^ can’t put it any better than that

Since the first day the statement came out that the money we owe is to German banks I have asked for proof. Even the economists who initially said it haven’t given me any proof for it. Just because we keep repeating something doesn’t make it true.
The German ambassador was asked about this on Today Fm a couple of weeks ago. http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/mediamanager/todayfm/audio/german_panel_210212.mp3
It’s very hard to disagree with what he says. At 5:28 roughly. He says… “It would be a lot cheaper for us actually… if bailing out German banks were really what we were after, it would be a lot cheaper for Germany to do that directly rather that via Dublin and bailing out the Irish economy…”.

@Gary
The German Taxpayer doesnt want to pay the German Banks for their incompetent lending policies. Whats the point of the Irish if its not to take them for fools. Better to uspet the neighbours than cause a row in your own house.

So you’re saying they’d rather give us money than their own banks? Really? They have already bailed out their banks so I fail to see what they just couldn’t keep doing that and save themselves money.

Brian why would you ask such a daft question as “Are our politicians not up to it?” – quite obviously they are not. They have been proving THAT for decades.

They are in power because the People keep voting for the same old parties – how in the name of GOD did Fianna Fail get a single vote in the last election? Because the People dont care aboout corruption or mismanagement or negligence or stupidity – “My Father is a Fianna Fail man and so am I”

The same goes for FG and Lab.

As for voting NO and showing we can stand on our own two feet – as the last few years and this very referendum have shown we CANNOT stand on our two feet.

Just look at the amount of People without a bulls notion what the Treaty is actually about telling all and sundry to Vote Yes/No – Id say about 1% of them have actually read the damn thing.

You dont put the Lunatics in charge of the asylum.

I was trying to pose a semi rhetorical question there Felix both to the electorate and the Government. I don’t think it was such a daft question as you quite kindly answered it in full and hit the nail on the head. Hopefully the rest of the electorate will read your answer and learn from it. I am a floating voter and vote for people on merit or policy but not because of historical family voting patterns. This has been the bane of the Irish since the foundation of the State where people follow blindly their fearless party leaders like a bunch of lemmings without even a cursory questioning of party policy for fear that they would be seen as disloyal.

I believe that we can stand on our own two feet but it is going to take maturity and courage that I fear may be wanting in the electorate. As you can see on the Journal in threads relating to this issue there are small minded individuals that focus on attacking political parties rather than engaging in an adult debate on an issue of vital national interest. This is mirrored at a national level by the various parties behaving like school children looking out for themselves and their own popularity rather than focusing on their elected jobs and doing their best for the country. We can make the Fiscal Treaty work but within our own remit and under our terms. We don’t need Europe to tell us how to do things, we know what has to be done. What we need is someone who will actually be a Leader in action rather than name and an electorate that will stand firm against the bullying of Europe and Merkozy as well as the scare tactics of the YES voter’s.

(Now that I’ve put that in writing and read over it, I realize that we are well and truly screwed!)

Felix, I agree with Ann that the precautionary principle should apply when amending our constitution. This is not ordinary legislation. It is too important a document to change on a whim.

For my part I am extremely reluctant to vote yes to amend the constitution with less than a 100% (maybe 98%) certainty that it is the right thing to do. Any less certainty than that, and I believe we’re better leaving the constitution the way it is.

How is it idle? It’s a fact! If we are not part of a stability pact how can we expect to draw from EU stability funds?

People need to educate themselves as to the facts this referendum and not get caught up in confusing side issues.

I wonder have you heard of this organisation called the IMF? We are still members, and nothing precludes us applying to them for future funds. They are also likelier to be open to changing our promissory note terms. Iceland has already returned to the bond markets after a successful IMF alone bailout.

I read somewhere that the IMF are much more accommodating towards Ireland than the ECB & Co. Anyway – note to any FG bigwigs – if u want a “yes” vote, keep that clown Leo away from the media. He has the opposite effect.

Europe will always give us money to pay itself back, do not believe the lies.

yup, sura they’d have to let us default of loans. Can’t wait for your next comment Leo.

Antie Dote… the headline is misleading, the article says “Varadkar said Ireland could not expect to be given access to the European Stability Mechanism”. So yes, of course IMF is possible, but Varadkar didn’t say otherwise.

A comment stating the bloody obvious, overblown into something its not.

This is no news…

ah winston what goverment department do you work for

I wouldn’t call him a “henchman”, Pauric. More a “handbag” !!

And the proof for this is?

It shouldn’t be a difficult question… assuming of course what is being said above is actually true.

Gary @
Here is your proof :::
http://www.thejournal.ie/gilmore-confirms-irish-push-for-%E2%80%98flexibility%E2%80%99-in-fiscal-compact-deal-351937-Feb2012/

You made several comments yourself on the article …………….

I think you should review what Unitedpeople is claiming Eileen.

Their scare tactics will not frighten me .
I will vote NO.

It’s not bull, it’s in plain black and white. No ESM for us if we don’t ratify the treaty. We could take the chance that we don’t need a second bailout but if we do, the consequences are clear

@David if we vote no and get locked out of ESM locked out of markets aswell looks like we won’t have the money to pay back the Troika.Bondholders and foreign banks not to happy,huh?

