Patitas, sure the pro-life crowd don’t care about the mothers so what does that matter to them?

If that’s true then why were the majority of the 30,000 supporters at the pro-life gathering 3 weeks ago women and many of them mother themselves? Or is that you think they’re too stupid to understand the issue they feel so strongly about?

Yes they are too stupid well said

Ok, fair enough. Can I ask whether you yourself are stupid and if not why? Is it because you are well read? Have a degree? I’m honestly interested what makes these people’s opinions stupid and your own not.

@Hippocrateeth, people on either side of this argument feel strongly on the issue. Is it not then wise to offer a legislative choice to those in immediate danger?
The vitriolic assertion that this will lead to ‘abortion on demand’ is flawed. The legislative framework will not allow for this.
Bodily integrity is a human right that is stripped away in this country when a woman (or her baby) is close to death (and dead).

Hippocrateeth, your comment makes no sense.

Lack of legislation on this very important issue has meant that women have no real options in this country and if suicide is seen as a option by a women she’s may opt for this over the option of a non-existent abortion.

Numbers at any sort of “pro life” gather don’t change the situation one bit, of course statistically you’ll have some pregnant women or mothers that are pro-life. the exact same as statistically you’ll have pregnant women and mothers pro-choice. This makes your comment completely invalid and off-topic in relation to Patitas’s comment.

Regardless of the support by women mothers for the so called “pro-life” agenda it doesn’t change the fact that lack of legislation means that suicide has been and still is seen as a option for women in certain situations…..

Once again you’ve ignored the life of the mother, so yet again a pro-lifer misses the point and cares little about the life of the mother, good job!

as i have learning difficulties which i have said many times on journal so yes maybe i am a bit stupid but not brainwashed dont like abortion dont have one.

I was responding to your comment barry, that’s probably why it seems ‘off topic to patitas’ comment’.

Hippocrateeth, ok so.

But it still makes no sense, the very fact you simply want to ignore these women by not legislation shows you don’t give a monkeys about them. It doesn’t matter if you have men, women or dogs cats supporting the pro-life agenda….the mothers life isn’t as important as the fetus in your eye’s.

Unless of course you support the position put forward in a recent Irish Times letter which suggested taking them into “care” and thus forcing them to go through with a pregnancy that they see the only way out of is by killing themselves……after all, doing that to pregnant women has worked soooo well in the past!

@ Kieran
‘ The legislative framework will not allow for this’
Big statement there Kieran. Maybe with you’re obvious superior legislative knowledge you’d like to explain exactly how.

30,000 lol.

There is a big difference between giving a woman a life saving treatment which could result in the death of the unborn and having abortion available freely in a country…
The best treatment available that what “prolife” folks want, that’s what everyone wants, not intensional abortion…
Legislate for that..
Give the money for doctors, psychologist, hospitals, staff that they waste foolishly elsewhere ….
Even the top doctor at the recent hearings agreed that abortion was not the answer for anyone who had susidal thoughts

That figure of 30,000 is quite incorrect. The area where the protest took place only holds around 12,000 to 15,000 people standing shoulder to shoulder. The space needed for the expensive screens and other stage props reduces that figure by another ten or twenty percent.

@hippocrateeth or whatever. Are you talking about the pro-life gathering that was shouting your warped views into the car windows of people who were driving by? Scaring the life out of children and upsetting them? I personally know a family who u done this too and the children were really upset over it! Pro-life my ar$e!

Sorry, 25,000 official. Lol.

I shouted huzzahs into the opens window of a Toyota Yaris as it rolled menacingly past us and frightened the beejayzus out of a ignorant yorkshire terrier in the back seat. In my defense, the terrier looked like Marie Stopes and was trying to get hold of a can of lager to chuck at my homeboys da youff defense.

Those women are the same women that a few years ago would have sent their daughters to a Magdalene Laundry for shaming the family.

There weren’t 30k or even 20k but somewhere around 12k

The majority were men

Of the women who were there (about 1/3) only 10-15% were of child bearing age. Most of these were pushed up the front of the rally to provide the fake majority referred to.

This attempt to manipulate the image from the rally was well covered on Journal at the time but also in the Irish Times. The WSM website had a detailed look at numbers plus a load of photos taken inside the crowd.

Women’s tight to control their own fertility shouldn’t be a question of majorities and minorities anyway but this attempt by the 10% who have yet to escape the 50′s to to claim they are the majority should always be challenged,

This is the mad one always going around with her bible and telling us all how to live.

This is not the 1940’s love. Ireland is not a theocratic State.

If you don’t want an abortion – don’t have one. Irish women will still travel to England each year, irrespective of what happens.

Who funds your organisation ? Ireland is bankrupt, yet the anti-choice brigade are advertising throughout the Country.

“The pro-life crowd don’t care about the mothers…” – Barry

“(the women who attended to pro-life gathering) are too stupid well said” – Richard Fennelly

“Those women are the same women that a few years ago would have sent their daughters to a Magdalene Laundry for shaming the family” – Denis

“Ireland is not a theocratic State.” – Meredith Lopez

And, irony of ironies;
“… so yet again a pro-lifer misses the point ” – Barry

I don’t even have an opinion I’m trying to push. I just wanted to point out how moronic you people sound.

The half mad reaction of some abortion supporters is actually hilarious. The article is backed up with some serious facts, deal with them rather than ranting and raving.

I am a 21 year old female student and I am pro-life. I am not pro-life because of any religion but because of my experiences and because I have taken the time to learn as much about abortion and the question of person-hood as can.
This is not a religious issue, it is often associated with religion purely because a lot of religious people are pro-life. It is a human rights issue.
I don’t want to directly attack any of the comments above but I just want to say… I am FOR women – the truth about abortion is, although it may seem to be an easy option, it causes so much pain and hardship in the woman’s life, and unfortunately many women don’t realise until it is too late.
What most pro-life groups try to do is in fact help and protect women.

