the 18Billion we would not need to borrow the 11?

    I know that people will say the banks need the cash to function, but they are not lending and they are getting extra money by increasing interest rates. So are we now paying at least twice for the banks?

    The real issue is that none of the politicians want the Troika to shift focus off social welfare payments, because the question then becomes why do Irish parliamentarians get paid more than their EU pay masters parliamentarians. Enda and co. don’t want to go there, instead they are more than happy to cut social welfare and raise taxes on PAYE workers to avoid inflicting pain on themselves and their friends. Also why did they get any expenses for August not to mind 750, 000+ Eur worth?

    Reply
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  • Eoin O'Beara 03/10/12 #

    But weren’t Iceland given the same options? They burnt the bondholders and got rid of their government and are now out of a recession. (correct me if I’m wrong)
    Our government are a bunch of “yes” men and women to the troika, they are just trying to stay in power long enough to get the (big fat) pension.

    Reply
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    • Christopher Gardiner 03/10/12 #

      Exactly. But our government are gutless and won’t do it,. Iceland had courage.

      Reply
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    • Luke McDermott 03/10/12 #

      Iceland also have their own currency. There is no telling what would happen if we pursued the same policy.

      Reply
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    • mcbab 03/10/12 #

      It wasn’t that simple for Iceland. People lost savings, pensions etc. do your homework.

      Reply
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    • Kerry Blake 03/10/12 #

      Icelandic government came up with solutions for those things mcbab. Just like they revalued the Iclandic housing market. Again Iceland has dropping unemployment and access to the international money markets. They went belly up at the same time as we did. We are still stuck in the doldrums with no sign of anything happening to improve our situation…..

      Reply
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    • Paddy Rodgers 03/10/12 #

      Eoin
      I will correct you. You are totally wrong. Iceland is in a mess they can only recover from if they join the EU and get handouts. Where did you get the idea they have recovered?

      Reply
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    • Dave O'Hanlon 03/10/12 #

      @Paddy. Icelands recovery has been mentioned quite a bit over the last year or two

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    • Colie 03/10/12 #

      Iceland did not have to deal with the EU. That is where the issue comes in. The IMF have been pretty favourable to our situation and the need to reduce the burden but the ECB and EU commission have been the ones looking to protect Germany and French institutional investors.

      Reply
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    • Kerry Blake 04/10/12 #

      Jesus Paddy Rogers. Iceland is in a mess? The country who went belly up at the same time as us. Really your appear to have access to the internet try doing some research on Iceland. You know the country were unemployment is dropping and they unlike us have access to the international bond markets. Where did you get the idea they haven’t recovered?

      Reply
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  • John Greene 03/10/12 #

    Very very interesting article from Aljazeera, back on the 30th May, explaining how what our leaders did and continue to do, is completely and utterly daft.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/05/201252874716394428.html

    This is just one of many reports on Iceland’s recovery. Politicians in Ireland and Europe only have one agenda, it’s really that simple.

    Reply
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  • Emlyn Grant 03/10/12 #

    We borrow 11 billion. Paid out 18 billion to the unsecured bonholders and then blame child benefit on our deficit. That was some pen revolution we had………

    Reply
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  • Coddler O Toole 03/10/12 #

    The primary reason that we cannot finance our budget deficit is because we bailed out the banks. Most countries including Ireland have a budget deficit most of the time. They finance the difference by borrowing the money in the market. Even in the depths of the 1980s recession, Ireland was always able to go to the market until Brian Lenihan bailed out the banks in 2008. The markets began to realise that Ireland would not be able to cover the massive banking losses and pay them back and so the interest rate they demanded rose to an unaffordable level.
    This pushed us into the hands of the ECB/IMF who now lend us the money (with interest) so that we can pay the banking debt as well as our budget deficit which ensures that the financial speculators suffer no losses. In addition, they attach onerous conditions to the money they lend to us demanding cutbacks, tax increases and new taxes so that the debt burden will be borne by the people.

    The direct capital that has been injected into the banks to date is €65 billion. On top of this is NAMA which has taken €72 billion worth of bad loans off the banks balance sheets. We will be very lucky if we recoup 50% of this, so let’s say another loss of €35 billion. That leaves a conservative estimate of €100 billion which has been extorted from the Irish people so far.
    If we stop trying to pay the astronomical illegitimate banking debt and are reimbursed for the €100 billion+ that has been wrongfully stolen from us, then the markets will lend to us again at a reasonable rate as we are a perfectly viable economy without the private debt millstone.

    None of the above quantifies the indirect damage done to our economy by the banking collapse. The banks have not been providing the normal flow of credit to the economy for the past 4 years and thousands of viable businesses have folded as a result. The tax revenue from these businesses has been lost and many of their former employees are drawing social welfare delivering a double blow to nation’s finances. This destruction of the real economy is responsible for a subtsantial part of the €15.5 deficit figure estimated above.

    So the banking collapse and subsequent bailout is responsible a for good portion of our budget defict and also our inability to finance that deficit.