Think you missed Brian’s point. They already swore blind that there would be no second bailout, but now say there right be. They are not just incompetent, they are intentionally traitorous. Somebody should ask this traitorous scumbag what he stands to gain out of selling our sovereignty. Some day eventually these bastards will pay dearly for what they are trying to do. If Michael Collins were here they would probably be hanging by now. How fortunate they are that the irish have forgotten their roots, but I believe its in our genes and this may very well end in tears.

The scare mongering by this minister is blatant and unfair.
……..We wont need a second bailout………
……….If we need another bailout ……..Make up your minds boys , we do or we don’t…

…Not another cent……
|Jan 25th 2012…. €1,250,000,000.
Veradkar ,You can not be trusted,
Vote NO , Stand up and be counted Don’t be scared .

No Norman, we won’t have money to pay our public service salaries and social welfare payments.

Norman, who’s going to pay for public sector provisions? Are we going to see foreign direct investment if we buck the Market? Where is the money to run the state going to come from?

Let’s get real! We’re not living in isolated paradise people!

Good grief. The comments made here are quite extraordinary. Why is it that so few of you can differentiate between political spin and cold hard facts?

Political Spin: We wont need another bailout.
Fact: We just dont know. The Irish economy is extremely fragile, the markets are extremely nervous and while we sincerely hope we wont need another bailout, there is a distinct possibility that we MIGHT.

On the face of it there seems to be little wrong with the Treaty. All it says is “Live within your means!” – given what the European economy is going through this can hardly be a bad thing.

The NO campaign assumes entirely that the money to pay our overpaid public service, our ridiculous pensions, increments to Croke Park, the outrageous Social Welfare system – NONE of which we can afford – will keep on coming from Europe regardless of how we vote. What are they basing this on?

Secondly the NO campaign keeps on saying “No to Austerity!!” – austerity is a given whether we vote Yes or No. We are spending money far far beyond our means and asking others to pay the shortfall. Austerity wont stop with a NO vote you may be damn sure of that.

Good Grief Felix,

we’re asking others to pay for our shortfall?

No Felix baby, we’re not.
It is/or will be a loan,
which yes,
we pay it ALL back plus INTEREST.

U think they will do this out of the goodness of their hearts……
no hope for some people

There you go again Eileen
No No No
is all you can say
What is the al;ternative if we do say NO – you still havent said.
Saying stand up and be counted, and dont be scared a lot
Is Not A Solution
(and dont try and fob me off by saying ‘Im aggressive again)

Good grief. :) Why is it that there are some people who just will not take a hint …
I will vote no , again and again and again and as many other times as this government want me to vote.
It is quite extraodrinary to think that there are people ,who actually believe that they are the only ones with
the only answers ! They chose to ignore other people’s comments or suggestions and continue ask the same questions over and over and over and over and over ,,,oops sorry I was being lulled to sleep ! By the way Felix ,we are not thick .We know there is no way around austerity now ,so we must plough through it and we will. But we will not be bailing out dead banks or filling crooked bankers and or other crooked people’s pockets . I will repeat this again so you wont have to ask me again…we are not thick .We know there is no way around austerity now ,so we must plough through it and we will. But we will not be bailing out dead banks or filling crooked bankers and or other crooked people’s pockets .
Then there is Dave Harris ? Who just insults me at every opportunity and I will continue to ignore.

I have not insulted you Eileen, just asked you a question.
A question you havent answered.

There´s never any answer Dave. When you point out that 2 out of every 5 euro the government spends on PS pay, social welfare and pensions is from troika borrowing then they just run away when you ask how that money is replaced in a manner that avoids “austerity”.

Neil
I answered you below your comment down further :) :)

Eh Joseph – we are ABSOLUTELY asking other to pay for our shortfall. We spend more than we take in. Predominantly on the Public Service and Social Welfare.

We cannot afford it yet we refuse to cut it – so someone has to loan us the money so that we CAN pay for it.

Its not such a complicated issue Joseph – we will NEVER get out of debt if we dont start bringing in more than we are spending. But we’re not willing to do that – NO to austerity you all scream. So no budget cuts, no pension cuts, no wage cuts, no social welfare cuts and so on.

We cannot afford it. Its that simple. We have to borrow. Now what if they decide to stop lending? Or at least stop lending in those quantities?

@ Eileen:

This is hilarious Eileen. You WONT bail out the banks? Really? Is it up to you? Because as far as I can see we’ve been bailing out the banks since the beginning and not one word from anyone has stopped it.

Voting NO isnt going to stop it.

Why dont you come and live in the real world where the ACTUAL ramifications of a vote should be considered rather than your empty rhetoric?

FG said they wouldnt put more money into the banks then they went ahead and continued FF policies. Did you ever consider that there might be a reason they changed their tune? Like that they had no choice or maybe it is ACTUALLY the safest and surest way forward?

Your NO vote isnt going to change a damn thing about the banks Eileen. That ship has sailed – and she sailed long ago. So why not actually consider what your NO vote might do to the country….seeing as your intended consequence is pure fantasy.

we’re asking them to pay???