If you just take one minute to consider this;
when the egg is fertilized and begins to develop in the womb at what point do you call it a person? 12 weeks? 20 weeks? 40 weeks? Birth? 2 years old? 15 years old? 50 years old?…. you get the point. We are all just people at different stages of development in life. Lets go back to the foetus developing in the womb: at which day in the pregnancy can you say “yes it is a child today – it wasn’t a child yesterday”.
We are interdependent beings so we cannot say that if the foetus can survive on its own it is then a person. Not one of us COULD survive on our own. We are responsible for other people and other people have a responsibility towards us. A baby cannot feed and clean and take care of him/herself – it would die if left alone. A sick adult could not survive alone.
When a woman becomes pregnant she has a responsibility to the body developing inside her developing body. Unfortunately sometimes it is not a happy situation for that woman (and maybe the father) but there is no getting around that reality. Her body knows she is pregnant and abortion results in a mourning of the lost child in some way or another.
We cannot see the child, hear it, touch it, interact with it in the early stages of pregnancy. Therefore it is easy to only consider the woman’s current situation, if the pregnancy causes a seemingly worsened scenario for that girl/woman then abortion seems like the perfect solution.
The truth is that in the overall span of things abortion ends one life, and hurts the other.

Sorry I hadn’t planned for that comment to be so long… :)

A considered opinion Niamh? I guess that makes you a stupid, uncaring theocrat who supports the Magdelene laundries.

I don’t necessarily agree with you, but it’s still a nice change from the ridiculous, hyperbolic nonsense in the pro-choice comments. You’ve made a fool of some of the self-important windbags on here.

Abortion is never an easy option

Consider some scenarios. This one: A young girl, 13yrs discovers she is 3 weeks pregnant, as a result of being raped by her father, or uncle or brother, she is in absolute crisis and realises she should have reported the rape but didn’t this increases her guilt and her self hatred. She cannot contemplate carrying the pregnancy full term, because its her fathers, she wants to die. She CANNOT continue with the pregnancy. The only option for her is to die behind the Grotto, while giving birth.
Or this scenario: a woman in early pregnancy enters hospital because of complications. The medical experts tell the woman the foetus cannot be saved and WILL die, she is upset but realises the best option FOR HER is a termination. She is refused, she reminded the medical intervention cannot help the foetus, she asks for a termination. She’s afraid, she feels I’ll, she feels like SHE has NO CONTROL over her body. Her request is ignored, she is offered toast. She dies a week later, her body poisoned as a result of her treatment.
Simple really, did these women/girls need an abortion or not. Yes or No. Keep in mind in the first example that comforting words of support will not change the paternity of the girls pregnancy, ever.

Pro-choice abortion groups do not provide care for women. They don’t want to hear about those feeling hurt. Sure didn’t they try to deface their posters thus silencing them? Don’t they give them dangerous information that put their lives at risk? Women often feel suicidal because of the many pressures on them to do something they know to be abhorrent. Many of those reasons could be overcome if more people helped women rather than being ideologically for killing their babies.

okay

Yes William those scenario are bad and the abuser should be punished for the crime….

But that is still no reason to introduce abortion in this country.
We are no different to any other country and once it in it will be abused and misused by many, you can take examples from England, America, Canada…
As for Savitas case, if the doctors neglected their duty or there was negligence on their part, whatever the outcome we’ll have to wait and see, that should be dealted with in court…

Abortion is never an easy option, but it’s a permanent one. I find it curious that all the pro-choice activists have already been born themselves.

@john the baptist, Simply put: a number of doctors will have to sign off on the termination after a psychological assessment. Won’t be an easy thing to achieve in Ireland.

@Hippocrateeth – YD, LI and other organizations quote an “official” figure of 25,000. This figure was never released officially by the Gardai, it does not appear on the Garda website, there appears to be no record of any Garda ever saying it, and there appears to be no indication of who actually produced it in the first place.

@Donal I was born into a loving family, I was lucky. Not everyone is, you realise that right? That the world isn’t all sunshine and lollipops for everyone?

I love this idea some anti-choicers have that abortion is something people will gallop off to the doctors to get, whooping with joy as they go.

I’m beginning to think that alleged pro-life gathering didn’t even take place at all! I’ve scoured the databases of an Gardai Siochana, the Dublin City Council, and combed exhaustively through the complete works of George Hook and can’t find a shred of hard evidence it definitely existed. How deep does this thing GO??? Sterling work, detective. #gathering.ufo.chemtrails.shell2sea24/7horsemeatscandle

Today’s Millward Brown poll show a sizeable majority support legal protection of unborn.

Q1. In current medical practice in Ireland, the doctor treats the expectant mother and her baby as two patients and does his/her best to safeguard both in a crisis situation. Do you consider that this practice should be protected and safeguarded by law or not?

Result: 66% answered YES, 15% NO, 19% No Opinion. Of those who expressed an opinion 81% answered YES.

Q2. Are you in favour of, or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother’s life in accordance with Irish medical ethics?

Result: 63% answered YES, 19% NO, 18% No Opinion. Of those who expressed an opinion: 77% answered YES.

Hipocrateeth, – the pro choicers have tried to come up with every possible excuse for the huge numbers at the last Pro Life vigil. – the usual…. free buses, US funding….. etc etc.etc
Every possible way, they can try to deny or rationalise, the massive crowd who attended.
Huge numbers of like myself, young women there. I consider it a privilege to have attended.
As your say, – they would almost try to convince us that the vigil never happened at all!