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  • ThePeople OfIreland 03/10/12 #

    Borrow money to pay back debt. This is exactly what the federal reserve do in the states. Worthless paper (bonds) issued by government to receive worthless paper (dollars) from the reserve all with added debt. Borrowing money to pay back unsecured bond holders who are in fact the same people in the troika. This is a scam. This is a contrived economic crash so the very se people who cause the crash can come in pose as our saviours then enslave us in the NWO agenda all the whole

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    • Patrick Behan 03/10/12 #

      My wife and i work we pay taxes more than rent on house a month but yet my wife suffers in pain for days with a chronic bowel disease cause some times we cant afford medication if we didnt work and didnt pay taxes we would get medication for free on medical card and get our rent paid and get dole and what ever else

      Reply
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  • Christopher Gardiner 03/10/12 #

    So the cowards hadn’t the balls to stand up to them and say do your worst we’re not propping up your failed euro and we will burn the bondholders. See that requires courage. Gutless cowards will say thats not courage that madness where will we get money. There are many able commentators out there who have listed many places where we could get funds but our cowards are incapable of any courage so they cringed and backed down.

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  • Dermot Mc Loughlin 03/10/12 #

    Remind me again why we elected these cowards who told us they would go to the troika and state without reservation that this is a new government with a mandate elected to undo the deal FF sold us out with?

    Reply
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  • Mark Dalt 03/10/12 #

    Fine Gael: you are GONE at the next election.

    Reply
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  • Paul Mallon 03/10/12 #

    lol, that’s it, I give up.

    Reply
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  • Pierce2020 03/10/12 #

    Why don’t we just hand over the big chequebook to the Troika then, at least we wouldn’t have to pay people to produce a budget, we could just be good little people.

    Reply
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  • Stephen Redmond 03/10/12 #

    tell them to get lost and nationalise our oil and gas play hard ball and grow a pair. labour and fine gael make me ashamed to call them my countrymen

    Reply
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  • Tim O'Halloran 03/10/12 #

    It should be asked:

    If it later comes out that the Troika had not forced the payment, could not enforce the payment , for legal reasons, and the Government is paying the unsecured in a misguided rush to get back to the markets before 1916, then would Mr. Quinn agree that anyone on the Government side found to be telling lies on these issues, should they be charged with treason , if they have have been lying to us for our own good?

    Reply
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  • Ken Byrne 03/10/12 #

    @Mark Noonan
    Stop What You Are Doing
    Irish Government stand up to Europe. Stand up to our banks. Stand up to Troika. Stop What You Are Doing.

    Our banks, realise the errors of your ways. Accept responsibility for this mess. Stop What You Are Doing.

    Suicide in Ireland claims more lives than motoring accidents and cancer victims combined. For those whose lives have been destroyed by the financial meltdown and who maybe contemplating suicide – Wait, Reach out. Stop What You Are Doing.

    We do not know how to demonstrate in Ireland? We cannot seem to be able to organise mass peaceful protests?

    The Plan : At a preselected date and time, the Irish workers, unemployed, school children, university students and our old aged pensioners -Everyone. Stop What You Are Doing for 15-30 min.

    Reflect and congregate with your friends, family, neighbours or workmates onto the street where ever you happen to be.

    What we need : support from Irish media and press. The Unions, SME’s, employers, mothers and probably most importantly our OAP’s whom seem to be the only one’s who can organise themselves. Everyone!

    If the Irish people unite, show our strength and commitment for this short period of time I am positive it will shake our government into taking the right measures. To prevent our country sinking into the mire and destroying families through suicide and emigration.

    If successful and enough ordinary people demonstrate this very simple way of protest, the possibilities are endless?

    Just bought domain name SWYAD.com – coming soon!

    Reply
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  • Don Booker 03/10/12 #

    Hiding behind anything in order to take the heat off themselves. Election ‘promises’ are not lost on everyone. These bunch – the highest paid implementers in the world. ‘Cause politicians they are not!

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  • Dave Kavanagh 03/10/12 #

    Ruairi. the mathamatics of the answer do not add up. Minister for Education should know the 11 – 18 is still a big minus number. Ireland needs to deal with this dept yes but from a position of a country that the troika need and rely on to lead the way in dept resolution. Its time our government learned the difference between negotiation and just simply saying yes.

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  • Ru Ni Digs 03/10/12 #

    I’m starting to come around to the idea that Eamon Gilmore was misquoted during the election.I think what he really said was “Labour say, Frankfurt’s way.”

    Reply
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  • Slap'stick Ireland 03/10/12 #

    Start printing the punt again, we don’t need a dictatorship such as troika who are clearly bullying the people of Ireland. Idiot government

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  • Biggins31 03/10/12 #

    Forced?

    Can this government please find its own set of balls please?

    Reply
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  • Emmet 03/10/12 #

    We need to as a nation act on this now to save what’s left for the future. Nationalise our Oil an Gas or drastically increase the tax take on it, it’s there and we need to act on it.

    We need serious reform in this country right across the board,parliament to social welfare

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  • Paddy BeBop 03/10/12 #

    Forced? FORCED?