So, we don’t have to pay them back???
with INTEREST???

on yer bike felix

I suspect your only cause for concern re. ramications
is based purely on how it will affect your personal finances.

It may have escaped ur attention,
but there is a sizeable proportion of people in eire
who are simply surviving at this point.
Yes, just surviving.
So, how much worse could it get for them, eh?

what more can they be ‘frightened’ with?

Joseph
Well said .
These guys have no sense of morality and
appear only to want what is best for them
personally. They are not looking at the bigger
picture or at the genuine suffering that is happening
in our society.

How Joseph does a NO vote mean we stop borrowing?

Explain that Please. If we vote Yes – we will have to borrow to keep our country going. If we vote NO – the same thing happens. Either way, we have to borrow. To pay for things we agreed to give when the going was good which we simply cannot afford now.

How this will affect my finances is neither here nor there. This is far bigger than my personal issues.

I find it extremely typical of people like you – contrarians with no real justifcation for their views other than a vague sense that the big guys are screwing the little guys – that you assume what my motives are and then peddle them as fact.

It has not escaped my attention that some people are only surviving. Sre you suggesting that a NO vote will help these people? How pray tell? What does a NO vote give us that will save the poor, those who cannot afford their mortgages and those on hosiptal trollies?

How does a NO vote solve any of these issues?

If voting NO meant that the countries financial issues were solved then I would be the first to tick that box – but it wont. In fact it could make things a damn site worse.

But no one on the NO side seems aboe to tell me why this Treaty is a bad thing. No one anywhere.

Good for them…

All based on what? Have they read the Treaty? The wording of the proposed referendum?

Yes read the treaty,
No to knowing whats in the proposed referendum.

I will be voting NO
on the basis that I do not want any ‘more’
of our good friends in the EU.

Ok Joseph – and how to you propose we pay all of our gloriously over paid civil servants, politicians and benefit recipients without EU money?

I’ll entertain you on this.
You are of course presenting the worst case scenario,
u do know that don’t you?

If we ‘fall’ the ramifications for europe would be huge,
will they allow that? I don’t think so, course maybe they will.

if they do,
we will have to deal with living within our means
straight away. Of course, the socialized banking debts
would be gone, thats on the plus side.
The negative side is we take an unmerciful kick
to the balls and we get our house in order pronto.

The markets have no memory. We would be back
in the bond markets sooner than u might think. we would be more
attractive to them without this ludicrous banking debt
on our national books.

If the EU does loan us the money and allows us to fall,
well that threat that they are using should be enough
for any reasonable person to wake up to
this bullshit idea of a europe of equals based on respect.

Should have read
“If the EU doesn’t loan us the money and allows us to fall”

Look at the alternative,
minimum a decade of being slowly bled dry.

OK Joseph –

Heres how it might go:

1. We vote NO and Europe shrugs its shoulders and says “Who Cares? We dont need them”
The treaty is ratified without us and things go on as they are. The EU keeps lending the money. The government continues to insist that our debts be paid in full and on time and austerity continues at its current rate. No end to austerity – no end to bailing out banks.

2. We Vote NO and the EU says “The hell with you then, no more money for the Irish”. The Irish are officially broke and have to try and source money from somewhere else. The resultant crisis could arguably bring down the Euro entirely. Croke Park is thrown straight on the fire. Pensions are slashed. Wages slashed. Unemployment soars and emmigration explodes. MASSIVE austerity on a terrifying scale. A fairly unlikely scenario I would think as EU probably wont allow the Euro to collapse.

3. We Vote NO and the EU says “Fine – we will continue to lend – but at a greatly reduced level. Cut your cloth to suit your measure” – significant austerity increases as we no longer have the budgetary wiggle room. Pensions, social welfare, educational budgets all cut significantly. People truly suffering on a much wider scale.

The third scenario is what I fear we risk with a NO vote. The first however is YOUR best case scenario.

No matter what way it breaks there is no way out of the austerity with a NO vote on this.

Wages were sharply cut in Iceland. If that happened here then we´d have a much smaller budget deficit (PS would be cheaper) and higher growth as Irish labour would be cheaper.

But everyone promoting that Ireland do an Iceland keeps quiet about that.

At least we would not be bailing out crooks .and swindlers and dead banks .
we would be working for our selves….

Eileen, then be open that your “plan” is for extreme austerity, not an alternative to austerity as you try to make out. PS pay and SW payments will be havily slashed overnight.

If you´re open about that, and people in the PS and on SW are okay with giving it a go in the hopes that things will be better in future years then fine, it´s something we should consider seriously.

It´s people bluffing that we can stop borrowing and immediatley its 2007 again that pìss me off. If people have plans to propose which are honest about all the consequences then I´m open to persuasion.

How exactly did Iceland bend the EU over and tear them anything?
Currently Iceland has 9 times the unemployment they had before their bust. Yeah let’s all follow them.