Who cares how many people were there anyway?
Our constitution states that if the woman’s life is in danger including from self destruction then abortion is permitted.
There’s been two referenda to try and get that pesky suicide clause out, but they were rejected. So it’s staying in unless we have a third referendum..

There is a duty for the government to provide the legislation to put this clause into effect, this was pointed out by the EU and was the purpose of the expert report and those hearings. FG aren’t too pleased at the prospect but they are obliged to uphold the constitution.

There could have been 100,000 there, it doesn’t change the constitution, only a referendum will. And to be honest, if we are having a referendum, how about we vote on whether we want the 8th amendment – seeing as the last vote on that was 30 years ago (the ones trying to ditch the suicide clause were within the last 21).

So who cares what the people say, rigidly adhere to the text in a book? 100,000 people may call out? – shanti says ignore them! The prescribed text must be followed!

Reminds me of something I can’t quite seem to put my finger on.

Do you have issue with the democratic process Hippo?
Like I said, we have been asked in two referenda to remove that suicide clause and the people voted to leave it there. The legislation must reflect the constitution as this is the highest law in the land..
It’s not about rigidly following a book, it’s about expressing the democratic will of the people.

@Niamh NicAoidh let me first commend you on studying up on this topic, but let me share with you something from someone with experience. At 24 I found myself pregnant, distraught and overwhelmed I took advantage of the positive options put forward by the government. While very supportive there was one type of information they wouldn’t provide and that was information on what my options were if I didn’t want to continue with the pregnancy. Alone and with growing anxiety about what was coming I visited my doctor who through assessing me realised that I was in no fit state to continue with the pregnancy. He gave me the details of the Marie Stopes clinic where I attended and then i took the very lonely trip to London. They offered counselling and support following that. It’s 10 years on and while I regret having found myself in such a desperate place I will forever be grateful to that doctor and do not regret what I did because it was right for me at the time. I’ve since married and started a family. It upsets me that the anti-choice brigade constantly push this idea that abortions have long lasting psychological impacts. Every serious choice is difficult, but as someone who found themselves in a desperate situation the thing that does weigh on me is that I was forced to take my dirty little secret and leave my home country so I could be someone else’s problem. It happens and ignoring it and all women like me is not an option anymore.

And again this poll was carried out on behalf of the pro life campaign. Biased much???

I don’t think the results of polls are skewed based on who comissioned the survey.

@Shanti, your always talking about these two referendums that we voted to keep suicide in..
first it is not accurate to say that a No vote endorsed the x case decision…
I myself and lots more voted No because of the absence of care for the baby in the proposal…
In the second referendum the 49% was clearly Prolife BUT in a Millward Briwn Lansdowne poll taken after identified that 5% of the No vote was Prolife who were dissatisfied with the wording, so that puts the Pro Life over the 50 % mark…… A poll taken today shows a Pro Life majority to..

Barry claims prolife people ignore women but it is he who ignores women and what is in their best interests. All the evidence given by the medical experts including prochoice is that Abortion is not a treatment for suicide and some experts say it may increase x6 times the possibility of dying by suicide. Ferguson, a prochoice psychiatrist, who has a lot of research in the area, says it increases mental illness post abortion by 30%. These facts can be found in the recent government hearings where there was extrodinarty agreement on these points.
To persist with the excuse of abortion for suicide only shows one to be ideologically driven towards abortion as a social change marker or an achievement while ignoring the real women who need help.

The writer points to the abortion issue as being an important issue that effects the way people vote. Some of the comments here deny that as one would expect from the majority of Journal readers. 294 comments on this article. 139 on article about cutting pay. I think abortion plays a bigger role than people think even if many don’t like to articulate their feelings on the issue.

I’ll just leave this here

http://imgur.com/iWzj0op

@ William.. ?!??? What has that to do with the abortion debate, Nothing…

That has nothing to do with the doctors giving best practice medicine as they do now..
Nothing to do with the people on here debating abortion..
This has nothing to do with people who have faith..
Do you really believe that anyone who has faith in God actually supports anything that these abusers have done?? No they don’t..
Do you really believe that people should change their opinion on abortion because of what these abusers have done?!?!?? No they shouldn’t

@ Bridget, this has quite a bit to do with the abortion debate, it illustrates hypocrisy in a simple way, and the anti choice movement does the very same thing with the same motivations and eagerness to interfere in other peoples lives and bodies. The Church and it’s supporters have always maintained this compulsion of control whether toward contraception, abortion or homosexuality and at the same time the Church themselves engage in obscene concealment of heinous crimes of rape and abuse of children, or most recently revealed gay orgies in Rome.
The Church orders operated slave labour camps in Ireland under the pretext of helping ‘fallen women’
If the church had their way and the irish people didn’t rise up against them there would be no contraception available, the hideous laundries would still be operating and abusing priests would still be roaming free,
That little cartoon illustrates the hypocrisy of the church, obviously your church, I washed my hands of it a long time ago.

@ William, well good for you if you washed your hands of them, but as I said that had nothing to do with abortion…
They are prolife too but so are many many other people…

Abortion is not just a church issue, it is a human rights issue because there is no greater right than that to Life..:)

@KtthC I regret to hear that this person felt so alone. There is and was so much help that women in crisis pregnancy can receive. But she did say there were other options. The doctor in my view did not consider the best option for the 2 patients he was faced with i.e. the woman and her baby. Abortion was definately not the best option for the baby at that time. So he failed in his duty to protect the second patient he had. It’s very easy for the doctor to feel comfortable with his advice having airbrushed out the baby. A lot of women resort to abortion because they feel absolutley desolate. When they are offered real practical help and psychological support they go through with the pregnancy and the outcomes for everyone can be so different.