    We are a sovereign nation.

    Time for the creation of a true workers republic like the lads in 1916 envisaged.

    RISE UP PEOPLE!

    REVOLUTION TIME!

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  • Brian Houlihan 03/10/12 #

    Mr.Noonan what if the trokia asked us jump off a cliff

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  • hughsheehy 03/10/12 #

    I used to think that Ruari Quinn was quite sensible, but if he claims to be from “the same spectrum of ideological politics” as Richard Boyd Barrett then I’ll have to seriously reconsider.

    Reply
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  • Tommy Byrne 03/10/12 #

    burn the bond holders and tell the troika to stick there money. We be better off not being able to borrow the money anyways

    Reply
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  • Sasha Musgrave Travers 03/10/12 #

    The answer is to back to the punt, and leave the euro.

    Reply
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  • Harry Murphy 03/10/12 #

    We elected a crappy Goverment to run this country. Not any unelected Eureopean Money Groups. Get out if you are not in charge of this Country. Stop giving our money to losers & creepy cronies.

    Reply
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  • John Scully 03/10/12 #

    If its the case that the government have to be told what to do, then I suggest they should all resign and save us from paying their exorbitant pensions.

    Reply
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  • censored 03/10/12 #

    Mr Quinn, did you ever hear of the concept of “free will” or are you just a puppet? This “explanation” does not wash, you were elected by the people of Ireland not appointed by the Troika as an overseer/PR mouthpiece.

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  • ThePeople OfIreland 03/10/12 #

    While they turn people into zombies through fluoride in the water, GMO in our food exploding the cancer rate and the media all they who by the way are owned by the same people who are enslaving us say don’t worry about anything all is good the X-factor is on on Saturday night

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  • Frank2521 03/10/12 #

    It is typical of our government to pay the BONDHOLDERS the day it is due when people on illness benefit must wait at least 6 months and longer to get invalidity pension. The sick suffer under this government and some commit suicide as a result of despair at our government and lack of hope. If it was a delay in the passport office for holiday makers it would be sorted out quickly. If you are sick you can go to hell.

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  • Gary Moran 03/10/12 #

    Down with this sort of thing……………… !!

    We are a great nation of talkers, come on sites like this and complain every single day about our economic situation, but then do absolutely nothing about it!!! I am sure even the troika get a good laugh out of it ”ah sure once they have their alcohol, they will take whatever medicine we give them”!
    The irony of this situation is, if they put €1 onto the price of a pint in the next budget, most of the country would be out on the streets marching to the Dail in their thousands! at least we have our priorities right in this country :)

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  • Donal Lynch 03/10/12 #

    I wonder was it them that told the government to put up the price of gas electricity train buses and AIB rates just before they take the lot to sell.

    Reply
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  • john clarke 03/10/12 #

    If all the hyperbole is removed and we look at everything in fairly basic terms it seems more than a little logical to say that if we default on our debts that we will find it difficult to borrow more. Its a bit like Mick Wallace asking for the loan of a few pounds until payday, where would he go for it? who would give it to him with his past record? I accept that the workings of international finance are a little more complicated than that but the basic principal remains the same.

    If we could get our house in order and balance our incoming and outgoings then we can tell everyone to where to stuff their debt. Until that day comes and we can fund the running of the state from its own resources we will just have to accept whats being dumped on us. Despite what Gerry Adams, Richard Boyd Barrett and anyone else tell us, this is the reality of the situation. It worries me that the last time that we tried to do that was under Dev and it didn’t work then.

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  • Ian Mullen 03/10/12 #

    Where is Michael O’Leary when we really need him?

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  • Gary Madden 03/10/12 #

    Where do our Icelandic friends borrow their state funds from nowadays and at what rate?

    Reply
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  • Eoin Ryan 03/10/12 #

    dont worry people just pay d tax and get on with life. negitave coments are only bringin down moods in d country..
    SAVING THE COUNTRY ONE PAY CHEQUE AT A TIME

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  • Killian shaw 03/10/12 #

    Reading these comments I think, bearing in mind the gravity of the situation this country is in we need to restrict those who can vote. I propose three questions:
    1. Do you believe that by telling the EU to feck off, the magical pixie fairies will come, remove our debt and all our problems will be solved? Yes/No?
    2. Do you honestly believe it was a small group of bankers who ruined this country as opposed to a significant segment of the population who lost the run of themselves? Yes/No?
    3. Is Roy Keane right. No matter what he says? Yes/No.

    If you answer yes to any of these questions, sorry- you’re voting privileges are revoked. Try the North. If you answered yes to question 2 and indignantly thought to yourself “I certainly didn’t”, you are not allowed vote or have children. If you voted yes to all three you are Roisin Shortall. You should be out finding a job.

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  • Dan O'Connor 03/10/12 #

    W**kers

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  • Damocles 03/10/12 #

    Let’s be honest, if you did stand up and reclaim your country for yourselves you’d probably hand it over to someone else 10 minutes later.

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