Neil is any of our ‘ bailout’ money actually going to pay sw ps etc. I mean really actually? Or is it actually making its way down internet cables landing in some computer in ireland and the making its way straight out to pay the interest on our debts? Because so far the actual living breathing people of this country have not benefitted in any way shape or form. You say that opting out would be catastrophic, how? What if its not? I agree that we would have a shortfall in the short term but there is absolutely nothing to say we wouldn’t or couldnt bounce back. We are a very resilient country. What if greece leave/are pushed out if the euro? What if they have an immediate period of adjustment but then begin to recover after say three years? Would we prefer to be signed up to the fiscal treaty and imposed indefinite austerity or would ireland, portugal and spain finally see the writing on the wall. This treaty throws up more questions than answers. I would appreciate it if our government actually dealt openly and honestly with the questions, the pros and the cons, rather than try to scare us into voting yes with eu led propaganda.

The Troika give us money to fund our deficit, then give us extra money which goes on our national debt to pay bondholders etc. So we’re still spending around 15 billion more than we have even if we refuse to pay anything else.

correction. Icelandic wages did not fall in local terms, the value of their currency fell, which devalued their wages in international terms. But as their economy improved, their currency has appreciated, bringing their wages back up again.

@ Neil – as pointed out on the six1 news this evening Icelands unemployment my well be 9 times higher now than it was before their big band but it still only half the level of unemployment that exists here. There is no such thing as having no options, there are always options.

That should read big bang and not big band

@Ann Reddin. Iceland’s unemployment rate is indeed 9 times what is what is was before their bust. And also it is half the rate it is here. But let’s have like for like. Our rate is 3-4 times higher, compared to 9 times. Before our bust our unemployment rate was 5-6 times higher than there’s, now it’s only twice as much. Also there are only 340,000 people in Iceland, and there are over 4.5 million in Ireland – over thirteen times less than we have. When you compare like for like the situation in Iceland is not something to be applauded.

Iceland are taking the people responsible to court. That IS to be applauded. That is how seriously they are taking the mistakes made.

And the comments on the Journal every day prove him to be right about that.

We can’t be thrown out of the Euro ot also seems to becomeing clearer that the IMF actually want to help the economy whereas Europe seems intent on punishing and making an example of us to keep other countries in line.

Spot on, Norman.

So you don’t actually know but you’re voting No anyway?

If that is true, it’s Phil Hogan’s doing and not Leo’s.

Of course it will go up. They made an incentive to buy a new car – cheap tax, now they are losing money on motor tax so the tax based on CO2 will have to be increased.

Making a protest vote which could easily bite you in the ass is pretty foolish IMO. There is a general election in a few short years if you want rid of FG and Lab.

some people gary don’t have a few ‘short’ years

Does it always have to be exaggeration?

Me neither Frankie F :)

You just answered your own question Frankie.
It was a calculated move by Merkel that time when she publicly stated that Ireland would find it hard to pay back these debts thus forcing us from the markets and into the grip of the troika, this was a devious move by her to protect the euro and German taxpayers yet our politicians still refer to her and others and “our partners”…some partners.

The government doesn’t expect to need a second bailout. Let’s say it’s 95% sure of that. It would seem a little foolish to opt out of this agreement in case of that 5% chance.

OK William that’s a fair point so lets take it a little further. If you are buying an insurance policy do you go to the first insurance company that you see or do you shop around? Do you go to your usual insurance company that seeks to impose restrictive conditions on you and tie you into dealing with them for the rest of your life or do you leave your options open to deal with other companies.

So what about the many people online scaremongering for a No vote every single day. Do they make you want to vote Yes?

Gary was being ironic a former leader of ours was famous for that saying, when really it was in his interest

Tom the scary thing is many people are actually saying if the Government says something they’ll do the opposite. Hopefully the government never tells them they shouldn’t jump off a cliff.

Gary,
take a few deep breaths son…
hold my hand, it’ll be ok :-)

Oh don’t worry I’ve read around it. In my opinion it serves a select few European countries and not Ireland. Everyone should make up their own mind.

Tom maybe you can explain how it serves a select few countries?

Do the down votes tell me I asked a difficult question? :)

I’m sure the down votes can tell you whatever you want them to Gary.

Keith, Is it my new haircut?
I asked a simple question above, one which should in theory be easy to answer. I wasn’t expecting an answer though as there’s nothing in the Fiscal Compact that “serves a select few European countries and not Ireland”. Anyone who reads it can see that. I was expecting a load of down votes and no proof for the original claim as that’s the normal form in here, and it’s exactly what I got.

No, I think you get them Gary, because you only ever seem to hear what you want to hear, you ignore everything that you don’t want to hear, as do most of the pro austerity, pro government-at-all-costs posters do, and God forbid if we choose to disagree we’re all sinn feiners.

Interestingly I don’t ever recall being pro-austerity or pro-government. I’m anti people who spout bull, I’m anti people who make blatantly untrue claims, I’m anti hyperbole and exaggeration and I’m anti simplistic solutions that won’t work as promised. We *are* going to have more austerity and more taxes. No one is going to like it but many of us realise there is no way to stop it.
You can claim for example that I “only ever seem to hear what you want to hear”. Yet I constantly *ask* people to support the claims they make, I can safely say that 95% of the time they fail to do that. I really am willing to change my opinion and often have, it just rarely happens in the Journal.