@KtthC I am also very saddened to read this woman’s experience and the fact that she felt her only option was to have an abortion.I want to share an experience I had with a woman in crisis pregnancy. She had just started a new job here and discovered she was pregnant. She at first did not know that I knew she was pregnant so one night I told her that I knew and that I thought I could help her. I will never forget the way she reacted when I told her that I knew. She seemed so utterly distraught and began to cry unceasingly , so much so that I just held her and she cried and cried for about 5 minutes. She then told me her situation. She had told her boyfriend who was also working here but he told her that he did not want the baby and did not want to be a father and told her to have an abortion. In the country she was from abortion is commonplace. She was afraid that she would lose her job and because she was not an Irish citizen she was not entitled to any assistance here. So, in her mind, she was facing being pregnant, alone with no job and probably nowhere to live. Her English was not good so she probably did not know how to access any help. She really felt she had to have an abortion. So I told her that I could help her by providing money for her while she was pregnant and also after the baby was born. She could not continue with the job she was doing because of the nature of the job so I , with the help of others, arranged for her to go to live in another town where we hoped we would be able to find another job for her and where we knew she would have free accommodation. I put her in contact with a counsellor who would help her through the pregnancy, keep in contact with her, accompany her to doctor’s and hospital appointments etc.The Life counsellor arranged an voluntary interpreter for her so she could understand everything. It took her a while to make the decision. I think her biggest problem was to trust us that we would continue to support her so I brought her to meet these people and she decided to go through with the pregnancy. In time she moved to the other town where we did find her another job. She gave birth to a beautiful baby boy and is still living and working in that town. She keeps in contact and constantly sends me photos of the baby. Again, this experience really brought home to me just how much in crisis these women are and that when they don’t see any other way out, they feel they have to resort to abortion. As soon as this woman knew she had support she decided to have her baby. She still had the option of adoption if she had felt she couldn’t raise the baby herself. But at least, even if she had had the baby adopted, she would have gotten to meet the baby. This is only one of the experiences I have had but the more women like this that I meet the more I am convinced that abortion is never a solution.

@ShantiPixie Research has shown that the reason people voted against those referenda was not to keep the suicide clause in but because the referenda did not give a clear choice between abortion and no abortion. Opinion polls that are designed with a straight clear question about abortion show consistantly that people in Ireland do not want abortion legalised here. There is a poll published in this journal today which shows the same, that 3 out of 4 people here do not want abortion.

The questions used in that survey are actually quite telling – they’re awful. I don’t mean that their content is awful but that how they are phrased are. Part of my job is to write questions for assessments & if I wrote badly worded questions like that people would complain.

You have to read them several times to work out what they are asking. They clearly were written to give a preconceived and biased result.

re “I’ll just leave this here” William with his Simpsons cartoon seems to be implying that paedophilia in the church is carried out by homosexuals.

Brid, the poll you refer to required yes or no answers to either / or questions.
These questions were as clear as mud, so the results can only be interpreted as same.
The suicide clause is in our constitution. If you didn’t want it there you should have voted to remove it. Did you vote for the right to travel and the right to information while you were at it?

Regardless of what the party faithful want or don’t want the majority of the population voted on this already.

Exactly. And given this article is written with one aim in mind, which certainly isn’t anything to do with the health of FG, the opposite point can also be made:
FG could gain support for finally doing what successive governments have not.

All of this is so up in the air anyway (in terms of party support) – The bottom line is that those with the intelligence to see through the bs will recognise it is a constitutional obligation to deal with the issue and it unfortunately took such a tragic case to get some action.

Indeed we should be, that and gay marriage and both issues are what the lunatics don’t want, but it doesn’t matter what they don’t want anymore as they no longer have control because nobody fears them anymore.

Only a few decades ago (think 60′s) people would not have spoken out against the church’s position on a matter…atleast not in public without the fear of the reaction of the community they lived in.

Only a few hundred years before (think 16th) you’d have been burnt for disagreeing with anything the church was in support of.

Well that doesn’t happen anymore thankfully and although one of the pope’s condemned things like free speech and free press, we can thankfully speak our mind and speak out against such backwards views that the so called pro-life crowd and church have.

The church and its pope have nothing but contempt for people that do things they don’t like, when reading the words below remember that the church views the pope as infallible so nothing they say is wrong in their eyes.

Pope Gregory XVI in his bull of 1832, Mirari vos, said ” Liberty is madness, and any work advocating freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly or freedom of eduction is “a filthy sewer full of heretical vomit”

sure Barry in 30 years time our kids will be saying that their idiotic parents voted the party that ruined the nation back in.

We’re no more progressive than our parents or grandparents generations.

“Call good and Evil by name”. These words were spoken by a champion of freedom, Pope JP 2 and collapsed the evil charade of Communism. The present Pope has done all that he needed to doto Watch this space.

Tom, but what about a previous popes words?

They can’t be wrong in the eye’s of the catholic church, this means that both popes are right?…how can this be?
One says communism is evil but the other says freedom is heresy, who’s right? :)

Watch this space? so I can expect further contradictory comments from future popes…none of which can be wrong? Great, I look forward to them as much as the fairy tales in the bible.

Jp 2 collapsed communism with six words?!
I must have missed that.
Sounds like sorcery to me.

Barry you’re thinking of communism in North Korea, or the communism that was in Russia. Real communism is very liberal. Although I am very much against the pope, and I agree with everything else you’ve said.

Barry, I don’t consider myself backward in anyway and I’m not a church goer. I do not agree with abortion. I believe however that there is a need for legislation to guide medical professionals and for TFMR. With your attempt to ‘drag’ the people of a different opinion to yourself ‘kicking and screaming’ into the 21st century you sound pretty backward yourself.

Start killing babies ! It’s so old fashioned to be against abortion !

To solve a problem with a greater evil is not progress.