Nailed it on the head Keith. Gary looks for proof and when he gets it he’s all quite or twists his original question. Proof?. Gary you asked in another post about German banks being owed money. True? Yes… I posted a link to a list of Anglo Bondholders who between them are owed 4bn. You then replied that there were no Irish banks / hedge funds on that list.. That wasn’t what you asked for.. And in an earlier post in this thread you claim you want proof that German banks are owed money and that nobody proved it. Well I gave you a link to a list days ago. You certainly have a short memory, why don’t you repost the link here for all to see?

“the scary thing is many people are actually saying if the Government says something they’ll do the opposite”
…..Gary, you seem to always forget the ones who do exactly as the government tells them, there is an awful lot of people who will vote yes because their allegiance lies with FG/FF.Labour (delete where applicable) and probably have no clue as to what this treaty entails but they’ll still rehash the governments threats/scare tactics.
They are the people who scare me.

@Aldo Sevli. I asked for an *accurate* list. I’d love to see an accurate complete list. The one you supplied is not accurate, nor does it have all the bondholders on it. It is a very very selective list, which makes me wonder about the agenda of those who complied it. Have I cleared that up for you?

On the German banks point… (I posted this above)
Since the first day the statement came out that the money we owe is to German banks I have asked for proof. Even the economists who initially said it haven’t given me any proof for it. Just because we keep repeating something doesn’t make it true.
The German ambassador was asked about this on Today Fm a couple of weeks ago. http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/mediamanager/todayfm/audio/german_panel_210212.mp3
It’s very hard to disagree with what he says. At 5:28 roughly. He says… “It would be a lot cheaper for us actually… if bailing out German banks were really what we were after, it would be a lot cheaper for Germany to do that directly rather that via Dublin and bailing out the Irish economy…”. – Makes logical sense doesn’t it?

Dermot. The government are not covering themselves in glory with how they are dealing with this fiscal compact. I don’t like what they are doing. But what is actually far worse is the many many people who are online scaremongering about it.
What’s interesting is you seem to hold the government to a completely different standard to those online. If the government says almost anything you call it scaremongering but I haven’t seen you say one word about all the obvious scaremonger from others. Double standards, no?

So once he says something contrary to the general consensus he’s automatically right?
If it would be so cheap for them to bail out their own banks why doesn’t he propose it to Merkel and the ECB, how comes this was never suggested before?

For the record, I believe Public Sector Pay and Social Welfare costs should be brought in to line within the next five to ten years. I also think that if 10% of people own 90% of the wealth then we would be best placed targeting them more directly for taxing as that is where the money lies. I also think there should be a significant write down on what Ireland owes. I think the word Bailout is wrong, as it is a loan with interest, nobody is bailing us out. First priority should be signifacnt write down of money owed.

On the contrary Gary, I have no political allegiance to help sway my decision, i’m voting on my own initiative.
i know several several people, family included who are FG and I have listened to them spin the tales to my mother about her having to give up her widows pension if we vote no……???? if that’s not scare tactics then what is?
I have asked the same people to explain why they are voting yes and apart from the usual kicked out of the EU nonsense they can offer very little to convince me to change my belief, they freely admit that they will vote yes because they are FG members and my brother in law is a FG Councillor – he too admits he will vote yes because that’s what he has been told to do.
I’m not adding any scare stories, people generally make up their own minds and austerity seems to be the biggest argument for both sides, austerity – Yes, austerity – No.

@Dermot. It has nothing to be with general consensus and everything to do with what can be proven and what is logical. No one has proven we are paying back German banks, even the people who initially claimed it. That should make anyone suspicious of the claim. Secondly we have the German ambassador using logic… it obviously would be cheaper for them to just give their banks the money. Have a listen to what he says, it’s only about 6-7 mins long. http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/mediamanager/todayfm/audio/german_panel_210212.mp3
@Keith. Since most of our super rich have been given a hiding in the recession just what percentage of people actually own what now? Genuine question. Ireland has a very progressive tax system already and if anything the lower paid pay less tax then they would in almost any other country. http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/27/are-irish-workers-undertaxed/
@Dermot again. I think you should reread what I said I didn’t say anything about you having a political affiliation. I said “you seem to hold the government to a completely different standard to those online”. You consistently criticise the government for scaremongering but you never say that about any of the many people scaremongering online. It’s simple double standards. Honestly Dermot if some of the loons who’ve been posting online were agreeing with me I’d be very worried about what I believe.

Have read it and that is why i’m voting no.

Aidan K
Thank you too.
( I should have gone to college, then I could speak my beliefs with this kind of clarity )
I have read the treaty and understood it’s importance ,but you have explained it as I could not .
Thanks :)

@ Aidan I have read the document also. I did not see a SINGLE article which suggests that the annual budget will be forwarded to the ECJ for approval. That is not a Courts role. How could they possibly be qualified or have the time/manpower to evaluate each Contracting States annual budgets?

I also did not see a single article indicating that the ECJ could make recommendations as to how the Budget would be “made right” as you suggest. That is not within the function or competency of the ECJ.

Now I am either reading an incorrect document or one that is out of date or you and I are reading the same document and you are grossely mistaken.

Do you have a source which establishes such a dramatic change of function for the ECJ?

@ Aidan:

Aidan I just double checked with the Irish Times site. This is a link to the Treaty:
http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/fiscal-compact/index.pdf

According to this document – none of what you have suggested is remotely accurate. According to this document (which I assume to be the correct one) the ECJ will have no such role, annual budgets will not be sent to that body and they will not have any jurisidction to suggest that we raise our Corporate Tax Rate to 18% – that is pure nonsense.

@ Eileen
As you have lauded Aidans ridiculous analysis of the Treaty I can only take it as further incontrovertible proof Eileen that you have not read the Treaty or alternatively that you have read it and simply do not understand it.

If you havent read it or dont understand it why the hell dont you just ask someone who does?

It might be better if you show where he was wrong, rather than accuse him of something I’ll safely assume you have no proof for.

Hi Mike I read your comments and its still all double dutch to me,PS You should get on the Vincent Browne show and confuse him more.

Frankie Faldo
Mike’s posts are great .
He knows his stuff and is much more able to explain this to us all.
I like Mike’s posts and agree with him 100% :)
It took me a bit of time to understand all he is saying , but he is saying it exactly as I feel it .
Thanks Mike .
Trust him Frankie he is a good guy .

Good grief.

It seems clear that Mike Hall is advocating leaving the Euro. Aside from the fact that there is no straight forward way of doing this (without also leaving the EU under Art 50 of the Lisbon Treaty) so far as I am aware, the ramifications for Ireland would be enormous. Insane levels of inflation would be the starting point. Extremely expensive commodities and we’d still be broke.

Mr. Hall asserts that we can be part of the EU without being part of the Euro – that may have been true the other way around but there is no built in mechanism to do the reverse so far as I am aware.

His assertion that “the EU authorities dont want to show that an exit is both possible and beneficial” – is completely unsupported by anything like fact and smacks of anti-european consipracy theory.

I see no evidence that our leaders have “sold us out” – what benefit accrues to them by doing so? How do Kenny et al gain from destroying Ireland?

As for the suggestion that foreign multinationals wont flee the country because “a different currency makes no odds” – this implies that the only consideration is the tye of currency itself. Would massive inflation, an insecure financial system and the risk of extremely expensive borrowing not deter foreign multinationals?

Mike’s post is, for the most part, pure conjecture from the viewpoint of an anti-european. There is little of substance there and even less about the ramifications of this referendum. Its simply another diatribe about how Europe has screwed us.

Well whether you think they have or they havent its done now and the only way forward is how best to repair the damage.

In laymans terms – the dog dirt is on our shoe and no amount of ranting about careless dog owners will retrace our steps and allow us to avoid walking in it in the first place. Its there, it stinks but the only thing to do is decide how best to clean it off.

so felix
“Well whether you think they have or they havent its done now and the only way forward is how best to repair the damage.
In laymans terms – the dog dirt is on our shoe and no amount of ranting about careless dog owners will retrace our steps and allow us to avoid walking in it in the first place. Its there, it stinks but the only thing to do is decide how best to clean it off.”

ur saying that we shouldn’t examine how this happened??
even to see if we have maybe been screwed??
we should just clean the dog shit off our shoes
and look forward??

NONSENSE. and u are a lawyer or barrister or something?
Is this how you would deal with a client if they cake to you?

“Listen Bud, shit happened to you. True.
But its no use looking at how and why it happened,
just, ya know, get on with ur life….LOOK FORWARD”

Please post ur real name and the business
u work for or own so that i make sure
if i have any legal matters that i steer well clear, thanks :-)

No Joseph Im saying its not terribly relevant to this Referendum.

If you want to keep banging on about how we’ve been screwed then do so. But its not going to help you one little bit nor is it going to help this country get back on its feet. Nor am I terribly convinced that we have been “screwed”.

As for my being a barrister – I dont dwell on how people got INTO the mess they are in, my job is how best to
help them GET OUT OF IT. I also rarely call clients “Bud”.

You like to sit and whinge that everyone is against you and that youve been screwed and its just not fair and moan whinge whine and gripe. It wont do you much good though.

felix,
ur one crazy dude,

u don’t think its important to ask a client how they
got into the shit??
u don’t think there may be some possibility that
how they got into the shit, by their own doing or
by others, might be pertinent to solving their distress??
even in terms of possible compensation,
or redress of wrongdoing against ur client???

for the birds….

@ Felix Cassidy

You seem to be saying let’s just roll over & trust the Eurozone authorities, the Euro banking elite, political leaders here & in the EU – carte blanche, carry on, good job. Well, bit ‘shit on the shoe’, but no worries, it’s happened, move on.

Well, excuse me, but hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens cannot move on. They have no job & will not have one & be ‘moving on’ for the foreseeable future. Hundreds of thousands more will be struggling with bloated mortgages, falling incomes & decimated health & other vital public services. Typically for the most needy & vulnerable, by stealth, bit by bit, weakest first. Again, for the foreseeable future, likely a decade at least & getting worse as we go.