I am a 21 year old female student and I am pro-life. I am not pro-life because of any religion but because of my experiences and because I have taken the time to learn as much about abortion and the question of person-hood as can.
This is not a religious issue, it is often associated with religion purely because a lot of religious people are pro-life. It is a human rights issue.
I don’t want to directly attack any of the comments above but I just want to say… I am FOR women – the truth about abortion is, although it may seem to be an easy option, it causes so much pain and hardship in the woman’s life, and unfortunately many women don’t realise until it is too late.
What most pro-life groups try to do is in fact help and protect women.
If you just take one minute to consider this;
when the egg is fertilized and begins to develop in the womb at what point do you call it a person? 12 weeks? 20 weeks? 40 weeks? Birth? 2 years old? 15 years old? 50 years old?…. you get the point. We are all just people at different stages of development in life. Lets go back to the foetus developing in the womb: at which day in the pregnancy can you say “yes it is a child today – it wasn’t a child yesterday”.
We are interdependent beings so we cannot say that if the foetus can survive on its own it is then a person. Not one of us COULD survive on our own. We are responsible for other people and other people have a responsibility towards us. A baby cannot feed and clean and take care of him/herself – it would die if left alone. A sick adult could not survive alone.
When a woman becomes pregnant she has a responsibility to the body developing inside her developing body. Unfortunately sometimes it is not a happy situation for that woman (and maybe the father) but there is no getting around that reality. Her body knows she is pregnant and abortion results in a mourning of the lost child in some way or another.
We cannot see the child, hear it, touch it, interact with it in the early stages of pregnancy. Therefore it is easy to only consider the woman’s current situation, if the pregnancy causes a seemingly worsened scenario for that girl/woman then abortion seems like the perfect solution.
The truth is that in the overall span of things abortion ends one life, and hurts the other.

Well isn’t it a good thing Niamh that you have a CHOICE not to have one.

Niamh — You’ve copied and pasted that comment twice now on this thread. That’s called spam.

What? Where?

ah that was a mistake it was meant to be a response to a thread above, I hadn’t even read this thread.

@Graham, Unfortunately, Niamh doesn’t have a choice in this country. If she was to become pregnant tomorrow (whether by consent or force) she would have to remain pregnant until she either gives birth or has a miscarriage.

Groups like SPUC etc took away Niamh’s right to choose when they decided the rights of a fertilised egg took precidence over the woman or girl carrying it.

Barry,

“Only a few hundred years before (think 16th) you’d have been burnt for disagreeing with anything the church was in support of.”

I respect you like commenting on this website a lot but please check facts before you post them. The Catholic church in Ireland did not burn people for disagreeing with them.

Barry – it’s a pity you didn’t spend time learning about the Papacy rather than spewing gross nonsense. A Papal Bull is not necessarily “Infallible”. Infallibility is restricted to matters concerning Morality, Doctrine and Dogma – everything else is merely a considered and valued opinion of the Pope. So your posts are completely nonsensical and should be ignored.

Niamh Ui Bhriain was formerly known as Niamh Nic Mhathúna and a member of Youth Defense, she is the daughter of Una Bean nic Mhathuna of “G’way ye wife-swapping sodomites’ fame.

Agreed Ian.

The apple definitely did not fall far from that tree!

Ian, while I most certainly do not agree with the article, I’m glad the nut job got a chance to have her drivel published. It goes some way to shutting up those who claim TheJournal is pro-choice all the way and not at all
balanced.

TheJournal has been consistent in its policy around such columns.

As has been done in the past, I suspect that later today or tomorrow we will see an article written to provide a counterpoint to this.

… well there is that I suppose …. we all need a reason to read utter nonsense every now and again.

True dat !

Exactly, as much as this woman is clearly deluded and peddling utter nonsense – there are many around here whining about a supposedly pro choice agenda at the journal, so for them to allow an anti choice column is perfectly fine and fair, and should be encouraged, for balance.

yes

Name calling the typical defence for abortion.

The impending property tax and water charges are (in my guesstimate) probably the primary reason why FG are loosing support in the polls.

couldn’t agree more I was amazed at this article twists what is happening to meet their own agenda. the reality of why this government won’t get back into power is because the really don’t seem to care about the hardship they’re putting people through only cutting money with little though about the impact.

This woman is completely deluded… Recent polls show that only 12% of the population share her position.

Oh is that how it works? I see. This whole time I’ve been under the impression that a democracy was run on the premise that the elected government acted as a spokesperson for what the majority of voting citizens wanted! Thanks for clearing that up. I suppose now you’ve said it it makes sense, Irish people didn’t want Lisbon, we got that, we didn’t want to unfairly bear the brunt of the banking crisis, out govt elected we do, we didn’t stand in favour of increasing austerity targeting the middle and low income sectors, and we’re getting that. The sooner the pro life fools realize the basic principle of how a democracy operates the sooner we can all move on into the 21st century and be good Europeans and stop dragging our feet on issues many people feel are simply not the right decision for our country.

The majority of people want it ,??????????

Then they won’t have any significant fallout in voters because of this issue so what’s the problem?

Hippo, the people voted to keep the suicide clause in, they’re merely legislating for the will of the people as expressed in two referenda.. Deal with that..

Im defending anyone but i dont think it would have been much different the other way round

@Dave – I’m not suggesting it would be. FF/FG are cut from the same cloth as far as I’m concerned.

Lol brilliant comment!!!!

Comment of the week.

and I suppose you consider yourself so enlightened?…….

Baseless accusations. The only one writing inflammatory comments is you. The Life Institute has thousands of supporters unlike marginal groups like Action on X.

And thousands of supporters imply that they are right? I do believe that many agendas have millions of supporters now and in the past, it doesnt mean they were actually right e.g. the Khmer Rouge, the Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan.