I think we may deduce that ‘needy & vulnerable’ is +not+ your situation. Perhaps you are a politician or member of the main parties? They all seem to think this state of affairs is perfectly ok, judging by actions of course, not the weasel words of scaremongering or some pretence of empathy.

Barely 8 years born & the the Euro shared currency is in what has been widely considered, across the world, a potentially existential crisis. Not just my opinion but that of many economists & commentators the world over.

Yet you propose no examination, no accountability, no consideration of how matters could be improved. If you are not a main party politician, then I suggest you should be – you clearly have a natural vocation.

Let’s take your comments one at a time.

I am not anti-european. Quite the opposite. But, to repeat what I’ve said before, the Euro currency union is a different & novel aspect of the European project. A number of ful EU member countries did not join & likely will not. As things stand that seems a wise choice. I think the Euro could work well, but not with it’s present structure. Given the events & prospects of ongoing masssive economic damage to ourselves & other Euro countries, I happen to think my (& others’) criticisms are valid. I began by studying the work of economists who said it was flawed from the get go. They have been proved right.

Senior politicians in Germany & elsewhere, as well as other authorities have already proposed that Euro exit is possible & even inevitable for Greece – without EU exit. The abject failure of the currency union makes a prime facie case to invalidate the existing treaty articles on this matter. We are not the only EU/Euro member in this situation.

No ‘conspiracy’ is required among the political, banking & corporate elites. They share an economic ideology whereby there is no crisis for them personally. They are all members, or expect to be thru’ their careers, of the top few percent club in personal wealth – defined as High & Ultra High Net Worth Individuals. This group after a brief ‘paper’ only loss on shares etc. in 2008, are still increasing their wealth (even after their lavish lifestyle expenses) by some 5% per annum (report by Merrill Lynch & Citigroup).

There is no ‘crisis’ for this group, essentially running the show, now or in prospect. Why would they want the hassle of changing anything, it works for them, just as things are?

Even the IMF considers that Ireland’s taking on the huge losses of reckless EU banking gambles was unjust by any moral standard. Many other serious commentators agree. In our leaders’ continuing aquiescence, having ‘promised’ a more robust approach prior to rquesting our vote in the last election, yes, ‘sold us out’ is a reasonable criticism in my view. They continue in the same vein.

Our financial system, here and in the wider Eurozone remains ‘insecure’. This is why, in an unprecedented step the ECB just ‘created’ €1,000 billion in new money to prop up banks’ liquidity (read – ‘solvency’) – the ‘LTRO’. If we left the Euro (my 2nd choice, note), being +issuers+ of our own new ‘punt’, we have no need to ‘borrow’ from anyone. A properly managed exit (not rocket science) would carry little ‘inflation’ risk. And far less so if we do it sooner rather than after another 5 years of economic destruction. A short period of disruption is to be expected. There are economic advisers (yes, there some who know what they’re doing) we could call upon to help such a process.

The benefit is that we could easily be back to near full employment & prosperity within as little as 3 years. MMT economics with a Job Guarantee program shows how. (A couple of weeks ago, over 2,000 people attended a whole weekend dedicated to teaching MMT in Rimini, Italy. They had to hire a sports stadium. More and more people who study it can see that it works & offers a real alternative to economics for the sole benefit of a few.)

But, equally MMT could be applied to the Euro structure. I would prefer this, if possible. But sharing a currency needs real partnership & solidarity – no ‘mercantilist’ race to the bottom, no one left behind. MMT is agnostic on the relative size of the public sector, rather it provides a transparent & correctly understood framework for the business of democracy to decide. (The Job Guarantee is +not+ part of the public sector – it’s separate.)

We, ordinary citizens, need some means of demanding the full, open public debate on what has failed, with no prospect of resolution, & what can be done to reform the Euro monetary & banking system.

This referendum is the only option we have. The proposal is a set of rules & further centralisation of undemocratic power that has little or no relevance to the crisis that has occurred (with the minor exception of Greece).

Vote NO.

Ahhhh that explains a lot. Felix, being a barrister, means that he doesnt live in the real world like the rest of us plebs. I dont think there is such a thing as a barrister that has to go to MABS becuase their electricity or gas is about to be disconnected. I dont believe that the children of barristers have cornflakes for breakfast dinner and tea because thats all thier parents can afford as they struggle to keep a roof over thier heads and clothes on their backs.

Dont go forgetting Felix that it was your ilk that mad millions off the back of the tax payers over the last decade thanks to the dodgey dealings of corrupt politicians and developers and entrepeneurs.

@Ann Reddin. If I take your ‘logic’ for a second… We shouldn’t believe a trained barrister about a legal document because he may get paid more than most of us. WOW, just wow.
I hope you don’t have to go to court at any stage. Because if you want to believe some of the conspiracy theories in here over what he says you’re in for a nasty landing.

So do I Frankie ,after all people give up their time to express them .