Having read the drivel in the above article and the rubbish they produce on their website with an impartial eye, I can clearly state, that they produce a load of utter bull pushing their agenda, while funded by radical atrch conservative evangelical christians from the US. So are their thousands of members in fact Irish?

My above comment was made to praise the Journal on being impartial and allowing both sides to discuss. You Fergal of the purple egg features just made a fool of yourself.

Yeah Fergal.. The life institute, youth defence etc have a load of support – from fake twitter and Facebook profiles and extreme right wing American Christians… Not really relevant to Ireland now is it?

Conor,
Pot kettle black. Inflammatory journalism is a serious thing indeed. Its deserving of the courts. You repeat the allegation but you have no data to back this claim. Its striking that your attempt at supporting your claims involves calling me fool. I’m not here to criticise or praise the journal.ie only to correct your post.

This kind of blackmail happened to the government for far too long and look at what is now coming out about this – state apologies based on the magdalene laundries, widespread and systematic child abuse by christian brothers/clergy.

I for one would be more inclined to vote Fine Gael if Enda Kenny does not bow to this kind of ridiculous hysterical and uninformed pressure by the church/Iona/Youth Defence or others who believe they have a right to control a womans choice in this country.

CABK,
Are staying the State was blackmailed into using Magdalene Laundries? Really?

Thankfully it’s not actually journalism, it’s an opinion piece from an anti choice advocate and is merely a good example of the journal offering a balanced view. There’s most likely going to be another from the pro choice side in the next 24 hours :)

I can’t wait for an entire article written by Stephen McElliggot. Maybe they’ll make a movie and a trilogy of books, it would probably fix everything

And the vast majority of Irish people support legislation http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1201/356288-poll-finds-80-support-for-abortion-legislation/

I regret that I have only one green thumb to give this comment.

From that same Red C/Sunday Business Poll that Mary links to.

‘Over two-thirds, 67%, said the Government should prioritise higher taxes for those earning over €100,000 a year.”

If the Coalition government is looking for an explanation for its decline in support, there’s it there.

‘It appears that the pilot has lost control of the plane’ lol Love it Niamh. Fine Gael had this election in the bag. Must have been the easiest one for them to balls up yet. I was one of the many who voted for them on foot of their pre election promise not to legislate for abortion. It wont be forgiven or forgotten Enda.

Light at last. I totally agree with the article. There is a pledge of 100000 voters on the way to Kenny saying if he does legislate for abortion in Ireland for the first time, that they will “never again”, vote for FG.
There are other options to address the ECHR concerns and the issues around the X case.
We understand that labour leadership is pro abortion, but FG promised otherwise. Keep your promise!

Paddy, are you quite sure these 100,000 ‘voters’ are all from Ireland? Right wing activists from the United States don’t get to vote in Irish elections, remember that.

@ Brian
Still in denial! I didn’t notice any surge in aerlingus flights from America, the day when 30,000 turned out in Dublin.
The people signing the petition are voters with Irish addresses and votes.
You need to understand that the journal commentators are not a cross section of the population. Look at the history of votes in Ireland, we are still without abortion, one of the few trends we have stood against in western society. Ireland still respects life.
Enda needs to understand that legislating for suicidal presentation, opens the gates, and the Irish voters know this. What the article above says is true. If abortion was off the table, I believe FG would have taken a little hit because of the economic hardship. If they also succeeded in reducing their own rewards, they would gain moral authority to implement austerity, without loosing favour. But that’s not going to happen this time.

According to the article above this petition has 32,000 signatures…so where are you getting 100,000 from?

@ Brian
The pledge itself has just started. The 100,000 is the target for the pledge. When this figure is reached, Enda gets a present.
Not all pro lifers would sign this pledge, even though they won’t vote for FG the next time out if they go ahead with abortion. The pledge says never to vote for FG again, which is extreme, as we could be in a situation in the future where all parties are pro abortion. This would potentially disenfranchise the signer.

Paddy — The mind boggles. What business is it of yours what any woman does with her own body? The brass neck of you. Why the need to control the bodily functions of other people?

@ Petr Tarasov
Interesting to see your avatar depicts a Marxist philosophy, and you propose sexism, when it comes to criminal activity in Ireland.

No, I propose equality. Women are not incubators.

@Petr: Men the likes of Paddy and co have a natural distrust and fear of women. They see us as devious connivers and liars who need to be controlled at all times.

When asked why they need to control us, they don’t answer.

@ Petr Tarasov
Do you have a grievance with nature? Are you proposing wombs for men or hysterectomies for women? I’m not in favour of either as a solution for the worlds problems.

@ Daisy Chainsaw
Misandry is never pretty. Men can lie and be dishonest with the best of them.

You seem fairly sure about reaching that target of 100,000 Paddy. Are you privy to information the rest of us don’t have?

Paddy, I’m starting a petition with an aspirational target of 1,000,000 signatures of people, who will never vote for FG again, if they do not legislate for abortion. I have 1 signature at the moment but when I hit the million Enda will get a present. By your rational thats 1 million votes they are not getting, since we are only talking aspirations, my guns bigger than yours Nah nah nah… Like your argument the 100,000 don’t exist.

@ Stephen Nolan
I can’t say I wish you well with that Stephen. If you ask the question straight, “Do you support the provision of abortion in Ireland”, then you should be able to achieve the million mark, if everyone registered to vote comes forward. Your problem is the two million not in favour of your proposal.
Enda knows well that if he went to the people on this issue it would be defeated. The 100000 target for the real petition amounts to 5% of those who do not agree to abortion on demand for Ireland.

That’s the problem, you wanna paint this as a black and white issue when it is not and never can be.

There’s plenty of people who would answer no to the question “would you like to see abortion in Ireland” who would say that they could agree with it’s use in certain circumstances (such as fatal foetal abnormality / rape / incest / mothers life in danger), if you frame the question as though you are asking for abortion “on demand” as you like to call it, the support would be much lower as a lot of people are uncomfortable with this idea (thanks to the propaganda that insinuates that all women are lying “fallen women” who would rather have abortions than use contraception – the same propaganda that led to the magdalen laundries incidentally, pesky women – not to be trusted with their sexuality)

Why is it that women are painted as harlots? Is it because we take the responsibility of carrying the baby when the contraception fails? It’s perfectly alright for a man to sow his wild oats but women, no, women must be punished for having sexual urges or experience.. We haven’t moved on from magdalen Ireland at all, not with people like you around Paddy..

Paddy once again you just pluck figures from the air, non existent figures for a non existent point. You are trying to make an argument about abortion on demand now because you couldn’t make a valid argument on the point at hand. Effectively you lie to cover a lack of any coherent view point.

@ Stephen Nolan
Fewer and fewer of the population at large, are swallowing the lie that Ireland will buck the trend and successfully implement a “very restricted” abortion regime. There are no international examples of where, what was meant to be restrictive, stayed restrictive.
So do acknowledge the intelligence of the Irish people, and call a spade a spade.
At least, two thirds of the Irish voting population, do not want abortion on demand. So where exactly am I exaggerating?
The danger is that FG, without a mandate, will run with the liberal media and our neighbouring superpowers, in case we appear old fashioned, you know what I mean, supportive of the child and mother.

Paddy the most recent opinion polls say that 85% of the population want some form of legislation to be brought in. So where are these two thirds of the population your talking about? With the rest of the youth defence support in the Bible Belt of the USA I’d imagine. This article is not based on abortion on the demand, the legislation is not based on abortion on demand, your figures are based on nothing except the imaginings of a closed mind. Your argument is based on nothing whatsoever except your fears, I’d imagine you were a leader in the flat earth society in a previous incarnation the way you argue.

@Paddy, you still haven’t answered me. Why do you need to control what women do? Why do you distrust us so much?

I think the Journal is letting the Life Institute hang itself with this article. I wonder will Niamh respond to any of the comments…..

How can one sensibly argue with this fear mongering rhetoric, indeed! This is precisely why many pro-choice organisations worldwide simply do not engage in public debate with anti-choicers. there is no debate, as they say: “Debates imply opposing sides, but anti-choice and pro-choice are not the opposite of each other. The opposite of forced pregnancy is forced abortion. We oppose both.” (from here: http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/print-friendly/debate.shtml) let the extremists argue that they’re right and that they are the majority – the only people who believe and agree with them are the ones who can not overcome their confirmation bias. to be pro-choice, one does not need to encourage, promote, love, or even like abortion – one is only obliged to believe in and support ‘choice’.

Guessing by the red thumbs there’s a couple of pro-lifers soaking up the crap this article is pushing

Or people who appreciate that the journal are merely trying to offer both sides of the debate in the interests of fairness?

Previous abortion related articles have relayed news, not opinion. Besides which the article does not present itself as a pro-life opinion. It instead completely misrepresents the truth to try and sneakily force it’s agenda in people’s face. If you consider this to a legitimate article you might also be interested in this http://www.thesun.co.uk

Stephen, my apologies – it seems that you aren’t familiar with how this works..

Take a look at the headline on this piece, you will notice it is preceded with the word “Column”.
On the Journal, all column pieces are opinion pieces. These are not news by any stretch of the imagination.

You are correct in that the majority of articles around this topic are news items, but the journal has had several opinion pieces from both sides of the debate, and this is important for the sake of fairness and objectivity.

There’s no need to get snarky and accuse me of being a sun reader, I’m pro choice too – and I happen to think that these pieces are beneficial to the pro choice cause, but that’s merely my opinion.

Explain

Deborah- how’s your income tax looking these days?

Who is Scott?

The vast MAJORITY of Irish people support legislation http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1201/356288-poll-finds-80-support-for-abortion-legislation/

You should read the journal more

I agree with you Terry. I disagree entirely with the author and her position but I don’t object to it being on here.

Na they shouldn’t give these loons the oxygen of publicity, their argument isn’t legitimate the less newspapers and other media it is in the better. Leave them to their robo-calls and their offensive ads.

It depends upon whether its a medical or a surgical abortion.

A medical abortion is a case of taking a drug which induces a miscarriage. From there on out its exactly the same as having a miscarriage, as many women do in the first trimester.
If not all of the pregnancy is miscarried then a DNC may be performed, which is where a vaccuum cleans out the womb of leftover products of conception, depending upon how the miscarriage went.

This is the most common method of abortion in the UK & Wales.

Surgical abortions are usually carried out later in the pregnancy and the methods and procedures vary, some may involve anaesthetic and others may not.

It’s not a pleasant experience, physically, mentally or emotionally. And one I suggest that you research on medical websites, rather than taking my word for it, or any lobby groups words for it. Seek out clinical, medical descriptions from reputable sources and veer away from lobby groups information on either side, this way you should avoid any bias and just get the facts.

Im sure you can read up on it yourself Deirdre. That is if you can undersrand all the terminology and not twist it to suit your own misinformed ideals. After all you are the one that labelled all the people that have an informed difference of opinion from yours baby murderers in a previous post. Really did yourself justice there Deirdre!!!!

well said Deirdre, – I know many people who have been life long Fine Gael voters & supporters, who are disappointed by FG breaking their ‘pro life promise’
They will be reconsidering whether or not, they will vote for FG again.
Niamh is right in her column above, – the upcoming legislation is definetly a factor in the drop in support for FG.
The views of commenters in ‘The Journal’ is not necessarily representative of large numbers of people out there, – especially for people in rural communities. Many rural FG voters would traditionally be ‘Pro Life’
As Niamh said, – the Labour tail is wagging the FG dog.