Paul Carr
You are as good as Leo with you comments !!!
What has abortion got to do with this referendum ?
John O Donoghue , resigned as Ceann Comhairle
before he was sacked and was a crooked as the rest of the best …He can f**k off too.

Eileen I’m suprised at you using language like that….but you are absolutely right…of donahue can go and f**k off. ;)

Hi Niamh
:) :) :)

I surprise myself occasionally , but Gosh and jolly hockey sticks just do not have the same ring to it any more ,or express my true feelings ….
I surprised my self when I joined the campaign against the household charge too , AND i will surprise myself even further when I join the campaign against this Fiscal/compact Treaty …. I will remain a non party campaigner as I have no other motives except fair play , honesty ,and a decent future for my kids … I do not trust this government .

I’m with you. good woman. Lets tell the lot of them to f**k off. Very goods article in the gaurdian on greece, outlines how economics is taking over politics. Gives me even more reason to vote no.

Niamh
Thanks for the tip . I shall read it later .

U are right, Niamh. Economics “is” taking over politics. That is becoming more apparent every day. As Thomas Jefferson, the 3rd U.S President, said way back in the late 1770’s – “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our civil liberties than any standing armies”. How bloody true, eh ? I haven’t made up my mind what way to vote yet & will do so towards the end. I’m inclined to vote “no” at the mo. The IMF are there & as posted above, they are much more favourable to countries than the EU is. As another contributor wrote, the EU is picking on Ireland as an example to others not to step out of line – or else. So much for a Europe of equals. The sooner Merkozy go, the better. Yes – we do need to get our finances in order & cut our cloth to fit our measure. Don’t bully us or any other EU country to achieve that.

Looks like sarkozy is going to lose the election to francois hollande (left wing/socialist)…and guess what platform hollande is standing on??? Renegotiating the fiscal compact….this is going to be a very interesting year. (oh and f**k off sarkozy too). ;)

It sure is. Did u see the puss on Sarky at the game yest ? Little pr*ck ! We are in for some interesting times indeed. Whatever one’s view, it is important that each & every one of us excercise our right to vote. That is very important & it is a right I take very seriously. Anyway – y’all have a nice day now !!

There seems to be some idea that with Sarkosy gone it’ll be better. I’m no fan of Sarkosy but be careful what you wish for as what you get may be worse in reality.

I am not saying hollande would be better, im saying that our referendum might be null and void when hollande is instated as he wants the treaty renegotiated. One thing can be said for hollande…he stands up for his people and is looking for the best deal for them. That is what I wish for gary.

I see. You opinion of politicians tends to be they are liars and just tell people whatever to get elected. But because Hollande is saying what you want to hear, he’s a man of the people. Interesting.

Really….is that what I said gary??? Because I didnt get that at all!!! Wow. Ur so cool how you can bend what people say into whatever suits urself. Its like you have magic powers.

“increasingly it looks like we won’t need a second bailout, because we’re meeting our targets” I said I’d post that in case you missed it. If FG/Lab do their job right then we won’t need a second bail out. Besides we should be focusing on living within our means and not borrowing more money to get us out of the trouble that we are in because we had to borrow money in the first place.

If we need another bailout, and there is no money coming by virtue of us saying No, then the banks collapse. If the Irish banks collapse, the Irish state is declared bankrupt and there is a default on the euro. If there is a default on the euro, the value of that currency falls and most likely triggers a set of banking collapses throughout Europe and the whole euro project is dead.

I think, if we need a second bailout we will get one.
Preferably, we let the banks go and return to the punt.

David, I don’t know why you are getting so many thumbs down for stating the facts. As unpalatable as it is, right now we need the EU to sustain this economy. The world isn’t flat and we don’t live in a vacuum. The same people arguing against the referendum are those who are suggesting that we increase public spending on services and halt the privatisation of state assets. Where do you think the money to run the state is going to come from? Taxing ‘the rich’??? There’s only so far this will go.

Our place, at present, is with Europe and we need to cement that relationship.

Very easy to be bullish and say a second bailout won’t be needed, but if it is, and we’re not in the ESM then it’ll be more expensive to get the money we need. I completely agree with living within our means, that’s why I support this treaty, it keeps countries living within their means!

“I blindly support Fine Gael” is what David really means. Luckily the thumbs here clearly show the impact of his PR campaign on their behalf…

IMF.

Has to be said, the IMF.

The IMF that are demanding cuts targeting the elderly? http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pensions-free-travel-and-medical-cards-on-imf-hitlist-3038459.html
The IMF that ordered Latvia to cut PS wages by 30%?

Don´t know where anyone got the idea that the IMF are a bunch of teddy bears who will fund massive budget deficits no questions asked. They´d actually deal with Irelands budget decit in a far more urgent fashion if they were in control.

You also have some of the ratings agencies saying we will need one aswell.

Would you point out where in the treaty does it state we will exempt ourselves from the ECB if we vote no.We will be outside ESM i accept futhermore if we cannot borrow to sevice our debt we will default possibly bringing down the whole euro project.Do you think Germany/France would allow that.

Futher to your comment,yes irish banks loaned to irish people but who loaned to irish banks to help fuel the excess and madness our politicians and other commentators acuse us of.