Not before they pass this legislation they’re not!

Change is happening and the so called pro-life crowd are going to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century regardless of if they like it or not.

The electoral implications for FG will very much depend on the controls put in place to regulate the suicide element of the legislation. If the provisions effectively stop the suicide provision being abused to allow abortion on demand, even pro-life FG voters will understand that the legislation was inevitable after the X Case and that it has value in so far as protecting the life of the mother. It could also take Abortion off the table for decades as the pro-absorption movement loses some of its traditional ammunition.

“The electoral implications”?!?!
I’m sorry, but when I go to vote I’ll not be voting solely based on whether FG enact on this or not!
Janey Mac, with someone else on another thread suggesting that we should give Ming, Wallace and Co a go just because they weren’t the ones who got us here (what the almighty does That mean?!?!) and you here suggesting that FG will be decimated on the basis of its ProLife promise (we’ll forget, you know, the fact, that nobody’s pay packet is safe, nobody’s morale either and that’s not a result of the PL promise), is it a bleedin’ wonder we’re up the creek without so much a boat to sit in never mind the paddle to steer us out of the place. We’re like a bunch of headless chickens running and flailing wildly around.
Reminds me of the scene where Mr Bean gets his head stuck in a Christmas turkey and flails wildly about the place. Well, Mr Bean = the Irish people.

Countries that that have de-conscienced themselves regarding the killing of innocent human life are sick societies.

@james- the article was based on the “electoral implications”. Happy to go toe to toe with you on the moral implications whenever you like, or the various pluses & minuses of this Government but unlike many on here who will use any spurious subtext to move ANY article to their subject of choice (usually burning bond holders), I thought it would be novel to, you know….address the point in the main article. Crazy, I know but hey it’s Thursday, we’re galloping towards weeks end- I thought I’d go nuts.

Vincent, I read the article, and I’ve decided it’s sheer, unadulterated, complete, wholesome, grad A, gold rubbish.
There is not one honest person in this country who will be basing their next vote on whether or not FG legislate for termination or not. If they do they are irresponsible, they are mal-informed, they are ill-deserved of democracy, because that is not how democracy works.
Another thing, why do PL get to decide which polls they do or don’t trust? Most people *are* in favour of legislation (not that they have a choice, but another story), and most people dislike FG, I’m not sure what that tells you, but it doesn’t exactly say that the traditional PL are in the majority.

@james- being selective with polls is not a phenomenon unique to the pro-life movement. I think you’re wrong, there are many who’s vote is strongly influenced by the stance on abortion- not as many as suggested above. As for Fine Gael, 70+ seats in the Government benches would suggest you’re wrong re: their unpopularity. Now a lesser man than you would point to the weekends poll but I know you don’t like Cherry Picking polls!

Oh good, sweet, divine comedy.
Have you any idea what it is you’re actually talking about?
The only reason FG got so many seats was because they were the only alternative party. Nobody was going to vote for FF, and Lab didn’t have enough candidates up for election, neither did independents etc.
The reason FG got so many seats was not because of their stance on termination, nor is it the reason they’re sliding down – they got in because they offered fresh faces, a new look, a new world, a clean start. They’re sliding because people are looking in their wallets and finding they’re handing out hand over fist for everything and barely having so much as the brass tacks and stitching holding the wallet together left in the damned thing.
People vote with their wallets, their bank accounts, their savings, their assets. To state that the reason for FG’s slide is due to the righting of something that has only effected 100k odd families since 1993 when there are how many 100k’s of public servants whose families and lives will be decimated by the end of next week is childish, immature, ignorant, and shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of how democracy works.
Although traditional PL and democracy is a laughable concept.

@Tom care to provide some example countries?

Sounds like the author needs to get with the times… scare mongering at its best…

Thank you for your valuable and substantive judgement. Would have been better had you quoted the New Testament though.

If I threaten suicide unless the state executes a drug dealer or murderer that threatens my family will the death penalt be introduced

@james I personal don’t vote with my wallet… I know at the end of my day what I would like to think of one of my achievements is to say I helped to defended someone’s life rather than I managed to vote in someone who put a few extra euro in my pocket.. Is not always about money, human life is much much more valuable..

@james- In fairness, I didn’t anywhere suggest FG’s slide in the polls was attributable to Abortion. I know exactly what caused that.

Bridget, most people vote with most of the emphasis on their wallet. How much they are going to have left over at the end of the month. I agree, human life is much more valuable than it being an issue of votes or money, unfortunately here we are, having this argument.
Ah now Vincent, the article and your initial comment pretty much allocates the building and downing of FG to their stance on termination. Neither of ye said it, but that’s pretty much the sum total of what was said.

Look up http://www.numberofabortions.com and http://www.womenhurt.ie before you make stupid comments!

@james- many thanks for explaining to me what I meant. Not sure how I get through life without you! People vote on a range of issues to which they attach different weights. I simply said the Abortion issue influenced a significant number of voters. It does. As does the economy and any number of other issues. That you interpreted my words as you did, does suggest a certain bias on your part.

@Tom…… So some example countries??? I notice you rarely respond to questions but make lots of “grandiose” statements!

Them crazy wimmins, eh? Shame they closed them laundries down!

I’m sorry you suffered so much…. I agree with everything you say…

And people ‘thumbed down’ this comment?
Emer, that testimony is powerful. Like Bridget, I agree with everything that you say; and, although I know it won’t change the past, I’m so sorry that you have suffered so greatly. Thank you for your thoughtful comment. God bless…

Emer, -
just to say, – like the other commenters below, – I found your testimony very moving & powerful.
Thank you for your courage.